Using old powder, AL5

[fatelk]

I admit it, I'm cheap. I also can't stand to see something go to waste if it's still usable. I have a 3lb can of Alcan 5 I got cheap a while back, but haven't been able to find the right use for it. Data is not easy to find, and it doesn't seem to be optimum in any caliber I load for the data I can find.

From burning rate charts, it looks like it should work fine for .40S&W and 180gr cast boolits. Of course there is no data because AL5 was discontinued long before the .40 was dreamed up, but I worked up a fairly light load that seems to function and shoot OK: 6.0gr @ 850fps.

I know many will say I should just dump old stuff like this, that it's not worth messing with. Anyone else work up loads with old powder? Anyone see any real risk in working up a load from an unknown like this?

[HORNET]

That's why you buy old loading manuals when you find them. I haven't played with the AL-5 that I've got yet but I'm working up a load for cast 55 grainers in my .222 using AL-7. Initial results look promising if it ever warms up. Finally ran out of AL-8 with the .22 Hornet.

[10 ga]

Back when I was a chap in the 60s AL7 and AL8 were my powders of choice for loading those flame thrower baby magnum shotshells kids love. I was about 14 and had a Lee 12 ga "hand" loader, still have it, and loaded a bunch of shells for duck hunting, well, loaded shells for all my hunting. My 13 year old cousin claimed we didn't shoot the ducks but burnt their wings off with that AL powder. A great memory. Still have 1 can of AL7 with about 3 oz of powder left. Thanks for the recollections. 10 ga

[Rocky Raab]

AL-5 compares "generally" with Unique, as you'll see if you compare your one safe load with book loads for Unique.

I have all four Alcan powders and like them very much. I'll be truly sorry when I use the last of it.

[DLCTEX]

I have and use Al 7 & 8, but it's about gone. Wish I could find more. If I had Al 5, I'd happily use it. Post the cal. and boolit you want to load and someone here will find a load for it.

[fatelk]

Thanks for the info. I'm using 6.0gr AL5 with a Lee 170 (casts at 180gr) SWC (TC), in a Glock model 22. They clock at about 850fps. I also tried 5.3gr Unique, and they clocked at about 930fps, so Unique must be a little faster I assume.

Next I think I'll try some in my .45 auto, with the 230+gr Lee TC TL boolit.

A friend told me I this powder is too old and I should dump it out, but there is no sign of any deterioration. I'm glad I'm not the only one not afraid to use old powder.:)

[Newtire]

In a 12 gauge shotgun, it was used for the 3-3/4 Dr-1-1/4 oz equivalent load. Used a heap of that stuff.

I picked up some AL-8 myself a couple years ago and it made great .44 loads. Burned clean as a whistle. However, it loaded up my 20 gauge Remington 1100 trigger group so bad that it stopped working until I blasted it out with compressed air.

[RayinNH]

The Lyman Cast Bullet Manual #3 has load data for AL-5. It's kinda spotty, but it is certainly there...Ray

[HORNET]

IIRC, data for the Alcan powders is also in Sierra #1, Speer #10 &#11, & Hornady #3 manuals . I didn't check to see which regular Lyman manuals. They were only available for a few years. Good powders, though.

[jmh54738]

In my 45ACP Molina, with the Lee 230 grain bullet, 6.4 grains of AL-5 yield 695 fps,
7.0 grains AL-5 yield 700 fps and 7.5 grains of AL-5 yield 787 fps. Extreme spreads are 18 fps
which is better than other powders tried. I also use AL-5 in the 9mm luger and Largo and
32-20. Alcan powders, made by Bofors, are excellent, in my humble opinion.
I am yet using HI-SKOR single base powder from the 1960s which later became
HI-SKOR 700X double base powder.
I was watching a shooter at my club shooting a 44 mag, producing no muzzle flash, but a
considerable amount of smoke. He was using AL-8. The smoke could be from the bullet lube.

[Gunfixer]

Speer #8 lists 8.0 gr AL-5 with a 225gr cast in a 45acp as max. Estimated velocity 882 fps.

[fatelk]

Thank you. That definitely gives me somewhere to start.

I thought about using it in my .38 special, but my load of 4gr of #2 works well.

I used to use Accurate #2 in my .45 as well, when I used the Lee 230 RN, but I got a six cavity 230 TC, and it does seem to load different. It seems to be at higher pressure if I get it close to the old load, I assume because it has to be seated deeper? I'm a little scared to load it up to the same velocity as the old boolit.

[Hank10]

I still have several of the old 3 lb. cans of AL5 and several of the small cans. The real old stuff has red particles in it, later alcan changed it to white particles but if it smells OK and doesn't have any rust in it it's good to go. I load .38s, .44s and 45 C with it, also 20 ga. shotgun. excellent powder.
H10

[BerdanIII]

AL-5 DATA

Speer #6

.38 Special - Western case - CCI 500
146-gr Speer .357-146-HP - 6.0 to 8.0 - 824 to 1079 fps
160-gr Speer .357-160-SP - 6.0 to 7.0 - 870 to 994

.357 Magnum - Western case - CCI 550
146-gr Speer .357-146-HP - 9.5 to 10.5 - 1167 fps to 1396 fps
160-gr Speer .357-160-SP - 9.0 to 10.0 - 1185 to 1267

Speer #8

.380 ACP - WW case - CCI 500
90-gr JHP - 5.0 to 5.5 - 951 to 1014 fps
95-gr cast RN - 4.7 to 5.0 - 900 to 1003

9mm Luger - WRA case - CCI 550
125-gr Speer SP - 6.0 to 7.0 - 957 to 1105 fps

.38 Super - WW case - Alcan small pistol
90-gr JHP - 8.5 to 9.5 - 1407 to 1495 fps
125-gr Speer SP - 7.5 to 8.5 - 1145 to 1269

