annealing rimfire jackets

[Danth]

Hi All: After much reading, I find it preferrable to anneal the top of the case only, leaving the base as is. I have a small heat treating oven and thought I'd try this: Machine a block of steel or aluminum 1/2" thick with a series of holes to accept the jackets, with about 1/4" of the jacket sticking out. Heat up to about 500 degrees and quench. My thinking is that the block will keep the bases cooler than the jacket tops if I remove before the heat brings the temp of the block up to the jacket temp. Think this will work? Do you think steel would be better than aluminum? thanks for any suggestions. Danth

[ANeat]

I know what youre saying Danth, Honestly I couldnt say if it would work or not. Might be nice if you had a block of insulating material you could stick the jackets into instead of a metal.

I think if you did that it may be quicker to just pass over the jackets with a torch.

I just recently got a small HT oven myself, I was just figuring I would batch anneal the entire jacket.

[MIBULLETS]

Danth, I am curious why you don't want to anneal the entire jacket? I have shot both annealed and unannealed jackets made from 22 cases and really have not noticed a difference. The only part annealing really helps with is closing the tip of the bullet up more without folding the brass. Maybe there is something I don't know. Could you explain your reasons more?

[ANeat]

He may be refering to something like this.

Hickory does some very nice work

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=821539&postcount=1

[Danth]

Yes, this is only one reference to annealing the case neck. Several posts have stated to just anneal the neck. There has been no explanation as to why the neck only. I'm wondering if I can anneal the whole case without problems. What do you think?

[ANeat]

Most I know anneal the entire case. As the case gets worked during core seating and nose forming it will harden up some. I experimented with annealing some before de-rimming and even one pass de-rimming makes the case noticeably harder.

The post I seen where Hickory showed his technique was the first mention I had seen of just annealing the top of the jacket.
He turns out some great looking bullets so its tough to argue with his results. Ive also seen great looking bullets from fully anealed cases so its possible either way.

Some guys anneal before de-rimming, some dont, I think there are a lot of variations in the process that all work. If a guy is turning out bullets that he is happy with thats all that matters

[bohica2xo]

I think Vernon Speer fully annealed a blue million rimfire cases, made bullets out of them & sold every one he made.

Honestly I don't see why everybody has so much trouble de-rimming 22LR's. If you fully anneal them before de-rimming, it is a one stroke job - with a 20 buck aluminum Lee press.

Once they are annealed, you begin cold working them as soon as the rim is ironed out. If they all start off fully annealed, the subsequent steps will always have the same effect on the brass. My die spits them out the top right at .2195 The base is thicker than the mouth, and already work hardening. Core seating stiffens them up a bit more...

B.

[ANeat]

B do you re-anneal or is once enough for the entire process?

[MIBULLETS]

I can anneal them faster if I do the whole case, thats the only real reason I see against doing just the neck for me. I have annealed them using a torch so just the necks were done but I'm sure the rest of the jacket got some too. I didn't notice any difference in performance though. One good thing about using the torch was that you could stop as soon as you see a change and the brass didn't get as discolored as it does doing them all as a batch.

I have heard many people on both sides of the fence about annealing after or before derimming. I for one do it after, since they push through my die much harder if I anneal them first. It must have something to do with the die angles or tolerance between the punch and die. I would try it both ways and see what works best for you and your set-up. Try it all three ways and let us know what you find out.

[bohica2xo]

B do you re-anneal or is once enough for the entire process?

Just once, at the beginning. All of the brass starts at the same hardness that way.

Perhaps you could stuff some play-dough in your die & take an impression of the lead & land. I would be interested to see why this is such an issue for some.

B.

[JohnM]

I think its more important to look at the type of brass you get. Some is very brittle and doesn't swage very well. Most though can be swaged without annealing, though this does take more effort, wears Dies faster and I don’t think you get as good a jacket…

Has anyone noticed on some of the finished R/F jackets have broken away on the leading edges, which makes a poor Meplate?

John

[Danth]

Well, I annealed a batch of brass, various headstamps, and found several still folded at the point. Is this normal? Should one expect a few rejects? Each of the rejects were Federal's. Have any of you had trouble with Federal brass? Danth

[sagacious]

Well, I annealed a batch of brass, various headstamps, and found several still folded at the point. Is this normal? Should one expect a few rejects? Each of the rejects were Federal's. Have any of you had trouble with Federal brass? Danth
Danth,
My experience is that if there is a nick or tiny crack in the case mouth, you'll get a folded bullet point. Starting out, one should expect a few rejects.

