Making a Push through size die

[Buckshot]

.............Some of the steps in making a Lee type Push through sizer. There are a couple photo's missing, but the operation is listed.

1) Part off 7/8" OD W-1 steel to 2.90"
2) Face off both ends and center drill
3) Drill exit side .010" larger then boolit OD
4) Turn and drill sizer portion about .015" undersize
5) Thread 7/8-14. I thread on the backside with the spindle in reverse going away from the headstock.

http://www.fototime.com/5021F858C13FB93/standard.jpg

6) Bore to clean up and produce a round hole about .003" undersize

http://www.fototime.com/281DC4AAE46A319/standard.jpg

7) Taper ream entry

http://www.fototime.com/8B4152A248977B0/standard.jpg

8) Hone to size

http://www.fototime.com/4B9D8C3C33E01DF/standard.jpg

9) Knurl

http://www.fototime.com/4C98E10CA086E43/standard.jpg

Finished...........or:

http://www.fototime.com/F798CE10BE88337/standard.jpg

10) Turn down to fit Lee catcher cup thingamabob

11) THEN knurl!

..............Then you turn the push rod. No photo's for that :-)

.............Buckshot

[grumpy one]

I've seen you mention thread-cutting on the far side of the workpiece with the spindle (and leadscrew) running backwards before. I can see a good reason to do it - you avoid the problem I always have retracting the tool smoothly in exactly the same way at the end of each cut if I thread-cut the "normal" way (on the side of the workpiece closer to the operator). However my lathe doesn't have the cross-slide movement to put the toolpost on the far side of the workpiece - I'm a bit surprised to hear that yours can do this.

It occurs to me that it might be feasible to cut in reverse on the closer side of the workpiece, by turning the toolholder upside down and cutting the upward-moving metal. It would require a very rigid toolpost (toolposts are designed to just apply clamping force, not cutting force) but forces aren't usually very high in threadcutting because of the shallow cuts used.

Have you ever heard of this even more odd-ball method being used? And does anyone else cut on the far side in reverse, or did you invent this concept?

Geoff

[John-n-va]

My first attempt at practice threading, I mounted the tool "upside" down and threaded towards the tailstock. I was kinda afraid to run the tool towards the headstock with it moving at a good clip hehehe. Looks like you are using a boring bar on the "backside".

How do you hone the sizer. I know you can get reamers in just about any size you want but haven't seen any hones.

[John-n-va]

Forgot to ask.....On your push through sizers, how much do you allow for lead "spring back"? I need to make myself a .460 sizer and will be using both 20-1 and 30-1 alloys. I could always use the old trial and error method but thought you might be able to help.

[borderman]

This is great - I have been considering making push-thru dies as an entry project on machining equipment I do not have. Please try not to laugh, is a mini-lathe with accessories what I need for this type project? Can't figure out what step 8 (hone to size) is doing.

[BABore]

I made my push throughs from similar 7/8-14 threaded stock, but went in a little different direction. I drilled and reamed the body to accept a 5/8 dia. x 1 1/4 inch bushing. I positioned a standard RCBS die lock nut in the proper position and tightened the clamping screw down tight. I then drilled and tapped through the nut and thread rod for a #10-24 set screw to lock in the bushing. Basically made a universal body.

The 5/8 bushings are made from O-1 and drilled, reamed or bored, then polished to final size. They have a tapered lead on the entry end and back bored on the opposite end leaving about a 1/4 inch of sizing diameter. It takes about 5 seconds to change inserts without taking the body out of the press. Inserts are much faster and easier to produce and can be hardened if desired.

[BABore]

This is great - I have been considering making push-thru dies as an entry project on machining equipment I do not have. Please try not to laugh, is a mini-lathe with accessories what I need for this type project? Can't figure out what step 8 (hone to size) is doing.

He's using something called a "Flexolap" or barrel lap. The brass barrel is a changeable insert that has an adjustable size range that works on the expanding collet principle. The end of the lap, entering the sizing die, has a small screw that adjusts the diameter. Clover lapping compound is applied to the barrel and inserted in the turning sizing die to open the hole size. You start just under your reamed or bored hole size then gradually adjust the lap until you get where you want to be. By varying the clover grit size you can do fast sizing to final polishing. A complete lap runs $4 to $13 for one size. Replacement brass barrels are $1.50 to $8.

