problems with mold fillout with lee 148gr TL wadcutter

[bpg76]

i have a new lee tl .358 148grain wadcutter 2 cavity mold.i got it out on sunday morning cleaned and smoked it and casted around 200 bullets with it didnt have any trouble that day.yesterday got rained out for work so decided to cast some more had nothing but trouble getting the bullets to fill out properly.gave up and got out my other mold a lee .452 255 gr rf and casted good bullets with it all afternoon.got out the wadcutter mold again this morning and had the same trouble.i was trying to do the same thing i was the first day when i started using the mold but ive had nothing but trouble since trying to get the bullets to fill out properly.i was using straight wheelweights with a lee 10 pound bottom pour pot.any tips would be greatly appreciated

[44man]

Sounds like the temperature changed, turn the pot up some. I confess to never getting good boolits from a bottom pour. Some do but I never could. Try a ladle and see what happens.
You could have something blocking the bottom spout a little, doesn't take much crud to put a halt to a good boolit.

[grumpy one]

There are much better bullet casters on this board than I am, but I can set the scene a bit. Poor fillout means the molten alloy was too viscous, which means it wasn't hot enough in the last stages of the mould-filling process. That means you either need hotter alloy or a hotter mould. Within limits you can deal with the problem either by raising the pot temperature or speeding up the casting rate. You probably know that you will inevitably (unless you have pre-heated the mould somehow) get poor fillout at first until you heat up the mould thoroughly. That just takes as long as it takes, and aluminium moulds act differently from iron moulds so far as warm-up time is concerned. My method - and there are bound to be much better ones from the more experienced casters - is to run the pot about 50 to 75 degrees F above normal casting temperature during warm up. Then I just keep making bullets at my preferred pace in my preferred way, knowing that for a while they'll be garbage. Eventually the mould gets hot and I need to wind back the pot temperature to its normal level so the signs of having cast the bullets too hot won't become unacceptable.

This process works for me, because I don't like the idea of varying my casting technique or dipping the corner of the moulding blocks in the melt. I do cast quite a few dud bullets before I get in the groove, though - say twenty bad bullets during each warm-up process.

In comparing what you did with a Lee mould to get success with what you did with a Lyman mould, you're comparing aluminium and iron. They act fairly similarly once you get them hot, but during warm up they behave differently. I get used to whichever one I'm casting with, then get annoyed with the other type the next time I use it because it doesn't act the way I expect it to. Overall so far as casting technique is concerned I don't seem to prefer one type to the other, but I hate having to change over.

Of course as well as the difference between aluminium moulds and iron moulds, some bullet designs are easier to cast than others.

Geoff

[bpg76]

thanks for the help guys.ill crank up the temperature some more and try again.i take it that different caliber mold require different temperatures to fill out good guess i was going by what the 45 caliber 255gr mold liked and compounding the problem by constantly looking at the bullets which was problably giving the mold a chance to cool more making it worse.ill give it another try.any body else use this mold what would be a good temperature to start with?

[HiWayMan]

I have really been concentrating on this mould lately. I too use a Lee 10lbs bottom pour. I run my alloy at between 825F and 875F. I preheat the mould with the blocks slightly open over the pot. When heated to the above temp. it only takes about five casts to get the mould to final temp. Then I fill up each cavity, leaving a small pond over each sprue hole. When I see the pool flash over I give it a quick five count and knock it open. It took about 500 casts for my mould to get broken in really well.

I get really good fillout using 3 parts Lyman#2 to one part recycled cable sheathing (BHN=11). When water quelched and aged 15 days they are at 21 BHN.

[Dale53]

You might want to AGAIN clean your mould before you start. I now, after experimenting with brake cleaner, have gone back to the old method of taking an old toothbrush and scrubbing the mould with dish detergent water. Then rinse thoroughly in VERY hot water. Then after being CERTAIN the mould is dry, start casting. In fact, I bought a hot plate, now dedicated to bullet casting, and pre-heat the mold before casting. This does two things - it makes certain that any moisture is driven off by the heat and preheats the mould up to casting heat. Saves a LOT of time. After a few attempts, you will learn the correct temperature to set the hot plate at (don't want to melt the mould, do we:roll:) before you start work. You might try medium setting (yours may differ from mine). At any rate, if the bullets don't start out near perfect, you need to raise the heat on the hot plate a bit.