.38 Special - Speer/DWM case - CCI 500
158-gr Speer SWC or RN - 6.0 to 7.0 - 908 to 1046 fps
140-gr Speer HP - 8.0 to 9.0 - 1060 to 1212
146-gr Speer HP - 6.0 to 8.0 - 811 to 1111
160-gr Speer SP - 6.0 to 7.0 - 867 to 1000

.357 Magnum - Speer case - CCI 500
158-gr Speer SWC or RN - 9.0 to 10.0 - 1209 to 1299 fps
110-gr JHP - 10.5 to 11.5 - 1380 to 1453
125-gr Speer SP - 9.0 to 11.0 - 1145 to 1317
146-gr Speer HP - 9.0 to 11.0 - 1182 to 1250
160-gr Speer SP - 8.0 to 10.0 - 1027 to 1141

.41 Magnum - Remington case - CCI 300
210-gr case SWC - 9.0 to 10.0 - 975 to 1059
200-gr Speer HP - 10.5 to 12.5 - 1093 to 1236
220-gr Speer SP - 9.0 to 11.0 - 933 to 1115

.44 Special - WW case - CCI 300
215-gr cast SWC - 10.0 to 11.0 - 880 to 965 fps
250-gr cast SWC - 8.0 to 9.0 - 767 to 866

.44 Magnum - WW case - CCI 350
225-gr Speer HP - 12.5 to 14.5 - 1197 to 1341 fps
240-gr Speer SP - 11.0 to 13.0 - 1074 to 1238

.45 ACP - Federal case - CCI 300
225-gr cast RN - 7.5 to 8.0 - 837 to 882 fps
230-gr FMJ - 7.5 to 8.0 - 795 to 833

.45 Auto Rim - WRA case - CCI 300
240-gr cast SWC - 7.0 to 9.0 - 822 to 994 fps
200-gr Speer SP - 11.0 to 13.0 - 1040 to 1175

.45 Colt - WW case - CCI 300
200-gr Speer LSWC - 11.0 to 12.5 - 933 to 1037 fps
250-gr cast GC - 9.5 to 10.5 - 786 to 870

Hope this helps.

[fatelk]

This place is a wealth of information!

I worked up to 7.5 gr. of AL5 with the Lee 230 TC, in my Ballestor Molina. It worked great, and the little bit of breach leading I was getting with my other load went away. This is a little hotter load, and I think the bullet just wasn't sealing enough or something.

The AL5 I have has little white flakes in it. There's no sign at all of any deterioration, so I'll just go ahead and use it up.

In another thread there was a discussion about old powders and old manuals, and whether the powders have changed over the years, or testing techniques and liability concerns just caused manual publishers to weaken their listed loads.

Having used a fair amount of older powders, I'm inclined to think that they have just weakened their listed loads. Many of those old loads were probably fine in some guns and under certain conditions, but I'm always careful to work up carefully, and haven't felt the need to "hot load" anything for a very long time.

Speaking of old powders; it used to be that you could find old cans of powder at gun shows and such for cheap, and if you knew what to look for and were careful you could get a good deal. Has anyone else noticed that that doesn't seem to be the case anymore?

I was in a local shop the other day, and they had a shelf of odds and ends, looked like estate stuff that they had bought up. There was a bunch of powder cans, some new and some old. There was a couple cans of very old 4895, probably from the '60s from the can style. The price? $26 per pound:veryconfu

[DLCTEX]

I found a pound of Al 8 a few years ago in a shop in a small town. I gave $5 for it (it was marked &2.95)

[Tony65x55]

My local dealer asked me if I wanted to buy this old powder her had. Said it was in good shape but he couldn't sell it. It was AL-5 in these little 1/2 lb cans. He said I could have as much as I wanted...give $2 per can. I bought all 30 cans! Good deal!

Berdan III, thanks for the data.

[JohnH]

In another thread there was a discussion about old powders and old manuals, and whether the powders have changed over the years, or testing techniques and liability concerns just caused manual publishers to weaken their listed loads.

There are actually several methods of pressure testing. While I don't know what method they use now, the English used to use a method that measured pressure at the case head/breech juncture, rather than at a pont along the chamber wall as we do. The method yeilded very different readings from our methods, but gave useful, comparable results. They also measure pressure in tons, not PSI.

The copper crusher method is very reliable and was used for the better part of 100 years. The pizeo electric method which gives us a direct reading in PSI is prefered because that is how we rate the tensile strength of steel and other materials. It gives us data that is easy to use and is compatable with generally accepted testing methods in other related fields.

Lots of load data from the 1950's and early 1960's was developed using "seat of the pants" methods. You can find an exellent article on load development in Ken Waters "Pet Loads". But a few just loaded up and if it didn't burst their gun, published it. I would venture to say that any percieved "downloading" was more the result of standardization of pressure measuring methods and practices than anything else.

[Ron O.]

Sir i,m trying to find the loads for a 9mm using Al5 came across this power in a gun store. The owner gave it to me becauce he didn,t know any thing about it. I,m loading 90gr. heads. Also have a little AL7. Any help you can give would be a big help.

[runfiverun]

the 9mm 125 gr load shown above is where I would start...

[RoGrrr]

When I shot clays I got pounds of AL5 and 7 from Homer Clark of ALCAN while I was at the GRAND AMERICAN trapshoot. Lots of fun...
Not sure what happened to him.
I also remember that they shared the same building with Ithaca shotguns with Browning next door and FEDERAL REMINGTON and WINCHESTER a door or 2 beyond that....

[Cmm_3940]

I've a MEC shotshell charge bar chart from 1967 that lists loads using AL5,7,9 herco, etc. if anyone is interested.