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hubel458
07-04-2006, 09:36 AM
I am visiter here. I have the means to test
how good big lead slugs work, as far as leading
barrels and terminal performance.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/redone.jpg

cherok9878
07-04-2006, 11:01 AM
welcome, hubel458, to the hallowed halls of casting. Most everyone here has experience overflowing, (not I). Expand somewhat on your latest endevor!
again..........welcome

hubel458
07-04-2006, 12:57 PM
Cherok- Two others and myself over on AR forums developed a
super 12ga Paradox type shotgun/rifle cartridge.We solved the problem of weak brass cases, by putting 12ga rims on bmg
brass, and using cases in couple guns full length.I put
mine in a Savage 210 in picture above, with heavy barrel and stock.We also tested shortened versions in NEF 12ga Ultra
Slug gun and 12ga Encore. Rob one of developers, who had
original idea and gave it the name 12Ga From Hell, has his
on a big Borchardt falling block.In the Savage I can get a hardened Dixie 730 gr slug out at 2700 and a hardened 600
gr out at 3000 fps.Ed

lar45
07-04-2006, 01:01 PM
Hi Ed, good to see you over here. Is that 12 FH built on the Savage action? Have you tried it with brass/copper bullets? What kind of pressures is it safe to? I haven't been to the AA big bore forum in awhile to keep up on it.
I believe that there are a few guys here that got 12 bore molds when www.mountianmolds.com was making them.
I tried lathe boreing a 12 bore mold, but didn't get very far. That was before I converted to CNC, but I never got back to it. My thought was to make lube grooves and driving bands in equal steps in a long/deep mold. Then make a base plug that could be moved up and down to make different weight bullets. Also the base plugs could be made for plain base or hollow base.
Here are some cast slugs that came out from 750 grain to over 2000.
http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/bullets/12ga-glued-01.jpg
They are definatly not pretty. I was getting lots of chatter when boring the mold, but have since tightened up the axis' when I did the CNC conversion.

How much reinforcement of the stock did you have to do?
Looks too cool.
later.

hubel458
07-04-2006, 01:52 PM
Lar- yes I used Savage 210 12ga action.Bolt has 3
locking lugs. I calculated what safe bolt thrust
is based on action thickness and hold loads to 35k psi.
Used heavy Pacnor barrel, gun is 25 lbs.Used a heavy weighted
maple stock ,w ith crosspins going through a steel
bedding block and a barrel ring at front of stock.
Tested Bridger 750 gr banded brass slugs to 2500 fps.
Rob got them to 3000 in Borchardt.Here is pic of 3
slugs in cases and bmg case with rim turned off, threaded for
the 12ga rims shown..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sht.jpg

hubel458
07-09-2006, 12:26 PM
Been testing 600 gr hollowpointe hardened slugs and here
is what one at about 2800 fps does to a 6 gal
pail of water.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/Shot%203.jpg

Bucks Owin
07-09-2006, 12:32 PM
Holey moley!

Now THAT'S "terminal performance"!!!

Dennis :drinks:

waksupi
07-09-2006, 02:53 PM
It hurts, just thinking of touching that one off. I do believe I could develop a serious flinch, shooting that one very much!

versifier
07-10-2006, 02:04 AM
At 25lbs, I wonder how much it does kick? I notice there's no recoil pad on it.... Those homemade artillary shells are impressive looking. I bet they'd stop a small imported car. How long are the finished cases? Have you used it on live game?

hubel458
07-10-2006, 02:53 AM
Cases are 3.85 inches long. The gun has a thick recoil pad,
proper shaped stock. 25 lbs, and it shoot easy.Haven't used
it on game. Maybe will deer hunt with slugs later.In a little while I will have a bunch
12ga rim pieces to supply those who can take them and
thread the case themselves.Rims are precision made
and if case has original rim turned down and stub
threaded 5/8 by 24, rims go on easy.Just add
loctite.Ed

cherok9878
07-10-2006, 12:25 PM
Ed!!!!!Shooting Deer with this round would equate to hunting squirrels with a .458. This thing would probably penetrate "TWO" Elephant lengthwise. You give a whole new meaning to BIG BORE! Knock your self out guy, please keep us informed of your progress. I would love to be present when this thing is touched off!!!

hubel458
07-13-2006, 03:33 AM
Got a Nef ultra slug gun using a shortened version of
our case.Got 600 gr hardened slug up to 2000 fps.
Not bad for NEF break action with weight added.
Being some guns need to much work
to fire bmg primers, it easier to
do the following with adapter bushings.
Here is picture of cases for primer
comparisons.1st is regular bmg
primer. 2nd is adapted to a shotgun primer.
3rd is adapted to large rifle primer.
Of the 2 adaptations, large rifle is
easier to do, just ream out pocket, thread in adapter, but adapting shotgun primer
you have to deepen the original primer
pocket a little, then thread and screw in
a bushing.These two primers give about
100 fps less than bmg primer.Ed.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/209.jpg

hubel458
07-15-2006, 12:44 AM
Anyone wanting to get into 12ga bigbore NEF shooting;
Nef 12ga Ultra slug gun at gunshop $225 US.Add weight to butt and forearm. Get a thicker pad.
Get a box of 10 brass cases from Rocky Mtn Cartridge
for 60 bucks. These cases use shotgun primers, have thick
base like our case, have thick sides to fit chambers
right, No chamber work needed, use as is.
As you fire these cases they work harden, and can go faster.
600gr at 1750 fps possible,at first.. that's 4000 ft lbs.Ed

guninhand
07-15-2006, 03:20 PM
Anyone wanting to get into 12ga bigbore Get a box of 10 brass cases from Rocky Mtn Cartridge
for 60 bucks. These cases use shotgun primers, have thick
base like our case, have thick sides to fit chambers
right, No chamber work needed, use as is.
As you fire these cases they work harden, and can go faster.
600gr at 1750 fps possible,at first.. that's 4000 ft lbs.Ed

hubel 458,

I have a fully rifled and magnaported barrel for my Benelli M1. How do you calculate max psi for that gun and the psi of a loaded round? What diameter slug do you use and who sells the mold? Could a Lee or Lyman 12ga mold be opened, and deepened, to get the right diameter and a heavier slug?

Should I go to A15.com big bore section for most complete answers?

hubel458
07-16-2006, 01:25 AM
WE figured heavy barreled NEF good for 20,000 psi
slow powder loads. Depending on muzzle thickness of
Benelli maybe 15,000 psi. There is guy in Greece
with Benlli Nova that is doing a heavy alloy barrel
which should take 25,000 psi.Formulas are real long and not simple to write out here.I will be getting some Rocky Mtn cases and get loads developed and chronoed and let folks know what
possibilities their guns have.I use hardened .730 cast
Dixie 600gr slugs. A casting expert I am not. I think molds
can be reamed out if needed.Others here will know
for sure.Ed.

guninhand
07-16-2006, 05:51 PM
Looks lik I'd have to stick with loading manual maximums for 3 inch slugs. Tks for reply.

Buckshot
07-18-2006, 12:04 PM
.................hubel458, welcome to the board. Yeesh! I wouldn't shoot one of those on a bet. Way cool looking though! So what do you do for fun? :-)

..................Buckshot

hubel458
07-21-2006, 11:52 PM
Buchshot-They shoot easy. They have proper weight
and balance..Testing stick powders in NEF, short version of our
case. Case is 3.07 inches long.
Using 600 gr hardened slugs. Got 1700 fps
with 215 gr of RL-25. Cases eject easy.Gun roars,
but is working good... Still tight.Ed

hubel458
07-25-2006, 12:18 AM
Testing Savage with long case-Got 2550 with
320gr WC-855H special ball.730 gr slug.
Same slug,
300gr of RL-25 got 2400. 300 gr of RL-22
got 2800. 280 gr of W-760 ball got 2900.
Will hold more 760, but pressures around 40k on last
two loads mentioned.Savage extracts easy,
bellers like a tank gun.Ed

hubel458
08-03-2006, 09:32 PM
We are going to test smooth bore slugs, made for that purpose by
Dixie Slugs.And will soon have a replica 1887 lever gun
to test our cases in.Modern forged reciever, able to
take high pressures.Ed

Dixie Slugs
08-05-2006, 06:38 PM
Hello Ed and All!....Ed, it lookd like you got here before Ole' Dixie Slugs! Greg pointed me this way and said the fellows here were a great group! Looks different than some places we have been, right?
Anyway, Cissey has your order of .730"-600 grs bullets ready to go and also count what you are/have been getting......seems like they all go out with some extra slugs!
As you know, all our stuff is tested in the "Bone Box" by John Linebaugh/Todd Corder of Cody. We will be sending some loaded Predator II's (.730"-600 gr. hard cast heat treated hollowbase) out there for testing. The .625"-500 gr loads tested even beyonf expectations.
It nice to be over here as thse folks will better understand what Big hard cast can do!
I am still trying to get the webpage updated and get the obsolete stuff off....this is the third and last time I am going to try!
Capt. Giddens has come abord Ole' Dixie and will be testing long range potential the .625"-500 gr load first. Five shots will cut each other out at our 50 yard range (the longest we have here at the shop) and I will post the results.
Regards to All.....James@Dixe Slugs

hubel458
08-11-2006, 12:37 AM
James-Slugs got here. Easily got 2000 fps with them in
NEF. They are 600 gr hardened hollwbase slug for smoothbore.
Cases eject easy.Should get more in NEF(about 2200)as we test
loads.Ed.

Dixie Slugs
08-11-2006, 09:48 AM
Ed and All........Those 600 grs bullets are what we load in the Predator II for rifled barrels. I don't advise their used in a smoothbore unless they are shot in a true cylinder barrel......no choke. They are too hard for other chokes!
However, in a smoothbore barrel that has been customized ........no choke and good sights, the make a awesome load. The balance is correct for point on impact from a smoothbore barrel, but they really shine in a rifled barrel.
We have tested them up to 1550'/" with Alliant Steel (within acceptable pressure) in our Remington Express 870's/Hasting barrels. In that weight gun, recoil is rather severe. We have established a velocity of 1450'/" as our standard. That velocity is a good balance of velocity/recoil in the average weight hunting gun. The bullet has a BC of .146 in case abyone wants to run up the trajectory on their computor program.
I am also concerned at some of the speculative velocity fogures that are being posted on some other forums! You and I know our chronos tell the real story!!!!!
I really think the people on this forum have a real world grasp on what a proper designed hard cast can do on game........others sure don't! Keep up the ggod work!
Regards to All, James@Dixie Slugs

georgeld
08-12-2006, 02:11 AM
hubel458:

Impressive machine work on those cases.

I've got a WVa. made barrel toward a .72 cal m/l, but, am hung up on getting the initial stock shaped.

The bore is: 38:1, .735" x 1 1/8" oct x 38" long and weighs a flat 7 pounds by itself. I also had him cut a foot off it to make a 12" pistol barrel to match for some ungodly off the wall brain fluctuation I had at the time. Beautiful bore's. Also, paid $25 extra per barrel to have them relief bored for loading ease.

Had a buddy bore out a Lee 1oz 12ga slug mold to .735". I forgot all about grease groove's so it's smooth sided w/rn. Hard cast 1115gr. With a really slick hollow point 1/8" deep x 3/8". The HP was a fluke as I cast the first one's without the sprue plate on, stuck the ProPot's nipple down in the hole and just as it set up, twisted the mold sideways and that formed the hollow point. What ever good a hollow point would do on a 3/4" dia slug I have no idea, but, it looks slick!! hehe!

Although I haven't made them. Have designed inserts for the base plate of differing thicknesses to make the slug shorter, or longer as desired. The Lee's center cavity set up locates on a ring groove near the bottom of the cavity. These inserts will have that ring to locate them, a center screw to hold them to bottom plates d&T on one side of the blocks bottom.

I've thought since the bore of the mold is smooth and exactly bore dia, it should be larger by a little bit. That I'd bore some light groove's in the mold's ID kind of like a REAL bullet, only very thin dia so as not to get too big for the bore til it's test fired. Can always enlarge them if needed.

Ed, IF you'd like to see one of these slugs, they are not very good casting as things were cold, but, you can get the good general idea. Just send your mailing address to my e/mail and I'll send you one to keep and study. It's my own design and I'd like to see the idea used so would be happy to share it. georgeld@hotmail.com

The barrel maker said to figure a max load for it: 250gr FFg and 1400gr slug. But, to start off light and build up til I can't stand the recoil, and he'd bet I'd be a lot less charge.

Here's a great link for BIG bore BP's;: www.octobercountry.com

They make only big m/l's, up to 2 bore, that's half pound round ball.

Have in mind the finished gun would be around 12-14lbs, stock will be hard Oregon Maple with a butt of 2" x 7 1/2" high and a nice thick pad. IF these things don't tame it down, will load it up with mercury reducers and weight. I talked to the guy that makes them and they've been wanting an excuse to make much larger one's than the 4 -8 oz jobs they supply to Brownell's.

Hope this gives some more ideas.

hubel458
08-13-2006, 02:16 AM
George- Thanks -I will give them a look.
And see if they can be hardened for high
speed.
James- Yes I will tell folks that the slugs
will need straight, no choke bores. I knew that
and assumed others would, but best to tell them.Ed

Dixie Slugs
08-13-2006, 07:16 AM
Ed and All.......Another interesting factor on the Dixie Predator II-600 gr bullet......This bullet was also designed, when cast from pure lead, also for use in the Pedersoli Double Muzzleloading .72 cal rifle. Since it is more or less squared, it groups at the regulation of the barrels in that gun. It works like a Minie in the gun when cast from pure lead.
Capt. Giddens will be testing the bullet at longer ranges in a custom rifled barrel within the next few weeks.
I see a growing interest in shooter/hunters casting/reloading for their rifled barrels. The Lee Key Slug (one ounce) has been tested and will work very good, if loaded correct, for most hunting situations in both rifled and smoothbore barrels. In rifled barrels the slug works best when cast hard and using a Federal 12S3 wad. Straight wheelweights are plenty good enough in most cases. However, when hunting wild hogs, I suggest they be heat treated. Reloading this Lee Key Slug, the shooter/hunter can keep his cost down and practice more.
The main thing is to open up another use of cast bullets, besides handguns and rifles.......Regards, Janes@Dixie Slugs

hubel458
08-24-2006, 02:18 AM
We are getting a big replica 1887 12 ga levergun,
to test our cases in. Looks like fun.Ed.

charger 1
08-25-2006, 07:47 AM
Well I'll be hated for this. But gotta say it. The more boards I see this on the more I think thats pretty much all its good for. The NEF I have Ed that I carry over my shoulder at 5.5 pounds and hurls a .620" 7/8 ounce bluforce at 2060 for one holers at the 100 is not likely to be seen on every board blowing buckets up right beside them,but is very likely to be seen in the field. Like I told you on gunnuts,before internet I plugged a big piece of 1" wall tubing and built a 4" punt gun that mounted in my truck(which used to rock when fired) and splatter a field of geese at 100+ yds. It soon ended up in the scrap. I guess if we'd a had dig cams and forums back then it mighta got a bit more useage,but still ended up in the same place. Welcome just the same. You seem like an intelligent fella....

hubel458
08-25-2006, 08:04 PM
I just do this for fun. I Don't have time to hunt.
Would only hunt if the game was such that it needed
huge power.Just finding what is possible is the
hobby. Like shooting holes in cars with BMGs, you can't
eat it, but sure is a blast.Ed

charger 1
08-25-2006, 08:24 PM
I just do this for fun. I Don't have time to hunt.
Would only hunt if the game was such that it needed
huge power.Just finding what is possible is the
hobby. Like shooting holes in cars with BMGs, you can't
eat it, but sure is a blast.Ed

Everybody needs a hobby:kidding:

9.3X62AL
08-25-2006, 08:58 PM
Yes, welcome aboard Hubel!

Now, this is just totally cool. I wouldn't want to drag around a 25# deer rifle, but having spent a week shooting Foster and Brennecke slugs out of Rem 870's with 14" and 18" barrels, I think my "leading edge 12 gauge technology" curiosity element got satisfied sufficiently.

When I feel the need for this sort of entertainment, I just warm up some 45-70 handloads and fetch along the Ruger #1. That cures me.