Bullet metal temperature of 750 degrees should be enough but I sometimes go up to 800 degrees or so. I DO have a thermometer. It is helpful to take notes so that you can refer back respecting a specific mould (I have dozens and they all seem a bit different). Alloy does make a difference in heat needed. Linotype casts well at 650 degrees. Use the least amount of heat necessary to get the job done.

I bottom pour only. Sometimes the mould needs to be a half inch from the spout, sometimes 1" and sometimes in contact as I "pressure pour". The only thing that counts is what works with that particular mould.

Dale53

[versifier]

Assuming your mould and metal tempertures are correct for the mould and that it is clean, something I have noticed with my bottom pour (an old Lyman) is that with some smaller boolits too much metal flows too quickly into the mould. Like Dale, I increase the distance, (drop tube effect) but I also take care to restrict the flow of the molten metal by not opening the fill all the way. Less metal flowing (restricted flow) at a higher pressure (increased drop height) has helped out a lot, especially with my #358495 wadcutter mould. My reject rate went from 50% down to 2-3% when I changed my casting technique.

[Leftoverdj]

What did you smoke the mould WITH? Poor fillout is caused by grease contamination more often than anything else, and a candle will grease up a mould in a hurry.

[bpg76]

i smoked it with a lighter..havent had time to try it out any more.will try again this weekend and try some of these tips.thanks

[Leftoverdj]

i smoked it with a lighter..havent had time to try it out any more.will try again this weekend and try some of these tips.thanks

Butane, fine. Zippo, disaster.

[bpg76]

i got a chance to cast yesterday.i raised the temperature and the problem went away.thanks for all the help guys

[Dale53]

This thread caused me to think a bit about problems I have had over the years. It has not happened often but HAS happened.

I suspect, STRONGLY, the need for "mould break in" to be caused by a failure to get all of the preservative from the mould in the first place. After "break in" the mould continues to work well for "life". Gotta be preservative burning off, allowing the mould to work well. Maybe... Perhaps.... At least, that is my current "take" on this.

I have had moulds that have worked well for years on a particular session that just refused to cast. Absolutely NO reason for this to happen. When I run into this, before I get so frustrated that I start breaking things, I just stop, and try again later. Almost invariably, it works perfectly the next time, giving NO reason for its bad behavior. My hippy friends would call this "bad Karma". Sometimes I believe in "bad Karma":mrgreen:.

Understand, this is a RARE occasion but it HAS happened. Mostly, purely scientific observation will disclose a cause of problems, but sometimes, Murphy wins...:???:.

Dale53

[AnthonyB]

My group buy Lee 358-180 FN is the most difficult casting critter in my inventory. I have used it during four or five different sessions, both ladle and bottom pour. It has been cleaned, Leemented, cleaned before every session, has set screws to hold the pivot and sprue hold-down in place, and still refuses to produce consistently good boolits. I ladle poured a few hundred yesterday and inspected them today - more than a 50% reject rate, so they all went back in the pot. Cleaned everything again and tried the bottom pour today, and even went to the extreme (for me) of adding tin. I didn't get a single acceptable boolit. I put the mould in time-out for a year, and the bottom pour furnace will be right beside it. Tony

[StarMetal]

I would have tried one more thing Tony. I would have put the sprue plate up tight against the bottom pour spout and filled them that way, then fill the sprue holes with more lead so they will knock out better, then open her up and see if they filled out then. Once a clean a new aluminum mould I never clean it again, what for? It's not going to rust and I don't keep my moulds where there is alot of moisture so the aluminum isn't going to corrode either. Most the time I don't clean my iron moulds either. I keep those in my gunsafe with the dehumidfier.

