annealing brass

[Bad Water Bill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbjhTXvwVPU&feature=related

I saw this on u tube and found it interesting. it sure would speed up the job and get many cases done in one hour. Then I searched for the Mfgr and found out this product is made only 60 miles from home. A phone call was made. Yes sir we have that item in stock and the price is $500.00. After I picked the phone up from the floor I started thinking about making one. BUT all of my electrical training is 50 years old so I am wondering if anyone here can duplicate this product inexpensively

[longranger]

Wow, it sure does a nice job. Wish I could figure it out but I am "elcetrically declined" At the Shiloh Sharps store they have unit for propane that does all sides at once for alot less than $500.00.:brokenima

[Doc Highwall]

I like how fast it is but I think it is too hot as you can see the brass glow.

[vernm]

There is another video on youtube. Same guy, same hardware. Now he has a variable timer on his coil. Problem solved.

[Bad Water Bill]

I agree but you can do the same with a torch. Just don't hold it there so looooong.

To bad I wasn't born rich, smart or good lookin. Oh well all them guys are gone and I am still here so I won't complain.:D

[montana_charlie]

I like how fast it is but I think it is too hot as you can see the brass glow.
The case necks turn a bright red, and that is in a brightly lit area. They are getting much too hot.

The setup looks simple, but it will take some research to figure out what he makes his coil from...and what kind of power it needs.

EDIT...
After fifteen minutes of reading, there are some basics to pass on which are easy to understand...if not easy to duplicate.

The coil is just copper tubing curled into a circle.
For this application, perhaps cooling liquid flowing inside the tube is not needed...I don't know.

The power is a high frequency current of somewhere between 100 and 400 kilohertz. That is radio frequency current.
An oscillator capable of that kind of output would be required to provide the electricity pumped through the coil.
It's the frequency that does the work...more than the amount of raw current applied.

And...that's all it takes.

CM

[AZ-Stew]

According to the article in the latest Handloader, there's a temperature sensitive paint available that will indicate when the brass has reached the correct temperature. It could be used in conjunction with the induction heating to properly anneal the brass.

100-400KHz is RF, but a VERY low frequency RF. It's below the AM broadcast band, which is the lowest RF frequency band known to most folks. Regardless, a certain amount of power is going to have to be applied to heat the brass to "glowing". A Ghz at 0.1W won't do the job. There's more to it than just the frequency. With the proper circuit, it wouldn't be necessary to use the temp. sensitive paint. Apply just the right amount of power and you'll get just the right amount of heat.

I didn't go to the trouble to research this inductive heater. Did anyone else find a circuit diagram or other description of the circuit?

Regards,

Stew

[Bad Water Bill]

Here is what I found for the temp indicator

http://www.google.com/products?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&q=tempilaq&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=zA6oS5bODpWyNubW6L0M&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CA8QzAMwAA

I did not look for any diagrams because I do not know what to look for as so many things have changed since I was in AE school. All we had were glass tubes and big resistors

[montana_charlie]

You can find a simple schematic of the coil here, as well as a simplified block diagram of an induction heating system.
http://www.inductionatmospheres.com/induction_heating.html

In the system diagram you can eliminate the feedback loop elements. That requirement will be met by your eye seeing the color change and your hand removing the case from the coil.

The 'power supply' is a radio frequency generator you find on eBay (or someplace). And, the 'heating station' is the arrangment anchored on your bench where the leads from the generator are connected to the coil.

As said before, I don't know if cooling liquid would be required, but I see no indication of anything like that in the video.

Regardless, a certain amount of power is going to have to be applied to heat the brass to "glowing". A Ghz at 0.1W won't do the job. There's more to it than just the frequency.
No, a Ghz (at any wattage) won't do the job at all. The frequency is so high, only the thinnest layer of the skin would generate any heat. At that frequency, the heat may only penetrate one molecule deep.

Conversely, a 5 Khz signal will cause heat to be generated deep inside a solid block of metal.

As for the amount of power required, it's probably true that (say) 100 watts will heat to 600 degrees faster than 50 watts. But 50 watts may reach the same temperature, if you wait long enough.

CM

[pdawg_shooter]

I still use, and get near perfect results, with 800* lead. Not the fastest system but I am in no hurry.

[jmorris]

I built an automated one there are links to step by step photos of the build and videos of it running here http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=48611

In order to defray some of the costs having the “blade” part CNC laser cut I had more than I needed cut so I could sell them to other do it yourself types. I also traced out the top plate and where all the holes go, the drive wheel and torch arms (to scale). A blade and the drawings are $60 shipped in the con US. Shoot me a PM if you’re interested.


http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/annealer/DSC01810.jpg

[Calamity Jake]

I will put my $500 in a good gun and continue to use my record playing turn table, a cutoff #3 coffee can and propane torch!!

Did 200 cases in about 45 minutes last Sunday afternoon.