Dixie Slugs
08-26-2006, 11:34 AM
I think some have overlooked what Ed has accomplsihed with his experiments. I see little difference is seeing how high the envelope can be pushed with hard cast heated slug/bullets in 12 bore......than the same experiments with the huge hand cannons being touted on various forums.
For one thing......Ed has buried forever the idea that a cast bullet (of proper design) is limited in velocity! He has also proven that a properly loaded 12 bore is only limited to one's recoil tolerance. He has also proved that certain lubes work!
Ed has bever said he was recommending his work for the hunter.......only showing his results.
I remember back when a lot of people thought Elmer Keith was nuts!........who needed a handgun for hunting? Times have show changed since then!
The general publis have no idea of the questions I recieve from various law enforcement groups abour ammo for 12 bore type firearms, hand held and mounted.
Everything for use one barricades (like cinder block walls) to Fiberglass Dope Boats!
So........I say to Ed......Kepp going!.........Regards, James@Dixie Slugs

cherok9878
08-26-2006, 01:22 PM
Just my own personal thoughts.......I think what Ed is doing is interesting. He is taking a process to the very limit of endurance and recording his findings. I can't think of the guy's name, and girl, that flew around the earth nonstop. The plane that was used has brought new ways of building aircraft wings to the fore front.
There is probably a nich somewhere in law enforcement or the military that Ed's work would fit in nicely. I would still like to be present when that thing is touched off..................larry

wills
08-26-2006, 01:41 PM
Dick Rutan and Jeana Yeager
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burt_Rutan

Dixie Slugs
08-26-2006, 01:44 PM
How true! If there were not those that pushed the envelope, where would we be?
Of course, I have other reasons to be interested in Ed's work. He has proven beyond a doubt that Dixie's alloy, heat treating, and lube will work far beyond the velocity levels of what we make/ship to our customers. This is of the most utmost importance when dealing with dangerous game.........Dixie's goal in loads!
Regards, James@Dixie Slugs

hubel458
08-26-2006, 11:02 PM
Fellow above proved the point. Stating a 7/8 oz at
over 2000 fps was the thing, but remember for
years a 1 oz foster at 1200 was all we had,
in slugs for 12 ga........No one felt threatened by
increasing performance to 2000 fps with 7/8 oz.Ed

jar-wv
08-27-2006, 12:52 AM
Can't see much of a NEED for it, but I'm kinda facinated by it, much like the fascination of the guy that climbs skyscrapers with a suction cup. "cause it's there". Also seems like a good opurtunity for Dixie Slugs to get in a bunch of plugs.

jar

charger 1
08-27-2006, 03:46 AM
Fellow above proved the point. Stating a 7/8 oz at
over 2000 fps was the thing, but remember for
years a 1 oz foster at 1200 was all we had,
in slugs for 12 ga........No one felt threatened by
increasing performance to 2000 fps with 7/8 oz.Ed

In a useable form [smilie=1:

hubel458
08-28-2006, 01:51 PM
My regular chamber length setup in NEF getting
600gr at 2000 is easy to use, just add 3
lead bars to the butt.Comes from factory with
a steel bar in butt.With our cases much
better power compared to plastic. And cases can
be reloaded many times.Ed

BluesBear
09-01-2006, 05:43 AM
Since when does NEED matter?

It's desire that holds the greatest importance? :mrgreen:

hubel458
09-05-2006, 01:25 AM
We are testing a replica 1887 12ga
levergun. Has 2 3/4 inch chamber.
Forged heat treated action. Nice gun.Cases
are cut back to 2.45 inches, the same length as plastic cases
crimped.That allows feeding from magazine.
First testing got 600 gr over 1600 in short barrel. Here is
picture. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/1887.jpg

charger 1
09-05-2006, 06:50 AM
Thats good Ed,those actions will take a lot of back pressure

hubel458
09-07-2006, 11:06 PM
Charger- Yep and everyone here just loves the style of
the 1887. To use brass cases and feed from magazine we cut cases back to 2.45 inches, same length as 2 3/4 plastic cases
when they are loaded and crimped. Still can get good power.Some have reported that longer brass cases
feed from mag on old original 87s but I don't know how yet. Going to work on it.Probably will rig up another
one with long barrel, I don't like short barrels.Ed

The Cod Father
09-09-2006, 01:21 AM
I just read this through and all I have to say is ,Holy smack'n arseholes !!!
That looks like just more fun than you will be allowed without having to pay for it . I have given thought to the design of heavy 12 bore shooters before but my shoulder sterts to hurt and I stop , congrats for seeing it through . To the people who say what is the NEED of developing this firepower for , well since when has NEED ever had anything to do with getting a bigger , faster gun !!!!!!
I will definately be following this , I knoiw I have an action here someplace that just needs to be reworked into one of these thumpers . Now to just find a Moose !!!

TCF

Dixie Slugs
09-09-2006, 06:21 AM
Friends All......At the risk of being accused of hawking a product, I must say that the slug/bullets in Ed's and my products are cast Boolits........albeit rather large ones!
There is a fast growing interest in ultra large slug/bullets in both smoothbore and rifled shotgun bore size. It really is nothing new, since the Brits used about the same as Dixie's in Africa and India.
Today's reloader can put together some pretty impressive rounds, if they stay with the Brit's concept.......instead of getting carried away with sabot rounds.
Even a full bore size .715" round ball, cast hard and heat treated, will take most game in the world......as the Brits proved. Velocity can be run very high in a smoothbore with allowable pressure! Accuracy with a ball that fits the bore will surprise many and can be great within normal hunting didtances.
Ed has raised the bar up high when it comes to shotgun bores! Some will ask why? The answer is simple to me, it was there to do!
Where Ed like the 12 bore lever gun, Dixie like the All American Pump Gun and single shots......the basic Remington 870 Express with a Hastings 20" rifled barrel and the NEF Ultras. These are plain "Meat and Potato Guns"!
Best Regards, James@Dixie Slugs

hubel458
09-09-2006, 07:41 PM
As I tell guys here tied to shotgun only deer hunting
a heavier blunt slug with the **** behind it will
get you good 150-200 yd shooting, but being blunt
loses long range velocity so as not to be the real
long range danger to homes, cars, livestock,other hunters in
built up areas. And those slugs make good kills on
big game like deer, hogs, bear,
being a harder slug than old stuff used to be.Ed.

StarMetal
09-09-2006, 07:48 PM
I lived in Ohio for spell. It's a shotgun only for deer season. Boy and I just hate shotguns except for rabbit hunting. Anyways I bought me an TC inline and that solved the shotgun only hunting just as well as a 30-06 could have in my opinion. Elsewhere in the forum I mentioned a single shot H&R rifled 20 gauge slug gun that I scoped and made special copper jacketed slugs for. I'll bet it was pretty close performance wise to the slugs you speak of.

Joe

Dixie Slugs
09-09-2006, 09:03 PM
Since a great deal of the good folks here load their own 12 gauge slugs, I would like to say that the Lee Key Slug (437.5 grs), cast from WW and heat treated, loaded in a Federal 12S3 wad (with one 20 ga nitro wad in the plastic wad under the sluf)......loaded with AA5......will by far surpass the common lead Foster slug.
As for 20 gauge/bore......why shoot an undersize pistol bullet in a sabot, when there are full bore .625"-500 grs solids@1450'/" available? The NEF Ultras in 20 gauge/bore guns are setting new standards as far as what to expect for a 20! In fact, the mentioned load is more powerful than the original military load in the .45-70.
It's all how people perceives things.....put that menetioned load in a brass cases, and they would call it a buffalo/bif game load!
As I have said many times, " Put a rifled barrel on a shotgun and you have an ultra bore rifle on a shotgun frame!"
Reloaders that like to cast their own boolits, should get a Lee mold and do some testing........Regards, James@Dixie Slugs

BluesBear
09-10-2006, 03:28 AM
ALmost 30 years ago I was given one of the old Lee Loaders. I did some experimenting loading 2.25oz steel ball bearings that would just barely fit inside a 12ga Remington Power Piston.
Luckily I was shooting them from a 3" magnum chamber.
Recoil was excessive.
Trajectory was considerable.
But at 25 yards it would penetrate two bales of hay wall AND a concrete block garage wall.

Don't ask me how I know this. [smilie=1:

Dixie Slugs
09-10-2006, 09:49 AM
Wonderful! That brings back memories of our clay drain pipe mortar, blackpowder, and green oranges. We would bury part of the pipe in the sand and get about three shots before the pipe cracked. We got our butts whipped because the green oranges were coming down out of the sky onto the grove pickers!
It's a wonder we all grew up......or got old!
Regards, James@Dixie Slugs

BluesBear
09-10-2006, 11:03 AM
Yikes! I just realized that it was OVER 30 years ago when that happened.
Where did my life go?

charger 1
09-10-2006, 02:10 PM
Wonderful! That brings back memories of our clay drain pipe mortar, blackpowder, and green oranges. We would bury part of the pipe in the sand and get about three shots before the pipe cracked. We got our butts whipped because the green oranges were coming down out of the sky onto the grove pickers!
It's a wonder we all grew up......or got old!
Regards, James@Dixie Slugs


Ya we was doin the same thing here with potatoes. lobbing them over the highway. Funny how it only took one mile high spud landing on the hood of one 1974 monte carlo to through a wrench into the thing....Some folk will whine over the smallest things

BluesBear
09-11-2006, 12:22 AM
For us it was the trebuchet we built in 1967 to hurl showballs.

Who knew we could actually clear the treeline between us and the highway?

The Cod Father
09-11-2006, 12:32 AM
I think mine was the gun my cousin and I built that fired model rocket engines !!!!

O.K. maybe it wouldn't have been so bad if we haden't stuffed the front with homemade BP that went off when the charge that was supposed to blow out the parachute ignited!!!

waksupi
09-11-2006, 12:45 AM
For us it was the trebuchet we built in 1967 to hurl showballs.

Who knew we could actually clear the treeline between us and the highway?

Bluesbear, you have once more re-ignited a project in me. The neighbors better look out! I imagine one, built from springy lodgepole pine, should get some serious range! Only problem is, how am I going to check velocity with the chrony, and what lube should I use? Wish I would have made one thirty years ago, when I lived in the midwest. Those old hedge apples, would have been formidible projectiles!

BluesBear
09-11-2006, 11:35 AM
I had a friend who did the model rocket thing.
Aafter a few firings and retrievals they'd get to looking kind of ratty.
That's when we'd load a cherry bomb cluster in place of the 'chute!

Really awsome on a two-stager! :twisted:

Dixie Slugs
09-11-2006, 04:17 PM
Excellent! We kinda got off track on ED's post........But it sure shows that we are all form the same "Tribe"......Regards to All, James

BluesBear
09-11-2006, 04:57 PM
Yeah, sorry for the thread drift.

I received one of the Interstate 1887 replica shotguns as a birthday gift.
It is one stout sonovagun. Built like a tank.

I have read in magazines as well as the Coyote Cap site about how strong these actions are. I was thinking of having mine rechambered to 3" or even 3½".
The longer shells may not feed but single loading them would be no problem.
Besides the extra chamber length would make standard buckshot a little softer shooting.

And I've been wondering if the '97 trenchgun handguard would fit? :mrgreen:

http://files.photojerk.com/BluesBear/1887RiotGunw-M1917.jpg



Hubel458,
I'm very interested in some of those converted .50BMG 12 gauge casings.
What's the price for complete full length cases setup for large pistol/rifle primers?

hubel458
09-11-2006, 10:19 PM
I plan on putting long heavy barrel on one also and use
our full length 3.85 in case. Make my own chamber as I
did on Savage.Will go singleshot and fill mag with weight, put on stronger stock and big pad.I only have
a few cases to part with and if a heavier v-spring
for hammer can be found it may be possible
for me to do it using bmg
primers. I don't have the time to change cases to
smaller primers. But I can tell you how change them over.
I hope to have a big bunch of rim pieces so others
can get them and make cases themselves. And like
I say I can tell them how to change primer.But
it a bunch of work.

Now I understand that Rocky Mtn does make 3.5 inch cases
for about 6 bucks each, with shotgun primers
and thick bases. And Shotgun primers are little stronger
than large rifle primers . Rocky Mtn cases will go too
35,000 psi ok, giving you all the recoil in 3.5 in case
you can stand.And 35,000 should be the top
regular working load for 87 with heavy barrel.
That's what I recommend.

I get 10 bucks for mine with
bmg primers, a slug, and shipping. Ed.

hubel458
09-16-2006, 02:59 AM
I got Rocky Mtn turned 12ga cases, and am
developing loads. They are 2 7/8 inches
long are for use in NEF and shortened
in 1887. These cases have shotgun
primers. Now these cases with shotgun primers and the two cases of ours we put small primers in don't fire the slow rifle powder loads
reliably,like cases with bmg primers.
Our testing is with 600 hardened Dixie slugs.
So I have and am testing slow shotgun powder and fast rifle.I tested 5 shotgun powders and
the primers fires then ok but the quick peak pressure when loads increased to get velocity
wanted in NEF caused too much case expansion just ahead of the base.Cases ejected ok but
that expansion and resizing will ruin cases
in a couple shots.These cases have a real thick base, and are machined to glass smooth finish.Nice cases.
I now testing AA1680 Ball and it looks good.
Have got loads up to 105 gr with 2 wads in
the Rocky Mtn case, and only .002 expansion
of case ahead of base. Will chrono next and
expect it to get velocity we want in NEF.
Nice thing about this testing is that same loads will work in shortened 87 case by just
using less wad column.Ed

hubel458
09-22-2006, 12:26 AM
Testing Rocky Mtn cases in NEF.Got 1850 fps
with 125 gr AA 1680 and 132gr of RE-7.
And long barrel would get over 2000.
Cases are 2.9 after 3 firings. AA 1680
load had .135 card wad and 2 1/2 in lubed felt
wads, and RE-7 load had same card and
a 1/2 and a 1/4 lubed wad. Re-7 less dense.
Base expansion ahead of thick base was
.002 to .003 and resized without huge effort.
The base is .300 thick, case has shotgun primers. By the way I put primers in with
bmg primer post. Works good. Next we cut back
some cases for the 87 levergun.About same
loads used in NEF minus wads worked.
I also felt now that having found loads that
get velocity without a huge expansion to
the turned cases(that can't take pressures like
our cases built from bmg brass), that good low base plastic
would do the same velocity, in strong alloy
barreled guns, so I tested plastic with 600 gr
hardened Dixie slugs, the last 3 days along
with turned Rocky Mtn cases, and a good result.
Plastic does as good as turned case loads in NEf.
And 100 gr Re-7 in 87 gets 1600 in plastic case.
We load plastic in 87 down due to base expansion
just ahead of rim in two spots due to extractor
cutouts. With heavy barrel we will change cutouts.
If it had long heavy barrel you could get over 2000.
The plastic will get all the potential that NEF
and 1887 with long heavy barrel added
can deliver with RE-7 type loads. And plastic is
a 100 times more available.And with regular primers so
gun doesn't have to be worked over for big primers.Ed

Dixie Slugs
09-22-2006, 10:18 PM
Hello Ed and All......I'm glad to see those Dixie slug/bullets are holding up fine for your experiments. Is our Alox wash still working at those velocities? They were lubed with an upgaded (and more expensive) Alox......I like it even better! Cissey is still handling the heat treatment and has got it nailed down good........one hour at 450 degrees and quenched in 70 degree water. The hardness seems very uniform slug/bullet to bullet.
Keep up the great testing! Regards To All, James

hubel458
09-23-2006, 12:08 PM
James- Yes the new alox is great. No leading at all and it is
clean, and not messy. That point design on 600gr is great for
roll crimping in plastic case. And as you can see with
heavy strong shotguns they get Nitro Express power. Ed

Dixie Slugs
09-23-2006, 04:30 PM
Ed, thank you for the feed back! Yes, I also like that truncated cone and it does increase the BC for longer range. Regards, James@Dixe Slugs

hubel458
09-28-2006, 12:41 AM
Yes the 600 is nice slug. Doing roll crimp is a problem when
you don't have the shotgun reloading experience. Now I take cases and cut off old crimped top part, load it up and
put little pressure on slug( it's down in case a little)
and use a glue gun.Works great.Ed.

BluesBear
09-28-2006, 01:40 AM
The roll crimp tool from BPI is designed to be used in a drill press but it works quite well in a regular cordless drill.

The problem I envision with using a glue gun would be the same as a loose crimp on a metallic cartridge...

You need enough resistance to allow the powder charge to get a good light before the projectile startes moving. Which in turn will give you more consistent velocities which in turn will give you better accuracy.

