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Bigjohn
07-02-2006, 03:16 AM
G'day to the members and visitors to the board,

Another member 'Paratus', put the "Cat in amongst the pigeons" when he revealed to those who read his thread that he has and shoots a Martini .310 Cadet Rifle. I as result of enquiries for the information I offered to members, I believe it will be easier to submit information in the form of a thread and conduct some tests with the cartridge and rifle combination while posting the results for all to see. I can chrono loads, benchrest out to 90 meteres at the club for accuracy comparison, try different lubes from within an initially small choice of brands, mainly LEE Liquid Alox and 50/50 Alox Beeswax (others if time permits).

I have some experience and information for reloading this cartridge and a rifle which needs to be exercised. The cartridge itself is barely big enough to be considered a Rifle cartridge but makes a good childs training rifle, adults plinking rifle or suitable for small game at less than 100 yds. I do not hold out at this time much hope of good accuracy with my rifles barrel. While the rifling is sharp looking, the bore at one time was not cleaned properly (before my time with the rifle) and is dark. On the previous ocassions I shot this rifle, I did manage to hit the target with reasonable accuracy. I do have two original second hand, good clean cast boolit barrels on their way and they should be available before the end of the test cycle.

1767

The cartridge itself is a straight tapered case approximately 1.075" long which work best IMO with a Heel Type Boolit weighing approximately 120 grains.

1768

The above photo shows (left to right) SUPER Brand .310 cases, Bertram Bullet Co. .310 Cases and Super Brand swaged lead projectiles (non heel type) which will be used as the comparison standard in these tests.

1770

These bullet molds (left to right) H. T. BUGG Mold and C. B. E. Mold will be used to cast the projectiles for these tests. I intend to use Wheel weight material and all projectiles will be dip lubed post loading.

1769

I have and will use a locally produced dieset for loading this calibre. The set has been used in the past and gave good results.

1771

The rear sight on my rifle and most others available is an excellent unit adjustable for both elevation and windage.

The powders suggested in the Aussie reloading manuals are 2400, IMR 4227, REDDOT and UNIQUE. The powder charges are all small, almost pistol cartridge loads and those underlined are the powders I have available, right now.

Powder Charges for .310" Cadet.
Powder......Starting Load.....mv.............MAX. Load........mv
2400.............7.....................1220....... .....8...................1320
IMR 4227......9.....................1320..........11.. .................1500
Red Dot.....3.5.....................1170............5. ..................1530
Unique.........4.....................1200......... .......nil..

A Aussie writer tried a charge of 16 3fg GOEX powder for an article in a locally published shooting magazine. If time permits I will try these loads.

I will finish for now and update as I progress through the reloading/shooting cycle.

Until then, cheers :drinks:

John.

trooperdan
07-02-2006, 09:08 AM
Great start to your project John! I am eager to see the rest. How much is the Simplex .310 die set?

Are replacement cadet barrels widely available? Too bad recent changes in our import laws (I think) now restrict barrels. I need a few small parts for mine, sling swivels and butt plate screws on a couple.

Is there any truth to the story that cleaning rods used to be issued with these rifles but the cadets were using blanks to shoot them at each oterh so the rods were withdrawn? And was a bayonet ever issued for the .310? I've seen pictures of a full patch round loaded during WWII as part of the preparation against a Japanese invasion, or so I heard.

PAT303
07-02-2006, 07:34 PM
Big John you might want to also try win 296,my cadet would not group at all so I tried some out of curiosity and at 10 grains all the boolits went thru the same hole.I used C.B.E's mold with a card wad over the powder. You might want to check out the scores at the national shoots, some of them are jaw dropping!!!. Pat

Bigjohn
07-02-2006, 08:12 PM
Trooperdan;
Simplex, the company (I believe) went 'belly up' some years ago. I also believe someone in New South Wales is still producing their die sets. They also made a 5/8" set which I believe may have worked in the 310 tools. I will do further checking of sources here to find out what is available.

Since recent changes to the firearms laws in this country, many people who had these rifles just sitting in the cupboard are now selling them cheaply to gundealers. The good ones are placed up for sale and the poor ones are being taken down for parts.

If you have a list of parts needed I could look out for them and let you know. I have a small quanity here including the parts mentioned.

The 310 never had a cleaning rod but the predecessor 297/230 did (There is one in a local shop minus cleaning rod). There were no bayonets issued for the 310 to my knowledge. Nowhere to hang them on the rifles I have seen. 'J' ammunition was produced and issued, which I believe lead to the demise of a large number of the original calibre, corrosive.

PAT303;
I do not doudt that the 310" will shoot given good care and cleaning, good fodder and a steady hand with good eye.
The present barrel on mine was not cared for as it should have been and I would have if I received it before the damage was done, BUT I have not written it off yet! I will see what it can do with the loads produced and then compare it against a cleaner barrel when I get them.

I have some Win 296 in the cupboard so I will include your load in the test run.


LATE BREAKING NEWS
Apparently, some years ago, LAWERENCE ORDNANCE sold some brand new barrels for the cadet rifles, still in the grease. Well, I have just now received one, and hope to fit it to an action for testing.
I will take some photo's today and post them later, also planning on the casting session today to stock up the boolits needed for the tests.

:drinks: cheers for now,

John

mech481
07-02-2006, 10:29 PM
There was actually a bayonet for the cadet rifle it was a small spike bayonet that
locked on behind the front sight I believe, they are about as rare as hens teeth but one sold in the last Melbourne Gun auction.
Big John try 4grs of AP50 behind your CBE projectile as that is the load I use and it shoots 1" at 50Mtrs also 5 grs AP70 is a good load and AP100 should be good with a little better load density than the AP50 so may be worth the effort

JeffinNZ
07-03-2006, 12:07 AM
BIGJOHN: Are you planning to run some BP down that tube?
Doesn't Jim make the dinkiest little moulds!? They are great. :drinks:

PAT303
07-03-2006, 05:25 AM
It's funny how in this day of wsm's wssm's hyper velocity killim' at a mile guns that a little thing like a cadet can get so much interest. I feel sorry for balistic only shooters,there missing out on all the fun. Pat

Bad Ass Wallace
07-03-2006, 07:27 AM
I've load for the 310 for many years and settled on the CBE 120gn .317 bullet which is not a healed base type.

I load 4.5gn AP70 which gives just over 1000fps.

There is another "variation" of the 310 that seldom gets mention, many rifles had the chamber reamed and extractor cut deepened to accept the standard 32/20 Winchester. I've found that so altered you have a case that is parallel sided and about 3mm longer than the .310.

This round can be loaded with 310 dies and fired with 5.5gn AP70 for 1200fps. Apart from the headstamp, folks get excited when I tell them it is a 310 Magnum:roll:

Bigjohn
07-03-2006, 09:31 PM
Well, the results are in on part one. Yesterdays casting session required the breaking in of two new molds (well they did sit on the shelf for several years before yesterday [smilie=1: ) and then down to some serious casting. Once I had the cadance sorted out, juggling two molds at once became easy and set up a good production rate.

