How to make 224 Boattail Bullets from rimfire jackets?

[closebutnocigar]

Dear friends, I am from europe (germany) and the last european company that made bullet swaging dies closed the doors about 1990.

My friends an I cast bullets for handgun and certain rifle calibers but never tried to swage bullets.

Todays most modern rifle is the AR 15 and you can´t cast for it´s 223 Rem caliber.

So we think about getting into swaging to produce our own bullets.

I red a lot about swaging at the corbin website. A lot of threads here are very interesting and helpful.

But - I really don´t have an idea what I need to start swaging.

I already have a "Rock Chucker" Press "on Steriods" and would like to use it for swaging.

Maybe you like the pictures:

http://up.picr.de/3977012.jpg

http://s1.up.picr.de/3977013.jpg

http://s2.up.picr.de/3977014.jpg



Corbin Die´s would cost about 700-800 Bucks with no boat tail.


So please - can you tell me if there is another company that produces quality swaging dies that are less expensive?

[plus1hdcp]

I haven't been able to find them but hopefully someone else can point you in the right direction.

[MIBULLETS]

Try Dr. Larry Blackmon at leblackmon@colla.com

[closebutnocigar]

Thank you.

I received his catalogue but don´t really understand what I need to make bullets.

Next thing is he says best bullet weight from rimfire empties is 50-55 grains.

I would prefer to make 65-69 Grains.

And I don´t understand how the boattail maker works ....

[nicholst55]

You are somewhat limited in bullet weight by the length of the .22 LR brass. Speer and Hornady both entered the bullet making business with a 52 grain flat base bullet, because that's what they could swage from .22 LR brass.

If you can locate a source for .224 jackets, you will have many more options. Sierra sells some excess jackets as they become available, so you might check their website. Not sure if they can (or would) export them or not.

And for what it's worth, there are a number of threads on this site about shooting cast bullets in AR-15s.

[Smokin7mm]

Richard Corbin of RCE also makes swaging equip. http://www.rceco.com/
For heavier 22's you can use a shortened 17HMR or 22mag casing. I have made 22's as heavy as 100gr out of 22mag casings for a friend of mine that shoots a 22BR with a 1 in 6" twist. In my RCE dies the boattail is formed during the core seating operation. As for jackets they can also be obtained through Berger. Hope this helps
Bret

[closebutnocigar]

I live in europe (germany) and I don´t have a chance to get a steady supply of jackets - that why I want to use rimfire empties because they are easy to get.

The last company that made swaging equipment in europe closed the doors about 1990.

While 22 lr empties are easily found the 17 hmr or 22 WMR are seldom seen and it would be a problem to get them.

In quantity I have no chance to get these empties so I have to find another way.

I wrote to rceco and Dr. Blackmon but didn´t get an answer from rceco until now but I hope to hear from them soon.

[Ballard]

Smokin7mm, What was your process of making the .224 jackets from .22 mag cases? I need to hear this process.

[MIBULLETS]

closebutnocigar, if you make a lead tip bullet you can get bullets in the mid 60 gr range using 22lr cases for jackets. I have made them up to 68 gr. This does have a good size lead tip on it.

Using Blackmon dies the boatail is formed in one step and replaces the core seating die. So, to make a bullet you need a press, core forming die (optional but recommended for greater weight consistancy), a core seating die (or boattail if you prefer), and a point forming die. You could add the lead tip forming die to make the lead tips look nice. This is usually called a dies set.

The Corbin method to form a boattail used two dies.

[sagacious]

I live in europe (germany) and I don´t have a chance to get a steady supply of jackets - that why I want to use rimfire empties because they are easy to get.
You may wish to work with what you have available while you're starting out. The whole point of this is to make use of what's available for free. As increasing demands are placed on the exact configuration of the finished bullets, the cost of tooling usually increases and the economy of the process decreases. Even here in the US, fired 22mag brass is nowhere near as plentiful as fired 22lr brass. Use what you have.

If you can get lots of fired 22lr cases-- great. You can easily use them to make bullets heavier than 55grs. But if you insist on making boat-tail, spire-point 65gr bullets you constrain your possibilities. Sometimes it's best to get started and work from there.

I mostly make bullets in the 52-55gr range, but I do make soft point bullets up to 64-65grs using 22lr brass, but you cannot generally make them super-pointy at that weight unless you use specialized techniques and tools. Doesn't matter, they're accurate as-is and that's what matters most to me.