Dixie Slugs
09-28-2006, 07:24 AM
With the truncated cone 600 gr slug/bullet you need to have it deeper in the hull than a regular flater nose design. That gives more hull to roll down on the nose taper. It took a little playing around here to get the rolled crimp correct.....James

hubel458
09-28-2006, 11:52 AM
In brass cases I size them down to make a good
tension fit on bullet, so there has been no problems.
Doing crimp when your experimenting is a pain, because column length is different for powders etc. So I just
keep slug inside as James mentions, a couple dabs glue
push slug down on the card or card and wad for
a minute and it is in locked tight.I will look into getting
that roll crimp tool.Ed.

hubel458
09-29-2006, 11:12 PM
Tried one more 1050gr slug in the Savage. Got 2600 fps
and put a slight crack in the stock.Repaired ok for my
lesser loads.Will whittle out a thumbhole stock
for it sometime from one of big blanks I have..Ed.

hubel458
10-01-2006, 12:50 AM
The barrel on 87 will be replaced soon. The barrel has
a 1.1 inch x 26 thread. Shank is .9 in long. That is more
than a lot of big rifles.Weighted gun to 12 lbs and it will be
14 when heavy barrel is on it.ED

hubel458
10-05-2006, 11:32 PM
I'm doing a long chamber in the NEF. Just lengthening
the present 3 inch chamber .The base size of
the regular chamber in NEF is max dimensions,
and in my Savage I have a smaller minimum size.
It wworks grear with long case. So for brass
use in the NEF I honed out a base die bigger to
match NEF size, then it won't over work brass
and it maybe only will need sizing once in every 20 shots, and with the proper fit resizing will be easier.And
my other base die does Savage.Same
top die will do both top halves. Ed

hubel458
10-08-2006, 02:55 AM
Got the NEF chambered for long case. And remember it
has beefed up hammer for bmg primers used in our case.
Got 2500 fps with 600 gr slug, cases eject out real easy,
8300 ft lbs from an NEF with 24 inch barrel.If you set up
NEF to use regular primers adapted to our case or
have Rocky Mtn make a long case you can do it without
a lot of work on the hammer and springs. Just use a
flake shotgun powder as a starter powder above the
primer, which how 700 NE and others are loaded.
Use 10 gr of flake and cut regular load 40 gr and
work up if pressures allow.Ed.

hubel458
10-12-2006, 01:16 AM
Good news I got the 1887's hammer beefed up so
it fires the bmg primers in our case.
We will be testing small primers, with starter powder
in plastic and Rocky Mtn cases using RE-12 and 15 powders.
I think they will do better than RE-7 and have
less case expansion.Ed

hubel458
10-14-2006, 12:37 AM
I got the hammer on 87 beefed up to fire big primers.
Still testing plastic and turned cases in 87.
We are testing small primers with 10gr starter powder(Blue
Dot) anD RE-7 and 15.Plastic cases max is 90gr RE-7 with
10 gr starter, turned brass case 110gr RE-7 10 gr starter.
WE had to go to starter powder as we was getting
delayed ignition and squib loads.
Testing the cases,plastic and brass with small
primers and starter powder ... A big find. IE we can't do
this for reliable ignition if the cases
are ballon head, whether plastic or brass.The cases must have the area between side and
the pprimer at least .200 thick.One reason is
strength. And some plastic I have measured is
only about .060 thick there and the protrusion
in the center for primer is .140 above that
thickness.. So 10 gr of starter powder is
in a groove so to speak and not on top of primer!!! That isn't good. I cut the cases
off at the brass base, poured in 10 gr
of flake powder and saw how it laid
in the case. Nice thing is that a most brands of cases are thick enough, like Win AAs.
So far RE-15 and Blue Dot starter looks
very good, and easy on cases.Velocity as good as RE-7.Will keep testing and I ran out of
RE-12 and the shops have no more, So
it will be RE-15 which I think turning
out best, or RE-7 in smaller
amounts.Ed.

BluesBear
10-14-2006, 02:57 AM
What methods are you using to insure that the "starting" powder is staying next to the primer and not mixing in with the main propellant?

hubel458
10-17-2006, 01:02 AM
I keep the case setting level and pour in the other powder
real slow, so as not to move starter powder away from primer.
And also put card, and wads if needed, tight along with
slug. I sectioned a low base loaded plastic and the starter
powder was in right place. Ed

hubel458
10-20-2006, 02:24 AM
Results of RE-15 testing in plastic cases.
600 gr hardened Dixie slug and 10gr
of Blue dot starter powder in both lengths.
In Nef, 3 inch case is about 2.6 crimped,
and 120 gr RE-15 max load. In 1887, 2.75 inch
cases are about 2.35 crimped, 110 gr RE-15
max load. In 2.75 case thats all it will
hold,with card wad, in longer make up space with wads.The reason I'm checking plastic is so many shotgun reloading guys want more power for big game, and they are set up to
load plastic.
Greg clued me in on another powder that may do the job without starter powder
and be slow enough to get velocities up
without to much pressure. It's IMR SR-4759.
Will have some in couple days.I made contact
to get some of these loads pressure tested,
to check my pressure calculations..Ed.

hubel458
10-25-2006, 03:17 AM
Been testing IMR-4759. No ignition problems.
Ignition is instant with regular primers.
Don't need Blue Dot starter powder.
Plastic cases first.600 gr slug. I got a
nice working roll crimper attachment
for drill press for crimping slugs.
That sure makes it easy, and perfect crimp.
In 2 & 3/4 plastic cases with loaded
length of about 2.35 inches got to 80gr.
That's max as you must leave room for
about 3/8 wads or cushion wad. Some cases
may only hold 75 grains max due to
the case construction.Powder is less dense
than RE-15. 1650 plus fps in 24 inch barrel.
In 3 inch cases, loaded length about 2.6
inches, got to 95 grs max, 1800 plus fps.
Some cases may only hold 90 gr due to
case construction. Cushion is
a half inch felt wad or equivalent.
Both lengths start down and go up
if pressures allow. 60 gr short case,70 long.
This powder being faster than RE-15 you must
have a little cushion in the way of felt wads
or plastic cushion wads.With slower RE-15
a card wad works ok as powder started slower.
The powder burning must build pressure
to open crimp with out a high pressure spike.
This bulky powder with reliable ignition
is a winner.Then we tested 3" Rocky Mtn brass
cases, Got max load of 105 gr, and 1900 plus
fps. In few weeks will get the 4759 and RE-15
loads pressure tested.Ed

Greg5278
10-25-2006, 11:18 AM
Ed, I told you it would work. Plus there is no need for the starter powder.
I just want to know the pressure results.
Greg S

hubel458
10-25-2006, 07:59 PM
Greg-Thanks for the help.We will let everyone know
the pressures and velocities from Tom's
equipment.Ed.

hubel458
10-28-2006, 01:30 PM
Now these loads are for only heavy barreled
steel action guns like the NEF Ultra 12,
or like my Savage with heavy barrel added.
I am getting heavy barrel on the 87 and
it will be long.There are some turn bolt
locking lug pumpguns that would work
with heavy barrels.There is a large
12ga Tula bolt action, but it's not imported.
This week if weather allows(no rain)
I will be firing first test loads of my
700HE long belted case.Ed.

hubel458
11-01-2006, 12:05 AM
I want to see this scaled up to take
700HE, 12ga FH, 700NE, 50bmg, Rob's 700, etc,
or even 4bore, 8bore,20mm, 900HE.Anyone else
interested jump in. Were going to give it
a try. Ed.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/wic.jpg

Lloyd Smale
11-01-2006, 05:52 AM
hell i think this is real fasinating. I still remember when they said that the 44 mag was not needed and was to powerful to shoot. Now were shooting .475s and .500s and there not even top of the food chain in power. Alot of guys are in shotgun only hunting areas and im sure some of this technology will translate into better slug loads for the avearge guy. I think a high velocity flat shooting 20 guage heavy load with a hardcast would be neat too!

hubel458
11-02-2006, 09:23 PM
Found an O/U that would handle the 4759 3"
loads. It is the Zoli Z-Sport. Expensive,
all alloy steel construction, tested to
about 100k. That's not a missprint.Their
site shows testing at the Italian proof house
of 8000 bar.That's 7-8 times regular shotgun
working loads.Pic of action below. It handling that extreme pressure, means that other quality
O/U like Ruger may handle 4759 loads.Ed

http://www.zoli.it/america/images_z/z_espedition2.jpg

hubel458
11-04-2006, 07:18 PM
I get questions about whether the IMR 4759
loads aren't to high pressure.Even for NEF.
Well in Nef the REM factory Buckhammer
slug load, expands the base of the case
more than my 90gr, 4759 load. And I get
more speed, in the same kind of
Rem case.And pressure testing will tell us
for sure what we have wrought..Ed.

hubel458
11-11-2006, 03:12 AM
am working on
scaling up falling block to handle
700NE, 600Ne. 12ga FH, etc.We wanted to go to bigger 4bore size copy of Wickcliffe
but the short hammer carried on the breech
is too light to fire big primers.and hammer spring can't be made heavier either.So I am
drawing one scaled up to 12ga and 700NE size.
If used with our 12ga FH case will have to have
primer bushing........
SO- today the boy and I set up a mill.
And we along with old machinist guy couple miles away will build a model scaled up with
basic action and breech block designed to work with lever,toggle link. 1.25" barrel thread.

And for the 4bore size falling block, the
HSFB, 1.5 barrel thread, 2' wide action we
will combine a little from Stevens 44 1/2,
Ruger #1, Win 85, Sharps highpower falling
block. The Wickcliff copies a lot in its breech
from the Stevens.We will use a big hammer in the
rear of action with heavy springs,
to fire big primers. Half cock safety.Those
we appropriated from other break actions and
along with trigger and a lever are on
the way from
Gun Parts.Ed.

hubel458
11-13-2006, 02:06 AM
Hot Damn- Test Results of 4 plastic cases.
Rem high base 3" case, with 600 gr
Dixie hardened slug. Roll crimped with
crimper in drill press. All 4 loaded with
90 gr of 4759. We have a winner.
Average velocity of 4 -- 1938 fps
Average pressure of 4 -- 14, 575 psi.
tested with transducer test ing setup,
in 30 inch barrel,In my 24" NEF I got 1800+.
Cases fell out of his test chamber like they did out of
my NEF.And with some cases I can get in 95gr,
that I figured with my math would
have 15k psi.So my math and developement is
OK.And 4800 ft lbs, thats neat with plastic.
Tom says this load will do in any gun that handles
the 2 oz factory magnum goose loads
that test about 13,600 to 14,000.And 4759
will give slower time to peak pressure, thus
will be easier on cases than magnum goose loads
or the hot factory Buckhamer slug loads
I fired, that expanded cases as much or more
than our 4759 loads.Ed

hubel458
11-16-2006, 02:22 AM
Buckhammer 3 "factory loads are 15k psi.
A 2.75 inch case with 80 gr of 4759, a thin card wad,
a 3/8 cushion lubed felt wad, when crimped is about
2.4 inches long, with 600gr Dixie slug. Based on
pressures recorded in previous post for 3 inch case
and 90gr of 4759, they will run about 13,400 psi,
and work through modern guns.Another load tested with
same bullet, 65gr of 4759, tested at same place
was 11,800 psi and 1640 fps. So you don't have
to put in my max loads, but go down a
little and use in modern guns that
are lighter than NEF so they don't kick so bad.But yet
you can get fairly good energy levels for big game, 3300
to 4000 ft lbs of energy.Ed

hubel458
11-21-2006, 11:46 PM
Here is picture of case fired 25 times,
in my 700HE test barrel, to show you
how cases stretch and thinout from
repeated firings of high pressure loads.
You can see where it is thinning just
above the belt. Half of the loads were
high pressure loads. Regular 10,000 ft
lb loads wouldn't stretch cases at all.
This is made from bmg brass like our
12GA FH. 700 is belted and 12ga has rim.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/25.jpg

hubel458
11-27-2006, 12:43 AM
Some research. Anyone with a Mauser converted
to 12ga shotgun can fire our 4759 loads.
One was the GEHA, other REMO. The locking lug for bolt is the rear safety lug and if you wanted an extra lug do an Ed on the bolt
handle base to make contact between bolt handle and bolt handle recess.They are not long enough
for our full length case, but came with 2 3/4"
chamber and magazine.Were 2 shot large ring
converted military mausers.Studying this gun lead me to the idea that a fancy 12ga with 3" chamber could be made by the same thing that Germans did to the Mauser to make GEHA. Just use
a S&L, Colt Sauer, etc, with rear locking lugs.
Grind out inside diameter of action from rear reciever forward so 12ga case will feed, Rear of bolt will still center ok as lugs and metal
are there. The silver solder combination guide extension to support 12ga case on the left side
of bolt, and put extractor on right side.
Like a Sako or whatever.Face off the recess on front off bolt flat, Put in 12ga barrel with chamfers to clear extractor.A 788 Rem
may work, at least with a 2.75" case.
For repeater action, Open mag
well to hold a single stack of 1 or 2
12ga cases.Fancy gunwrighters badmouthed
the GEHA, but geese hunters just loved them,
as they handled heavy loads fine. Ed.

hubel458
11-30-2006, 01:12 AM
I have also found that the rear locking lug
idea will work with an Enfield, and it would
long enough for our long case with little
work. Work long case as singleshot.
Work as single stack repeater with 3" 12ga.
The bolt handle base would be one lug, and is quite large, which would be stronger than
goose guns built same way.The
left locking lug woud get a bite out on
its end if front was bored out to .900,
tp allow feeding of 12ga case.
But I found a way to add extra lug in the back by opening sight recess that is in rear bridge
down through to bolt raceway, mill groove on left for lug to turn into that
opening and mill square recess into bolt and add lug on left.Result 2.5 lugs, with enough
strength to hold 30k plus loads easily.
Ream out front of action. Barrel threads are
as big as Savage, little more than Mauser.
Face off front of bolt flat.Add pin in ejector
cutout to support case opposite extractor.
The original lugs will guide for feeding.
Screw in heavy 12ga rifled barrel.By the way
would work for 700NE,My 700HE by keeping
pressures moderate. Could handle 600Ne,
full pressure. Ed

BluesBear
11-30-2006, 01:47 AM
Okay here's another "what-if".

Based on their experimentation of adding a rimmed head to a modified .50 case it seems to me that it would be quite easy to create a wildcat 12 gauge rimless cartridge based on a necked-up/blown-out .50 BMG case. Call it the 12 gauge Browning Rimless or the 19mm Browning Shotgun.

It also seems to me that it would be possible to then install a 12 gauge Browning Rimless barrel on a .50 BMG rifle and in essence have a convertable rifle/shotgun unit since the bolt head would be the same.

Since the barrel is removed from the Barrett for normal takedown it seems to me that a second shotgun barrel would be easy to install.

If you could get the Barrett to function in semi-auto mode it seems to me that a 20" barreled, 12 gauge, M82 Barret would be the ultimate "Rocdblocker" type shotgun.

hubel458
11-30-2006, 09:47 PM
When Rob made his 700 BMG Imp, he didn't have
very much shoulder to headspace on.If you went from
700 up to .729(12ga), a shoulder to headspace
on would be gone. If you managed a case with small
shoulder it wouldn't be straight to use with shot
like our 12GA FH case can.My regular belted
full length 700 HE will work with same boltface as a
50 BMG. Another reason we made 12GA FH with 12ga base
size, rim included, is to be able to call it a legal
12ga, as chamber would fire shorter 12ga cases.
Like a 3.5 inch 12ga will fire 2.75" and 3" inch.
Our will fire shorter also.Ed

BluesBear
11-30-2006, 10:12 PM
Of course the 19mm Browning would have to headspace on the mouth like all other straight-sided, rimless cartridges do.

For bolt action guns it could me marketed that with a simple bolt change, standard 12 gauge ammunition could be fired.

For Topper style guns (ouch!) an extractor could be designed that would work with both rimmed and rimless cases.
Probably would work with falling block actions as well.

hubel458
12-02-2006, 06:51 PM
Problem with headspacing on mouth is heavier loads cases
stretch and trimming is a pain. I made my 12GA FH
and my 700HE and other long wildcats with chambers
.050 long so that wouldn't be problem.Bolts are easiest
to go back and forth.We have one fellow who is
putting 12GA Fh in AR50 upper, so he can change bolt
and barrel and go back to 50BMG.Ed

BluesBear
12-03-2006, 04:33 AM
Straigh walled cases don't suffer from as much stretching problems as bottlenecked ones do.
Usually a straight walled case will stretch to the maximum length of the chamber and then go no further.

Unless the chamber is loose enough to allow it to overly expand and then get excessively worked in the sizing die.

I've reloaded .45 Winchester Magnum cases 20-25 times and not had to trim them.
And the .45WM, at 50,000 PSI, is a porportionately higher pressure cartridge than the 19mm Browning loadings I'm envisioning.

hubel458
12-09-2006, 01:37 AM
Here is picture of top part of the
first scale-up model, next to smaller
Wickliffe. It has 12GA FH round in feed
trough. It is aluminum just for a model.
It will handle 12GA FH, 700HE, 700NE, 600NE,
etc. Bottom of block is flat to set on
mill table to do the machining.Next machining
will be the hole and slot down through the
action for breech block and hammer to
slide up and down in.Its taken awhile to
get some tooling.I had none when we set up
vertical mill, and have to get more.The
action model also will be narrowed up when
finished, and contoured to look as good
as the Wickcliffe.Ed.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/su.jpg

hubel458
12-17-2006, 12:20 AM
Tested the Wickcliffe with 12ga FH case
in a temperary chamber to see if
hammer with beefed up spring would fire
bmg primers.I scalloped out the back
of the action so 12ga cases would feed
into the action and temp chamber
They fired ok. Bur the extra stiff spring
makes it hard to cock. We will have to work
on that.The original Wickcliffe
action that we want to scale up is tall
enough so that when breech block is
lowered the block clears the bottom
a 12ga rim when cases slide out of chamber.
So in the scale up we need to just add a
a little width for wider breech block,
and the bigger barrel thread, and keep the
sides thick for strength.Ed

hubel458
12-20-2006, 11:55 PM
In response to guys who can't find 4759
we will test powders in the same speed range.
Tested 2 fast stick powders, 4198 and 4227.
Both didn't ignite good with small primers
in plastic cases. Another I plan on trying
VV110, when I find some. It is bulkier
and slight chance may work like 4759. Ed

georgeld
12-21-2006, 03:02 AM
WOW!

