Bee's Wax, White, Yellow and Dark: Performance

[Hip's Ax]

I've read that white BW is processed and bleached, Yellow I guess is "normal" and the dark BW is from older combs. Is there any difference in performance with respect to using it in a bullet lube? Is one better than the other?

[Lloyd Smale]

shouldnt matter a bit the wax is just a carrier for the lube and isnt a lube itself.

[StarMetal]

Here's what bees was is:

Myricyl Palmitate 23%
Myricyl Cerotate 12
Myricyl Hypogaete 12
Ceryl Hydroxypalmitate 8-9
Free Cerotic Acid 4
Other Free Acids 8
Hydrocarbons 10.5 - 13.5


Make your own opinions as to why it's used in making BP lubes and whether it's a lubricate on it's own or not.

Joe

[Catshooter]

Yea StarMetal, I can sure form opinions as to whether bee's wax is a lubricant from that list of chemicals.


To try to answer the mans question, from the way it feels in between my fingers I'd say it does play a part in lubrication. Don't you wax the bottoms of drawers to lube 'em?


Cat

[StarMetal]

Well the chemicals were placed because I think they give an idea, at least for me, why beeswax is part of alot of BP lube formulas.

We were taught at the oil refinery that waxes can be very good lubricant, but do to their hardness when cold, they aren't ideal.

Joe

[357maximum]

I have used some free ugly beeswax that ranged anywhere from brown to almost green, I melted it and filtered it through worn out t-shirt material. It was ugly stuff and some of it even had form wire in it. But after filtering it was clean, still ugly, but clean. It worked just as good as the purdy yellow stuff, plus it was free. A little liquid candle dye and no one would know...

Yes, beeswax is a lubricant (in my eyes), but as already scientifffficccallly pointed out it is brittle, that is why all recipes have an oil of some sort.

[Dale53]

The original work done by E.H. Harrison of the NRA that resulted in the NRA Formula 50/50 Beeswax and Alox 2138F bullet lube specifically stated that "Pure natural beeswax" be used. They rejected bleached bees wax. The dirty stuff is just straight from the hives and DOES need to be filtered ( I have around 150 lbs) of the dirty stuff sitting in my utility barn awaiting filtering. It is full of all kinds of bee parts and dirt of all types.

I will melt it in a monster double boiler and filter it through several thicknesses of cheese cloth. It will then be "Pure Natural Beeswax" as there will have been NO chemical alteration.

FWIW
Dale53

[trooperdan]

I haven't tried this and doubless you all may already know about this but it made sense to me when I heard it so I'll share.

There are a couple of ways to clean beeswax; put the pieces in a coarse cloth bag such as burlap, put in a container of water and heat it up. The wax will melt, escape from the bag and solidify upon the water upon cooling.

A variation is just heat the wax with water, melt and cool. The trash will sink through the wax and settle into the water or just beneath the wax upon cooling and hardning.

[alamogunr]

I haven't tried this and doubless you all may already know about this but it made sense to me when I heard it so I'll share.

There are a couple of ways to clean beeswax; put the pieces in a coarse cloth bag such as burlap, put in a container of water and heat it up. The wax will melt, escape from the bag and solidify upon the water upon cooling.

A variation is just heat the wax with water, melt and cool. The trash will sink through the wax and settle into the water or just beneath the wax upon cooling and hardning.

I've used the second method and it works pretty well. I usually melted the wax in the evening and let it set overnite. If your container has straight sides, it can be challenging to get the cooled wax out. Once out, just scrape all the crud off the bottom of the plug of wax. Not much of the crud stays in the water that I could tell.
I did notice when I remelted in a double boiler to pour into small loaf pans that there was some dirt(almost negligible) in the bottom of the pan after I poured off the melted wax.

[targetshootr]

I just bought a lb of bleached to mix with some soft sticks that were too messy. Sounds like it needs to be swapped for natural but did they give a reason for rejecting bleached?

[Dale53]

Apparently, the chemical changes that occur through bleaching were considered detrimental. Pure Natural should be less expensive, also (just like free ranging chickens should be less expensive - NOT!:( ).

Dale53

[Hip's Ax]

Amazing, Thanks for the replies. How some soft silver metal and a little wax and oil could draw such a diverse, intellegent and resourceful group of people together just escapes me. :lovebooli

[Bad Flynch]

Years ago, in its landmark research on cast bullet shooting, the NRA found that white (bleached) beeswax, when used as bullet lube, was not as good as yellow (unbleached) beeswax.

