Leading with Lee Alox

[cricco]

I finally got the chance to shoot some of my 9mm cast boolits. These were the 124 grain Lee tumble lube variety. I used wheel weight lead, and the boolits were cast at .3585. I tumble lubed them using Lee Liquid Alox. They have been "fermenting" for about 2 months now. I was shooting them from a Glock 17 with a Lone Wolf barrel. My load was 5.7 grains of Ramshot True Blue. They feed flawlessly. They are also shooting as accurate as my Sierra 115 grain Matchkings. The issue is that I am getting some leading in my barell. This is a new barell, and I fired about a dozen jacketed match kings before shooting lead in hopes that it would smooth out any barell imperfections. Can anyone tell me what might be causing my leading?

[prickett]

I finally got the chance to shoot some of my 9mm cast boolits. These were the 124 grain Lee tumble lube variety. I used wheel weight lead, and the boolits were cast at .3585. I tumble lubed them using Lee Liquid Alox. They have been "fermenting" for about 2 months now. I was shooting them from a Glock 17 with a Lone Wolf barrel. My load was 5.7 grains of Ramshot True Blue. They feed flawlessly. They are also shooting as accurate as my Sierra 115 grain Matchkings. The issue is that I am getting some leading in my barell. This is a new barell, and I fired about a dozen jacketed match kings before shooting lead in hopes that it would smooth out any barell imperfections. Can anyone tell me what might be causing my leading?

I'm having exactly the same problem with a setup similar to yours (only difference is the powder). I pan lubed and found leading significantly reduced (but not eliminated).

The first question is whether you've slugged your barrel. Based on the size of your bullet, your bore should be .3575 or less.

If you didn't water drop, you could do that to increase the hardness of the bullet.

Others have suggested losing the TL mould and getting the conventional one. I tried the conventional one (luckily a buddy had one I could borrow) and found no improvement.

[leftiye]

Pan lube, get a better lube while you're at it maybe.

[cricco]

I did water drop these boolits. As for a better lube, I hear nothing but good about Lee Alox. What's better????

[MtGun44]

In my opinion, almost ANYTHING is better than Lee Liquid Alox. It seems to just barely
get by in some situations, esp with low velocity and other conditions that let it's apparently
very marginal lube capabilities just barely make it. I gave up on it a long time ago.

The TL designs are very short on lube quantity and it appears as if the Alox needs the beeswax
as much or more than the beeswax needs the alox in the old standard NRA formula 50/50
alox/beeswax lube used in many a conventional boolit design.

The only apparent advantage is that beginners can avoid the expense of a lubrisizer (which
Lee does not make, by the way) and MIGHT get ammo that works at a very low first cost.
I never recommend it to newbies unless cost is absolutely critical.

Bill

[Heavy lead]

I don't tumble lube at all anymore, but when I did I found that JPW mixed with the alox made all the difference in the world, in fact I used quite a bit of JPW on it's own and it works better than the alox alone too, plus it's hard and doesn't gunk stuff up.

[462]

cricco,
Try air-cooling, next time.

[captain-03]

In my opinion, almost ANYTHING is better than Lee Liquid Alox. It seems to just barely get by in some situations, esp with low velocity and other conditions that let it's apparently very marginal lube capabilities just barely make it. I gave up on it a long time ago. Bill

+1 -- tried it a couple of times with very mixed results .... agree; almost ANYTHING is better!!

[helg]

Lee recommends to apply the Alox twice: before and after sizing. Anyway, in a short pistol barrel lack of lube is very unlikely to be an issue.

I would better assume this is the other three reasons.
One is bullet too soft. Do you use clip-on WWs, or a mix of them with stick-ons?
Another is imperfect obturation, the diameters game. You did not mention that you size your bullet. Do they drop perfectly round from the mold?
The third one is bullet too hard, and it leads when being forced to the grooves.

[Recluse]

In my opinion, almost ANYTHING is better than Lee Liquid Alox. It seems to just barely get by in some situations, esp with low velocity and other conditions that let it's apparently very marginal lube capabilities just barely make it. I gave up on it a long time ago.

The TL designs are very short on lube quantity and it appears as if the Alox needs the beeswax as much or more than the beeswax needs the alox in the old standard NRA formula 50/50 alox/beeswax lube used in many a conventional boolit design.

Bill

Bound to happen. . .