Hey Ed:

IF you'd spend as much time with your machining and experimenting
as you do typing on the 'puter, you'd get things done a whole lot
quicker. hehe!!

What's the weight of a .715" round ball?

How do/would they work in 12ga hulls for hogs??

Great post, enjoyed reading the whole thing in one sitting.

Scrounger
12-21-2006, 09:45 AM
Georgeld, it should be somewhere around 550 grains. Do you know the definition of "gauge" in shotgun parlance?

hubel458
12-31-2006, 12:18 AM
Fired couple 3.5" cases with 90gr
4759 and 460 grains of buckshot,
14 number 1 buckshot.Fired in nef,
pattern huge due to rifling, even with
shotcup. They were going 2000 fps plus,
and went through 1/8 steel on end of
stand. Ignition perfect, extracted easy.
In smoothbore be a real hairy load.
With three 3.5" plastic cases with
100gr 4759, 600gr slug. Used .135 card wad,
a 1/2" and 1/4" felt wads. 1900+ fps
in 24" NEF barrel, same low pressure as
the 3" cases we pressure tested. I have NEF
chamber lengthened for our longer
brass case. A nice long barrel we'd
have 2050 plus.Ed

hubel458
01-09-2007, 07:53 PM
Here is pictures of the breech, lever,
linkage, etc, set up on a block to
get the geometry for the scaleup model working
ok.And setup measurements to make the breech
hole in the action, in right place.Also used
this model to get hammer and trigger set
up to ride on the breech block. With
a strong hammer and trigger in the right
place in the guard.In the pics above you see the pin the
lever pivots on. The actions being bigger
will be wider than the levers;So the space on the
pivot will be taken up by the Ruger
style extractor on the left side and a spacer
on the right side. Spacer also acts as a
breech block stop at the bottom of the
breech travel.So to get block stopped at
right position for the diameter of the case
and feed trough, we adjust spacer size.
Ruger extractors from GP changed
a little bit will do.Ed.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/70.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/71.jpg

hubel458
01-16-2007, 02:06 AM
Found info an a double that would work
for making 12GA FH. It's a Spanish 10 ga
on an 8 ga frame that we think Stoeger and
maybe others imported years ago. It says
No. 6 HG on trigger guard. It is over 2 & 3/4"
across outside of both barrels, chopperlump
barrel pivots, with heavy locking lugs,
and A purdey style third fastener.Top lever.
Barrels are big enough to use as monoblocks
to screw in heavy 12ga barrels, with same size
threads as my Savage and it being a huge action
could handle same loads as the Savage.Like
12-17,000 ft lbs. Ed.

45nut
01-16-2007, 02:47 AM
What a wicked thread. I am quite satisfied with my 500A2 at the moment but .....I have an older single 12ga bare action just waiting for a new lease on life.

This will wait of course, dealing with workers comp for a back injury has me down and out.
When the idiots currently employed as my doctors actually do something beyond writing more 'scripts and actually want to treat the problem instead of masking the symptoms has me baffled and disgusted.

hubel458
01-24-2007, 01:23 AM
Here is sectioned action with parts in.
Original action that had defects
that I sectioned down the middle..I
ground out the top to allow case
to set higher, representing a
the taller action that we will
have due to larger diameter cases.
That lever in the picture is the
lever we will use with longer stroke.
Also in the action layout is the
breechblock, hammer, trigger with a
12GA FH in front, all in to check layout.
This lever looks to be easier to fit
and shape to bigger action and stock,
with a good pistolgrip to handle recoil.
Lever shape fits where trigger is better.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/hta.jpg

hubel458
01-28-2007, 05:43 AM
http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/6079/1009397zr5.th.jpg

870 double pump big bore. 20 shots.
Hard cast 600 gr slugs, 4759 loads
in plastic, be real neat. Fires both
or one at a time. In classifieds on THR.Ed

hubel458
01-31-2007, 10:27 PM
I will be posting more research on this thread
about other powders in 12ga plastic cases,about the
12GA FH loads, about scaled up falling blocks, my 700HE long
belted case, and the 28GA FH, on the right.
And regular case will fire in same chamber. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/28.jpg

hubel458
02-02-2007, 06:48 PM
For you big bore collectors.Here is
a gun that make good buckshot
deer gun. Use big buckshot.If
your into collecting cases - Maybe
get some for collections as the guys
who ordered them, didn't take them all.
There is a whole bunch of the Tula 4bore
cases at Rocky Mtn Cartridge Co.
This was the run we had made for the
Tula 4bore pumpgun. It's a 3inch 4bore
case. 20 bucks single case, shipping and all.
The price of brass and machining is twice that.
Here is pic of the gun it went into.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bigbore.jpg

hubel458
02-07-2007, 06:14 PM
Here is pic of the finished breech block model
for the scaleup action.You can see hammer
and trigger mounted in the rear of the
block.Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/block.jpg

hubel458
02-14-2007, 02:11 AM
Another experiment in shotgun/rifle realm is
28GA From Hell. 28ga is .550 bore and with 550Mag
barrels & bullets being made it is a natural. Have one
on bolt gun ready to chamber.Chamber still
will fire shorter cases..Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/28.jpg

hubel458
02-16-2007, 03:09 AM
Rocky MTN is making me some
3.25 in 28ga cases. They are good to 38k psi.
That will get 550 gr out at 2500 in
bolt action.A regular 28ga gun may get to
2000, depending on how heavy barrel is.
Get a NEF Ultra cut off leaving breech section
for monoblock and have 28ga rifled barrel
made and screwed or soldered in monoblock.
And being able to hold 38k to match brass,
That would get 2500 fps loads.Good test
for some 500-550gr 28ga/550cal hard slugs.Ed

BAGTIC
02-18-2007, 01:59 AM
Are the primer pocket bushings a do-it-yourself project or can they be bought?

hubel458
02-18-2007, 10:59 PM
To bush bmg pockets down to large rifle or shotgun primers
it's a doit yourself, as I haven't found any ready made
to screw in. Ed

lar45
02-19-2007, 02:13 AM
I drilled out the BMG primer pockets and then soldered in a bushing for 209 primers. I'm wondering how much the soldering has softened the brass. Then I had a thought about low temp soldering. I have some 225 F chamber cast alloy. Could this be used to solder a rim on and the primer bushing in without annealing the case?

hubel458
02-22-2007, 02:15 PM
It is easier to ream out pocket a little and tap and screw in a 3/8" x 24 brass rod. Then face off, then drill about
.080 flashhole and the drill and ream for smaller primers.
I don't like heating the head at all. And to heat head for putting on rim would soften it to much.If you can make rim on
small lathe or CNC machine it can be threaded easy also,
and just turn off rim from case, thread it 5/8 x 24, screw it
on with locktite. I'm hoping one of the guys doing this will be in setup to make rims in volumne to sell to others.Then others can
do cases which isn't as hard, and put on rims.Ed

hubel458
02-27-2007, 10:14 PM
Here is picture of the first falling block
model of aluminum, with a roughed out
stock to see how it looks. Action is a
rough model. It shoulders nice, and
lever is inlet into pistol grip,
so you can't get banged up
fingers with the big cartridges it is designed
for, like levers that stick down at the
guard.This action will work for all the
big bore cast bullet cartridges.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/hfb.jpg

hubel458
03-03-2007, 09:43 PM
The action will have recess in the back on top for any
length tang needed. The lever also is easily straightened for
old style straight grip stock. Ed.

hubel458
03-08-2007, 06:20 PM
Here is pic of action model with lever open
and the breech block down. Also the action
will have a slot in the rtop rear for a
top tang of whatever length you need.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/hfbo.jpg

Buckshot
03-09-2007, 06:05 AM
.............Quite a project! I had noticed a large upswing in dinosauer incursions recently into the neighborhood and my 375-06 just seems a bit light. I should take a close look at these things you're doing :-)

..............Buckshot

hubel458
03-12-2007, 08:24 PM
Info about the toggle link. It is up inside
the breech block, and quite short,and that
allows the overall height of the action to
be relatively compact, for the huge
cases we plan on using.But yet the top
part of the breechblock is solid for
great strength.Ed

hubel458
03-18-2007, 01:20 AM
Asked about using 900 gr saboted bullets in
3" plastic cases in regular barrels with
4759 or RL-15 and starter powder.
With bullets that heavy you'd have too
high of pressures with 4759
for plastic cases. Possibly could do
it with RL-15 and starter
powder in plastic, but only
in heavy barreled like NEF.

But the 600 gr Dixie is still the best for
most uses in plastic.

A NEF and brass RMC cases would handle 900 gr
Saboted bullet with RL-15 and starter powder. Start
at 80 gr Rl-15 and go up if cases don't
expand to much to resize.Ed

lar45
03-18-2007, 03:29 AM
I saw this on Ebay a few days ago.
http://i12.ebayimg.com/04/i/000/91/34/48e1_1.JPG
It's an extended 12 ga rifled choke tube that extends the barrel by 3 1/2" and made for a Browning BPS.
I bought one of the import 1887 lever shotguns and I was thinking of putting a rifled barrel on it. But with this long rifled choke tube you could have a 23 1/2" barrel, and then have the option of useing regular choke tubes for shot.
http://i14.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/91/34/4e18_1.JPG
I need to become a better machineist so that I can build some toys.

hubel458
03-19-2007, 03:05 AM
That's longer than a lot of chokes.
Might work if the 87 barrel is big
enough to thread for it.Ed

BluesBear
03-20-2007, 06:08 AM
I have one of those Browning rifled tubes for my 1300 and was thinking of having my Interstate 87 fitted for tubes.

The tube is .992" OD and the threaded shank is the standard .813"

hubel458
03-22-2007, 10:38 PM
Here is pic of a double that I will put
barrels in, monoblock style, using the breech
section for the monoblock. This one will be
for 28GA FH. May get another same size for
my 510HE. I will be able to run full pressures
with these.....I am trying to find a bigger,
heavier one to put 12GA FH in. I want
heavier one so as to run pressures like my
Savage as a minimum.Ed.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/zab.jpg

BABore
03-23-2007, 09:55 AM
Ed,

I've been following your 12 gauge project through several of the forums you post on. Very interesting stuff. One thing that I can't recall seeing is any mention of accuracy. Are you getting decent 50 or 100 yard accuracy driving theses slugs fast?

After discussing a few things with you in PM's, I've started a tame 12 gauge project of my own. Oh yeah, I'll be pestering you some more soon. I designed up a 600 gr., 0.730 diameter, slug with a hollow base. I put the HB in it to reduce weight while getting some length. The design is similar to Dixie's 730 grainer. Just about got the cherry done to cut a mold. I've also designed up a Saeco style lubrisizer that will handle a 1" OD die. Plan to complete both soon.

My intent is to load these in 2 3/4" Activ hulls. I picked up 500 new primed hulls before they were gone and have been hoarding them. Never found the need to resize them, even with heavy field loads. I've got two Mossberg 500's with the heavy Trophy rifled barrels on them. I don't plan to get anywhere near where you've been. Just want to make a good, stout, accurate, hunting load. Your loads with 4759 sound like they should work.

BABore
03-27-2007, 07:41 AM
btt please

BABore
03-28-2007, 08:02 AM
Here's a pic of the first slugs out of the mold. They weight in right at 600 grains (1 3/8 oz). Standard Lyman Foster for comparison.

hubel458
03-31-2007, 12:03 AM
BA- those are great looking slugs, As for accuracy I
got 2-3 inch three shot group at 50yds with
peep sights and old eyes, with long case. 730 gr
Dixie and Savage running 25-2600.Ed

lar45
03-31-2007, 03:02 AM
BA, very nice job on the mold and slugs.

Ed, looks like you found one of the Spanish doubles? Is it a 12 or 10 ga?

The Belgian 12 ga that I did my 470 on looks like it is starting to shoot loose. I think I'll have to pull the 470 barrels and go with something smaller and lower pressure. I'm thinking a 416 Taylor rimmed with 2.6" 45-90 Starline cases.

I was looking at one of the Huglu 12 ga SxS doubles. It looks like a very solid gun to me. I'm thinking of getting it to put the 470 barrels on.

Aaron
03-31-2007, 10:57 AM
What does it take to re-barrel a shotgun to a rifle?

Thanks

lar45
03-31-2007, 01:53 PM
There is a good book by W Ellis Brown, Building Double Rifles on Shotgun actions.
This is a good place to start if you're considering it.

One method is to cut the shotgun barrels off someplace infront of the the locking lugs, 2.5-3" ish. You can then thread the section that is left and use it as a Mono-Block. Get your new rifle barrels, have them turned to the profile you want, turn the shank and thread to fit the mono-block. Then screw the barrels in. You can cut the chamber short before putting on the mono-block and then adjust it after it's together. You'll need to solder the upper and lower ribs in place. Put on the latch for the forearm. Install the sights and then regulate the barrels. Twist, shim...until the barrels shoot to the same place and solder them together. then hope that they still shoot to the same place.

You need to be mindful of the case thrust of the cartridge you're looking at and make sure that it will be compatible with the action you choose.
there are many other things to consider as well and they are covered in the book.

Don't know if this helps or just brings up more questions.

I thought about sleeveing the shotgun barrels with a new barrel liner and then shim the ends to regulate and solder in place. I don't think that it looks as good as doing the monoblock, but is less work.
On my site there is also a link to a guy in Norway that made a 45-70 double pistol on a Saur 12 ga double. Norway does not have to worry about our ATF rules on cutting down a shotgun or rifle. So don't everybody jump in and say (Oh that's Illegal!!! The Feds are going to knock down his door!!!) He Lives in Norway!
http://www.lsstuff.com/howdah/470.html

hubel458
03-31-2007, 10:59 PM
The pictured one is 10ga Zabala. It is tight
and has crossbolt. I will check on the Huglus,
and they are higher priced I think,But they maybe
are as strong as the Zabalas. I had a thought
of only monoblocking the right barrel in 28ga FH
and leaving left 10ga, get a 12ga one, make right 510HE,
the left as 12ga. Might save a lot of work and
have a 2 real versatile guns.Ed

Aaron
04-01-2007, 01:23 AM
Thanks Lar45
I have always been fasinated by big bore rifles and would love to have a double rifle in 470 or 500 NE, but my wallet won't allow that

Aaron

lar45
04-01-2007, 02:54 AM
I will check on the Huglus,
and they are higher priced I think,But they maybe
are as strong as the Zabalas. I had a thought
of only monoblocking the right barrel in 28ga FH
and leaving left 10ga, get a 12ga one, make right 510HE,
the left as 12ga. Might save a lot of work and
have a 2 real versatile guns.Ed

The Zabala 10 ga is very beefy, mine look to be very well made and lock up very tight. It should be an excellent gun to build on. I started my 470 project with the intent of building on the 10 ga, but then thought it might be too large and clunky. I guess if I just stepped up to 577NE then it should be about the right size.

The Huglu web page I looked at said they were made from armory grade steel. Wish they would tell you which grade of steel. I was kind of surprized to find that the Win 94 was made with 1119 and the Big Bore with 1141. So I guess not all things have to be 4140.
It would be nice of Huglu would make some with 4140 and offer in a 2 barrel set so you could have the shotgun and then convert the other set for rifle barrels.

On your 28gaFH, could you just sleeve one barrel?
http://www.lsstuff.com/howdah/pics/470ne/blg12ga002.jpg
It might be pretty tricky to cut one barrel off and unsolder the rib for the one barrel and then get it all put back together. If you went with a smaller 28ga OD then you'd have to make a new forearm. the rib may have to be completly replaced also.
I guess a big question would be, would it look better or more traditional with a new smaller 28ga barrel?
I've seen pictures of some cape guns where the rifle barrel was considereably smaller.

I picked up an old W. Richards 12 ga double that needs lots of work. I have 2 octagon 50 cal muzzle loader barrels and was thinking about maybe useing the octagon barrels and chambering for 50-70 or 50-90. The 2 full length octagon barrels would make it pretty heavy. It would definatly be different. I haven't seen or heard about an Octagon double.
As always, too many thoughts to get them all done, but...

Aaron, you should pick up the book. It makes for intertesting reading even if you don't think you'll build one.