What you need to make bullets swaged from fired 22lr cases is:
*A press capable of swaging
*A core mold and a source of soft lead, or .185" lead-wire and a core cutter
*A set of 22cal bullet swaging dies made to use 22lr jackets
*A large supply of fired 22lr cases-- get all you can
*A method of cleaning the cases, such as boiling in water or 'pickleing solution' or an ultrasonic cleaner
*Some swaging lubricant
*A method for annealing the cases, such as an oven
*Calipers capable of measuring to .01mm
*A scale capable of measuring to approx .01g

That's pretty much what one requires to swage bullets from 22lr cases. Hope this helps, good luck. :drinks:

[Smokin7mm]

closebutnocigar, if you make a lead tip bullet you can get bullets in the mid 60 gr range using 22lr cases for jackets. I have made them up to 68 gr. This does have a good size lead tip on it.

Using Blackmon dies the boatail is formed in one step and replaces the core seating die. So, to make a bullet you need a press, core forming die (optional but recommended for greater weight consistancy), a core seating die (or boattail if you prefer), and a point forming die. You could add the lead tip forming die to make the lead tips look nice. This is usually called a dies set.

The Corbin method to form a boattail used two dies.

I think if you are making the rebated boattail it uses two dies but my set from RCE does a standard BT in one die. RCE also make a rebated BT (at least he used to) which uses two dies.

Bret

[Smokin7mm]

Smokin7mm, What was your process of making the .224 jackets from .22 mag cases? I need to hear this process.


I do it the same way that 22lr empties are used. You just end up with a much longer jacket which needs to be trimmed to length. I use a harbor frieght mini chop saw for metal. I have a little jig to fit in the jaws for trimming jackets to length. The thing you need to watch when using the 22mags is they are a little thicker so the punch must be a little smaller than that for the 22lr or you will stick the jacket on the punch. You also need to use a extension punch as they usually dont go all the way though the derim die in one stroke. The punch extender is simply a 1" rod of slightly smaller diameter than the derim punch. You lower the ram insert the punch in the case and push it through. My Derim die from RCE came with this extension but a simple drill rod of the proper diameter will work, just radius the ends.
I have also developed a process for making jackets from 22mags all the way up to 7mm.
Bret

[KTN]

closebutnocigar,

you have any machinist friends who like challenges?
I'm no machinist, and I almost succeeded with my first try on die making.






I have also developed a process for making jackets from 22mags all the way up to 7mm.
Bret

Smokin7mm,

any more info you willing to share ?


Kaj

[Smokin7mm]

closebutnocigar,

Smokin7mm,

any more info you willing to share ?


Kaj

Sure, Basicly what I do is neck up a 22mag empty in my loading press. (a 25acp shell holder will fit the 22mag). I made an tapered expander of the appropriate size for the jacket I am making and expand the casing up as far down as I can. (You need the shell holder to get the case off the expander). Next I anneal the casings. Then I run the case into my 6mm de-rim die only enough to take the rim out and then punch it back out the bottom. I found if I didnt anneal them before derimming they stuck on the punch (which is just the opposite of what happens when I derim for 22cal?? go figure) This leaves the jacket at the required diameter for about 3/4 of its length. My 6.5mm & 7mm dies are BT so the bottom that is at 6mm is approximately the minor diameter of the BT. It doesnt have to be perfect as it fills out under the pressure of seating the core. I have made flat base bullets also and it works just fine. I do find that in using the 22mag jackets for these larger bullets that you need to have the lead come all the way to the tip or beyond and use a point up die. The jacket is thin and will fold if not supported by the lead.
Bret

[MIBULLETS]

I think if you are making the rebated boattail it uses two dies but my set from RCE does a standard BT in one die. RCE also make a rebated BT (at least he used to) which uses two dies.

Bret

Blackmon only lists one now and he told me it is a rebated boattail and only uses one die, the rebate is finished while point forming the bullet. His rebate is different than Corbins though, the rebate isn't as large. You can catch your finger nail on it, where Corbin's is quite pronounced.

[KTN]

Smoking7mm,

Thanks, you just gave me good excuse to buy .25 ACP dies. One more caliber I don't have gun for :mrgreen:.


Kaj

[closebutnocigar]

HURRRAAAAHHH

I made it!

I just bought a used Corbin Kit, it inludes:

RFJM-22R Rimfire Jacket Maker Die
CSL-2 Swage Lube
CS-1-R Core Seating Die
PF-1-R Point Forming Die
CM-4 .185 Core Mold, 4-cavity adj.wt.