However, that might only apply to the conditions of their research; one never knows until it is tried under different conditions and the results carefully recorded and reported. It may be that the results only apply to beeswax mixed with Alox 2138F and not to other mixes. It may apply universally, and unless tested and carefully compared under like conditions, we may never know.

It is difficult for me to imagine that the darker and less pure forms would be inferior.

[Bullshop]

I talked to a bee man about this when I went to buy wax. They sold white refined and yellow pure. He told me the big difference is that the white which they sold for pharmisuiticles has had the natural glue removed. He had a name for the glue but I cant remember it. I use only the yellow pure because I like the way it stays where you want it. I have dug boolits out of dirt piles and logs and they still have lube in the grooves. I dont like the idea of lube being flung off in flight changing the ballance of the bullet even if it only happens in my mind. I think it may also have the effect of mantaining a more consistant bore condition. Maybe all just in my head but thems the reasons I use only the unrefined yellow wax in all my lubes.
BIC/BS

[StarMetal]

Dan,

The weight of the lube flying off a bullet in relation to the bullet mass would be like if you put strip of duck tape on a car tire say about 2-3 inches long. Do you think that would affect the balance of the tire? I don't. I doubt lube flying off a bullet is going to affect it noticeably. The say shooting while it's raining doesn't affect a bullet much. Why would lube flying off? Just my opinion. Yes I would rather it all stay one because that's were I put it.

Joe

[Bullshop]

Hi Joe
Haven't heard from you in a while. Hope all is well! OK remember I said even if its just in my mind. Ya know how sometimes little things just bug ya but they dont make any real difference. Kinda like my spelling and puncuation how it just bugs some folks so they think I should use some computer speller for ta correct me but it realy dont make any difference cause it dont change what I have to say.
So there ya go the thought of it slinging off just bugs me in the same kinda way so I want to keep the glue in my wax even if it dont make any difference. Anyway refined just dont sound good to me. Like refined white flour they take all the good stuff out. Why bother good ol whole wheet bread is best just the way God made it. Same goes for bee wax he already made it perfect so why change it.
Just my thoughts so dont nobody get yer feathers ruffled.
BIC/BS

[alamogunr]

After posting above, I got curious about the surplus beeswax I bought from the gentleman in Nevada. I hadn't opened the box since I had about 25-30 lbs from other sources. The surplus wax is somewhat light yellow where the other I have is darker brown and smells good. Is the surplus wax bleached? I iknow others on this forum bought that wax as well. What is your experience? Is it ok to use?
John

[felix]

If the wax mixes well and does not allow other additives to drip out, then the wax is good to go. The color is an indicator mostly, for our purposes anyway, of what the bees have been eating to make up the wax in the first place. Just clean the wax of debris as the best you can and then make the lube with it. ... felix

[Dale53]

My first foray into lube making required me to locate a beeswax source. It lead me to an old "honey handler" (bee keeper) who was so enthusiastic about his hobby that he was willing to talk to me for hours. I learned a great deal about bees and their wonderful wax and honey. As Felix states, the color of the beeswax (and honey) will vary from a very light color when they are feeding on clover to a deep dark reddish brown when they are feeding on other blossoms. The flavor also goes from a light elegant taste to a stronger more robust flavor of the darker honey (I don't eat the beeswax[smilie=1:).

The supply of wax that I have is nearly black it is so dark. After I clean and filter it, it will be considerably lighter but still quite dark. It came from hives in Colorado.

All the best,
Dale

[floodgate]

Guys:

The "natural glue" Bullshop's contact mentioned is called "propolis"; it was used in making up specialty varnishes, and I read somewhere that it is thought to be the "secret" ingredient that made the Stradivarius violins sound so special.

floodgate

[StarMetal]

Dan,

I hear ya pardner. I'd rather it stay on the bullet too.

I bought some beeswax from a honey farm here in TN and I also got some from the fellow in Nevada. They are both the same color, light yelllow, but the one from TN smells different, smells like when you spit on a red hot iron, you men know what I'm talking about. The Nevada stuff doesn't have much of an odor. Now I did make some lube, 50/50 beeswax/alox. The alox come from from a fellow on the forum here and he lives in TN also. The stuff smells just like Javenlina and I just started using it.

Joe

[Bullshop]

Guys:

The "natural glue" Bullshop's contact mentioned is called "propolis"; it was used in making up specialty varnishes, and I read somewhere that it is thought to be the "secret" ingredient that made the Stradivarius violins sound so special.

floodgate
floodgate
There ya go propolis thats it! Makes sweet sweet music on my boolits too!
BIC/BS

[StarMetal]

Dan,

Kinda like Apropolis Now :Fire::Fire:

Joe

[targetshootr]

Today I mixed natural beeswax 50-50 with the soft lube sticks that were too messy and it worked pretty well. I nuked it in the microwave along with some candle dye and poured it back into the cardboard tubes it came in and let it cool. It's not as hard as Magma lube but it's not all over eveything it touches anymore.