Aaron
04-01-2007, 11:06 PM
I think I will purchase the book. Even if I never get to do it, should be fun reading.
Thanks
Aaron

hubel458
04-11-2007, 12:45 AM
Had question about locking RMC cases onto
lead slugs, as they don't crimp into the
grooves well as sharp bend works thick
mouth. First I resize tight and slightly bell
mouth.Insert slugs which take a little pressure.
Then I use a die with slightly more
taper and swage the mouth into slug, like
the fit you get with bottleneck cases.
Same deal works with our long cases made
from BMG brass.Ed

hubel458
04-15-2007, 12:11 AM
Preliminary testing with VV N-110 powder shows
it works with small primers like the 4759 powder does,
in plastic cases. Perfect ignition on first
bunch of loads with 600gr hard slugs.Ed

hubel458
04-21-2007, 10:25 PM
More VV N-110 testing that we got done.
Starting loads are 60 gr min like 4759 for good
ignition,600gr slug. In 2 & 3/4" plastic full load is 75gr
with card and 1/4" cushion wad.In Nef 24" bbl 1700fps.
In 3" plastic 87gr, card and 3/8" wad, 1800 plus.
In RMC brass case. 100gr, card and 1/2 wad 1900 plus.
All running same safe pressures as 4759 lab tested.
So that is two powders that are slower than shotgun
powders, and much safer to work with for regular
primers, giving at least 20% more velocity. Ed

hubel458
04-25-2007, 10:48 PM
Testing soft buckhammer vs hard Dixie. Dixie 600 gr,
Buckhammer from factory hull 640gr with locked on wad,both
out of Savage at 2300. Dixie went through 2 -1/8" steel
sheets and on through two more 3 feet away.Buckhammer
went through first two with same round hole, but made
a bunch of dents and one cockeyed hole 3 ft away.Ed

hubel458
04-29-2007, 11:29 PM
Along with the two slower than shotgun powders, IMR 4759
and VV N110 that ignite reliably with shotgun primers,
that are easier to load for slugs, in heavy bbl can
get 20% plus more velocity, I've found another. It is
IMR 7383 $3 a lb surplus. Tested plastic 3" cases, perfect ignition with regular primers. 8 types cases,600gr cast slug
starting load 100gr. Full load 140gr giving 1800 fps plus
in 24" bbl NEF.With loads halfway between start and full
didn't even have to resize to shoot again.Full load just has
a card wad under slug in 3" plastic.Wad just tight on
charge, as no extreme compression of powder needed.
Will do heavier slugs and
RMC brass cases. Ed

hubel458
05-02-2007, 06:18 PM
Tested 7383 with 730gr Dixie, 130gr gets 1650 plus fps
in NEF 24" bbl. Used 3" plastic cases. Same low expansion
as 7383 the 600gr loads and the 4759 lab tested loads.
Ignition perfect, no hesitation.Ed

hubel458
05-05-2007, 09:19 PM
Tested 800g cast slug with 7383 in plastic.Works good.
Have question about different cases and dies.
The RMC cases use a shotgun primer, thus they have
a real thick base. They are not a thin headed,
balloon headed case, and RMC makes sides thick
enough for regular 12ga wads.
But in a break action the 3" plastic cases
with our 4759, VV110, 7383 loads are close to RMC in
power. Can buy a hundred plastic for price of one RMC.
3.5" chamber 12ga with plastic is as good as RMC for 3"
And if I shot RMC in Savage to get more power,
which I could do as far as the firing process,
the expansion above the base, due to being a turned case
would make extraction stiff, causing extractor to
damage rim. A turned rim will not take what
a drawn one will. Rcbs set should do RMC easy.Ed

hubel458
05-19-2007, 11:00 PM
Finished test of 7383/870 slug in NEF.
Tested 870gr hardened slug with 118gr of
7383, got 1500 plus. Perfect ignition.
Cases ejected easy, and has same base
expansion as the 600 gr slug/140gr 7383.
Will have these pressure/velocity tested
in few weeks.Ed

hubel458
05-28-2007, 11:56 PM
Tested a 750 gr banded solid, grooves .009 smaller
than land diameter and got same velocity as
with lead slug weighing the same at same pressure.
Other banded brass slugs with groove debth
same as land raised pressures compared to lead.
Got 2700 easy with 750gr, in long case in Savage.
But for most game still like hardened lead. Ed

hubel458
06-08-2007, 11:54 AM
The folks at 50 Cal suggested we write up a
piece on the 12GA FH. Interested in what we
did to make hairy cartridge using 50 cal brass
adapted to the 12 gauge shotgun platform.
A job for Rob to do? His wild idea has been
viewed about 400,000 times in the forums
we put it in.Ed

hubel458
06-16-2007, 10:54 PM
Anyone got any long 12ga rifled 30" plus
barrels, 1.3" plus diameter. Barrel
guy is shutting down and returning funds.
Been waiting for 12ga heavy barrel for
87 levergun since last summer.Boy it is
hard getting projects done.Ed

hubel458
06-23-2007, 09:58 PM
Here is a simple outline of what we've done with
our project we call the 12GA From Hell.
Some folks have asked us to do this.

A. The idea for this and the name was by
Robgunbuilder on the AR forum. We figured out how
to make a long brass case, from BMG brass by
machining rims and the case to screw them on.
We ended up with case after mouth was
annealed, fireformed, and expanded to 12ga,
that was 3.85" long, with a big BMG primer.

B. Rob put his in a big Borchardt falling block,
a gun that can take full BMG type pressures.
It had firing mechanision that fired primers ok.
Example top load is a 1000gr turned brass slug at
3100 plus fps, and a 7/8oz 12ga sabot at
4300 fps.

C. First of mine in a Savage 210 bolt shotgun with a
heavy rifled 31" barrel. My loads in this were kept
below 35,000 psi. Giving loads of 2700 fps with
a 730 gr hard lead slug, and 3900 with 3/4oz sabot.
Second gun was a NEF Ultra that I lengthened chamber
to take long case. Top loads are 600gr hard slug
at 2500 plus fps.Both Savage and NEF had to have
firing mechanisions beefed up to fire BMG primers.

D. We cut cases back to use in 3" chambers but
all guns have to have beefed up hammers, etc,
to fire the big BMG primers.The BMG primers
fired the slow rifle powders ROB and I
were using very well, no misfires.
So tried 3" RMC brass cases, regular plastic cases,
our cut back cases with primer bushings, all with
smaller regular rifle or shotgun primers,
that regular hammers or firing pins fire ok,
and found out that our slow rifle powder loads
wouldn't fire reliably with small primers.
The slow powders in large diameter cases
needed BMG primers to work. So to use small primers-

E. We went to much more research. We found that
slow powders could be fired with a 10 gr of a
fast shotgun starter powder, under the slow powder,
using small primers. This concept has beeen
used in NE cases. We also searched for rifle
or pistol powders slower than shotgun powders,
that would fire with small primers and no starter,
that didn't up peak pressure to fast as
we increased loads to increase velocity.
We didn't want to over expand RMC brass or
blow out the rims on regular plastic cases
We found three- IMR 4759, VV-N110, and 7383 surplus.
These powders are easier to load for slugs without
the problems of fast shotgun powders pushing up
the peak pressures to quick, as you try to increase
loads to up the velocity. We use a minimum
thickness overpowder wad or other wads in the loads
under the slugs as needed. We had lab test 4759
loads with 600gr slug and pressures were little less
than the magnum REM Buckhammer factory loads, but
we got 400 fps more velocity. The Buckhammer
slug and locked on wad is about 600 gr.Both our tested
loads and Rem loads are 3" plastic.Our loads are for heavy
barreled guns only. IE; all slow powder loads whether
with starter powder or 4759,N110, 7383, use heavy barrels,
as the pressure curve is higher down the barrel
and might split regular skinny shotgun barrels.

F. We plan on heavy barrels for testing 1887 Win
leverguns, for Mossberg 695 bolt guns, for
various heavy double shotguns, for various
O/U, for modern alloy guns, etc.We are helping to
design a big falling block for 12ga diameter
that can take high full load pressures,
that is reasonably priced.. We plan on testing
other powders, for use with small primers. We
plan on setting up pressure testing barrel for
the long 3.85" case, to test the whole range
of slow powders and bullet weights, in the future.
The testing lab now can only do 3" 12ga cases.
We have found heatreated Dixie slugs that can
take super velocities, we found brass slugs with
relieved grooves that run same pressures as lead,
or copper jacketed, at same velocities.
We found 7383 powder pushes 870gr safely, full loads,
in 3 inch plastic, RMC 3" brass, etc cases.
This research and work is super great fun,
we are glad to share.We will get pictures soon of
the muzzle blast with long case, and pics
of penetration tests. Ed

hubel458
06-29-2007, 01:35 PM
Found another powder that works with small
primers in plastic and RMC cases. 600gr slug.
It is IMR 4227. Ignition perfect, same load
levels and velocities as 4759. My earlier
report of 4227 not working was in error
due to what looks like 4198 in a jug
hand labeled 4227 I got in sale years ago.
Greg told me 4227 worked for him so I got new
jug, and saw the difference from jug I had.

So slower than shotgun, powders that ignite
properly; we have 4759, VV-110, 4227, 7383 surplus,
the latter a slow powder that works with
real heavy slugs also. Ed

hubel458
07-07-2007, 11:08 PM
Pressure tested 7383 with heavy powder load.
870 gr hard, heat treated, slug;
with 128 gr of 7383-- All that could
be put in REM plastic and keep length to what
would feed from magazine of a 3" gun,
after it was roll crimped with tool in drillpress.
1513 fps-- 14700 psi. That is a slug 50%
heavier than factory Buckhammer at little
faster speed and at little less pressure.
Ignition perfect, cases fall out.
Love that $3 a lb powder.Ed

BluesBear
07-08-2007, 05:37 AM
due to what looks like 4198 in a jug
hand labeled 4227 I got in sale years ago.


This is why you should NEVER handle powder that is in anything other than the original factory container.
There are so many powders that look exactly like another that visial inspection is not always accurate. Never trust any gun show or second hand powder unless it's still factory sealed.

With over 150 powders available to todays reloaders you can't be too careful.
With so many having similar names or numbers it's all too easy for someone to get them confused. Just because it has the same number doesn't mean it's the same powder.

And burn rate charts aren't gospel either. They are to be used as a guideline at best. Powder X may burn faster than Powder Z in a .223 case but slower in a .300 Weatherby case.
You may be able to use the exact same charge of Powder A as Powder B in a 9mm case but discover a drastic difference in safe loads when used in a .45 Colt.
With some powders it doesn't matter if you use a standard or a magnum primer.
With other powders it makes a huge difference.
Trail Boss is a good example.
Using a 158gr lead bullet in .38 Special cases, 4.2gr gives you 804fps with a standard primer.
Using that same 158gr lead bullet in .357 Magnum cases, that same 4.2gr gives you 865fps with a magnum primer.
There's a big pressure difference between those two loads.
Normally when using the exact same load in both cases, the .357 Magnum will yeild slightly lower velocities and pressures that what you get with .38 Special brass.

I store my powders in a separate room. I only have one bottle/keg of powder at a time in my loading room. And I never leave powder in my measure when I'm not loading.

hubel458
07-08-2007, 02:16 PM
I had tested the fastest stick powders already
so there was no danger of overpressure, as anything
else would be slower. And it was slower, and didn't ignite
properly, givinf me wrong info about what
I though I had. But we got the IMR4227 working
ok, so we will in next weeks test it with heavier than
600gr, by steps- 730gr- 800gr, 870gr. ED.

BluesBear
07-08-2007, 07:00 PM
H458, my concerns were intended as a general caution for everyone, not as an abmonishment directed towards you.

I would have thought 4198 would have worked well, it has long been touted as a good choice for large, straightwalled, low pressure cartridges.
Perhaps what you had either wasn't 4198 (there have been several different producers over the years) OR if it was, it had been improperly stored. Which is another reason to only use the factory container.

Especially with plactic. For many (hundreds?) years powders were only packaged in metal or cardboard/fiberboard "cans". It's only been (fairly) recently that plastic containers were used for gunpowders.

Because certain plastics, (certain ones, not all of them) when exposed to certain (there's that word again) gunpowders, over time, may cause a reaction that alters the powder as well as the plastic. And neither is changed for the better.

hubel458
07-08-2007, 09:52 PM
We tested what I know for sure is 4198 from fairly new can
In cases up to as large as my 585HE with base same size range
as 577NE(.660")fired fine with regular primers. Every powder I have
fires in that size case with large rifle primer and mag shotgun primers
are stronger than lg rifle. But when case diameter goes to .800
like 12ga or my 700HE or 50BMG then regular primers don't
work on most rifle powders, hence a bmg primer that is 3 times
as strong as lg rifle. In 12ga 4198 misfired or had delayed fire(this
one is when you hear hammer strike then a boom), about half
the loads. Very disconcerting and interesting to say the least.
We can use all powders as I related in posts a while back,
in cases with large rifle primers like magteck or other plastic
cases with shotgun primers, or RMC brass with shotgun primers,
if starter powder like Blue Dot is used. About 10 gr. And best
powder for doing that with is in mid range of the chart.. Ed

hubel458
07-14-2007, 03:15 PM
Finally able to make the
longer barrel improvement on
the 1887 12ga levergun.......
Rifled and heavy and 31"
long. After many months finally got
a barrel.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/87up.jpg

hubel458
07-22-2007, 02:47 PM
With NEF. Plastic cases, roll crimped slug
in drillpress. 82gr IMR 4227 1650 fps,
with 730gr, 78 gr 4227 with 800gr, 1600.
Expansion on cases show little more pressure
as full loads of 4759 and 600gr.
Ignition perfect with small primers.
Ejects cases fine. Burns clean.
Got a GEHA bolt 12ga to put a heavier
rifled barrel on to test. Ed

hubel458
07-29-2007, 11:04 PM
Tested 870 gr in NEF with our long
brass case with big primer.I have NEF
with extra hammer spring for big primer.
Got 2000 fps and still able to extract case.
Would do little more, extractor needs
to be wider and set up positive.
Used 260gr of WC-860 and MagPro.
Could use RL-22, Rl-25, Retumbo, etc.
That's 7700 ft lbs.. I get 600 gr slug to
2300 plus in NEF, long case. so you can go
light or heavy.Ed

hubel458
08-16-2007, 12:12 AM
More testing with 4227. Greg got little over 1500 fps in
3" plastic with 870 gr slug using 74-75 gr of 4227.
I did the same. This compares to much lighter
REM Buckhammer slug, we have more speed. Almost all
the way through 5 ft bundle hardwood boards.
I have Mossy 695 as well as GEHA 12 gauge
to put heavy rifled barrels on. And my 87.
Will be checking Mossy 395
for a guy who wants to put on
a heavy barrel.Here is pic of 695 bolt action
Mossberg with dinky barrel and the heavy long
rifled barrel for it. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/moss.jpg

lar45
08-24-2007, 03:24 PM
Hi Ed, great stuff.
Thanks for the condensed update, I have this all saved in word for future reference.
You might consider writeing a book with load developement info.
12 Bore Slugs and Beyond, WAY BEYOND...
A Journey into Huge Slugs at Unreal Velocities...

On the Mossberg 695/395, is it a twinn lug front locking bolt similar to the Savage 210?
How do you think the strength of them compares to the Savage bolt action and the NEF Ultra Slug break open?

Glenn.

hubel458
09-03-2007, 08:23 PM
The 695 has two rear bolt lugs. About as
strong as the NEF, Glenn.
A little less strength than the Sav 210.
Tested in NEF 3" cases, Alliant 2400 with
small primers, Fired ok at 75 deg but when
case cooled there was majority of misfires
and squib loads. Don't reccomend it..
Here is picture of Mauser 12ga bolt action
GEHA next to a heavy barrel like I will put
on it Make a good slug gun.IT has thinnest
barrel of any 12ga I ever seen.Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/geha.jpg

hubel458
09-13-2007, 10:41 PM
The 12GA From Hell, 700HE, and
700HE 3.25" is now on
Ammoguide, the last page of
cartridge list.Recent news says
H&H is going to build Paradox
Shotgun/Rifles again...Ed

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=611

hubel458
10-03-2007, 09:04 PM
We tested 3.5" plastic cases in NEF, small
primers. My chamber is lengthened for our
long brass case, so they work fine.....
With 600 gr slug, 105 gr of IMR 4227,
got 2100. Same slug, 180 gr, 7383 surplus,
got 2100 fps. That's 5800 ft lbs from
plastic shotgun cases.Ed

hubel458
10-21-2007, 12:21 AM
Here is the Enfield I reamed out to feed 12 gauge and BMG
size cases. I added two rear bolt locking lugs, one the huge bolt
handle and another added that locks in rear bridge. The front lugs
still contact on their top 40 %. This is concept from earlier shown
Mauser shotgun conversions, where they were made from 98
Mausers, giving a bolt action 12ga.This one is chambered for
my belted 700H 3.25" case, as a load developement test gun.
Loads up to 825 gr at 2500 so far. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/325b.jpg

Bullshop
10-21-2007, 01:17 AM
hubel458
You are a sic puppy. 850gn at 2500 fps! Whats it for hard rock mining, well drilling, pile driving? Actually now it sounds quite versatile.
BIC/BS

rvpilot76
10-22-2007, 01:28 AM
Now, that's a man's gun! Too bad the dinosaurs are extinct; they'd make the ultimate dangerous game animal. I'd love to see this thing fired on video! Make that 577 T-Rex look like child's play!