[StarMetal]

grumpy one,

I have a 71/2 x 12 mini lathe and I can take my cross slide off and reverse it to slide and thread on the opposite side of the base and cut the thread like Buckshot said. It will wind over that far but is very near it's end of travel and not solid, so I just reversed it like I mentioned. Works good.

Joe

[454PB]

I haven't done it, but I would think having the chip on the underside of the cutting tool would be very awkward. I guess I'm too used to watching the cutting action. What about the cutting oil.....how can it do it's job from the underside?

[John-n-va]

I only did it that way once. It did feel kinda awkward even to me and I'm a complete novice with a lathe. I now thread the "conventional" way toward the headstock.....I simply have to pay very close attention to my set up and progress of cut hehehe.

[BABore]

When I cut the L/R thread on a cherrying vise screw I put the cutter in the holder upside down and ran it in reverse towards the tail stock. Worked fine.

[Buckshot]

...............Grumpy one, "I've seen you mention thread-cutting on the far side of the workpiece with the spindle running backwards..............however my lathe doesn't have the cross-slide movement to put the toolpost on the far side of the workpiece - I'm a bit surprised to hear that yours can do this.

I dunno, it's just an 11" Logan. I have to run the compound 1-1/2" to the rear, then crank the cross slide back in order to have the QC toolpost on the backside. I think I could probably thread a 1-1/2 OD. This is with the compound at 30* to my right (as normal), or the handwheel at 4 o'clock assuming the far end of the cross slide is 12. I could thread a larger OD on the backside if I slapped the compound around 60* counterclockwise, pointing at about 2 o'clock then winding it out.

If you don't have a real long length to thread you can use a boring bar to reach around behind, as below:

http://www.fototime.com/44F25A73466923B/standard.jpg

Of course if there is a feature on the end, like a flange that stands away, you couldn't use the bar.

"................It occurs to me that it might be feasible to cut in reverse on the closer side of the workpiece, by turning the toolholder upside down and cutting the upward-moving metal."

Yup, you can do that. My lathe has a L00 spindle nose but folks whose lathes have a threaded spindle have to turn the tool upside down on the front in order to keep the chuck from possibly unscrewing. Actually it's a good way to do it because it pulls UP on the compound and cross slide which removes all the slack in the dovetails and actually increases their rigidity. Of course if you're using an Aloris or KDK type tool holder you have to make sure the tool block is really secure on the toolpost's dovetail.

"............... Have you ever heard of this even more odd-ball method being used? And does anyone else cut on the far side in reverse, or did you invent this concept?"

Me, invent some machining deal :-)? Heck no. But so far as turning the tool upside down, there are many who part off that way, for the previous reasons given. It increases rigidity via pulling UP on all the dovetails.

John-n-va, "................Looks like you are using a boring bar on the "backside".

In that photo the boring bar is boring the inside of the die. However in THIS post there is a photo of a boring bar I've used to thread on the backside before.

:.................. How do you hone the sizer. I know you can get reamers in just about any size you want but haven't seen any hones."

A drill bit does not make a round hole, which I'll bet you already knew, ha! Well, not round enough for precise stuff anyway. Also, the smaller the bit, the more apt it is to wander off axis. If you push it a bit too hard it also flex's and it's hard to feel what you're doing, feeding with the wheel of the tailstock. About all you can do is to watch the chips and the exposed body of the bit for bowing.

If the hole DOES wander off axis and your next step is to ream, the reamer WILL follow the hole off axis. However if your next step is to bore, you can straighten the hole. How you do it or what you use depends on the ID of the hole and it's depth. In the photo that's a 1/4" carbide bar with insert, and the smallest hole is about .280". It's also stuck out a bit farther then desireable but with light cuts (in this instance) it will clean up well.