The only drawback was the 10 pound capacity of the LEE pot (need a BIGGER one), so I can now introduce some of the stars of this thread.

1778

Now for the individual details;

1777

The CBE 113.6 grain Heel type Boolit; OAL is 0.60", Shank diameter is .308" and the Groove diameter is .320" as cast from wheel weights.

1776

The BUGG 135.8 grain Heel type Boolit; OAL is 0.706", Shank diameter is .309" and the Groove diameter is .316" as cast from wheel weights.

Due to the lateness of the day when I commenced casting, I will cast some more today to build up a reasonable supply for the loading tests. (As the number of members personal load data being posted is enlarging the testing regime somewhat.)

I mentioned yesterday that I had just received what appears to be a brand new unused original barrel from a friend who bought one some years ago when they were being sold for about $25.00 AUD through Lawerence Ordnance. I cleaned the grease and paper from the outside but left the grease in the barrel. It has a few marks on the outside but no rust and the grease is packed into the bore.

1779

I took several photo's this morning but this is the only one which was in focus. I will redo the others later. (Rear sight and Muzzle.)

Well, :drinks: cheers for now,

John.

Bigjohn
07-03-2006, 10:45 PM
mech481; I was not aware of these bayonets and this is the first I have heard of them. It would have to be simular to a socket bayonet and lock in around the fore sight.
I have noted your load with AP50; the original purpose of this thread is to help our friends across the waters to load and shoot the ex-pat. rifle they have hence the American powders mentioned. I know ADI sell their powders under different labels over there but I am not aware as to what names they bear.

JeffinNZ; If times permits I will run some BP loads. I may need to change barrels for best results.
Yes, Jim does make some good molds; I have several and they work well for me.

PAT303; Ssssh!; we do not want them finding out about the fun they are missing out on. This could create a demand for the lower velocity rifles. [smilie=1:
Besides I don't think you can get cast boolits to hold together at those velocities.

BAW; I have heard that some rifles would take a 32/20 cartridge with out modification. I have tried several but never been luckly I guess.
Besides; do I detect a hint of a simular sense of humour [smilie=1: ,I ahve been known to slip a BP load into a Marlin 45/70 with some lite loads just to see the look on their faces [smilie=1: 310 magnum indeed; but hey it is amazing what some folk will believe if you tell'em.

1780

1781

1782

1783

I close with the photo's of the new barrel and the original workhorse.

:drinks: cheers for now,
John.

gregg
07-04-2006, 08:18 AM
Keep it comeing . Looks like fun to me.

Jumptrap
07-04-2006, 10:32 AM
Allow me to toss a few Stateside morsels into the pot.

I have a mate in NSW and somehow..hehe...a couple Cadets managed to swim over. They actually swim quite well due to the fact they morph into motorcycle parts.

Anyway, I began playing with the 310 and like most everybody here, tried to do so using 32-20 components.......which resulted in poor results. First the bore has 5 lands and grooves and is damned near impossible to get an accurate measurement of the internal diameter unless the slug is measured in a V block. I found an old gentleman who did this.....his name is O. H. McKeegan as I recall (he has since quit). My bore measured .3178. Therefore, I think the Bugg mold mentioned above is worthless unless your bore is tighter than mine.

Bullet molds available here are useless. They were either undersized and none were heeled...RCBS does offer one...if you can find one. Finally, I gave up 32-20 dies and a set of excellent Simplex dies swam over and I ordered one of Jim's 130 grain heeled bullet molds.....a super product. My rifle will accept the thicker 32-20 rim...many won't. So, I trim 32-20 brass and use it. My preferred powder is 2400. While the Cadet action is hell for stout, it has almost NO extraction force. if the load gets warm, the case will stick. I started with 8 grs. of 2400 and worked up. cases would begin sticking at 12 grains. So, i backed off to 10 grains and called it good. Velocity is decent.....don't recall exactly what from memory..made no difference anyway. it shoots well, cases pop right out and accuracy is excellent. i shoot the bullets as cast at .320.

My suggestion is to buy a CBE mold and proper dies and forget jacking around with makeshift dies and molds if you expect happy results. The .310 is an excellent cartridge and somebody did their homework well when they designed it long ago. Just too bad martini failed in designing a better extraction system.

floodgate
07-04-2006, 01:36 PM
Jump:

"First the bore has 5 lands and grooves and is damned near impossible to get an accurate measurement of the internal diameter unless the slug is measured in a V block. I found an old gentleman who did this.....his name is O. H. McKeegan as I recall (he has since quit). My bore measured .3178. Therefore, I think the Bugg mold mentioned above is worthless unless your bore is tighter than mine."

His name is O. H. McKagen, and he DOES still mike odd-numbered slugs for the price of return postage. I've got his address somewhere, but can't find it just now. A query through the American Single Shot Rifle Association's website will turn up his address, though, and I think he has posted his offer in "The Fouling Shot" recently.

NEI used to list a proper mould for the .310 Cadet; has anyone here tried one?

floodgate

Jumptrap
07-04-2006, 03:53 PM
Jump:

"First the bore has 5 lands and grooves and is damned near impossible to get an accurate measurement of the internal diameter unless the slug is measured in a V block. I found an old gentleman who did this.....his name is O. H. McKeegan as I recall (he has since quit). My bore measured .3178. Therefore, I think the Bugg mold mentioned above is worthless unless your bore is tighter than mine."

His name is O. H. McKagen, and he DOES still mike odd-numbered slugs for the price of return postage. I've got his address somewhere, but can't find it just now. A query through the American Single Shot Rifle Association's website will turn up his address, though, and I think he has posted his offer in "The Fouling Shot" recently.

NEI used to list a proper mould for the .310 Cadet; has anyone here tried one?

floodgate

Floodgate, the reason I ASSUMED he has quit was due to some correspondence I had with Mr. McKagen. I asked him what was required to make the measurements and if he would teach me how, in order that the procedure wouldn't be lost to the fraternity. He told me he had given his measuring (V) blocks to somebody due to the fact he was moving to a retirement home and just didn't have room for them. This was shortly after he had measured my Cadet slug. I must now assume that he didn't give his stuff away and for that, I am glad to know. He is well into his 80's and a super fine gentleman.

dromia
07-04-2006, 04:31 PM
Now we are talking classic rifles and ammunition here. The .310" cadet is up there with all the great and magical "rook rifle" calibres.

Currently I'm shooting an early Westley Richards Francote action Cadet sent to NSW prior to confederation.

My best load to date is 10 gns of Viht N110 under the RCBS heeled bullet 120gns as cast tumble lubed in Lee liquid Alox in Buffalo arms cases, reworked 32-20.