It was expensive but it was the only one I ever saw on this side of the ocean.


Well, I think I´m in business now !!!

This is my press - a Rock Chucker on steriods.

http://up.picr.de/3977012.jpg

http://s1.up.picr.de/3977013.jpg

http://s2.up.picr.de/3977014.jpg

[sagacious]

Sounds great! Now you're on your way.

You might want to consider adjusting that piece of wire on your press so it doesn't accidentally cut the operator, and you may wish to cover those exposed threads to prevent any cuts from those too. Just a word to the wise.

Good luck, keep us posted on your progress. :drinks:

[closebutnocigar]

Today is a great day !!!

Finally I received a used Corbin Kit to make 224 Spitzer Bullets from 22 lr empties !!

There are 3 dies and a core mould.

And there is NO !!!! manual or something like this.

But I read the information at Mr. Corbins Homepage and of course the post´s here at the forum.

I understand that I have a draw die to form hulls from the empties, a seat die to seat the lead core and a form die to make a spitzer bullet.

Two of the three dies and the core mould were sealed in plastic baggies - they are all new!!!

However, at the present time I don´t really now what to do with them .... so I really need to try it.

Looks very complicated but I hope this will change soon.

[Sarg]

CBNC,

Glad your stuff came in and you got a steal if they were all sealed. It all takes a little experimenting to get it "just right". It took me a couple of days to find the right spot for my CH dies, but once I got it tuned in ... it was no problem.

Welcome to a wonderful past time and swage on brother.

Sarg

[closebutnocigar]

HELL !!!

I made it !!!

20 Empties in about three minutes - three cases I needed to discard because they were broken.

I found GOLD !!!

Here are the pictures!!

Best regard from probably the only corbin swager at this side of the ocean

http://up.picr.de/4103604.jpg

http://s1.up.picr.de/4103605.jpg

http://s2.up.picr.de/4103606.jpg

http://s4.up.picr.de/4103608.jpg

[closebutnocigar]

http://up.picr.de/4104185.jpg

http://s1.up.picr.de/4104186.jpg

http://s2.up.picr.de/4104187.jpg

http://s3.up.picr.de/4104188.jpg

http://s4.up.picr.de/4104190.jpg

http://s5.up.picr.de/4104191.jpg

[Bollocks]

There are more European swagers. Sent you a PM.

Greetings from Holland

[KTN]

Best regard from probably the only corbin swager at this side of the ocean


[smilie=s: :swagemine: :mrgreen:

And congratulations on your new dies and addiction.
Now you need to find some lead wire, that core mold is real PITA to use IMHO :wink:.


Kaj

[sagacious]

Great start! Go easy on your tools/dies while starting up-- replacement parts could be expensive.

Just a tip: You do not need the punch-out rod for the de-rimming process. You can adjust your de-rimming die so that your de-rimmed 22lr cases are pushed out through the top of the de-rim/draw die.

Keep on keepin on! :drinks:

[Jim_Fleming]

CBNC, if the die set contains what I think it does, one of your dies should have three holes drilled in it... Perpendicular to the polished center of the die...

That'll be your core swaging die... In it, you'll use pieces of lead about .187 in diameter, but a few to several grains over the desired weight. Don't forget to include the jacket on your scales, because the jacket itself weighs about 8-15 grains depending on the length etc..

If you need help just give the thread a buzz, one of us'll help ya...

[Jim_Fleming]

KTN, may I ask why you think the core mould is a nuisance to use?

This isn't to challenge you, it's to try and figure out what's wrong... I've made two of them, one in .187 dia. in 6 cavities, and the second one is in .312 dia. in 4 cavities.

It makes making cores *very* fast compared to making lead wire...



[smilie=s: :swagemine: :mrgreen:

Now you need to find some lead wire, that core mold is real PITA to use IMHO :wink:.


Kaj

[ANeat]

Jim I think he is refering to the Corbin core mold. I agree a core mold thats made like a regular mold is very fast.

Ive known a few guys that tried the Corbin mold and didnt care for it

You can get at least 9 cavities in a block the size of a Lee

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=153&pictureid=1726

[KTN]

Jim Fleming,

ANeat said it. I just don't like Corbin core mold.
Fixing it to work bench, casting with laddle, sprue sticking to sprue plate and trying to cast consistend cores with it just didn't work for me.
So I made lead wire extruder :mrgreen:,

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o277/kainiin/IMG_1428.jpg

And can cut more consistend cores from wire very fast with my home made core cutter with five settings, 30gr, 35gr, 40gr, 45gr and 50gr.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o277/kainiin/IMG_1420.jpg

Some day I will make core mold like ANeat's.