Once that is done (I always bore after drilling if possible as just a matter of fact) you can ream or not, depending upon how much is left to go. You're right that reamers are available in most any size. Besides letter, number, fractional, or metric sizes, places like MSC carry open stock listings of usually .0003" to .0005" step increases. Yet if you can, boring makes good sense. If you want a .460" sizer that's large enough for a fairly heavy (rigid) bar, vs paying $22 for a reamer you might not use again.

"............... How do you hone the sizer?"

In the photo that's a brass barrel lap. I got a set from MSC. They're made by DME, and those are for 'through' holes. They have them for blind holes also. BaBore explained their use prety well. The brass part is double tapered on the inside and a tapered screw on the end expands them. You can use diamond paste which never breaks down and cuts until there is too much clearance to work. Or you can use a compound like Clover which DOES break down and becomes finer and finer. It also will quit cutting.

With diamond paste you expand the brass and continue. With Clover or similar you re-charge the lap and expand it if necessary.

"................On your push through sizers, how much do you allow for lead "spring back"?

I don't have or use a formula. I check periodicly with gage pins (which means you have to really clean the die body). If I want a .460" die I hone until a .459" pin 'just' won't go, meaning a .458" 'just' will. After that I'm afraid it's very humble and that means driving a slug through. For my use I use WW to bring a die to a specified size. If a customer wants an exact size for some alloy, I ask that they supply at least 4 slugs of the desired alloy.

Up until you bring it to final size, everything is pretty basic, so far as machining goes. Polishing one up to a desired diameter is the fussy and time consuming part (and the least fun).

BaBore's idea of using the inserts for one body is the hot setup!

................Buckshot

[grumpy one]

grumpy one,

I have a 71/2 x 12 mini lathe and I can take my cross slide off and reverse it to slide and thread on the opposite side of the base and cut the thread like Buckshot said. It will wind over that far but is very near it's end of travel and not solid, so I just reversed it like I mentioned. Works good.

Joe

Thanks Joe, I have only seen mini lathes from a distance, never looked closely at one. I use an ancient toolroom lathe that was looted -oops, sorry, liberated - by the allies from Germany at the end of WW II and sold by public auction, where my uncle bought it. It has at least three bullet holes in it, I guess things were tough where it came from. I learned on that lathe when I was 12, a long time ago now. The cross-slide has a long adjustable gib extending from the far side, which actually limits its travel unless you want to put the lathe an awfully long way away from the wall. I agree it is seldom a good idea to attempt precision work when you don't have maximum engagement of the slides with each other.

Aside from the question of the rigidity of the toolpost clamp, the main disadvantage of the upside-down threadcutting I suggested would be that the cutting force would be trying to lift the entire carriage off the longitudinal slide, and there might easily be some slack in that direction because all normal cutting pushes the carriage downward, so most carriages probably aren't closely adjusted in that plane. Doesn't seem like an issue for cutting small threads in a toolroom lathe, which has a pretty massive carriage, but it would be an issue on a small lathe I think.

454PB, I don't see a problem with the cutting oil, it sticks until it's wiped off by the cutting process. You'd just squirt it on wherever you do normally. I don't see that you lose anything by not being able to watch the chip form - what do you actually do as a result of what you see there?

[454PB]

454PB, I don't see a problem with the cutting oil, it sticks until it's wiped off by the cutting process. You'd just squirt it on wherever you do normally. I don't see that you lose anything by not being able to watch the chip form - what do you actually do as a result of what you see there?

As I said, I've never done it that way, so it was just a question. I've saved threading jobs on large and coarse threads by watching the chip and quickly withdrawing the cutting tool when things went wrong. I also have the habit of judging cutting depth engagement by watching the chip on the previous pass. I've done inside threading, and it takes me forever due to my timidity when I can't see the chip.

[andrew375]

I do a slight variation in that I made a sleeve with the outside machined as you described but the inside bored out to accept rcbs/lyman sizing dies. The dies are held in by friction on the o-ring and the by the gummed up lube on the outside. Works great and I don't need two dies for sizing and lubing.

To make new sizing dies I simply take one of my surplus ones, bush the hole and bore to size. The beauty of this is that if I get the hole wrong I can simply push the bush out and start again. Also it fits my lubresizers.

I don't use anything other than mild steel for my sizing dies and I've yet to see any sign of wear.