Bill, this is probably the first time that I can ever recall that I absolutely disagree with you.

I know Ranch Dog had some very, very good results with his boolits and LLA--and he pushed the velocities on some of them pretty good, even though alox/xlox has never been known for high-velocities. And, I've never recommended it for high velocity loads.

I tumble-lubed some 148grn DEWC boolits with two light coats of LLA, slightly cut with mineral spirits, a few years ago. Lubed, sized, then lubed again as I was testing/trying out a Lee push-through sizer. These boolits had conventional lube grooves (not sure if Waksupi sold them to me or not. . . ).

Shot them out of three different S&W wheelguns--Model 686 hogleg, Model 586 four-inch, and Model 19 2 1/2" barrel. The boolits shot superbly (standard Bullseye 2.7 gr) load. Zero leading.

Tried the same thing a month or so later with a bevel-base .452 200 SWC boolit. Gave 'em 4.6 gr of Bullseye and got the same results--superb accuracy and zero leading. And this included one of my .45's (old Colt Gov't Series 70) that is bad for leading. First time that gun didn't lead--and to this day I only shoot tumble-lubed boolits lubed in a 45/45/10 mix through that particular gun. No leading.

The tumble-lube designed boolits? I'm not a fan of all of them, but I will say that my Number One boolit is the Lee TL158SWC in .358 lubed with the 45/45/10. It is other-worldly consistent and accurate in every single .357/.38 wheelgun I own and shoot. Leading simply does not happen either, regardless of what powder(s) I load with or charges.

Now, I've NEVER bought into the myth that you can simply cast, lube, load and shoot with zero sizing required on TL boolits. Lee states that you may not need to size, but Lee does not make an unequivocal or absolute statement to that effect. And therein is where I think a lot of folks new to casting have a bit of a problem.

The push-through sizers from Lee are a measly fifteen bucks. Not sure what Buckshot gets for his, but I understand he's very competitive.

Fifteen bucks to ensure that all your boolits are consistently sized. Heckuva deal.

Thing is, TL boolit molds and LLA is touted as the "beginner's combo" to casting, and I happen to personally disagree with that. TL boolit molds are a bit more finicky than conventional grooved molds. Lee-menting is a must for those molds, you need a bit of extra tin to ensure absolute perfect fillout, they need to be lubed/sized/lubed, and often times I've found that TL boolits function a lot better when water-dropped.

Likewise, understanding how the microgrooves work in relation to the lube is important.

Price-wise, tumble-lube molds and LLA are positioned as an entry point into the world of casting boolits. However, it is my opinion that skill and experience-wise, they are not entry points.

My two cents. :)

:coffee:

[sqlbullet]

If the accuracy doesn't degrade with subsequent groups, you are not getting leading as it is generally qualified around here. Leading always degrades accuracy.

Your OP doesn't really address this, but seems to me to read that the bullets are plenty accurate, you just didn't see what you expected in the bore after your shooting session.

Can you clarify?

[Gohon]

+1 on the #10 post by Recluse. I've been reloading for many years now but have only been casting my own for about 5 years and I've never used anything but LLA. I've never used any of the tumble lube bullets, just the standard moulds and all my shooting is from rifles except for a 45 ACP. I push these loads pretty hard sometimes. Up to 1900 fps for the 357 mag, 1700 fps for the 45 Colt, 2000 fps fps for a 30-30, 2200 fps in the 22 Hornet and as much as 2400 fps in the 223. Most are shot with gas checks but some are not. Most are sized but some are shot as dropped from the mould. Leading of the barrel is simply a non issue. Occasionally I might see a speck or two on a patch but other wise I get no leading.

The controlling factor is bullet fit, plain and simple. Sure the LLA is a little messy to apply and I do cut it with about 30% JPW but hot water and a little soap always washes it off. I also don't use LLA before sizing. Instead I just put the casts in a cup, spray in some one shot case lube and tumbler them around. Works great and no gumming up the sizer die. The stuff is cheap, easy to use and it works. Guess I'll just continue to be a entry level caster if that is what some want to call it.

[DevilDog83]

I had similar problems, I started using Lee's 150 lrn mold for .38 (.358") and size them to .357 for the 9MM and they work much better with minimal leading using range lead as my alloy

[AriM]

I have had no trouble what so ever with LLA. Or let me clarify, I have found no method of lubing boolits to be superior, or inferior to any other. It seems as long as you do the process correctly, it all equals the same result. I don't use LLA, simply because of the "cure time", but it has worked well when I have used it.