Kaj

[scrapcan]

Aw **** KTN you have done it again.

I want more info on your wire extrusion die. Would you start another thread? Nice core cutter also.

[Smokin7mm]

There is a thread on lead wire extruders where several individuals show their contraptions including myself. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=73664

Bret

[ANeat]

Yea there are a few good threads on wire extruders. Kaj had some pics of his a while back.

I agree that is a deadly looking core cutter ;)

[closebutnocigar]

I friend of mine uses a method I never heard or seen before: He has a kind of mould where he puts the emptie cases in holes. Then he pours molten lead in the empties.

He says its not a problem if the weight is not totally equal after the pouring because when he swages the bullet the lead will be pressed out of the die and forms a small piece of lead wire so he always gets a consistend bullet weight.

I used a scale and his bullets are very close together in weight.

His die is not a corbin he is a retired mechanic and makes his own - but strange looking - tools.

[KTN]

I want more info on your wire extrusion die. Would you start another thread?.


I post more pictures when I get my new extruder finished. This one is my first extrusion die and there is not much to show and tell. Right now piston on that die is stuck tight :oops: and I can't get it out. On my next version there will be better system to withdraw that piston.


Kaj

[scrapcan]

I have read the other threads on the extruders (including the use fo the log splitter). I thought we could get KTN to give some detailed pictures of what he did. If you haven't notice Kaj is more than willing to share his experiences, I like to take him up on those offers.

[Jim_Fleming]

Gents...

I acknowledge and respect your opinions about the Corbin mould system...

I made two Corbin style moulds (adjustable cavities and all!) and yes they're a bit stiff to eject the lead cores from. But I help that problem a lot by "swabbing" the cylinders with either Permatex anti-seizing compound or motor oil(s) usually a mixture of both... Also known as Never-Seez in some circles. (good stuff those two!)

I got the idea of swabbing from the fact that I work in the glass bottle industry and that's exactly how the Operators keep the glass from sticking, etc...

Thanks Guys,

[Jim_Fleming]

I made an extrusion die set-up, and ran into the same exact stone wall!

I was unable to extract my plunger, finally... I'd be very, very, interested in seeing knowing how everyone/anyone else withdraws the plunger after extrusion...

Thanks again for your patience, Gents...



I post more pictures when I get my new extruder finished. This one is my first extrusion die and there is not much to show and tell. Right now piston on that die is stuck tight :oops: and I can't get it out. On my next version there will be better system to withdraw that piston.


Kaj

[ARKANSAS PACKRAT]

I made a wire extruder die using a modified hardened drill bushing for the size die, powered by my shop press. Stuck plunger!
I solved my problem by threading the exposed body of the plunger. Use a nut and washer arrangement to pull it out. On mine once it moves about 1/2 to 3/4 inch it releases and comes out.
It does swage a thin film of lead around the head, I was concerned that if I made the head too close fitting it would really lock in if it swaged between the two parts.
Hope this helps.
Nick

[Smokin7mm]

On my extruder I had the die drilled & reamed to 3/4" and used a 3/4" grade 8 bolt with the threads cut off. The fit is pretty good, not too tight not too loose. I run this in extruding the lead until the bolt head is about 1/2" from the bottom of the die. I use a wrench under the bolt heat and just pop it out. If it is really sticky I can put a wrench on the bolt head and work it back and forth a little before popping it out.
Bret

[Jim_Fleming]

I'll have to sketch out what I did, and what I have, so as to give an idea as to where I am, and what I've got...

I used a 3 in. dia x 4 in. long chunk of stainless steel round stock, reamed a 1.0000 dia. hole into it, made up a .999 x 5 in. dia. plunger, that was drilled and tapped 3/8-16 threads into the top of the plunger.

It worked well for a while until the female threads in the top of the plunger finally gave way... I still have everything, but as I said the plunger is stuck inside, ugh!

I'm sure I can get it all apart, but you gents have given me some ideas as to what to work with... Perhaps a Grade 8, 1 in bolt threads cut off just might be the ticket... :bigsmyl2:

Once I get it all apart and working, (if I do that is) I'll be badgering y'all for more info on how to build the press itself...

Thanks!