[brayhaven]

Hey Buckshot, that's a good looking mule! http://members.aol.com/brayhaven/bj.htm
I appreciate the info on the sizing dies. I have some 416 7/8 rd stock that should work OK too. Probably not quite as wear resistant as the W-1 but down here in FL I try to avoid rust whenever I can. Do the dies you make work any better than the Lee dies? Or is this for when you need an odd size?
Greg

[Buckshot]

................Greg, Yep he was a good looker and a great ride. His registered name was Tobacco Road, but we called him Toby, and I see you had one named the same. He was good sized at 15.2 and stout. We had another mule we'd gotten along with a horse trailer we bought and his name was Barney. Toby was 4 when we got him and I had him for 18 years. Barney was (supposedly) 18 when we got him and was 32 when we had to have him put down.

Toby was not a ride for a beginner really. He wasn't mean, ill tempered, or un-safe but every once in awile he might try to check you out. Barny on the other hand was a veteran of Mule Days in Bishop, Ca and had a ton of trophies for working cows. He was a very kind and gentle old guy who you could put babies on. Barney had a very refined head and was not real 'Mulish' looking.

We went on many rides with the San Bernardino County Sheriff's Posse and one of the first was to the top of San Gorgonio (11,600 ft) here in the wilderness in So. California. We'd packed him. He was carrying sodas and beer on ice. At the top of the mountain a hiker noticed me getting a beer and asked what the going price was for a cold beer. I said they belonged to the sheriff's posse but he offered $10 for 2 beers. I gave the money to the captain and the story got around.

All the way back several guys said they were going to quit their jobs, buy a mule and pack beer to the top of the mountain! In the local Big Bear newspaper they had a little article about "Barney the Beer Mule".

My wife bought a paint foal (we named him Palo de Oro) and we brought him home when he was 4 months old. All the others except Barney treated him kind of rough so we put them together in a big corral. If Palo overstepped himself or got fractious ole Barny was there with a quick nip or a body slam to set him back in his place. That ended up being being one of the easiet to get along with horses we had!

My wife had gotten a big ole Trakaener (if that's spelled right. A big warmblood). This was an arena horse. A jumper etc with no 'country or trail work to it's credit. He was every bit of 17 hands. First time out he wouldn't cross the RR tracks. Luckily Toby would pull so we dallied off my lariet and dragged him across the track. Then down in the wash he wouldn't go into the water. My wife got him facing it and I put Toby's chest up against the horses rear end and just pushed him off the bank into the water!

There were several others along on the ride and a friend suggested I change Toby's name to Caterpiller. My buddy Ray rode a mule also and sometimes on rides people would ask how come we rode mules. Ray said it was so we could provide wreaker service for the horses. Ray's mule was a big ole jug headed red mule named Sweetie Pie. He called him Sweets, but always threatened to change his name. Said he felt like an idiot riding a mule named Sweetie Pie.

Me and Ray had been on many rides in the local mountains or the central Sierras where some pretty good looking horses were just flat wearing out. Never did see anyone riding a mule who felt compelled to get off. We did a lot of packing too.

My daughter started lessons when she was 6 years old and when she was 14 was invited ti exhibit at the Mercedes Gran Prix in Dressage at the LA Equestrian center. She hated Dressage with a passion but did it to please her mom. Dressage is a lot of work. What Christian liked and mainly competed in was cross country eventing. She'd had 2 extremely talanted horses. When she was 16 it was time to start looking for one to carry her on. Luckily she also kind of discovered boys, as those horses were all 5 digit propositions.

One time she though it'd be fun to teach Toby to jump so she started out. She said mules jump funny. She had him jumping 2'6" and he jumped like a frog. A split seconds hesitation at the cross bar and spring over all at once. She said he'd also lose interest and she'd have to carry him over, so he was making HER work. Finally if he'd had enough he'd just crash through and not even try to jump, HA!