Kevin

hubel458
10-24-2007, 01:05 AM
Fellows- This won't treat you like the way too light Trex gun in video.
I has the weight and a thick pad, and being thumbhole you couldn't
let it fly away nohow. It's a hairy ride but it won't hurt. Make your ears ring
if you don't use ear plugs. Its heavier loads as well as 12GA FH, sound like
a tank gun going off to bystanders. Ed

hubel458
10-26-2007, 01:11 AM
The three From Hell cartridges----
My 28GA FH, 2nd Our 12GA FH, can
you guess the 3rd?. What do readers think. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8fh.jpg

hubel458
10-27-2007, 12:39 AM
It is the 8GA From Hell, a real cartridge. 4.3 inch long
brass case. 8 ga shorter plastic case, plan on in same chamber.
The brass kiln gun case isn't as long as mine. Where do
you find the rare 8 ga brass kiln gun cases.
Looking now for guns or actions and barrels. I make it
from 20mm Suzy brass(20mm Hispano Suiza), by putting
on a 8ga size rim and reshaping like we did 12GA FH....Ed

hubel458
11-02-2007, 12:40 PM
Who has 8 ga lead slugs.Ed

hubel458
11-05-2007, 12:33 PM
8ga, we gonna do a couple, first one a test
gun in an Enfield with rear locking lugs added.
All locking is in the rear, it is not exactly like
my 700HE one,as both lug seats gone in the
front like a Mauser 12ga shotgun.
May have a way to get barrels 'fast'---
fast being like 2 weeks, from the time I
have money to do it. And only about
150 bucks each.......Am working on it.
In pic you see long case sticking out of
the action, a couple 8ga plastic cases, a
couple of the 8ga kiln slugs, 3 oz and
hardened. Am looking for a slug built like the
Federal 10 ga one that has rounded nose and
hollow base, that fits bore tight, for smoothbore.
The barrels I am working deal on will be smoothbore.Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/8fhe.jpg

wonderwolf
11-07-2007, 01:55 PM
HOLY CRAP MAN....Where will it end? I've been following the 12ga FH on several boards now for a while. I would really like a 12gaFH side by side or bolt action. [smilie=1:

Whats the recoil calculators say about what your pushing?

hubel458
11-10-2007, 01:59 PM
There is recoil but i don't dwell, I add
weight and thick pads.Get right balance.
Howabout this Long Tom slug gun from our
short barrel Win 87.....Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/87L.jpg

hubel458
11-19-2007, 11:58 PM
Got an 8ga barrel blank being made now,
will be here end of the week.Found this
info on plastic 8ga kiln gun loads, they
load a frangible 710gr slug at 2300-
for 8300ft lbs, load 1275gr hard slug to
1700, 8100 ft lbs. We will outdo those easy
with our non-shotgun powder loads, in
a heavy barrel. We setup an Enfield for 8ga.
In the 87 long barreled gun we will be testing
Breneke slugs. Guys are reporting good accuracy
in smooth and rifled barrels. The pictured barrel
on 87 is smooth and we will see how the
slugs in pic stand some speed.Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/bren.jpg

lar45
11-27-2007, 07:18 PM
Ed, Looks like you've been busy.
For smooth barrels have you thought about 4130 or 4140 DOM tube? They come in quite a variety of sizes. You just have to find a steel shop that won't charge you for a whole stick to cut off 30".
Any chance of getting some close up pics of the rear lugs on your Enfield?

hubel458
12-01-2007, 03:17 AM
I will try to get good pics of just the bolt, and I am looking at the
4130-4140 seamless tubing for 4bore, 2bore, and maybe save time.
Tested 35" smooth barrel in 1887. Got couple
1 oz foster slugs over 2400, with 110gr
of 4227. 3" plastic case, regular primers.
This is a heavy barrel for that type of load,
don't do this in your 12ga skinny barrels.
The 28GA FH cases on the way.Chambering
bolt gun for it now..Ed

Aaron
12-07-2007, 12:10 PM
I have a Tar-Hunt 12 ga with a 2 3/4 inch chamber. I would like to try groove diameter slugs in this. Hubel458, did you have moulds for this?

Thanks

Aaron

hubel458
12-09-2007, 07:28 PM
No, I don't do any casting. I get hardened slugs from Dixie.
Their 600 gr is perfect, and they have 750gr.
Lee and others make different molds for groove diameter,
.729 inch or more slugs. Can the Tarhunt mag be set up for 3"
cases, they have the strength for more velocity, and 3"
cases help to get more, with our loads.Ed

hubel458
12-14-2007, 12:28 AM
In the 87 long smooth barrel got
1 oz Brenneke to 2400 with 110gr
of 4227, You could use 4759 and
VV110 also at lesser amounts.
Barrel is cylinder bore size.
Brenneke slugs need no wads as the
locked on wad works good.Ed
And going heavier in 87 got 600 grain
Dixie over 2000, got a Buckhammer slug
I took out of factory load over 1900.
Buckhammer and locked on wad is 630
gr. Tested in 3" plastic cases.

The firing pin on the 87 didn't protude out
like I like them to as it comes from factory,
so I removed .015 from the hammer stop.
It fires big and small primers perfect.Ed

Aaron
12-14-2007, 04:52 PM
Hubel458,

Unless I get a new stock and have it reworked to not use the detachable magazine, I can't do the 3 inch.
I am having a mould made for my bolt gun.I am figuring on a LFN style solid base boolit. I am figuring on having a crimp groove added for giggles. I was thinking of maybe having the option of shortening brass cases and crimping the boolit on like a regular straight wall case. I would be limited to an oal of about 2.45 inches. What are you using to size brass cases? Shellholder? roll crimp die? Bell die? Seater die?

Other thoughts I had were that maybe I need to use plastic cases or brass cases with the boolit seated inside the case so that as the crimp opens, it helps keep the boolit from getting cocked in the throat. Might help with accuracy. My goal is to have a bullet accurate out to 200 yds with as much velocity attainable at recoil levels useable in this shotgun. I am not recoil shy. I routinely shoot my elk rifles. For the timber, an 8 pound 416 Taylor and my open country gun is a 9 pound 338/378 Kugla Khan-no brakes, they are too loud! Anyway, I am hoping for 1700 fps and deal with drop and windage, I mainly want the bullet to remain stable and accurate.
I also plan on building loads for a TarHunt converted Remington 870. I intend for this to be an accurate brush thumper.

Aaron

hubel458
12-14-2007, 05:58 PM
Aaron you could shorten Rocky Mtn brass cases and crimp in a groove,
but plastic cases are only pennies each while good brass ones are
6 bucks each. Seated and roll crimped in plastic it will still have
the same room under the slug for powder as a real short brass one.
And the pressure our slower powder loads has is ok for plastic.
And cheap brass cases like the baloon head Magtech or others
aren't any stronger than plastic, For sizing my brass cases long or
short I use some big Hollywood 12ga dies that are threaded for
my big ammomaster press. Do you use a roll crimper that fits
in a drillpress. Tha's best for plastic.Ed

Aaron
12-15-2007, 02:13 PM
Ed,

What is the longest slug length I could use with only a card in a 2 3/4 inch case? Planning on using 4227 or 4759 at 1400-1500 fps.

Buckshot- I am planning on doing a LBT LFN-Can you hollowpoint it? What will happen to stability?

Thanks

Ken Campbell, Iowa
12-16-2007, 07:25 AM
Hi Guys ... WOW ! What an interesting thread. AWESUM !

A friend and I are pursuing a somewhat similar project, using a 20 ga. H&R.

I put a photo or 2 on the 20 gauge slug thread, Cast Boolets.

**********
Our slightly different goal is a reduced capacity case ( turned ) with a heeled bullet ( so far ) .... of 0.625 or so diameter, and 400-550 grains soft lead. We will try something about 1000 fps, and see if that is enough to drop a Iowa Whitetail ... We have experienced several instances of using the old Foster slugs, of hitting the deer solidly in the shoulder, and the slug fails to break down the deer; not enough penetration !! The shoulder shot is the preferred one to us, lots of brush and other hunters (g) and we like to see them drop right here and now!

So we are turning cases with reduced powder chamber ( starting with 5/16 diameter ) and will work up as needed . The idea is that ignition will be more positive with reduced chamber.

*********
Anyone else interested in the pipsqueek 20 gauge slugsters (g), feel free to drop me an email ; we are a cnc job shop, would be glad to help you with any special parts for your own project.

Oh yeah, we are looking at those 4 bore cases, if you are into that, we might be running some in the near future. my gawd .... what have we wrot???

regards, ken campbell
www.deltainc-usa.com

Dixie Slugs
12-16-2007, 12:09 PM
Intreresting! Dixie Slugs developed a 1050'/" load for the 20 bore that has a .625"-500 gr hard cast heated slug/bullet. The design was aimed at a softer recoil load for the NEF 20 ga Tracker.
What has been interesting is there have been many deer and hogs killed out to 100 yards! At those velocity levels, one needs a hard slug/bullet for penetration.
When dealing with slug/bullets from 500 gr up to 730 grs, you do not need hyper velocity for a go killin load.
Regards, James

Ken Campbell, Iowa
12-18-2007, 09:58 PM
Hi, for youse guys playing with converting rifle actions to shotgun slug use, has anyone played with the French Mas military action?

While a bit ugly (g)... it has mid locking lugs, and that might be much simpler than welding lugs on a mauser etc. I had 3 of these, but sold them all, and so cant furnish measurements now ... I always thought it would be interesting to put a medium case and a quality barrel on one .... even a 2.5 inch 20 gauge 600 grain slug at 1300 fps or so should be enough medicine for a usa combat critter ...

....... oh, one question ... who is making some medium heavy shotgun barrel blanks that a feller could purchase ??... and how good are they, as a guess .... my projects are kind of aimed at accuracy, and light loads so I can shoot a lot ... well, with a big sissy bag ...

thanks, everyone, ken campbell, deltawerkes.

hubel458
12-23-2007, 11:32 PM
A 600 gr Dixie works great in 2.75" case. They're .75" long.

Pacnor makes 12ga blanks. Some guys have built 20ga
with 3.5" RMC brass cases. The Dixie slugs are great as they
are hard. Their 600g 12ga is the worlds best. Now new stuff.

10GA FH..a NEF 10ga, medium to heavy wt smooth barrel.
28" long, gun weighted to 14lbs. Factory FED 765gr loads
are 1300 fps. 200 gr of first powder tested is 7383 surplus
and the regular shotgun primers got 765 gr to 1600,
for 4300 ft lbs. Case won't hold anymore 7383.
Federal factory hollowbase slug is .025" smaller than
10ga bore. I bumped it up to the .775" size, by expanding
hollow base. With 7383 that gave 1750 fps.Fast starting
shotgun powders expand base better than much slower 7383.
The Federal factory load has 120gr of wads/seals about 1.4"
long. Better to replace with much more slower powder,
getting better velocity, still at low shotgun pressures.
We will test 4227 with the same slug , and saboted slug
of some design. We roll crimped with crimper in drill press.
Case expansion with 7383 very little(.006") like
the factory loads. 3.5" plastic.Used one .050 wad.Ed

mroliver77
12-25-2007, 02:55 AM
Ed,
I have had the idea of a .410 Hot Rod for some time and am fascinated by your postings on the 12gauge. I see some very usefull hunting loads comming out of your testing or at least some great data to work up some specialty slug rounds from. Us folks in shotgun only zones with short seasons need all the help we can get. I would love to see some accuracy reports, chamber drawings (throat design) and would really love some actual range tradjectory reports say out to 300 yards. Thanks for all you have shared so far. Jay

reboundspring
12-25-2007, 04:16 AM
Gents,
I'm new to the site. Years ago I built a 12 ga rifle based on a Greener Martini
action, with Fajen wood, and a rifled 12 ga bbl from a maker i can't remember!
Twist on the bbl is 1-60. I made my own half reamer, nothing for 12 ga
rifles being available at the time.
The chamber was cut to fit thick wall brass turned cases. The chamber has
a throat and leade similar to a regular lead bullet rifle. It shoots a short
paradox style bullet pretty well. It weighs around 560 grains.
I have a longer 770 grain pointed HB bullet for it, that gives only fair
accuracy. Both bullets are groove dia (.730) and I use SPG, or Blue Lube.
Max velocity with IMR 4198 is 1788 fps. Primers are Large Rifle Mag.

Does it seem like the bbl twist is too slow for the velocity?, Or is 3" at 100 yds
par for the course for a 5 shot group?

thanks,
reboundspring

hubel458
12-25-2007, 10:24 AM
When slugs start getting above an ounce you need a
1 to 35 twist like NEF and Savage uses. i want to do
a Greener in the future also.Ed

reboundspring
12-25-2007, 07:04 PM
Hubel,
I guess the slow twist is why it shoots a round ball really well!
The Paradox bullet is built sort of like a Lee REAL bullet. A ball with
a very short shank.
To shoot the heavy stuff, a faster twist is needed? Who makes a Good 12 ga
barrel suitable for lead bullets? I saw PacNor mentioned.
My experience with PacNor is very limited. One 3R bbl in .308, only.
It shot pretty well on a reworked Rem 700, but not up to an Obermeyer
or Krieger. I don't mean to step on toes, if PacNor is your favorite.
I know their 6mm and .22 bbls show up well in benchrest competition.
Any Opinions, or does anybody feel that gilt-edged accuracy in a 12 ga rifle
is a non-issue!
Thanks Hubel and All
Reboundspring

Greg5278
12-25-2007, 07:34 PM
I've got one leftover 12ga 1 in 28 Canted land barrel billet left. It is stainless, and a collaborative effort I put together with Pacnor, and Clearwater reboring. It is 29" long and 1.350: diameter if I remeber correctly. I'm getting mine rebarreled now. It should be done in 2 weeks. You should do better than 3" at 100yards with yours. The 1 in 66 should shoot my 770grain solid fine, it is .785" long, so it is about 1 caliber in length.
Greg

reboundspring
12-27-2007, 02:50 AM
Greg,
Tell me more! Is your billet for sale, or going on your rifle?
What does your 770 gr solid look like? Is it something you designed?
Did you make your own mold or have it done out?
I'm curious, as I lathe bored mine. It's aluminum, with a steel cutoff, and base plug.
I pour the big bullet in 1-20 alloy. Should i go harder on the alloy?
Any chance the soft alloy could contribute to the modest accuracy?
Thanks!
Reboundspring

Greg5278
12-27-2007, 10:00 AM
The Billet is for sale, as it was ordered, but the Guy now wants to sell it. It is for sale for about 1/2 of what is would cost to remake it. My 770grain slug is a solid base Truncated cone, and was made before Mountain molds stopped making 12 ga molds. It is oversize, but I have a custom 12ga sizing die to bring it down to .729". It should require less twist than your 770, because it must be shoter. The HP makes the bulet longer for the same weight. Send me an email, and we'll see what we can work out. The barrel was cut with rifling I designed/requested. Boots Obermeyer was consulted on the Cutter design, and land profile. It is a 7 land version of the familiar 5R profile. The land has an angle on it to stress the bullet less, and to lessen fouling, regullar rifling is a pain to clean in a shotgun. The old bore rifles had a radius or angle at the bottom of the land and groove juncture.

You could try shooting WW alloy slugs in your gun, I don't think bullet hardness is the issue. I don't know what your bullet looks like, or if the rifling is stripping, but I doubt it. You might have to step up the velocity with the 770 if you don;'t have enough twist. Is the action suitable for slightly over Shotgun pressure? I have pressure tested loads in the 14-17K PSI range that you could use. They were developed in the pressure gun with my 880grain slug, and IMR 4227 and 4759. The 880 will do 1500FPS + at 15K pressure. Brass cases would help if the action is strong enough. Is it going to be a Shotgun, or a true Bore Rifle?

my email is: gksappington@aol.com
Greg

Aaron
01-03-2008, 01:16 AM
Well, I loaded up some of Jame's slugs, the 730gr ones. I am going to get my Tar Hunt on paper with 55gr loads of 4759. Then I am going to work up checking velocity, hoping for 1400-1500. Sat. we'll see what happens.