I don't have any problems with Fed brass. I separate into batches by manufacturer and de-rim by batch. That gives me the most consistent de-rimming process.

[sagacious]

Has anyone noticed on some of the finished R/F jackets have broken away on the leading edges, which makes a poor Meplate?

John
I got some like that when I tried annealing before de-rimming. I reckon the brass can tear at the mouth when it's soft.

Each has his own way, but I do not anneal before de-rimming. My jackets come out looking like a commercial jacket, but brass colored. No wrinkle or line where the rim was. Die design no doubt also affects the jacket's consistency after drawing, but this is just what works best for me, and gives me the best finished product with the most consistent meplat.

[sagacious]

Once they are annealed, you begin cold working them as soon as the rim is ironed out. If they all start off fully annealed, the subsequent steps will always have the same effect on the brass.
B.

Different brass brands seem to require varying amounts of force to de-rim. Since one can measure the differences between brands by weighing the formed jackets, it seems likely that the different weights/thicknesses/hardnesses of brass result in more or less stress during drawing. That affects the post-drawn hardness to a varying degree, which increases with each cold-working step.

Not argueing, or trying to 'overthink' the drawing of fired 22lr range-salvage brass. Annealing after drawing just seems to give me the most consistent hardness in the finished bullet, or at least the most consistent "feel" during core-seating and point-forming, and best accuracy.

Keep on keeping on! :drinks:

[MIBULLETS]

Danith, I will only use federal brass if I have too. It de-rims harder, wants to stick to the punch more, and has a very coarse priming compound that seems to stick in the rim more when cleaning before de-riming. However, I have not had anymore problems point forming them compared to other brands. You will get some rejects, but the percentage should be fairly low. If you think your reject rate is too high, you may want to check another batch or check the annealing procedure.

What process did you use to anneal them?

[Danth]

HI: I used a heat treating oven, brought the temp up to 500 degrees and quenched in water. They weren't as soft as I thought they would be, so maybe I have to leave them in longer, or get them hotter. Too bad 90 percent of the brass I pick up is Federal! Danth

[MIBULLETS]

You might experiment with slightly higher temperatures too. I think somewhere I heard 600 degrees, but not sure. I do mine in a self cleaning oven, what I wouldn't give for a heat treating oven.

When mine are done you can really notice how soft they are by squeezing the mouth and compare it to a non-annealed one.

[runfiverun]

500 isn't hot enough to anneal brass.
up your temp.

[Dframe]

Interesting thread. I'll be joining the jacket makers if Corbin ever gets around to shipping my dies. 9 months and counting

[Danth]

runfiverun, you were correct. I increased the annealing temp and haven't had a reject since. No problem with Federals either. I heated up the jackets till they just started to glow dull red and quenched in water. They are noticeably softer. Thanks! Danth

[JohnM]

Danith, I will only use federal brass if I have too. It de-rims harder, wants to stick to the punch more, and has a very coarse priming compound that seems to stick in the rim more when cleaning before de-riming. However, I have not had anymore problems point forming them compared to other brands. You will get some rejects, but the percentage should be fairly low. If you think your reject rate is too high, you may want to check another batch or check the annealing procedure.

What process did you use to anneal them?

What MIBULLETS has posted I agree with, except like sagacious I don’t anneal before deriming.

I’m quite lucky as I run a smallbore range that I collect around a 1,000+ used SK cases a week. The brass is excellent to process and the odd other brands are easily identified and sorted when swaging. I have a small potters bench kiln for annealing my cases that runs around the 800deg mark. I then drop them into a mix of 70% methylated spirits 30% water. The water is to stop the meths catching fire. This idea came from a jeweller friend of mine and works a treat.

I had a few problems when I first started, but the only ones I throw out these days are when the edge of the case is damaged that I pick up when deriming. I’ve made and sold/shot around the 80,000 mark and gone though 1x homemade deriming die, we are just in the process of making a new one with different thinking.