Whenever I'd meet someone riding a mule, first thing I'd ask was the mules name. People give their mules interesting names. My grandmother grew up on a farm in southwestern Missouri and her older brother had 4 mules, even after they'd gotten tractors. She said thier names were, Tip, Bob, Jerry and Shorty. I have a picture of them in harness and they were sure some good looking animals. Grandma said when her mom would ring the dinner bell those mules would stop and wouldn't move another inch.

.................Buckshot

[no34570]

Hey Buckshot
I got one of your push thru sizer dies in .432 dia,when I got the Ranchdog 44cal mould from jeff223,jeff got it for me and I have to say it is a very nicely finished die,well done mate.
Dale
no34570

[brayhaven]

[QUOTE=Buckshot

Said he felt like an idiot riding a mule named Sweetie Pie.

Whenever I'd meet someone riding a mule, first thing I'd ask was the mules name. People give their mules interesting names. My grandmother grew up on a farm in southwestern Missouri and her older brother had 4 mules, even after they'd gotten tractors. She said thier names were, Tip, Bob, Jerry and Shorty. I have a picture of them in harness and they were sure some good looking animals. Grandma said when her mom would ring the dinner bell those mules would stop and wouldn't move another inch.

.................Buckshot[/QUOTE]

Great story. Mule names are very interesting. I've been raising, showing & writing about them for a number of years (probably close to 100 articles) and have run across some great names. Jordass Jean, Emma Classy Ass, Golda My Ear, etc. I know how your friend felt about "sweetie pie". I had a friend who had one named "Baby Cakes", but refused to tell anyone her name :o). We no longer raise them but, still stand a jack @ my partner's farm in WI. My last foal, I named "Cecil Be Da Mule"
I appreciate your input on this site. I'm just getting into cast bullet shooting. Have shot a few off & on and been a gunsmith & competitive shooter for years, but decided to learn more about cast cf bullets & shooting. I'm just finishing up a CB rifle in 30 WCF on a ruger #1 action with a wind river tapered oct barrel. Should be at the range with it next week. You guys do a great job here. Thanks!
Greg

[Buckshot]

Hey Buckshot
I got one of your push thru sizer dies in .432 dia,when I got the Ranchdog 44cal mould from jeff223,jeff got it for me and I have to say it is a very nicely finished die,well done mate.
Dale
no34570

.............Thanks! Your welcome.

..........Buckshot

Brayhaven, " You guys do a great job here. Thanks!"

............I kinda like it. It's growing so I guess it's okay :-)

.........Buckshot

[Bigjohn]

I think that's what I like about this site; the varied alternative interests of it's members. Let's see now:- Tractors, DOGS, motor bikes, sheep, cats and now mules, (did I miss any?) and last but not least CAST BOOLITS! [smilie=w:

Buckshot: I enjoyed your description on making a push through die. Handy information if I need one in a size not available from normal suppliers.

It IS very interesting to read the input on these varied subjects.

Thank you.

John :drinks:

[Buckshot]

...........I finally got a picture of threading on the backside.

http://www.fototime.com/BA6361C20C96D6A/standard.jpg

First time I tried it I about crashed the toolpost into the chuck! If the spindle rotates in reverse, so does the leadscrew if it is set in the normal 'topcoming' position. I flipped the lever for the leadscrew to turn in reverse, which naturally meant since the spindle was in reverse the lead screw would turn normally and feed TOWARD the headstock!

I was glad I never took my hand off the clutch lever! I ground a bit so I can get to a little less then one thread's pitch distance from a shoulder. I'm making a connector for an old pot type spray gun for one of the guys at work in this photo.

................Buckshot

[Willbird]

I have a;ways thought the perfect way to thread would be to use a hydraulic tracer setup with a template to move the tool away at the proper place, then if you have a lathe that you can set the trip dog to kick the leadscrew to nuetral man you would be in like flynn. The trip dogs I speak of will work on both directions of travel, and will stop the carriage nicely in an undercut...and when you run back towards the tailstock they will stop the carriage on that end too.

Pratt and whitney lathes have them, I once threaded about 1000 acme leadscrews for 8" mill vises on one...slicker than owl poop :-)

Bill

[Buckshot]

.................Yeah, but those were REAL machines :-)

................Buckshot

[grumpy one]

There is one aspect of cutting on the reverse side that I particularly like: it uses the opposite side of the lead screw and half-nuts compared with conventional screw-cutting, and since my lead screw has visible wear over the last foot (the lathe spent its youthful years in a toolroom) this would be a way to start again wear-wise.