Aaron

hubel458
01-05-2008, 12:58 PM
In 10GA NEF 110gr 4227 got 765gr slug
to 1800, ejected ok. If it was a really
heavy barrel it could do more.Using the
7383 surplus at 150 gr, don't even have
to resize to fire 3 times. The 28GA FH
done and testing in next couple weeks.Ed

Dixie Slugs
01-07-2008, 01:11 PM
I might add something here for all of you to argue about.....rifling twist!
There has been some discussion here about our Dixie Terminator slug/bullet - .730"diameter x.735"length - 730 gr. Now..as you can see that slug/bullet is about "squared" meaning the diameter equals the length and will be stabilized in down to a one turn in 108".....same as a ball (which is squared)....check Greenhill.
Now...It will also shoot well in todays fast twist barrel since it is very hard and will not strip....but, I do think it would be more accurate from that slow twist.
All of you know, or should know, that the required twist is related to the length of the projectile.....ergo today's fast twist barrels set up for long sabot loads.
I will not begin to get into a peeing contest over what is the ideal slug/bullet weight and velocity. Dixie takes a much simpler approach....match the designs the Brits used in Africa/Indai with the 12 bore Paradox gun. The black powder load was around 1000'/"....as is our 12 bire Stryker. Their Smokeless (Cordite) loads was arouns 1200'/".....Dixie's Terminator is 1250'/" from a 20" rifled barrel.
It is very interesting to see all the advanced work done on 12 ga, etc...but we have to consider what recoil, etc the shooter will get from the guns they buy and shoot! With this in mind, I do not want anyone to think Dixie is behind the times with their load lines! We design, make, and sell ammo for the average hunter/shooter!...and have been rather sucessful, based on our production figures.
We did quite a bit of work for another group wanting a low velocity/low recoil target load. In essence it later became our Stryker 12 - .730"-730 gr @ 1050'/" (note it matches the blackpowder Paradox load)....but, their accuracy did not match what we get on a daily test?....could it be they were pushing another brand of ammo?....I think so!
What has turned out is that 1050'/" load, used in the light NEF 12 ga Tracker has put down a great deal of hogs and deer!
I will say this to all those working on advanced loads....very few slug/bullets are going to perform at those velocity figures. It does seems that everyone is more interested in velocity than how the bullet performs.....on game, tanks, elephants, or whatever.
Dixie's position is simple.....if it will not sell to the general public, it's a hobby. But there is nothing wrong with that and maybe some future designs will evole from the work.
Now that I have stirred the pot, have at it!
Regards, James

hubel458
01-09-2008, 09:49 PM
The best 12ga slug going is the Dixie 600gr,
and the way our hopped up loads are they
are for heavier rifled barrel guns. Not for the
regular lighter guns that Dixies makes their loads
for. And it's fairly accurate in my long brass case
at high speeds, open sights, and bad eyes.
Three inch group at 50 yds, with hot loads,
and you back off little, it will do that at a 100yds.

Fired 28GA FH-- Cases extract easy.--It is
in bolt action Enfield. With 550gr jkt slug,
full load 150 gr of WC-860, got 1900 fps.
This will be slowest load and powder.
In picture is 3.25" brass 28ga cases, regular
28ga plastic case, jkt slugs, a 458Win
for comparison.Regular cases work also.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/28fhb.jpg

Dixie Slugs
01-09-2008, 11:31 PM
Thanks for the comment on our 600 gr slug/bullet! We just got the mold back yesterday from Pedersoli in Italy. They copied the bullet (in pure lead) for their double 12 bore ML. They may even make molds for it for sale in Europe.
I will say this....any slug/bullet that will stand up to Ed's cannons, will handle anything that walks.
Ed is correct....we sell to a different market, but having said that....Ed's work sure shows good design bullets from poor designs.
However, we full bore makers and shooters must be very careful around the sabot fellows....some think they have the handle on rifled barrels!
Best Regards, James

hubel458
01-11-2008, 02:04 AM
James- Hooray you got it back -- can you make some more this winter.
Will call next week to order a hundred or more.Ed

Dixie Slugs
01-11-2008, 12:24 PM
Hello Ed....I will see if we can fit it in. It might be of interest that Pedersoli copied the slug and have tested it a great deal in their ML rifled double, pure lead of course. The 600 grainer regulates at about 60 yards in the gun with the same powder charges use with ball.. They may have molds for sale through Dixie?????????
We will be retesting that bullet in a load I have been thinking of. The 600 gr ail give less recoil than the 730 gr....and I what to see what velocity we can get. Of course, we have to stay within a recoil level the average shooter/hunter wants.
Regards, James

hubel458
01-14-2008, 12:36 AM
28ga cases are made by Rocky Mtn Cartridge,
Barrel is rifled with 4 grooves, 1-22 twist.
You could do one on Savage 210.Another
shotgun bolt action that would handle it
with little work, heavy barrel, is the
395-495-595-695 bolt action Mossberg.
Just to show that 28GA FH isn't puny, here is
picture of it next to a 505 Gibbs.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/28fhg.jpg

hubel458
01-19-2008, 12:54 AM
Here is picture and info on Royal
Arms' site for hopped up 12ga loads,
used in little cannons for bomb work.
Anyone got any of these fired that I could inspect to see how they are built.ED

http://www.royalarms.com/EOD/ammo/canonammo.gif

Ricochet
01-19-2008, 02:46 PM
Lots of those are electric primed, I see.

hubel458
01-28-2008, 11:26 AM
I like the Savage 210 so I'm putting
a 700 barrel on one and chambering for
my 700H 3.25 case. Working on it now.
It is a straight belted case, .700 cal.
Should get the same energy levels as
the 12GA From Hell case in same action.
In pic is 700H case in the action.
There is guy building a 600 Nitro
in 210 also. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/325c.jpg

hubel458
02-06-2008, 04:31 PM
28GA FH research. Guy on forums suggested using 54cal
rifled barrels for 28ga as they are easy to get. I looked into
it and did some testing. It is ok as long as you keep bullet
about 400gr as most 54cal barrels are not super alloy.
You got to use the thick heavy ones also, being stronger.
And everyone with 28ga wants slugs and there is no slug loads
from factory, and to reload the heavier bullets we shouldn't use
these barrels or regular 28ga barrels with 600-700 gr slugs.
But there are couple dozen 54cal bullets out there
stocked all over the gunstore shelves, in weights from 300 to
450 gr. There are heavier but for 28GA FH on deer 400gr is
great. I tested the 405 gr copper plated Powerbelt brand, with
velocities from 2300 to 2800 plus fps. That's 6500 ft lbs.
The 54cal slugs load tight in the RMC 3.25" 28ga case fine by
sizing top a little tighter. Bullet obturates to fit .550 bore
as bullet is hitting target straight. A lot of 54cal barrels
go from 530 to 560. 54cal slugs range from .534 to .560"
There are different sizes of 28ga barrels and chokes,
so some where there is lighter 54cal slug that fits..
And with light slugs the pressure limits with the MRC brass
match top muzzle loading pressures, so these barrels will work.
And great thing is the 54cal barrel guys ain't allergic
to making long barrels. Oh, I've shot one MRC case 15 times and
still going strong...Ed

hubel458
02-12-2008, 03:12 PM
28GA FH testing. 405 gr in 2.75" plastic case
got 1400. Tested the Great Plains 54cal
lubed slug, runs from 2200 to 2700. It is
by Hornady and its front band actually measures
.550" and hollowbase. They hit target straight.
Got a bunch of 415gr hollowbase coming that
are 548" from Dixie Gunworks. Only 26 cents each.
All will work in plastic or long brass
case. I found another .550 bbl and coming, and
it will go on a Mossberg bolt action
for the second 28GA FH to test.. Ed

hubel458
02-19-2008, 11:08 PM
tested the 415 gr hollowbase slugs in 28GA FH long
brass case. These are ones that Dixie Gunworks sell
that they call their Sharps .548" slug. They all run
about .008 bigger than that so they make perfect tight
fit for .550" barrel, and I used a good lube on them
in the grooves. They are a little harder alloy slug than
the Powerbelts or Great Plains The 28ga shellholder
for our Lee, Lyman, Rcbs presses , we use, is from
RCBS for regular metallic press rams. For 28ga dies
Hollywood made some for metallic presses.Also for
sizing for bottom 2/3 of the brass case you can cut
top off of the 500J die.The slower powder loads don't
even have to have the bottom half sized, which
is great for a turned case. If we had drawn brass cases
we could get 11,000 ft lbs, in the Enfield, which we
don't really need for deer. 4-6000 ft lbs ok/deer ..Ed

hubel458
02-29-2008, 11:17 PM
Here is picture of a jacketed hollowpoint
12ga slug a fellow is going to make for us.
We hope to have tooling set up this summer
we plan on. Next to it is a 600gr Dixie hardened
slug. First ones he will probably make will
be about 700-750 gr.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12h.jpg

Dixie Slugs
03-01-2008, 11:08 AM
For your information...Dixie is now testing a higher velocity load using the Dixie bullet shown on Ed's picture. Pressure testing, with our new powder, will be done in March. We hope to have loads ready for the John Linebaugh Seminars.
The bullet is .727" (perfect for the .727" grooves in Hastings barrels) and weighs in at 600 grs (like the old Greener load). It is also hard cast and heat treated.....hollow base with thick skirts (no wads blown in the cavity). If everything pans out....it will go into the line as the Dixie Tusker.
Just some thoughts!...Regards, James

hubel458
03-11-2008, 10:58 PM
James- That is great news. That hardened slug is the best 12ga lead slug
anybody ever made, even as good or better as the jacketed one above.
It is good your doing a bunch ,as I will need some when weather clears for
a variety of load tests.

In the 87 Win Levergun, smooth barrel,
long barrel, using brass RMC 3" cases,
1 oz Brenneke KO slug to 2700 with 4227
powder. Shotgun primer. I will be getting
some 3.5" RMC brass that he will put a special
longer corner radius in, to allow faster loads
with less case expansion and easier resizing.
Should get same slug to 3000 and resize
easier also. With shotgun primer able to use
4227, and you WON"T have to rework hammer
or firing pin to do big primers.

Santa sent me 9 more PROP cases used in little
cannons for bomb disposal. Got 12 now.Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/pc1.jpg

Dixie Slugs
03-11-2008, 11:41 PM
I am being quite candid when I state Dixie is not sure just what the customer wants? We have people that want heavy weight slug/bullets....but with little recoil!....that is not possible! We have people that want flat trajectory,. We have people that want extreme penetration. We have people that want extreme cavity......and on and on! Many want a flat 200 yard slug load....really?
To be qquite frank, that is the reason we are bring out the Tusker. They will have a choice that I do not think is offered by the big makers.
The Dixie Terminator has been public tested and the results can stand alone with well documented results. The Dixie Tusker will follow the same path!
I must say that it is a far cry between experimentation and sales to the public. e have to develop products that will sell.....or die! The public can be fickle about saying they want something.....and many times will not buy it when it become available.
We are just now beginning to understand what really happens on different cast bullet designs. There are just many things that can not be calculated and must prove out with Gut-Pile-Analysis
Regards, James

hubel458
03-30-2008, 11:16 PM
THE 8GA FH BELLERED TODAY. It is in Enfield I rigged with
rear locking bolt lugs. 32" barrel, tested 3.3" plastic cases.
Cases are the REM kiln gun cases. With the double cup base.
I shaved base a little so that chamber will fire these as well as
regular 8ga plastic. None of the firing today expanded base cups
at all, so they are real strong cases. Started testing to check
ignition with shotgun primers and to see if cases are any
good. Starting with a 110 gr mouse ball, wad under it, and 150 gr
of Blue Dot, about 5000 fps.. Gun didn't even recoil.Then a
410 gr one at 3000 fps, Then a 770 gr hollowbase slug in a wadcup
up to 2000 so far with 180gr of 7383. Barrel is smoothbore. 832"
bore at the muzzle. Ed

hubel458
04-08-2008, 02:32 AM
8GA FH testing- using IMR 4759, 770 gr slug,
top load of 140 gr, got 2500 fps......
Over 10,000 ft lbs..Cases extract easy.
Here is picture of Enfield 8GA FH. You can see plastic case
in the port. Box of cases behind, 770 gr and 1050 gr
slugs in front with the 8ga wadcups I use.
Left two slugs are 1050 gr made from 3 oz kiln slugs.
I rounded nose and put in hollow base. Also the
cards and fiber wads used. Slugs are hollowbase, as
it is smooth bore barrel. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8en.jpg

hubel458
04-24-2008, 11:48 PM
Here is picture on left of the 12ga hollowpoint slug
with plastic tip. Makes it streamlined, good for 300yds.
And still will expand good thin skinned game-deer.
I put tip in with glue gun in few seconds, and
shaped a point on it with trim knife. Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/12hfill.jpg

hubel458
05-01-2008, 02:39 AM
On Fri May 2 8pm on the Science Channel ,they will have
an article about the heavy barrel cannons that shoot
the brass cases for bomb disposal.They are the same as
our 12GA FH case,when resized in my dies and are shown
in this thread a couple months back in picture.
It will show them using them for bomb disposal. Ed

hubel458
05-14-2008, 01:22 AM
Testing 8GA FH in Enfield, 1050 gr slug in wad cup, 120 gr
of 4759, over 2000 fps. Cases extract easy. Hardly any
base cup expansion..Here is picture of a
sectioned 8ga plastic case I did,
showing how heavy and strong it is built. The
plastic is one piece compressioned formed and
the sides of the cases are twice as thick as
12ga cases.You can see the double thickness
of the base cup. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8sec.jpg

hubel458
05-22-2008, 01:21 AM
Here is picture of the bolt setup for the 8ga
Enfield we did.Also comparison to a Mauser
12ga shotgun bolt conversion, from which
I got the concept. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bh.jpg

hubel458
05-31-2008, 12:43 PM
I was asked how I got 8ga heavy barrel so quick.
First it is smoothbore, second a 110 bucks total shipping and all.
First I bought a 1.5 inch dia 4130 alloy, heat treated, shaft,
32" long. Then I had a deep hole drilling company drill
a .832" hole in it. Came out centered on both ends.
Then after it got here I used cylinder hone to polish
the inside of the bore. Threaded it, chambered it, and put
in the Enfield bolt action. The heat treating it has is just like
the barrel stock that barrel guys get. Ed.

skeptic
06-01-2008, 10:46 AM
Awesome project.

hubel458
06-13-2008, 01:09 AM
For those wanting to see video of the 12GA FH in
the Savage busting big pail of water, one of the
kids posted it on Youtube- Titled "Grampa's Cannon".
I just found out that it is on there.
This was the video that the still pictures posted
before, was taken from. They have the sound
muted so as not to hurt camera sound system. Ed

hubel458
06-18-2008, 12:18 AM
Load of 12 triple ought buckshot in 8ga. They are
70gr each, total 840 gr, and over 2000 fps with
125 gr of 4759. Ed
Here is URL for the waterpail busting video above--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUNHszY4ACM

hubel458
06-24-2008, 10:38 AM
There are now two videos of 12GA FH on YouTube,
exploding big heavy walled pails of water.
The "Grampa's Cannon" one with a long view,
and "Grandpa's First Shot" a closeup video,
the first one, that shows how the top of heavy
shelf got bent. Later kids will do videos showing
muzzle blast and recoil.
Also the 3 ought buckshot from the 8ga load
above goes through 2" hardwood ok. I will test
8ga on waterpail also, to see what happens. Ed

hubel458
07-03-2008, 11:42 PM
Here is pic of Mossberg 695 that will be the
second 28GA From Hell.You can see long
brass case in the port.Here is URL of
the "Grandpa's First Shot" video. Ed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c48zTpsgbuk

http://www.gunownerstv.com/moss28.jpg

hubel458
08-07-2008, 02:40 AM
Here is closeup pic of Rob's 12GA FH, a Borchardt falling block
action. Real nice. In picture is along brass 12ga case with one
of Rob's 2000gr bore rider, solid, streamlined slugs. Ed


http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/2430DSC00694.JPG

hubel458
08-13-2008, 10:34 PM
Got my long 700 HE case chambered barrel
finally in a bmg size action. It is barrel
I locked onto an I-beam and got testing and
load developement done over the last couple
years. Max load about 23,000 ft lbs.
It weighs 27 lbs, laminated thumbhole stock,
a max size pad, weighted butt, a reinforced
wrist, recoil barrel ring on front of stock.Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/700helr.jpg

hubel458
08-24-2008, 02:14 AM
Here is picture of a neat scaled up Sharps replica
that would handle out 12GA FH and my 700HE.
That outside hammer looks great. From a magazine
article in Very High Power...Ed