[roggom]

Wow, two of my favorite hobbies, DIY electronics and reloading. This looks like a great challenge. I will start working on the timer circuit and start scouring the net for various RF induction circuits. I build solid state and tube amplifiers, so I am comfortable with prototyping. Any techs who come across some schematics please link to the thread.

Rogers

Edit:

Noticed this circuit http://diymania.hv4all.com/zvs%20ih.PNG and there are many examples on youtube http://www.google.com/search?q=youutube+zvs+heater&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Ubu&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&tbs=vid:1&tbo=u&ei=I2CpS7-JFJC2swOh5LGzBQ&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CBEQqwQwAA . A couple of mosfets and other components. Its called a ZVS induction heater.

[looseprojectile]

In my opinion he is getting his brass way too hot in the video.
Instead of buying and assembling all that machinery and electronics I will buy another can of propane for my Turner torch.
I hold the brass in my fingers and heat the neck and a little of the shoulder while turning 180 degrees till I see just a start of color change then drop them on the bench. A couple or three seconds. YMMV. At the most I don't get them hot enough to see any glow. They turn out looking just like a factory GI annealed brass. Very consistent. The brain and hand eye cooridination does it all.
That method would work if he didn't hold it in the coil so long. Propane is cheaper initially.

Life is good

[roggom]

The builder of the first rig has constructed a timing circuit and now has the annealing down to the correct timing.

To Bill's point, there are many commercial items out there made to perform a specific task. These products can be reproduced with virtually the same parts, but most of the cost is defrayed as the builder invests his own time. Sure, I currently have a propane rig with a variable speed drill, and a couple of sockets. The torch works like a charm, but the induction heater is just fascinating.

I figure if there is enough people on board we can collaborate to make a functional rig about the size of a small ammo box. I am not trying to steal this guys idea or move to production. Just something anyone with the proper electronics background can make at home.

[roggom]

Threw together a plan and layout for the timing circuit. This is untested but just to show how it can be done. The Eagle (when complete) can be downloaded and transferred to a PCB for home etching. The picture below is the guys rig.



Also looking at the blog, it appears that the guy is in fact using a ZVS flyback driver as an RF generator. Most folks use these to make DIY tesla coils, and for those not familiar, the sparking units in the old Frankenstein movies. The picture looks like a Switch mode power supply and the ZVS board (actually a Royer heater).
http://i817.photobucket.com/albums/zz92/techapoe/Automatic%20Annealer/RoyHeater.jpg
Just need someone to figure out the ferrite core to induction coil section.

The LED in the schematic simulates the heater, also I figure since the relays both come in at the same time, it can be done on one dpdt relay.

[mtnman31]

The guy's setup is pretty slick. If I had access to one of the Mini-Ductor's he has, I'd use it in a heartbeat. I agree that something similar could be made for very cheap. As for the timing circuit, I'd just use the darkroom timer that I already have. The timer I have is digital and can be adjusted down to one second intervals. Once the time is set all you do is push a button and it repeats the time. The only question would be how much wattage the inductor uses since the darkroom timers I have seen are rated for less than 1200w on the output. Hopefully someone can really play with this and make it work. I am not proficient on the engineering side of electronics, but would have no problem building the item from components.

[roggom]

From what I have read the power supply must be around 300watts. Further reading, the essentials of the power supply are line power, and a 15v 1A power supply. I do not like using line power without a line isolator so this will have to be added. You can use your timer to control both an isolation transformer and low voltage power supply. Either way, I am sure it will work, just have to work through the other particulars.

Note: More info on the heater board http://www.neon-john.com/Induction/Roy/Roy.htm

Other note: I am making some great headway, I have already modded the heater circuit to work on a single plane board, also I will be adding a 12v regulator to the timer circuit to step the 15 down to 12vdc. Next: putting together a parts list for mouser for the main components. Will have to do more research on the ferrite and heater coil.

[mtnman31]

Other note: I am making some great headway, I have already modded the heater circuit to work on a single plane board, also I will be adding a 12v regulator to the timer circuit to step the 15 down to 12vdc. Next: putting together a parts list for mouser for the main components. Will have to do more research on the ferrite and heater coil.


Fantastic!

[Bad Water Bill]

Still watching and learning I hope. With any luck we can all build one of these things for under $1.00:bigsmyl2:

[roggom]

Was able to etch a timer board, have to wait to etch the heater board as I do not have the correct size blank. Now for the fun part, scrounging up parts. Most parts can be had at Mouser or Digikey, but the Inductor, IGBT (or MOSFET) relays and high speed diodes will have to be purchased from overseas for the best price. A little eBayin and I will be able to collect them. For those who will build one of these, keep an eye out for old computer power supplies or junked out computers at the thrift. The power supply may have the appropriate inductor and some other parts that can be harvested and used in this circuit.

In all reality this project will probably run between $50 and $100. Depending on how many recycled parts can be found. Either way, something to build in your spare time.