As it happens my cross-slide is designed with a short movement of an extremely long slide, to maximise dove-tail engagement, so I can't get within a country mile of moving the toolpost over to the far side of the spindle center. However the cross-slide was made with two toolpost mounting pads - one on each side of the spindle center. Perhaps somebody in prewar Germany had heard of the Buckshot method of screw-cutting, or perhaps it was just a general-purpose provision for things like taper attachments etc. Unfortunately the alternative toolpost mounting pad is not machined to provide a mounting for the toolpost, so using this idea would involve taking the cross-slide off and machining it as required. I must take it apart and find out what "as required" turns out to mean.

Geoff

[floodgate]

Grumpy:

Another advantage of a toolpost spot on the far side that I have heard of, bt never tried (never having had one of those extra-long cross-slides) is in using a cutoff tool, upside down, BEHIND the workpiece. Any springing tends to move the tool OUT of the cut,rather than digging in, and can minimize chatter in tough material.

Definitely worth finishing off that extra toolpost pad.

floodgate

[grumpy one]

I just took a look at it Doug, and it isn't a simple job. When you lift off the compound slide, it mounts on a four inch diameter T-slot so that it can rotate, with the angle scale engraved onto the cross-slide. I think it has been made by swinging the whole cross-slide in a lathe and boring it. Not only could I not bore without having the use of the cross-slide, but to center on the second pad on the cross-slide, I'd be needing a lathe that could swing about 40 inches on diameter (the cross slide is a couple of feet long). My lathe only swings 14 inches (small for a toolroom lathe, but it was made in the 1930s).

I might be able to set up the cross-slide on the rotary table and mill it. I couldn't rotate the rotary table 360 degrees without the cross-slide hitting the column of the mill as it swung around. However with vast difficulty I could presumably mill a bit more than half of the slot, then shift the Y axis slide by the diameter of the T slot and set it up again so I could then mill the other half. If I wasn't such a lousy machinist, I'd consider that pretty easy.

It might also be possible to buy a smaller compound slide for the lathe and mount it on the other side of the spindle center rather than shifting the original compound slide back and forth. That way I might be able to mount the extra slide at a non-adjustable 30 degrees to the cross-slide (for American threads) and hope that's close enough to 27.5 degrees (for British threads). Mounting might then be pretty simple, depending on the design of the compound slide. Parting would not be affected - that would be done with the cross-slide, whichever side of the spindle I was working on.

Either of those solutions is pretty painful from my point of view - one is a lot of work, and the other probably a lot of money - so I'll need to think about the problem at great length.

Geoff

[georgeld]

Buck:

Cousin Bill had a big mule named Ruth he rode and packed all over the SanJuan Mtns around Pagosa Springs CO.

We'd planned for several years to make a ridgeline ride from the top of Wolf Creek Pass to Durango. Three yrs in a row he had to work, the last time about 1976 or so I had to work. He put a group of fellow State Troopers, doctor, local coroner, his Dad and a couple other guys. Believe there was 9 men, 12 horses and his mule Ruth he was riding. Bill's about 6'4".

Mid afternoon of the third day lightning was hitting the hillside about 1500' higher and a light rain. Decided it was only three miles to the cabin they'd go ahead and quit for the day and have a good steak they'd packed along.

Bill was second in line, trail dipped down a low spot and lightning hit them. Killed the man and horse in front, Ruth, stunned Bill bad, busted his face on a rock, his pack horse, and second one behind, skipped over two men, hit a horse, and jumped more and got a couple more.

In all, killed one man, mule, and six horses. When I found out, sure was glad I couldn't make that trip. Imagine you read about the ordeal. "Lighting hits kills CO State trooper on Wolf Crk Trailride".

Hell of a trip huh? Don't never cross an open hillside at timberline in the afternoons of August during a rain.

Enjoyed your ramblings about the mules. I've done a lot of elk hunting and packing, ranching, cattle etc.