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/RIPtorn/Bradley50BMG4.jpg

hubel458
08-29-2008, 01:34 AM
Here is a pic of a projectile idea Rob had. We will test it later
this fall, It is 12ga bore rider design Body is Aluminum, and it
will have a heavy 50 cal insert in the nose made from tungsten
or similiar metals. In the picture he put a 50 cal bullet in for
show. The insert in the nose will be flush with front of the
AL carrier. It should be stable at slow twists and if built
with back and front same diameter stable in smoothbores.
The long lighter tail-end compared to heavy nose insert
will make it stable. Same principle Brenekke uses. This idea
is being explored to try to get superior penetration
from 12ga, with heavy, hard insert in the nose.Ed

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_01741.jpg

hubel458
09-04-2008, 11:53 AM
Here is another view of my 700HE blaster,
that I got rigged up on an action and stock.
Side view shows action with a aperture sight I
rigged up. Also cases. On left is 700H 3.25" case.
Center my 700HE, what the gun in picture has now.
Good for nearly 23,000 ft lbs, we attained in
a work up in testing with the barrel as a test
barrel with screw on testing receiver....Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/helr.jpg

hubel458
09-12-2008, 12:58 AM
Here is picture of another dart type 12ga slug Rob made. Body
is aluminum, it has a heavy tungsten carbide insert in the
nose. The TC in the nose is about 5 times denser than AL.
Total length is 2.35 inches, weight about 950 gr. The .75" long
insert a real tight type fit. Heat AL, put in insert, cools, locks on.
It is fairly streamlined, yet has wide meplat for penetration
in game. Flat points penetrate straighter in game.
It is hollow inside in the back, behind insert which puts the
center of gravity way up front, it should fly straight even from
a smoothbore. They are fast to make and material
less expense than copper.In pic is a copper and a brass 600
cal slugs for comparison. Dart/slug on right has insert.
Now for an explosive expansion version of the same concept,
you'd pour soft lead in the nose in place of hard insert..Still be
nose heavy to be stable. Ed

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/00312.JPG

hubel458
09-15-2008, 04:16 AM
Here are more samples of nice 12ga slugs.....Here is pic of
ones RG Henson sent. Jacketed 12ga. 715gr hollowpoints,
on the right and in front a jkt 675gr hollowbase.
RG's number 1-770-366-4846. These will be great for
shorter plastic and brass cases as well as long cases.
Other slugs in pic, in the back, left to right
Foster 436gr- Dixie 600gr- 750gr brass- my 750gr hollowbase
brass, and a hollowpoint I put a lightweight filler in the nose
for streamlining..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12hbhp.jpg

hubel458
09-17-2008, 02:37 AM
We get asked about availability of our long case.
So, any of you who might want some of the 12GA FH
brass cases made from BMG brass, we have the fellow who
had the idea about the 12GA FH first, Rob on AR forum,
is planning on making them. He has got the machines to do
it now, that we didn't have before. Let me know how many
you are interested in getting, so he can plan and figure
the best way . He has a bunch of BMG cases to start with,
he and I have places to get more.I'm posting this all over.Ed

hubel458
09-28-2008, 01:25 AM
Testing 715gr jacketed hollowpoint from RG Henson in Savage 210.
With 30 inch barrel, long brass 3.85" case, big primer.
Slightly hairy load 290gr RL22--2700 fps. Shot moderate load
of 300gr W-860 -- 2400 fps for 3 shot group of 3" at 50
yards with my bad eyes and peep sights. They shoot nice, they go
into target straight.. Other nice thing the price from RG,
for customers getting in on his first run, $1.25 plus shipping.
That is less than half of what other big bore jkt bullets cost.
Call him for some great slugs. They are great like
the Dixie slugs. Ed

hubel458
10-01-2008, 11:37 PM
Lookee what another santa sent me.
A regular BMG case on the left, and
a straight BMG case on the right, and it
CAME FROM THE MANUFACTURER THAT WAY.

It is primer cartridge for large guns and howitzers.
It is used in those guns/cannons that have powder in big bags.
It is filled with powder and inserted into cannon breach and
when fired sets off the larger charge. On some cannon breaches
they have an automatic feed for these with a huge 40 round
drum magazine. This on is marked IVI 89 C67. IVI is Canadian.
On these breaches it is held by collet fingers for head space
and for ejection.

Ok, there are many thousands more of these out there than the
PROP cases I showed before. We need to find few barrels of these
and have Rob, etal, put on rims.... no annealing.....no fireforming,
just slight resize to 12GA FH. Please help if you know of any.
They would save so much work and time..And even though fired
the bases are perfectly straight, another plus.....Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bmgs.jpg

hubel458
10-05-2008, 11:54 PM
Going to test various of our slug loads in a 12ga Encore
Prohunter this month, see if it does like the NEF Ultra.Ed

hubel458
10-12-2008, 11:33 PM
We will be testing a fellows 1400gr slugs for
getting safe loads for him, in 3.5" plastic.
Also in a couple months Rob, who's idea the 12GA FH
was will be able to deliver the super strong 12GA FH
cases made from BMG brass. And the they will be
headstamped, all done by his CNC machine.Ed

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSC_02111.JPG

hubel458
10-15-2008, 01:05 AM
RIP on AR Big bore forum is doing 835 Mossy and 1400gr Darwin cast slugs.
A 14.5 pound Ulti-Mag. The hollow part of the butt is filled with about 5.5 lbs of lead shot and epoxy. Has 4X Sightron in QRW rings. Do 3.5" plastic hulls with the Darwin in it first. It balances on the trigger. Loading the magazine with 4 and one up the spout will add about 1.25 pounds if the 5 rounds are "Darwins," and move the balance point to the front of the triggerguard.
It is heavier rifled 24" chromoly alloy barrel.

Brett in MN has Mossy 835, only with smoothbore barrel and gets
1oz finned plastic tail Ballistic Products slug to 2300 fps,
using shotgun powder.Ed



http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/RIPtorn/shogun/100_1443.jpg

hubel458
10-18-2008, 12:47 AM
Still testing 8ga I have setup in the Enfield.
It has a long smooth barrel. Those 8ga
heavy plastic cases are great. Fire them 4 times with
no resizing. Here is pic of cast slugs used in 8ga..
One and two are 1015gr hollowbase. Three and 4 are
875gr hollowbase. On four the cushion base is cut off
so I can use card wad and have more room for
powder.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8slug.jpg

hubel458
10-22-2008, 01:27 AM
WE test both plastic and brass 3.5" cases to compare.
We got our RMC 3.5" brass 12ga cases. These are turned
cases using shotgun primer. They have nice thick base,
and a good radius in the corner. Got a Brenekke OK 437 gr
slug to 2800 fps, a 540gr Hammerhead slug to 2450. got 600gr
Dixie to 2300, the 715gr RG jacketed to 2130, and a 1400gr
Darwin to 1400 plus. Tested in NEF. Shot one case 15 times
and still going strong, tight primer, with loads running about
20- 24,000 psi.I have pics of cases soon, and we also will
test these brass ones and 3.5" plastic in 12ga Encore
Prohunter..Ed

hubel458
10-26-2008, 01:37 AM
Here is picture of RMC 3.5" cases with variety of slugs,
locked on wad slugs and sabots. There are 3 of our long cases
in back for comparison. The RMC turned cases have shotgun
primer. Case # 4 has 437gr slug in BPI SABOT( finally hard sabots
in 12ga for reloading), #5 437gr Brenekke KO slug, #6 540gr
Hammerhead slug, #7 600gr Dixie hard slug, #8 RG's 715gr
jacketed, #9 750gr solid brass. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/rmcc.jpg

hubel458
11-01-2008, 08:52 PM
Here is picture of a 12ga hard discarding sabot you can get
for reloading, the BPI. From Ballistic products. In picture
is sabot with cast 437gr Hornady Great Plains 50cal slug I put
in it. Also the 410 gr and 385gr Great Plains work.
Finally able to load your own instead of paying 3-5 bucks
each for loaded rounds.You can use the 500 S&W bullets also
as well as shorter 50 cal blackpowder slugs... Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bpi.jpg

hubel458
11-03-2008, 04:17 AM
Been testing the Encore with the Nef loads. Barrel breech is
one inch same as muzzle, where the NEF is 1.200".
It has dovetails cut out in bottom of the barrel for
the nuts for the forearm screws. ... At the bottom of dove tail
there is only .060" thickness. Before reaming had back one fill
welded as it was where the taper for the forcing cone ended up
with 3.5" chamber. I load it with 10 gr less powder than the NEF
on all different slugs and weights. Like the BPI sabot in 3.5"
plastic in NEF, 437 gr slug, 120gr 4227, 2400 fps, and in Encore
110gr 4227, 2270 fps. In 3.5" RMC brass case, same sabot/slug
in NEF 140gr 4227, 2600+ fps,Encore 130gr 4227, 2500.
The Encore is now 12 lbs, with hollow in butt and recesses in
forearm with lead shot.In pic you see NEF And Encore with RMC
brass cases started in chambers. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/nefen.jpg

hubel458
11-08-2008, 12:21 AM
See what's possible, original Savage 210 action/stock
the one I have our long case in. You can lengthen
magazine in the plastic stock for up to 3.5" RMC brass
cases, also 3.5" plastic cases. And you can open up
bottom of the action to match, and the other things
I did on the port, bolt travel, etc to feed cases.
I did mine with heavy wood stock in singleshot.
Using original plastic stock you weight the hollow butt.
Trigger assembly on these is back to leave space for this.
In picture you see stock original and stock mag longer.
Second picture is a 3.5" brass case and slug overall
length 3.7", in longer magazine. Brett in MN, who did this
first used the regular follower and mag spring ok,
it feeds ok for him. .. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/smag.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/smagb.jpg

hubel458
11-11-2008, 01:59 AM
Info to help loading BPI sabots in plastic,ok to use plastic
overwad over powder, but should use cardboard card and
nitro wads above that below the BPI sabot. Sabot doesn't
tear up and accuracy much better. Personally I use
cards over powder and nitro wads, And with used cases
roll crimping onto the thin edge of sabot is uneven, so with
my used cases I set the sabot and slug to right height and
just redo the 6 point star crimp real hard, and the middle of
all the crimp sectors set right on the flat nose of the slug
in the sabot. I also do the same with RG's 715gr hollowpoint
with the crimp sectors right on the hollowpoint in used cases.
Roll crimping holds RG's slug in ok but its taper of the ogive and
smoothness it doesn't open crimp all the way around when
fired. The star crimp set slug at same height so you can get
the same amount of powder. With RMC brass these are not
problems but with brass to get good feeding from mag rounding
front edge of mouth helps. Sectioned picture of RMC on right
next to our long original case to show how well it is built
thick and strong. One of cases has 20 firings, still good..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/rmcs.jpg

hubel458
11-16-2008, 01:45 AM
What others are doing hopping up loads and experimenting.
Brett in MN uses a Mossy 835 12ga smoothbore turkey gun, but
it is backbored 10ga size all the way out to end and has 10ga size
choke, and he uses 12ga AQ 441gr slug with locked on basewad, from
BPI. Using top rib bead sight only he can hit a pail 5 times in a row at
70 yds.Amazing accuracy for overbored barrel. He uses BPI X12X seal
plastic wad, two 1/4" white felt wads, thin card then the AQ slug,
with 65gr of Longshot getting 2200 fps. 3.5" new cases with
roll crimp.......I asked him check it with a scope on it sometime.

NFG from Greybeard and Shotgunworld with pump Mossy and 18.5"
with slug barrel. He gets a 525gr Lyman over 1800 fps with
80gr of 4759/4227 powder. Hard alloy mix Lyman and shot one through
17" of pine. Shown in the pic below it mushroomed to .800" and only
lost 8gr weight. It is a wasp waisted slug that is shot from a 12ga
regular WW12 shotcup. The skirt of the slug collapsed into the underside
of the nose. Many guys say that these are as accurate as most
other stuff used. He used 3" plastic, PGS wad over powder and
WW12 wadcup with slug it. He cuts wadcup petals back to length
of the Lyman.In pic on left you see the Lymans with hollowbase up
and the shape of it when starting out.

Ok I am going to get Lymans to test and Longshot to test.
Got to see if the Longshot will get further up in velocity
than Blue Dot. Ed

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/IM12Even/IMG_0439.jpg

hubel458
11-23-2008, 01:36 PM
Here is a Savage 210 with bottom of action opened up
toward the back, to take cases with 3.5" overall length.
Slug Warrior on Shotgun World did it. Is similiar job the
Brett in MN did, but he made his opening 3.7". I measured
mine and they can be opened to 3.95". They also milled
the rim guides back for controlling case feeding on longer
cases.Rim guides are angled in from the sides of the opening
toward back. This work on the stock/action can be done in a
mill or good drill press. To use 3.5" plastic the opening on
the action and magazine needs 3.25", for 3.0" brass if long loaded
3.5", if 3.5" brass about 3.7", if 3.5" brass long loaded, 3.95".
By long loaded I mean a slug like the Dixie 600gr that protrudes
up to .4"...Ed

http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/7339/s5000699ow4.jpg

hubel458
12-03-2008, 11:31 PM
We get asked about putting brakes on the NEF Ultra.
There is the concept called the internal brake that works
nearly as good as expansion brake, with less back noise.
Rob on AR did a couple with bunch of holes in the barrel
in the end with the last 1.5" bored out .025" where holes
go. Also many want more velocity in NEf and I added on
a barrel section to mine. Combining Ideas we add smooth
9" section of bore extension, that is same as groove diameter
and 1.5" end of that for internal brake. Eight 1/8" holes
top and same 45 degees to each side.And we have over
a 100 fps in velocity gain. And with card or wad behind load
it will seal pressure going from rifled section to smooth.
And these types of holes won't bother wads or sabots.
My extension is a foot longer and gets 150 fps extra.
No need for brake in mine as the gun is 17 lbs with extra bbl.
Here is Rob's two he fixed up, and is shooting.He has
them reamed out longer for long 3.85" case, weight added.Ed

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSC_0231.JPG

hubel458
12-09-2008, 06:36 AM
Here is a picture of porting holes in a 10ga NEF
heavy long smooth barrel. Bbl 30" and 1.080" muzzle
diameter behind the screw in choke area. This come
with slightly extended screw in choke and is first
10ga with long barrel as heavy as my NEF 12ga FH
short barrel was.. OR the short NEF 10 gauges
with heavy barrel..It came with full and mod chokes.
The other 10ga I tested earlier, only .960" at muzzle.
I cut choke off and put it back in leaving the barrel
an open bore for slugs and leaving an area 1.2" long
for an internal brake to drill all the holes in like
Rob did with NEFs in his picture. Now the 1.2" long
area where holes are is bigger than needed for 10 ga
so a reamer in the making will solve that and solve a
major big bore project for me and others who asked
me about using the short NEF 10ga for upgrade, which
I didn't encourage putting all that work on a short
barrel gun, with the amounts of powder that will be
burnt in....are you ready.......THE 8GA FH.......
I have 8ga FH loads tested in reworked Enfield.....Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/10brake.jpg

hubel458
12-10-2008, 02:12 AM
More info on the heavy barreled gun we plan on
making 8 gauge from. Nef SB2 103, 30" barrel,
regular stock. 220 bucks. 100 bucks for shop to
ream out to 8 ga smoothbore. Needs the 80 dollar
thumbhole stock. Nice deal for a modern 8ga, using
heavy duty plastic 3.3" long cases. I fired 6-8000
ft lb loads in one I made on Enfield, 4 times reloaded
without resizing cases.
Here is other project suggested by Boomie
on the AR big bore forum, the 16GA FH.
Cases made by me from bmg brass. Took 5 swagings, and
two turnings on my case spinner lathe.Two Annealings
Got couple cases made, in picture our 3.5" case and factory
16ga plastic case slug load. I'm getting test gun working
now and as for a supply of cases you all will have to
get with RMC if you want to rechamber a 16ga..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/16ls.jpg

hubel458
12-13-2008, 01:56 AM
Here is picture of my NEF 12GA FH as it is now,
A while back I got tired of short barrel and
added a foot on to it. Used breech end of left over
Savage and a sleeve. Lined up rifling and it has
same twist and number of rifling. Hard way to do
it. No need for rifling, or extra line up work.
Run many loads and it adds 150 fps with VV110,
4759, and 4227 powders. Adds about a 100 with
Blue Dot, and HS 7.

Next one will be done different and easier.
Next one will be a smoothbore add on piece of
groove diameter, 10-12 inches long, make it one
piece, 1 or 1 1/16" threads,about 1.2" diameter.
Threaded 1.5" long on original barrel, and into
add on piece, and will look like a brake and you
could put in internal brake in the end.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/neflb.jpg

hubel458
12-18-2008, 12:58 AM
Here is picture Stevens Revelation 350 16ga
now a 16GA FH. It got a 385 gr to 2000,
which is good for gun without a real heavy
barrel. I lengthened chamber for the
3.5" brass cases pictured that I made from
BMG brass. Anyone doing this can have cases
made by RMC. Gun is weighted to 11 lbs.
Action can handle more if barrel heavier. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/16rev.jpg