Joe

[felix]

Tony, that is the principal reason why I do not entertain the group buy molds. More the number of cavities, the more the boolits have to drop out quickly. The purpose is speed casting for these things. I hate square grease grooves. ... felix

[AnthonyB]

Joe, thanks for the tip, but I tried that one too. The mould doesn't seem to have enough venting, and I'll try beagling it when it comes out of time-out. I have a 311291 that wouldn't act right until I tired beagling it for larger boolits - that solved two problems at once.

Felix, I hear ya' on the aggravation factor. My first Lee six-cavity was the original BD45, and that one was a casting fool when used with the Magma 90 lb. pot. I bought six or seven more group buy moulds based on my experience with the first, and none have cast as well. I think I have at least the 311407, 311440, 432-250, 6.5 mm Kurtz, and one eack of the BD45 and BD45CM that haven't yet been tried. Maybe I need to get an electrician to wire the garage for 220 so I can pull the Magna out of retirement, but I don't think the pot had much to do with it. When MM is back in business I think I'll order a 220-230 grain version of the Lee 180 for the 356 Win and be done with it.
Tony

[Slowpoke]

My group buy Lee 358-180 FN is the most difficult casting critter in my inventory. I have used it during four or five different sessions, both ladle and bottom pour. It has been cleaned, Leemented, cleaned before every session, has set screws to hold the pivot and sprue hold-down in place, and still refuses to produce consistently good boolits. I ladle poured a few hundred yesterday and inspected them today - more than a 50% reject rate, so they all went back in the pot. Cleaned everything again and tried the bottom pour today, and even went to the extreme (for me) of adding tin. I didn't get a single acceptable boolit. I put the mould in time-out for a year, and the bottom pour furnace will be right beside it. Tony

Yea, but did you try smoking it ? :)

[AnthonyB]

Yep, tried that too. Butane and wooden match have failed so far. This mould really needs a time-out.
Tony

[mattc]

if that is a 6 cavity it could spend its time out in my garage to see if I can get it to cast right, actually if you want to sell it I might be enterested

[45 2.1]

Yep, tried that too. Butane and wooden match have failed so far. This mould really needs a time-out.
Tony

Tony-
Sounds like one of these things: bad alloy, venting problem or more likely the mold still has preservative in the cavities. Try boiling the blocks for a half hour in detergent and see if its better.

I had an NEI four cavity mold that wouldn't cast worth beans because of the last condition. It took a long time to get whatever oil that was in the cavaties out.

[AnthonyB]

45 2.1, thanks for the idea. I'll combine beagling and boiling for one more session and see what happens.

Matt, it's yours if I decide to sell.
Tony

[AnthonyB]

OK, alloy isn't the problem. I broke out a NIB 429640 to cast up some samples for another member and got good boolits as soon as the mould warmed up. I boiled the offending group buy mould in Dawn and water while I was casting, and was very surprised to find it turn a very dark color, particularly in the cavities. I'm hoping this is a good thing?
Beagling and a final casting session may happen tomorrow.
Tony

[georgeld]

Maybe I rediscovered something the other day.

Got a couple new Lee's, a 2 and 6 hole .45's. Haven't warmed up the 6 holer yet.

The 2 is a 250gr REAL bullet, both the same.

They cast good the first session of about 300 or so. Very few rejects.

Second time the propotIV was dispensing about half flow. Seemed to run good, so I kept casting. Fluxing & scraping the insides. Tripped and adjusted the needle many time's and just couldn't get it to flow.

Had over 50% scrap.

I hate to stick things up into the jet. Just had this pot rebuilt a yr ago because I wrecked it doing that.
Finally I got a piece of aluminum welding rod and pushed it up in the jet while it was flowing. Sure enough that did the trick and it's back to making good 'uns everytime.

This might be something to keep in mind. You've gotta have a full, or near full flow or they won't fill out all the way, at least that's the case this particular time.

Wish you well,

George