[Bad Water Bill]

Still watching

[roggom]

In process of collecting parts. May take a little bit as I have eBay'd many of them. Will post as I make progress.

[roggom]

Ok got my parts in from digikey and finally populated and tested the timer board. This is a very important component as the heating must be controlled, the easiest is to control the amount of time. The timer will be powered by 15v dc power supply and will then control a high power relay. The circuit is an LM555 single shot lock in circuit. The unit can be operated with a momentary switch and will latch for a few milliseconds to a minutes. There is also an option to toggle and cycle, or have the unit on for say 1 second, and repeat every 3 seconds etc.

The top potentiometer controls the pause and the lower controls the pulse. The diagram is finished and there is a layout of the components.

Here is a link to learn how to etch boards at home. Once you do a few boards it becomes pretty easy, you can buy ferric chloride at Radio Shack, or use Hydrogen Peroxide and Muriatic acid (my preferred method)

http://www.riccibitti.com/pcb/pcb.htm home etch
http://joshuagalloway.com/pcb.html Muriatic acid way

Quick Disclaimer, etching uses caustic and pretty nasty chemicals, just use caution and correct personal protective gear, and have fun.


I have included the EAGLE file, you can go here and download the freeware http://www.cadsoft.de/,
then print the traces and holes only to a glossy magazine page, Must be a laser printer, as the toner has to transfer to the magazine page then to the pcb. If you do not have a laser printer, print onto paper, then use a xerox machine to copy onto a magazine paper. I have found that journal magazines covers work the best.

Will work on the main heater pcb next.

[Bad Water Bill]

Still watching and drooling. :smile:

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I use a $25 spinner and a drill, can do over a hundred 45-110 cases an hour, Works well for me, I use a mild anneal just a hint of color and Air Cool, more consistant anneal for me. The loads have shot into the mid 250's in Creedmoor and well the results pretty much Speak for themselves.

KW
The Lunger

[bearcove]

KISS works fine for me

[roggom]

As stated before, I use a couple of sockets and a propane torch as well, but the point of the project is to produce something that is completely different, yet economically achievable.
This project will only make sense to a niche group of folks, and the satisfaction will come from building a working unit.

[easy ed]

Watching with a lot on interest.

Easy Ed

[Bad Water Bill]

Thanks Chief. Couldn't have said it any better. I have been a tinkerer for well over 60 years and see no reason to quit yet. When you quit learning it is time to close the lid.:smile:

[mtnman31]

Yes, this project has an appeal to me because I have been working in electronics for the past few years and know that it is a fairly simple set up. I also know that electronics is a market that sometimes has an insanely high mark-up for low sales volume/specialized products, even ones that are a simple design. This is one of those products. The product the guy uses in the video is 500+! If it can be home built for 50-100 bucks, I'd be all over it.

Chief, hopefully this works out well and keep us posted. I already have a nice DC power supply that should be able to run this. Hopefully, I can scrounge up a few of the other parts and components from work.

[roggom]

I have the main board about 90% populated. The only PIA parts to find are the fast acting diodes, rgpo2-20e and the main inductor. I found some diodes from MCM electronics for $1.50, but other than that they are sourced from Europe. I found a comparable inductor from eBay, it is rated at 100uH vs 200 uH, but according to all the reading, it should not matter. The rest of the parts I got from digikey. I am sure you can source the resistors and caps without an issue. Also if you are at the thrift, look at some old junk receivers to snag a nice heat sink.

Lastly, I have a request for quote for the output transformer from fluxeon. Will see what he comes up with. The duty coil will be made with a few turns of #10 solid copper ground wire.

Thanks

[roggom]

Ok, finished the main board. I will post the board file as soon as I test it. It is a little slow process, but should have it up and running in a few weeks. Gotta get past the april 15 hump.

Thanks

[Bad Water Bill]

B T T before it gets lost:kidding:

[Shooter6br]

A great video on Ammosmith.com on annealing

[hansumtoad]

Senior Chief, I am IMPRESSED.

I kinda feel like an idiot... out in a semi-darkened garage with a propane torch and a pan full of water.

But what would you expent from a mustang brown shoe guy?

[easy ed]

Bump to top

[lwknight]

I'll just stick to lead dipping.
Did about 100 in like 10 minutes.

Heat up pure lead to about 750 and use non cleaned brass.
Dip for 5 seconds and don't even worry about quenching.
Cases should be de-capped because expanding trapped air will pop and fizzle the lead.

[Garyshome]

Here is a 5~12V ZVS Induction Heating Power Supply Tesla Driver Board Module
http://www.dx.com/p/5-12v-zvs-induction-heating-power-supply-tesla-driver-board-module-437182#.V-qb8sLruM8

[dragon813gt]

Not at that cost. Specs are severely lacking. No mention of the duty cycle. And the translation is horrible. Not sure if it's works for five minutes and then you let it cool. Or it takes five minutes to cool.