But even though it came out uniform in color it leaves streaks when it goes on boolits. Not a problemo, just odd.

[fivegunner]

I like reading about making bullet lubes, I was a Beekeeper for 15 years got up to about 100 hives,I did some pollination (very hard work) did it just for fun (I thought I was going to get rich) it`s a lot of work and you get stung alot. my first year I got 1100 LBs of honey. when the bee`s make wax it is pure white ,they reuse the combs over and over for honey and brood (young bees) Now Propolis is what the bees use to glue every thing togather in the hive they get it from trees, it is mostly tree sap, its very hard . combs gets darker every year. brood combs get the darkest . when you boil water with bees wax in it a lot of the dirt and pollen come out and then when it cools most of the junk go`s to the bottom of the tank or pot. and you have cleaner wax on top of the water . some beekeepers put Hydrogen Peroxide to bleach out the wax (works very well) the pale yellow wax is from the cappings, the top part of the wax that you cut off with a (hot knife) from a frame of honey. this wax is the most wanted and the best money maker. the darker wax comes from the brood combs. theres a lot more about this than I can write here, I am thinking about geting some alox and making a batch of 50/50 as I have about 25 lbs of bees wax left.:Fire: anybody know where to buy some? thanks for puting up with me. Frank

[Hip's Ax]

I bought a quart of Alox 350 from Lar45 but he's under the weather right now and he's behind on shipping.

[lar45]

Hi all, I'm still kicking along here. A bit slower than normal, but still moveing.
I have around 25-30 gallons of Alox 350 That I'd be more than happy to share. Home depot has some clean new paint style cans in 1 quart and 1 gallon. I've filled several of the quart cans and sent out. I can fit around 1.9-2# of Alox in the quart can and sell for $9.32 + shipping. If anyone wants some you can email me at idahobronco@aol.com . I may need a couple of reminders though.
I read somewhere that the old Alox 2138F had more wax in it then today's Alox 350. A 50-50 mix seems to be softer than Javalina, so I add abit more beeswax until the consistency is right.
I've mixed and shot up to 4:1 wax: Alox, and it seemed to shoot about the same as 50-50.

I bought the last 2000# of surplus beeswax from Bob in Nevada. When I peeled the top layers off, then the inside was a very light color, almost a neon yellow. If it sits out in the sun it will turn darker from oxidation.
I am useing this wax in my lubes and they seem to be shooting pretty good. So mix it and use it.

http://www.texasdrone.com/ When I run out of Bob's wax, I'll be buying my beeswax here. It looks like about the best price I've seen on quality wax.

There was a thread somewhere here about the 2000 lbs of beeswax on ebay. I talked with the guy selling it. He said that they couldn't use it as it has some parraffin in it. I tried to find out, but he either didn't know or wasn't saying. He sent me a sample slab. It is much harder than Bob's surplus wax. It is still pliable at room temp, but very stiff and not as tacky as the Bob wax. The surplus Bob wax is fairly soft at room temp. If I get some time, I'll probably mix a small batch of 50-50 and shoot it next to my 50-50 with Bob's wax.

If bleaching removes the natural glue in the wax, then I would think that would be detrimental to the lube. I like mine to be sticky and stay on the bullet.

I think that Dan at mountianmolds had a good thought on lube needing to seal the bore to not allow blowby which might cut the bullet or leave lead residue in the bore.
If the beeswax is left with the natural glue in it, then the lube should be tougher and stay together helping to create the seal in the bore.

That's why I don't like parraffin in lubes, it's not pliable and doesn't want to stick together very well.

Sorry about the book, looks like I'm starting to ramble on here.

take care.
Glenn.

again, e-mail if you want some Alox 350 to play with.

[Springfield]

I bought 50 pounds from the guy in Nevada and I have been using it in the Big Lube(tm) bullets I sell on e-bay. Seems to work the same as the pure beeswax I was using before. Should have bought 100 pounds of it. Feels and works like regular beeswax, just a different smell.

[buck1]

Heres a tip I got from a bee keeper.
Buy those cheepo womens knee high stockings at wall mart. 2 for a quarter or something .
Put chunks of dirty bees wax inside them and tie them off in a knot. Then drop them in to hot NEAR but not boiling water. let the wax melt, remove the stockings and let cool. It worked good too. ....Buck