John

[ANeat]

John if you havent tried it go with a de-rimming die that uses a drill bushing. Works well and is quick/easy to replace if needed

[JohnM]

No we haven't tried a drill bushing ANeat, makes a lot of sense

Thanks

John

[ANeat]

There are a few threads where guys made one in one form or another. 5mm drill rod for the punch and 7/32 drill bushing. Grinding more of a taper on the drill bushing and polishing makes the brass go thru a lot easier


Here is the one I made for a reloading press. Cap holds the bushing.

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=153&pictureid=1753

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=153&pictureid=1752

[JohnM]

Thank you ANeat, thats made the process very clear and saved me the trouble of working it all out...

John

[Danth]

Ok, maybe a stupid questin, but if the jackets form ok w/o wrinkles, is there any need to anneal them? Danth

[MIBULLETS]

Danth, they will work OK as long as you don't close the tip of finished bullet very much. Basically a big hollow point. If you try to close the tip too far it will fold over. They shoot fine unannealed, the balistic coaficient just won't be as good and they may need slightly more pressure in the core seating step to fully expand them, not much though.

[sagacious]

Ok, maybe a stupid questin, but if the jackets form ok w/o wrinkles, is there any need to anneal them? Danth

Annealing helps the process, and prevents a number of frustrations. MIB pretty much covered it.

Consider that if you want to form a sharp point on the bullet, the brass at the case mouth is going to get really work-hardened as it is drawn down. As it gets harder, it'll crack and the tip will fold over. Annealing prevents that.

[ofreen]

Back when I started, I did the torch thing, but found it too slow. I then went to the oven method, but found the annealing was inconsistent because of the variations in temperature in different parts of the oven. Plus my wife didn't care for the smell.

For 25 years or so, I've used the old Lee production pot for annealing. I cut the top off a pop can which then fits in the pot perfectly as a liner. That way i don't have to worry about getting the pot perfectly clean. I set the pot at the setting I use for most casting alloys, 6-1/2 to 7. I fill the pop can with cleaned and still wet cases, cover it with some foil, and plug it in. After 45 minutes or so, I unplug it and let it cool undisturbed. I settled on 45 minutes as that amount of time reliably dries out the brass. 30 minutes didn't quite cut it, believe it or not.

This process completely dries the brass and the degree of annealing seems ideal. I lose very few cases during de-rimming and a folded nose is rare. It works with any brand of brass I've used.

As for Federal brass, I prefer it. It is a little thicker. I use a lot of these bullets in AR's with 1/7 twists. The Federal jackets work well, while others (especially CCI) have a large number of in-flight failures.

[Jim_Fleming]

ofreen: stupid question...

Don't you have to remove the spout "plug/stopper" to get the can into the production pot?

Your method of annealing seems too simple (read that as too good) to be true! I'm saying that as a *high compliment, Sir.*

I'm in the middle of working up a batch of "Golden Bullets" and your idea/suggestion comes at a perfect time! I'll give your idea a heckuva trial!

Thanks, seriously!

[ofreen]

Don't you have to remove the spout "plug/stopper" to get the can into the production pot?



Yes, remove the two screws that hold the valve assembly onto the pot, take the assembly out and a 12 oz. pop can fits right in there.

[Jim_Fleming]

Trust me, I'm gonna start re-annealing my cases, ASAP!

Thanks, again, Sir!



Yes, remove the two screws that hold the valve assembly onto the pot, take the assembly out and a 12 oz. pop can fits right in there.

[ofreen]

Thanks, again, Sir!

You're welcome.

I can't take credit for the idea. I'm pretty sure I read about it somewhere way back when. The main thing I did different was to add the foil to cover the top. It seems to help keep temps consistent thoughout the pot, especially on top. Heavy duty foil is best.

[wonderwolf]

I anneal after I make them into jackets like others here. Heat them up into the 600's hold them there for a while and I don't bother to quench them. I will tumble them from there though until they are really nice and bright, core seat and point form and tumble again. If your doing a lot of bullets the path of least resistance is to just anneal en-mass in batches. I'm always looking for steps to cut out or combine and so far the only extra step I've kept was tumbling after annealing

[Dframe]

I've been wondering how the hell I was going to do the anealing thing. The kitchen oven didn't sound like my cup of tea, and a torch? Don't think so.
Thanks Ofreen for an incredibly clever idea. I have a production pot and will be going that route.

[ofreen]

You are welcome. The production pot method does cut down on a lot of monkey motion.