As far as hardening the boolit. There is actually detrimental effects to overly hard boolits. The hardness should match the chamber pressure, so the projectile can properly obturate and create a gas seal. The only advantage to traditional lube boolits, is that the lube band slightly collapses under pressure and mooshes the lube out (which creates a liquid bearing and gas seal).

I am hardly a "qualified expert" on the subject. I have tried lots of different lube methods though. Also have tried dozens of different commercial cast offerings. I have yet to encounter one single design that does not leave SOME kind of fouling. If the gun shoots well, why worry about it? Also it is possible that the fouling isn't lead at all. Could be antimonial wash (someone here recently schooled about that).

[O.S.O.K.]

Yeah, its not the lube IMHO. Its the fit/alloy. I'm getting leading too with some 44 Special loads and 10mm loads (Glock with Storm Lake barrel). The leading is at the breach end -which indicates gas cutting...

[mpmarty]

I've got a Lyman 45 as well as a Star with BAC and the easiest, cleanest and most effective lube to me is my 50/50 LLA/JPW mixture. In 308, 7.5X55 and 45/70 my accuracy is good and I get no leading with the 50/50 mixture. The Star is the messiest *** I've ever had the misfortune to work with. Boolits would come out better dropped in a pail of lube and dumped out on the dirt.

[Shooter6br]

i use JP and LLA 50/50 No problems but i dont shoot over 1850fps

[fredj338]

The 9mm is one of the tougher ones to get right w/ lead bullets. Depending on where the leading is, that will tell you what is likely going wrong. Lead early, bullet too small &/or too hard, tryu air cooling. Leading at the muzzle, the Alox is not doing it's job.

[leftiye]

If you can shoot lee mule snot accurately without leading - okay. But let's not fergit that there ARE better lubes (gobs and oodles of them). 9mms and 45s at 1000 fps or less can actually be fired WITHOUT LUBE from many guns. I have absolutely NO leading in my 9mm at those velocities with Lee 125 RNs (miniscule grease grooves) - and Lar's C-Red. Nor in my 9X23 at 1280 fps. Nor in my .327 at 1300 fps with a 120 grain boolit. Nor in my .44 mag. at 1300 fps with a 300 grain RNFP. Nor in my .454 at 1300 fps with 300 grain RNFP also (mild load for a .454). But I also size my boolits (and also heat treat them when it seems to help).

[jbrown]

I've seen leading in 40S&W with a similar configuration. What I found was that the walls of my barrel weren't perfectly perpendicular - on one gun, it opened up just a smidge (maybe .001) for about half an inch in the first inch of barrel then pinched back to .400. Another gun did the opposite, with a small opening up half an inch before the end if the barrel.

Shooting air cooled WW, no leading. Shooting water dropped WW? A little leading at each of those spots but no where else. Excellent accuracy for both.

I think the harder alloy didn't 'bump up' to fill the void and there was gas cutting at the base of the bullet at those spots.

My AC WW tested out to 14 BHN, and WD WW to 29.5 BHN. 175GR Lee TL Truncated Cone (180 gr as cast), sized to .402, over 4.6 grains of universal with remington primers. Used lee liquid alox on both.

[fredj338]

9mms and 45s at 1000 fps or less can actually be fired WITHOUT LUBE from many
Like to see yo utru that. let me know what your accuracy is like after say 8rds of unlubed bullets. I'm betting you'll have a pretty good amount of leading deposited in the bore by then.

[cricco]

If the accuracy doesn't degrade with subsequent groups, you are not getting leading as it is generally qualified around here. Leading always degrades accuracy.

Your OP doesn't really address this, but seems to me to read that the bullets are plenty accurate, you just didn't see what you expected in the bore after your shooting session.

Can you clarify?

This is correct. My accuracy is fine, but I can see visible lead buildup in the bore.

[Recluse]

Like to see yo utru that. let me know what your accuracy is like after say 8rds of unlubed bullets. I'm betting you'll have a pretty good amount of leading deposited in the bore by then.

You beat me to it.

I loaded and fired some 148WC boolits, un-lubed, just to see what would happen. Standard 2.7 grains of Bullseye. Fired them through a four-inch 586 and an eight-inch 686.

Spent the rest of the afternoon scrubbing bores.

:coffee: