speer brass wrinkling in press

[squid1230]

I have come against a strange problem. Using the Lee pro 1000 for a few years now with nary a problem until this so I don't think it's the press necessarily. Every now and then, I get a round of .40s&w come out of the press with a big wrinkle on one side. Now every speer case doesn't do it, but every wrinkled one is a speer ( if that makes any sense). Has anyone noticed a decline in quality of brass from speer, or perhaps its thinner walled?

[Char-Gar]

My first thought would be to take a close look at the way the press is handling the process.

[StarMetal]

If it doesn't do it to other brand cases I suspect the Speer brass not the press. I think maybe you are on the right track with perhaps the brass being thinner or my concern soft. Compared to other cases fired in the same pistol do the Speer cases show more bulge at the web then the other brands?

[mike in co]

the bullet not entering the case, cathes the side and ruins it.
most likely cause is not belling, due to varition in case length......

trim the cases

mike in co

[1hole]

"My first thought would be to take a close look at the way the press is handling the process. "

And the press knows what brand of cases it's being fed so it can wrinkle them?

[Edubya]

First off, load by headstamp. Secondly; back off your crimp a little.
EW

[Down South]

I ran a few hundred rounds of Speer .40 S&W through one of the Dillons the other day with no problem. I don't have a large quantity of Speer brass but I found a bag full of once fired on the shelf and used it.
I think the problem is with the brass. A few things come to mind. I wonder if the brass had been fired in a pistol with very loose chambers and was well over sized to begin with. Maybe the brass is work hardened and not as flexible as it should be. Could be just some bad brass.

[mike in co]

First off, load by headstamp. Secondly; back off your crimp a little.
EW


it happens before crimp...

[Trapshooter]

Another thing to check for is case head flatness. If the rims are mangled by the extractor, the case sets crooked in the shell holder. If it is crooked enough, the leading edge of the shell hits the die outside the "funnel", and mangles it.

Trapshooter

[7of7]

"My first thought would be to take a close look at the way the press is handling the process. "

And the press knows what brand of cases it's being fed so it can wrinkle them?

Now that you mention it,... yes... :bigsmyl2:

It could actually be a slightly short case, so it isn't belling enough and is catching on the bullet.
I noted that myself with some 45's. When I set up the expander, I must have used a long case, that needed to be trimmed. When I ran some trimmed cases through, it wasn't belling them.

[1hole]

" It could actually be a slightly short case,...When I ran some trimmed cases through, it wasn't belling them."

Okay. But isn't that a die adjustment problem due to some short cases rather than a press (or die) problem? Nor would such cases relate to a single brand of cases. ??

No matter ... I was just curious.

[Edubya]

it happens before crimp...

Excuse me. I fail to read that in the OP, " I have come against a strange problem. Using the Lee pro 1000 for a few years now with nary a problem until this so I don't think it's the press necessarily. Every now and then, I get a round of .40s&w come out of the press with a big wrinkle on one side. Now every speer case doesn't do it, but every wrinkled one is a speer ( if that makes any sense). Has anyone noticed a decline in quality of brass from speer, or perhaps its thinner walled?" Did he mention that in other posts?
EW

[ANeat]

Were all just guessing really, the OP doesent know when it happens. It would be nice to see one of the wrinkled cases to see if the bullet is causing it or what??

Using a P1k he will be seating/crimping in one die

[squid1230]

Well guys, thanks for the ideas. Off hand I wouldn't say its the bullet as there is no lead being shaved off upon seating. I will measure the speer cases compared to others. As far as not belling enough - I find it odd that the wrinkle would only be on one side, not all the way around. The case head is ok, but I find the speers are slighly concave when looking straight at the headstamp.

[ANeat]

Perhaps too much flare on the Speers, and getting hung up in the seat/crimp die?

What dies are you using there squid?

Do you feel it when one gets "wrinkled" or do you just find the wrinkled ones when youre inspecting them all

[shotman]

One thing you are getting is that if you look at a Speer 40 you will see that there are some that the rim is rebated, that will cause the case to tip in the shell holder. I had that problem with the Speer 357Sig but they would crush the bottle neck. I see more in the brass than the nickle. if you sort them you can use the 9mm shell plate for the smaller rim

[emorris]

What part of the case is wrinkling? I assume that it is once fired brass, if so do you know the history of the brass? Is just above the case webb? What type of dies are you using? Glocks and some other firearms dont fully support the brass in the chamber which creates a bulge in the brass. I have always been extra cautious when reloading 40sw for this reason. When you resize fire resize fire x# of times the brass will become work harden and can fail KABOOM. I have had a similar if not the same porblem as you with a 40 that had a large chamber. My brass would wrinkle just above the webb. I finally figured out the the resizing die was catching the buldged area and causing the wrinkle. I switche die brands but still had a small buldge. to fix this i disassembled a lee factory crimp die and ran the brass through it with a pusher from lees cast sizing kit.

[mike in co]

Excuse me. I fail to read that in the OP, " I have come against a strange problem. Using the Lee pro 1000 for a few years now with nary a problem until this so I don't think it's the press necessarily. Every now and then, I get a round of .40s&w come out of the press with a big wrinkle on one side. Now every speer case doesn't do it, but every wrinkled one is a speer ( if that makes any sense). Has anyone noticed a decline in quality of brass from speer, or perhaps its thinner walled?" Did he mention that in other posts?
EW

yes its plain and clear////crimp dies do the top of the case......not the side.....but i will admit his description of a "big wrinkle" leaves a bit to desire.

heck i could be wrong...lol

[mike in co]

What part of the case is wrinkling? I assume that it is once fired brass, if so do you know the history of the brass? Is just above the case webb? What type of dies are you using? Glocks and some other firearms dont fully support the brass in the chamber which creates a bulge in the brass. I have always been extra cautious when reloading 40sw for this reason. When you resize fire resize fire x# of times the brass will become work harden and can fail KABOOM. I have had a similar if not the same porblem as you with a 40 that had a large chamber. My brass would wrinkle just above the webb. I finally figured out the the resizing die was catching the buldged area and causing the wrinkle. I switche die brands but still had a small buldge. to fix this i disassembled a lee factory crimp die and ran the brass through it with a pusher from lees cast sizing kit.


glocks do support the brass, but do have large chambers.

some very early glock40's had unsupported chambers..they were all replaced by glock long ago.

the work hardening is correct the potential is there for failure, but more likely to have failures to feed from poorly sized cases....which is why hornady came out with thier push thru die for 40.

mike in co

[1hole]

"When you resize fire resize fire x# of times the brass will become work harden and can fail KABOOM."

I've been reloading a lot of years, had lots of work hardened cases (pistol and rifle) split harmlessly; never even heard of a KABOOM from a simple split. And never heard of a pistol case having a head seperation. That's a common rifle case problem but it's due to excessive resizing, resulting in repeated case stretching, not work hardening. ??

[squid1230]

Cases measure the same as all the rest more or less. The brass is once fired. I weighed a bunch against Federal and Win brass and found the speer to be on average 3gn lighter.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/48698670@N02/4463037440/

[mike in co]

Cases measure the same as all the rest more or less. The brass is once fired. I weighed a bunch against Federal and Win brass and found the speer to be on average 3gn lighter.

i'll continue with "if they have not been trimmed to length" all bets are off.

can you define which step in the process is causeing the wrinkle ?


mike in co

[squid1230]

Bullet seating/crimping is my guess. Because it is random, and the seating crimping die is the one I can see, I never see the wrinkles until they drop into the bin.

I am trying to upload a pic from flikr, but it isn't showing up.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/48698670@N02/4463037440/

[mike in co]

"When you resize fire resize fire x# of times the brass will become work harden and can fail KABOOM."

I've been reloading a lot of years, had lots of work hardened cases (pistol and rifle) split harmlessly; never even heard of a KABOOM from a simple split. And never heard of a pistol case having a head seperation. That's a common rifle case problem but it's due to excessive resizing, resulting in repeated case stretching, not work hardening. ??

one hole,
i'd say he is repeating internet folklore.
as i pointed out it is several stories lumped together to produce a big bang story.

a) it is POSSIBLE, but a very remote possibility....i single pc of brass fired and reloaded multiople times in a glock, then fired in teh the ONE glock that did nto get is unsupported bbl replaced..or something like that.

again as i said glock brass is an issue but more of a size issue that an case failure issue.

mike in co

[squid1230]

Bullet seating/crimping is my guess. Because it is random, and the seating crimping die is the one I can see, I never see the wrinkles until they drop into the bin.

I am trying to upload a pic from flikr, but it isn't showing up.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/48698670@N02/4463037440/

There it is!

[captaint]

I can't imagine this happening at any other time but during sizing. Is the sizer carbide?? Is the die really clean?? Are the case mouths tore up?? Dented?? Maybe we'll hear back. Mike

[mike in co]

There it is!

ok...so you need to get out of the one step seat and crimp to figure out which it is...

back the die out a turn and turn the seater stem back in.

do they still wrinkle ?

if yes..my guess is insufficeint bell( again poor case length )

if no then its the crimp and guess what ??....same issue poor case length.......an issue where the die is set on a random length case which was probably short, and when it hits a long case it just keeps pushing and bingo a wrinkled case.......


the belling issue can be over come with a lyman m die with out trim to length, but is cases are still long the crimp die will still get you........

so back off the crimp die to work on an AVERAGE case( you gotta go sample a bunch if you aint gonna trim them), and just deal with lite and heavy crimps.....short range work it maybe ok.

mike in co

[Down South]

Well, I had imagined a wrinkle going length ways of the bullet. A picture is worth a thousand words.
Have you checked the trim length of that brass? I'd bet that it's a tad longer than the non-problem brass.

[squid1230]

ok...so you need to get out of the one step seat and crimp to figure out which it is...

back the die out a turn and turn the seater stem back in.

do they still wrinkle ?

if yes..my guess is insufficeint bell( again poor case length )

if no then its the crimp and guess what ??....same issue poor case length.......an issue where the die is set on a random length case which was probably short, and when it hits a long case it just keeps pushing and bingo a wrinkled case.......


the belling issue can be over come with a lyman m die with out trim to length, but is cases are still long the crimp die will still get you........

so back off the crimp die to work on an AVERAGE case( you gotta go sample a bunch if you aint gonna trim them), and just deal with lite and heavy crimps.....short range work it maybe ok.

mike in co


Ok Fella's I backed the crimp out a tad and bingo - the next 50 ( all speer) cases came out perfect. I thank you all kindly for your direction.

[StarMetal]

Ok Fella's I backed the crimp out a tad and bingo - the next 50 ( all speer) cases came out perfect. I thank you all kindly for your direction.

Why that old swabbie hit the belay pin right on the head!!! That's great.