I have also tried the Alliant powders Red dot, Unique and 2400, they all worked but the Vhitavuori was the clear winner. Haven't chronoed them yet.

The cases are fire formed and then not resized at all, the bullet is hand seated into the case, all I do is de and reprime.

5 shots will all touch at 50 yrds.

They shoot them at 200yrds at Bisley and if the wind is kind they will score with the best of them on the Tin Hat target.

My Westley Richards groups well as described but shoots to the right, it has the older ladder sight which is not windage adjustable so no good for the competitions, Ho Hum!

Need to get one of my BSAs out and make time to get it shooting.

Good luck with yours Big John and enjoy the journey.

Must get a CBE mould they do look nice, I have a set of CH-4D dies for the 310 cadet, nice dies, but never use them now.

Bigjohn
07-05-2006, 04:22 AM
G'day again;

When I started this thread, I believed that it would draw a few of the closet 310 Cadet owners out into the light; and it has.

The casting sessions went well and I now have a good supply of both projectiles, two more good cast boolit shooting barrels are on the way, pick up next week, (they still have their receivers attached and under Australin laws, I would have to by them each as a rifle if I picked them up as is).

As I spent most of today in town shopping prior to starting night shift (damn), not much else was done. Cases needed a session in the tumbler so that's what is happening right now.

While arranging to have the receivers removed from the barrels, another 310 shooter and I started discussing the project. He informed me that some dies are designed around the inside lubricated bullet not the heel type and as a result resize the projectile while crimping the case.
As I only have access to SIMPLEX DIES; I will watch for this and report. If he is correct it would appear that the modern equipment caters for the modern type of boolit only.

This would lead to a lot of people being very disappointed in the performance of their 310's and considering changing their calibre. This is one of the reasons behind my rifle sitting in the cupboard for some years until now.
An experiment I tried back then with a .32 cal. (.314") SWC GC projectile seated in the case, grossly extended the neck area. The result looked like a goblet (had a smaller diameter immediately behing the end of the seated projectile.

These loads were dismal in their performance and caused several cases to split on firing.

I will be quiet for about a week until I finish night shift then report back with further information.

:drinks: cheers for now,

John.

Bigjohn
07-05-2006, 09:53 PM
G'day again Casters,

I have been doing some research for to answer some enquiries raised here and via emails.

The die set I am using is an Australian made set by SIMPLEX. They are still available and cost $100.00 AUD; shellholder $14.00AUD.
JANSA Arms is handling these sets and can be contacted;

http://www.jansa.com.au

They informed me that they also sell BERTRAM Brass for the .310" Cadet and that die sets are in stock.

Jim Allison at Cast Bullet Engineering is currently producing molds suitable for these cartridges.

http://www.castbulletengineering.bigpondhosting.com/default.htm

Anyone wishing to follow up with these people can do so at their leisure.
As I start night shift tonight and working 12 and one half hour shift I will not be able to do anymore with this thread until the 14th. of this month.

:drinks: cheers until then,

John.

mech481
07-06-2006, 07:31 PM
A good supplier for bertram Brass is also Sunraysia Shooters Supplies cheaper than most of the other middlemen ( p&akeogh@ncable.com.au ) this is his e-mail address I know pat has been sending brass to the UK at very competitive prices.

Bigjohn
07-15-2006, 12:42 AM
G'day again everybody;
Well, I'm back on deck after the night shift, I managed some research when I had a quiet moment.

One piece of information I need to post now is a caution on the case length; in the 'Handloader' January/February 1989 #137, commencing on page 32 is an article by Ben Johnson - Resurrecting a Martini Cadet. On page 34. mention is made of the length of case.
George C. Nonte Jr. in the book Cartridge Conversions mentions the length I used in the first posting of this thread (1.075"); a KYNOCH sample case measured by Johnson (1.02"); a sample case he had produce measured (1.105") and the dimension drawing on the page mentions (1.120").

This would be enough to make some of the diligent reloaders amongst us start pulling their hair out.
I have some unused SUPER brand cases which average (1.095") and some BERTRAM cases which average (1.105").

From past experience; I have noticed variations in case length with factory produced ammunition for these rifles and only one which failed to chamber in the rifle. That casing was found to be 1/8" longer than all others in that batch; it would not chamber as a load round but did once the projectile had been removed.

It would from this observation appear that these rifles can be very forgiving of variations with the ammunition but one would need to ensure that their loads will chamber before loading many rounds and then getting to the range to find they will not.

I will post more details as the reloading proceeds.

:drinks: cheers for now.

John.

grumpy one
07-15-2006, 01:02 AM
The main issue is that you might load something to suit one rifle and find it is a bit over-length for another rifle, resulting in some very high pressures being developed even though the round will chamber. My 30-30 multigroove does not have a conventional throat - instead the neck-clearance section of the chamber continues right up to the beginning of a very short lede of only .057". Maximum case length that will chamber, loaded or unloaded, is 2.178" compared with a SAAMI case length of 2.040". When I first discovered this I thought I'd let my cases grow without trimming them, but then I got to thinking about the possibility that I might die one day (well, it happens) and some poor fool might buy a few hundred loaded 30-30s from my heirs and successors, chamber them in a SAAMI-length chamber, and blow his head off. It would be my fault if that happened. So, I made a gauge to SAAMI dimensions, and I swipe each case each time I size them, trimming if necessary.

In my opinion you should worry about what the chamber length of other .310 Cadets might be, and ensure that any cartridge you load will be safe in the shortest chamber in town.

Geoff

trooperdan
07-15-2006, 01:04 AM
Buffalo Arms makes the .310, not sure what they use as a parent case as they are out of stock at the moment. The interesting item is they list two different case lenghts, 1.075 and 1.120. When I asked about the difference I was told the shorter cases was for loading the original heel type boollet and the longer case was for "inside lubricated" boolits.

I tried to order some Starline .32-20 cases from Midway USA but even those are out of stock at the moment. I've heard the Starline brand .32-20 has a rim that is closer to the orginal .310 rim.

Bigjohn
07-15-2006, 04:33 PM
Trooperdan;
That sounds to be a feasable reason for the different case lengths. Here in Australia there was a company (SUPER) which used to sell loaded ammunition for this Rifle. They used a swaged lead Projectile, (sample of this type in photo within the original post in this thread), these were not inside lubed boolits but dipped in lube after loading. They had no real lube grooves at all and relied upon what stuck to the outside of the boolit. It has been quite a while since I have seen let alone shot any of these type but I do have 200 of then here in their original box for inclusion in the trail.

Yesterday I took the Bertram Brass cases and trimmed them back to 1.080" loaded these cases with a Winchester Small Rifle Primer, 3.8 grains of Red Dot and seated 135 grain Cast from the H. T. BUGG mold. I tested these rounds in the chambers of two spare barrels I have; one a W. W. Greener and the other a BSA. The rounds were a drop fit in one barrel and a 'push home' effort in the other. As the 135 gr boolit has a longer groove diameter section it would be inclined to engaged the rifling sooner than a lighter projectile.

With different case lengths available; I would adjust the length of the case to suit the individual chamber of your barrels (There appears to be quite a bit of variation in chamber sizes also).

In closing; I would summarize the variation in case length by saying Longer cases for inside lubed projectiles and shorter cases for heel type projectiles and trim cases to suit the individual chamber.

:drinks: cheers for now,

John

curator
07-20-2006, 12:11 PM
I have 2 cadets, one original in .310 and the other reamed out for the .32-20 case. I bought the CBE 120 grain heeled bullet mould. I load 4.5 grains of Unique in either case to get 1150-1250 fps. I found that I got the best accuracy when I didn't resize the brass, just reprime, load powder, and thumb press bullets in case mouth. I am lubing the slugs with Lee's "liquid alox" which leaves them a bit sticky and helps to hold the cartridge together. I got the .32-20 cadet for free from a friend who couldn't get it to shoot (with factory .32-20 ammo) Now he wants it back since he has seen how well it shoots with the correct heeled bullet.

Jumptrap
07-20-2006, 12:54 PM
"I got the .32-20 cadet for free from a friend who couldn't get it to shoot (with factory .32-20 ammo) Now he wants it back since he has seen how well it shoots with the correct heeled bullet."

Curator,

You said it all in the above qoute. I f folks really want these rifles to shoot, they need to quit monkeying around trying to make do and get the proper mold and dies and then they will really enjoy shooting the Cadet. I love mine....but I was less than impressed until I procured a CBE mold and Simplex dies.

Boz330
07-26-2006, 05:31 PM
I have had a Cadet for just under a year and worked with several powders but Blue Dot has given me the best results so far. The bullet is the RCBS 120 and I hand seat the bullet and crimp with a cut down Lee 32-20 crimp die. So far I've gotten just over 2 minute groups at 100yd. The caveat is I have really old eyes so I'm not sure I can do any better but I keep trying. The up side is it goes bang and is truely a joy to shoot. I think that I could do better with a tang sight, but then that wouldn't be original. BTW the cadet hails from NSW.

Bob

Stuart
07-29-2006, 06:34 PM
Buffalo Arms makes the .310, not sure what they use as a parent case as they are out of stock at the moment. The interesting item is they list two different case lenghts, 1.075 and 1.120. When I asked about the difference I was told the shorter cases was for loading the original heel type boollet and the longer case was for "inside lubricated" boolits.

They use 32-20 cases. I just got mine yesterday; they had been out of stock for a few weeks. I must have a very short chamber, however. I had originally ordered the longer cases and found I had to trim them to about 1.00" in order to chamber with the bullets I have (from LTD Cast Bullets, www.customcastbullets.com/) So I ordered the shorter ones @ 1.075 but they will have to be trimmed back as well.

I'm looking forward to getting mine shooting after sitting around for a year or more. At this point I don't have dedicated .310 dies (although someone here in Canada said he had a set to sell); I'm going to try some 32-20 dies first. I have heard of modifying a Lee crimp die to handle the .310 (as I'd prefer to crimp them a little rather than rely on Alox alone) but I suspect that with the short cases this might be a problem.

:) Stuart

ps- Anyone know where I could obtain a spare extractor for a .310? I happen to have a spare barrel which I got for a possible .357 Mag. conversion and it would be good to have a separate extractor for this.

OrenT
07-31-2006, 04:20 PM
I have two Cadet rifles, the first is rather well worn and was rechambered for 32-20 which doesn't shoot worth 'spit' as the bullet is too small for the bore, the second is in near pristine condition with a bright bore. I ordered bullets and .310 brass from Buffalo Arms and was pleased with their heeled bullet and cut down 32-20 brass. I now plan to alter my own brass to fit my rifles. I did find a barrel on fleabay a couple of months back and intend to switch it out for my rechambered barrel thus returning the old girl back to original .310. Now looking for a good mold to cast my own bullets. I'm contemplating making a silicone mold using one of the Buffalo bullets. The silicone will certainly stand up to the heat of lead casting and has a shrinkage of less than .5% so the loss should be acceptable. Since the mold material is flexable it should work for a one piece mold that I can pour, cool, pop out the bullets and cut the sprues.

I hand loaded using a Lee Loader. This was done by placing the bullet inside the loader, inverting it on top of the brass, then using the seating tool and hammer to seat the bullet without pressing it through the sizer. I used an original Kynoch .310 round to gauge the height for the hand loader. The loads were done with unique powder and I ranged across the recommended load weight range. The results were very good out to 100 yds.

After spending years .22 and .303 it was a wonderful experience to pull the trigger, hear the kabang and then hear the thwack of the bullet striking the target at 100 yds. I'm addicted!

Now I want to restore my Martini Metford, dress in khaki and pith helmet, find my gun bearer and head for the velt.

Anyone know where I can get a forestock for a Martini? Mine was cut down before coming into my hands. Philistines!

Oren T

Boz330
08-01-2006, 02:14 PM
RCBS Makes a good .310 mold and everything on it is correct.
I have thumb seated Cadet bullets and it works pretty well in my rifle allthough I have a 32-20 Crimp die that I cut down to work on the Cadet case now and it works real well.

Oren, try ezboard.com britishmilitaria, There is a lot of Martini info there and you might find something on the yard sale board. There were a couple for sale in the past.

Bob

Bigjohn
08-06-2006, 11:25 PM
G'day again,

While I have been quiet on the subject under discussion here for a couple of weeks now, I have not been idle.

Several, finds have come my way in recent times and will assist the project greatly. The first is almost two complete packets of SUPER brand .310" Cadet factory loads with the cast boolit.

1932

A sample round is shown with a couple of the type of projectile loaded into this type of ammunition.

1931

Also located is a peep type rear sight for the Cadet action made by BSA, which I may fit to a rifle if the inclination strikes. But not at this time.

1929

1928

1930

1927

1926

I have spent sometime cleaning the barrel on my rifle and now believe that all copper pollution has been removed. The barrel does not look bright down the bore but it is smooth and that is IMO the important thing for these tests.

:drinks: Cheers for now;

John.

Bigjohn
08-08-2006, 05:04 AM
G'day again;

Today I managed to get out to the range and put some of the loads over the chrono.

The results are:

SUPER Factory Loads.
Loads details unknown; Projectile 120gr cup based (Swaged?) lead boolit.

Hi = 1261 fps
Lo = 1186 fps
ES = 75 fps
Av = 1225 fps
SD = 26 fps

H.T. BUGG 135gr cast W/W Lee Alox
Load 3.8grs REDDOT, Winchester Small Rifle Primer, Bertram Brass.

Hi = 1058 fps
Lo = 994 fps
ES = 64 fps
Av = 1022 fps
SD = 25 fps

H.T. BUGG 135gr cast W/W 50/50 Javelina beeswax/alox
Load 3.8grs REDDOT, Winchester Small Rifle Primer, Bertram Brass.

Hi = 1056 fps
Lo = 1030 fps
ES = 26 fps
Av = 1041 fps
SD = 9 fps

CBE 113gr cast W/W Lee Alox
Load 4.0grs REDDOT, Winchester Small Rifle Primer, Bertram Brass.

Hi = 1244 fps
Lo = 1226 fps
ES = 18 fps
Av = 1233 fps
SD = 8 fps

CBE 113gr cast W/W 50/50 Javelina beeswax/alox
Load 4.0grs REDDOT, Winchester Small Rifle Primer, Bertram Brass.

Hi = 1262 fps
Lo = 1224 fps
ES = 38 fps
Av = 1244 fps
SD = 16 fps

All of the above leave some room for improvement. I kept enough back to run some accuracy tests when the longer range is available this weekend.

No load showed any sign of leading and the grouping of the groups on the sighter target gave only minor indications of different points of impact for each load.

The after seating lubing of the projectiles needs a little refinement. A cold projectile collects too much lube when pan lubing. Prehaps warming up the projectile with a heat gun a little?

No real problems encountered with the application of LEE Liquid Alox.

More details next posting.

:drinks: cheers for now,

John.

Bad Ass Wallace
08-08-2006, 09:29 AM
Now I want to restore my Martini Metford, dress in khaki and pith helmet, find my gun bearer and head for the velt. Oren T


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/My_577_450.jpg

I will see you on the hill!:Fire:

Bigjohn
08-17-2006, 08:19 PM
G'day again fellow casters,

There has been a bit of a hold up on further testing for this cartridge/thread. We had a "Breakin" at the club recently and with me being the Club Secretary :violin: as you would imagine, I get to do all the running around to get things fixed.

Well, as it turned out I get to do most of the work as well. :(

I had all sorts of thoughts including dosing the idiots with mercarpin (I think thats how you spell it), blue dye with itching powder :twisted: whatever just to make their day as miserable as possible. :evil:

AND just to make the mix even harder, a week at work of split shifts. :violin:

I should all be back on track by the end of this week then back into the testing. I think I will have to order another mold from Jim at CBE for therapy maybe the 120gr FP?

Until then :drinks:

John

grumpy one
08-17-2006, 08:43 PM
BAW, I see you aren't making my mistake and firing that beast with your thumb wrapped around the back of the action. I did it once - it's strange how a mouthful of blood can help you remember what not to do.

Geoff

Bigjohn
01-22-2007, 05:45 AM
Well it appears as if it is time to bring this thread back to the fore again. Another member has acquired parts and assembled his .310". G'day Frank.

I have just managed to acquire a second .310" which will need re-barreling but otherwise is A OK.

It appears that our local sport shooting body, the SSAA is running a postal match shot at distances from 25 to 100 yards/metres. Several shooters in this area have expressed an interest in shooting this match. I hope to set it up at our local club soon.

:drinks:

John.

Four Fingers of Death
01-25-2007, 09:57 PM
Trooperdan;
Simplex, the company (I believe) went 'belly up' some years ago. I also believe someone in New South Wales is still producing their die sets. They also made a 5/8" set which I believe may have worked in the 310 tools. I will do further checking of sources here to find out what is available.John

John, the Marden family are still running the family business out of the same factory they moved into some15+ years ago when they outgrew their old premises. I have been dealing with them since old Bill marden operated out of his garage in Punchbowl.

They operate under the name 'Simplex Engineering.' I just bought a new Super Simplex press off them and had another refurbished for Floodgate. The reloading gear is a part of their business, but they do general engineering work in the main. Jansa Arms is their main outlet.

The SuperSimplex dies are similar, but have a different thread than the Lyman 310 tools (which is a shame, I'm a big fan of 310s).

Mick.

Frank46
01-26-2007, 04:30 AM
BigJohn, Jeeze all I did was ask a few questions about the .310 cadet martini and look what I started. Anyway I'm glad I did. Seems there are a few "closet cadet" shooters out there. I dug in my junk box and managed to find a 38 cal bullet that will be used to slug the bbl. I'm kinda like a packrat as I tend to pick up the darndest stuff. While I'm at it will try to use a depth guage to see how long the chamber is. Those "Super" bullets remind me of the "schutzenplinker" bullets sold years ago. They had no gas check nor did they have and grease grooved. And were lunricated with some black substance. Supposedly they were good for about 1400fps if my brain cells are still working (CRS). Think the name of the company was alberts or something like that. Only saw a few boxes of different calibers, 30 and a few boxes of what looked like 300gr 45 cal rifle bullets. And I would like to thank all who have responded to my initial query about these fine little rifles. I all of us knew what we do know about them we would have bought them by the barrel. About the only problem my bbl has is a few rough spots in the rifling,but hopefully JB bore paste and "bore Brite" should slick it up a bit more. I fing the rear sight keaf hard to move up and down. I have a spare one floating around here somplace, when I find it will swap it out for the spare. The front sight on my bbl has a piece of either bronze or copper inserted where the front sight pyramd should be and it looks like the rear sight has had its "V" notch opened slighty. Frank

Bigjohn
01-26-2007, 05:31 AM
Frank46,
Yep, we sure did open a can of worms when someone asks a question about these little rifles; must be something about them.

I reckon that they are worth the effort in their original calibre no matter what. I hope the information provided is of some assistance to you.

Good shootin',

John.

Frank46
01-27-2007, 05:47 AM
BigJohn, yep it has caused me to stop and think about how many of these little rifles that are out there and the folks that shoot them rather than make them into some superduper bug buster. Still cleaning the bbl. Hopefully will be done tonight then will slug it to find out what I'm dealing with. Nice to be able to work on the bbl while it is off the receiver.

Mick, you make mention of the simplex dies, by any chance do you know the thread size of these dies. Or could find out. I have a lyman nut cracker 310 loading set in 32-20 used it to load that cartridge for a lo-wall in the same caliber.
Frank

Bigjohn
01-27-2007, 06:16 AM
Frank, SIMPLEX make die sets in 7/8 X 14. In the early days they also had a die set in 5/8" and some fine thread different to the 310 tools if my information is correct.

Simplex are available through JANSA ARMS. Web address listed earlier in this thread.

We still find their 5/8" die sets in the shops second hand and in varying condition.

:drinks:

John.

floodgate
01-27-2007, 03:12 PM
Frank:

I've discussed the 5/8" dies for the smaller tool with Mick; he finds they are threaded 5/8" x 26 tpi, which is a British Standard Brass thread for pipe fittings. Taps and dies are (or used to be, when I was in that game years ago) available from the live-steam model RR suppliers. The Lyman / Ideal 5/8" x 30 tpi is a nutball size Ideal's John Barlow adopted from when he worked for Winchester around 1880; they used that size / pitch in their reloading tool dies. I shopped around, and found a 5/8" x 30 tap at MSC, but never found any threading dies in that size; though they could be cut on a lathe. But I can't see any practical way to adapt the older 5/8" x 26 Simplex dies to an Ideal tong tool. Mick has kindly located ont of the little Simplex bench tools and a set of dies (similar to the old Lyman Tru-Line Jr., but not a direct copy, and is sending it to me to play with. Stay tuned....

floodgate

Frank46
01-28-2007, 04:59 AM
Floodgate, you might want to look at Live Steam magazine or any of the two sister publications. Think a place called Blue Ridge or something similar may well sell the british pipe thread taps and dies.

Bigjohn, stumbled across a potential problem with the cadet bbl. Just for the heck of it used a dial caliper like a depth guage and from the throat to the barrel breech face I got a reading of 1.300 and from the chamber it looks like there was a reamer run in for what looks like the 32-20 case. I'm going to double check later today, too bleary eyed and this old guy needs all the beauty rest he can get. I slugged the bbl so will have to play around with it, and see what dia. I need.
This project seems to have taken on a life of its own. Frank

floodgate
01-28-2007, 01:29 PM
Frank:

I read "Live Steam" for years, while running with a bunch of model railroaders. Coles used to carry the BSB taps and dies, but they have changed hands a couple of times since, and I'm not sure they're still in business. Other live steam suppliers probably can get them these days, but I am out of touch with that hobby now - too bogged down in moulds and mid-20thCentury loading tools. Thanks.

Doug

Nap
08-23-2007, 04:27 PM
Hi Guys,

I bought the RCBS .310-120 RN Heeled mold to shoot in my .310 Cadet rifle and received it today.

My problem is that the base appears to be flat not heeled as it should be.

Maybe it's just my ignorance. But how do you get the base to be heeled??

Also I have a spare .310 Cadet barrel if anyone needs one.

Thanks for any and all help!
Nap

Boz330
08-23-2007, 05:03 PM
Heeled just means that the part that goes in the case is smaller than the driving bands, similar to a 22 LR. The base is supposed to be flat. When the bullet is loaded that driving band is about the same diameter as the outside of the case.

Bob

Nap
08-23-2007, 09:51 PM
Hi All,

For those of you that were asking I have an original W.W. Greener .310 Cadet barrel with sights for $50 and postage.

I also have a nice forestock, front band and pin and a forestock cap and screw on E-bay right now.

Thanks Nap

Nap
08-23-2007, 09:54 PM
Heeled just means that the part that goes in the case is smaller than the driving bands, similar to a 22 LR. The base is supposed to be flat. When the bullet is loaded that driving band is about the same diameter as the outside of the case.

Bob

I figured it was my ignorance! I see these .310 boolits with the cone shaped recess in the back and thought that's what mine should look like. Thanks Bob for setting me straight.

Is that your Cessna 180 in the picture??

Nap

trooperdan
08-23-2007, 10:00 PM
Nap, I'm interested in that barrel; how is the bore and the finish?

Nap
08-23-2007, 11:18 PM
Hi TD,

It's a .310 Martini Cadet barrel I have for sale. It has 95% original rust blue finish complete with the rear sight. Marked W.W. Greener which was a somewhat rarer maker than BSA. Barrel will fit either makers receiver. Bore shows some frost but has good rifling and should shoot well. Has a few rust spots on the underneath outside. Most but not all would be covered by the forestock. This is a good barrel if you're trying to restore a Cadet. I can send you pics if you give me your E-mail.

Thanks Nap

Boz330
08-24-2007, 08:20 AM
I figured it was my ignorance! I see these .310 boolits with the cone shaped recess in the back and thought that's what mine should look like. Thanks Bob for setting me straight.

Is that your Cessna 180 in the picture??

Nap

Didn't know myself till I got one.
Yes, I'm partners with 2 other guys on it. Bought it as a wreck in 86 and rebuilt it. One guy was in the military and Uncle Sugar gave him much better aircraft to fly. The other partner is an A&P and he also has other stuff to fly. So it is pretty much mine anytime I want. Down side anymore is gas, it's not economical, so I mostly fly a 150 for grins and giggles.

Bob

jim4065
08-24-2007, 07:38 PM
I'm not getting anywhere with my Cadet. It's an original BSA. The problem is that I really am paying the price for not going first class in the beginning. I bought 100 rounds of loaded modified 32-20 ammo from Gads Custom Reloaded Cartridges back in January - he only shipped 95 but it took so long to get 'em that I just shut my mouth and used 'em.

Bought a Cadet mold (RCBS) from Midway and cast up some bullets to start re-loading. I was told to "just thumb press the bullet back into the case". Not in this world - maybe I fired 'em out of a tight chamber.

Read somewhere "Buy a set of 32-20 dies and adjust them". Did that, but - let's see ... the Lee sizer die is worthless because the 32-20 has a smaller neck. (But it does de-cap O.K.) The "Powder-thru-Expander" die is worthless because a 32-20 is about .2" longer than a .310 - the .310 doesn't get expanded. The bullet seating die may be useful - can't tell until I get some bullets to where they will begin to enter the case mouth. Oh yeah - bought a Factory Crimp Die - which may just work - but of course everything else has to come first. Incidentally Midway wants over $150 for a set of RCBS 310 Cadet dies.

Add in the original problem of getting enough thin rimmed cases to begin with, and I can understand why so many Cadets are re-chambered. I really like the stock sights and don't want to re-barrel. I also don't like the idea of a sub-caliber 32-20 bullet bouncing its way down the bore. Is 32 Special my only option? That's a pretty small butt plate and a very light rifle - on a Fun Scale it probably ranks between running two miles and shaving.

Hoping for some good ideas. :? :-?

Nap
08-24-2007, 08:24 PM
I got a nice new 3 die set of CH 4D .310 Cadet dies from Dave for $74 delivered. Call him, he's really helpful guy. 740-397-7214

RCBS makes a mould for the original .310 bullet. Buffalo Arms has them for $63 I think. 208-263-6953

Anybody want my .310 Cadet barrel? $50 and postage.
Thanks Nap

Nap
08-24-2007, 08:28 PM
Forgot to add that Jansa has original new brass for $75 a hundred US. Here's his contact info. Thanks Nap

Address: 458 Bexley Rd
Bexley NSW 2207
Sydney Australia
Phone Number: (02) 9599 2311
Fax Number: (02) 9556 1341
Mobile Number: 0411 031 948
International Number: 61 2 9599 2311
International Fax: 61 2 9556 1341
Email Address: jansa@hotkey.net.au
Alternative Email Address: mrbiggun@primusonline.com.au

Boz330
08-27-2007, 09:40 AM
Jim4065,
Do you have a 30 carbine die set by any chance? I use the expander from it to open up my case mouths and then thumb seat the boolit. I then use a cut down 32-20 crimp die to crimp the case mouth.
As far as the 32 special, I hear the recoil in that light gun and small butt plate is brutal, about one step up from a root canal.

Bob

jim4065
10-03-2007, 03:54 PM
Yes. I have two 30 Carbine die sets, but I can't find 'em. Got to start throwing stuff out, so I can use whatever remains. Got really irritated at a heel based boolit and pushed it into a case with my thumb. A light at the end of the whatever - work on it later, gotta clean the shop.

Boz330
10-04-2007, 08:36 AM
Yes. I have two 30 Carbine die sets, but I can't find 'em. Got to start throwing stuff out, so I can use whatever remains. Got really irritated at a heel based boolit and pushed it into a case with my thumb. A light at the end of the whatever - work on it later, gotta clean the shop.

Anymore when I see a light at the end of the tunnel, it's guaranteed to be the TRAIN[smilie=b:

Bob

dhtaxi
10-27-2007, 06:59 AM
I would love to buy your barrel nap but I live in the UK might be a problem getting it into the Country even though it is classed as a obsolete caliber.
Iv got a 310 greener but I think the barrel is shot.
Iv been following the thread some intresting stuff.

dromia
10-27-2007, 07:06 AM
Hi Dave,

how you doing mate?

Welcome aboard :drinks: :castmine: :drinks:

dhtaxi
10-27-2007, 08:18 AM
Hi how yeah doing Adam thought I seen you skulking about thought I better check it out see what you are up to.
I loaded 10 grains of N110 for the old girl but like I said I think the barrel is shot out.
Shame really. :coffee::Fire::drinks::drinks:
Iv browsed the site before some good stuff thougt I may as well register I enjoy casting etc. Its another intresting part of the hobby.
Sorry folks I didnt mean to hijack your thread. Back to buisness lets talk 310 cadets.

Bad Ass Wallace
10-27-2007, 08:30 AM
I'm not getting anywhere with my Cadet. It's an original BSA. The problem is that I really am paying the price for not going first class in the beginning. I bought 100 rounds of loaded modified 32-20 ammo from Gads Custom Reloaded Cartridges back in January - he only shipped 95 but it took so long to get 'em that I just shut my mouth and used 'em.

Hoping for some good ideas. :? :-?
The 32/20 conversions are not quiet that. I have 2 such rifles and from measurements the chamber is not anything like 32/20. According to a few old 'smiths (older than me :(that is) the 310 reamer was run into the original chamber and the rim rebate opened up "to accept 32/20 ammunition"

The bore should be nominally 0.316 and I use a conventional non-heeled boolit by Cast Bullet Engineering 317.125, sized to 0.317. Dies are ordinary 310 dies with a modified expander of 0.316 (the standard one is too small). Initially 32/20 cases have a huge bulge after seating the boolit but soon fireform to what I refer to as the 310 Magnum chamber!

I've seen a lot of conventional B/S given to the need for heeled bullets in the 310 but have proven many times that the type I recommend will consistantly shoot better. I can achieve groups of 1" at 50yds with all my rifles. :Fire:

317.125 design can be seen on the top row.
http://www.castbulletengineering.bigpondhosting.com/photos/album_010.htm?picture=../photos/8818b94727632e87f8d526cdbcd1c540.jpg

dromia
10-27-2007, 10:58 AM
Dave have you taken a Chamber/throat/muzzle slug or cast?

dhtaxi
10-27-2007, 01:43 PM
No I havent done that Adam but I have examined the barrel internally with a endascope not sure thats the right spelling. Anyway the bore is very dark with lots of pitting and signs of corrosion. There is very shallow rifling from the throat up to the front barrel band after that the bore is almost smooth.
I examined a 8mm mauser and a smle at the same time the rifling on them was deep and the full lentgh of the barrel.
Going to check the rest of my milsurps when I get time.

dromia
10-27-2007, 03:00 PM
"Endascope"?? is that what you use for haemorrhoid hunting? :confused:

Does sound b******d though.

Shame you didn't have it when you bought the rifle.

dhtaxi
10-27-2007, 04:41 PM
Yep your right they normally use them for peering up your butt or sometimes they shove em down your throat but only after they have been cleaned.
You are right should have had it with me when I bought the cadet.
Im hoping I might find a good barrel somewhere.

Ricochet
10-27-2007, 05:54 PM
I'd think relining the barrel's a good possibility with a cartridge like this.

dhtaxi
10-29-2007, 05:10 PM
But I have used some internal bore gauges to size the bore I am going to have a play cutting a heel onto some cast bullets in different diameters.
For instance I have a mauser 8mm mold that drops out at .323 if I cut a heel on it.
Well it just might work in the worn cadet I have other molds in different diameters I might try.
I have access to lots of Engineering equipment and some very skilled people who like these little challenges while they are doing this they dont have to actually do any work.
:mrgreen::mrgreen:

dromia
10-30-2007, 02:53 AM
Your still going to need some rifling in the thing though Dave.

The Double D
10-30-2007, 11:01 AM
How did I miss this thread? This is my kinda thread. And the .310 Cadet is one of my favorite cartridges. I just wish I had one with me here in South Africa



First the bore has 5 lands and grooves and is damned near impossible to get an accurate measurement of the internal diameter unless the slug is measured in a V block. I found an old gentleman who did this.....his name is O. H. McKeegan as I recall (he has since quit). My bore measured .3178.

It's not as hard as you think to measure odd numbered grooves. Fancy V-blocks not required. To measure slugs with odd number of rifling roll the slug between the slack jaws of your dial calipers. Observe the reading. Do it several times. The reading will repeat. That is your dimension. This is an old millwright trick that has been pooh-poohed numerous times, taken to the tool room to be proved wrong and apologized to several times. At least once here on CB.

I have measured a few bores that others called .317 and they all came out .320/.321.

The Double D
10-30-2007, 11:15 AM
I am lubing the slugs with Lee's "liquid alox" which leaves them a bit sticky and helps to hold the cartridge together.

I use my Lubsizer to fill the grease groove. But there is a trick to getting the lube in the groove and not in the heel. And, I learned it on this board some time ago.

Fill the bottom holes in the lube sizer die with lead shot. Use a punch to flatten them so they seal the holes. To lube back the pressure off the pump. Adjust so the lube groove in the bullets align with the top holes of the sizer die. Pull pressure on the lube pump to fill the groove then back off the pressure. It take a bit of adjusting to get the correct alignment and the right pump pressure and back off. Once you get the knack it becomes second nature.

The Double D
10-30-2007, 11:28 AM
I had originally ordered the longer cases and found I had to trim them to about 1.00" in order to chamber with the bullets I have (from LTD Cast Bullets, www.customcastbullets.com/) So I ordered the shorter ones @ 1.075 but they will have to be trimmed back as well.

The problemis the LTD bullet is not a .310 Cadet bullet. The driving band is to long and if used in correct length brass in Cadet chambers it will stick in the throat. I talked with Wayne Doudna several years ago and he admits the bullet is not right. I even loaned him my CBE mould so he would make the rigth bullets and he still wouldn't change.

http://www.fototime.com/01FBA5FCA4F24A0/standard.jpg

LTD's bullet is on the left. You can see the long cylinder area would extend way up in the throat and into the taper. You have to cut the brass way back to make the LTD bullet fit.

Bad Ass Wallace
08-05-2008, 07:08 PM
An interesting addition to my Cadet rifles was to recently buy a Winchester 92 fitted with a new BSA 310 Cadet barrel (unfired).

It still has the original 310 chambering but the gunsmith has silver soldered a couple of small ribs to the loading plate to act as feed guides. Darn thing feeds & functions 6 rounds in rapid fire, flawlessly.

There would seem to be quite a few of these conversions done years ago and may be an option for those with a "spare barrel" and no Martini action:Fire:

Kabloona15
05-09-2009, 05:53 PM
Dear JUMPTRAP and other martini cadet fans: I have a cadet in original 310 caliber, and I am trying to remain faithful to the original rounds for this rifle. But I am having problems seating the cast heeled bullets into the cases - I have bullets from an RCBS 310 mould, and Bertram brass, and a set of RCBS 310 dies. When I seat the bullet into the case the neck expands enough that the finished round will not fit into the rifle chamber. What is the trick for seating the cast bullets and maintaining the proper diameter to chamber properly?

Kabloona

Kabloona15
05-09-2009, 06:06 PM
I've load for the 310 for many years and settled on the CBE 120gn .317 bullet which is not a healed base type.

I load 4.5gn AP70 which gives just over 1000fps.

There is another "variation" of the 310 that seldom gets mention, many rifles had the chamber reamed and extractor cut deepened to accept the standard 32/20 Winchester. I've found that so altered you have a case that is parallel sided and about 3mm longer than the .310.

This round can be loaded with 310 dies and fired with 5.5gn AP70 for 1200fps. Apart from the headstamp, folks get excited when I tell them it is a 310 Magnum:roll:

BAW: I am curious about this CBE 120gn .317 cast bullet - I assume you are loading these into a standard 310 case, correct? My difficulty has been over expanding the case neck when seating the 310/320 heeled cast bullet. Any tips on how to do this and get a round that will chamber successfully?

Thanks Kabloona

Bigjohn
05-10-2009, 07:54 PM
It appears that RCBS has an oversize heel on their boolit which expands the case mouth too much to allow the cartridge to chamber.

As to expanding the case mouth, I use a 'LYMAN' type "M" die in the second stage of reloading, only belling the case mouth very slightly to get the boolit to enter when seating.

Here Downunder we are using mainly CBE moulds and I personally have had no experience with the RCBS mould.

John

Grey Beard
05-21-2009, 07:08 AM
Finally managed to obtain all the bit I needed to reload for my mint condition 310 martini BSA
Bertram brass head stamped 310 cadet
ADI powder AP100 6gn
Hawkesburyriver projectiles 122gn round nosed 316 diam leads

this combination gives me a consistant 1250 feet per second and took out the recent ANZAC 310 shoot at my club with a score of 100% at 50m and 90% at 100m for plinking.

broncobirnbaum
06-18-2009, 01:01 AM
I have a BSA cadet in 310. All original, good condition. Victoria stamps from 1911. I slugged the bore and rolled the five groove bullet in my digital caliber multiple times. At the smallest it measures 318 and it goes as high as 322. I presume that range is due to my poor method of measurement. I am a black powder shooter, so that kind of loading is easy for me. I have some original 310 shells cases that I got off eBay and some cut and head trimmed 32-20 cases. I use lead tips that I bought from GAD. They measure 326 just above the grease ring. I decap the old primers with a hand made and hand held decapper and a hammer. I have no dies for 310 and no shell holder. I dont resize. I fill the cases with black until the powder will be compressed about 1/8 inch when I seat the bullet. I seat the bullet with my thumb and if it is too hard to push in then I push the bullet into the shell by pressing it into a hole that I carved into the side of my reloading table. The hole does not deform the bullet tip shape. Since the tip is a healed bullet, it naturally stops at the right place and since this is a single shot gun, I dont need a crimp. When I shoot these bullets, I dip the loaded tips into a cup of BP lube and then chamber them into the Aussie Cadet. Accuracy is outstanding and many of my SASS club members enjoy shooting this rifle with me.

I kind of wish that this gun had a bit more oomphf to it when fired. I am a long range Black Powder SASS shooter. I have seen some Cadets rechambered for 32 Special, but that does not excite me since it is a smokeless round. I have just recently heard of a few cadets rechambered for 32-40. Now that is a BP round I can have fun with out to 400 yards on steel plates. Does anyone have experiences with 32-40 Cadets?

Bronco Birnbaum

Myshot
09-06-2009, 05:12 AM
I have found that with either the outside lubed bullet or the heeled bullet, I get better accuracy when i put the LOADED ROUND THROUGH the sizing die. This crimps the cae into the bullet like 22 rimfires are crimped. My rifle is a BSA model 8, with a parkerhale peep sight. I have found ADI 2205 does not burn well, and I am trying AS30. 1 1/4-1 1/2 ' groups at 50 yards. I use hawksbury 120 outside lubed and hawksbury 128 grained heeled projectiles in Bertram case which I have never had any problem with.

mzlldr
08-28-2011, 04:04 AM
310 Military cartridges . I have recently acquired 200 plus rounds which I would like to shoot and then reload the cases . I believe that the cases are Berdan primed . I want to convert the cases to a standard small rifle primer , if this is possible . Has anyone done this successfully before and , if so , would they be kind enough to advise me how to go about it , please . My reason for wanting to do this is that I want to shoot original ( 310 ) loads in my rifle , but I dont want to pay A $ 90 per 100 for new Bertram cases . All advice and assistance will be greatly appreciated .
Many thanks . mzlldr ( Australia )

JeffinNZ
08-28-2011, 04:53 AM
Sell the military cartridges and use the money to buy boxer components.

303Guy
08-28-2011, 05:28 AM
I'm with Jeff. Converting collectable milatary cartridges to boxer primers is no longer original loads anyway.

Four Fingers of Death
08-28-2011, 06:27 AM
310 Military cartridges . I have recently acquired 200 plus rounds which I would like to shoot and then reload the cases . I believe that the cases are Berdan primed . I want to convert the cases to a standard small rifle primer , if this is possible . Has anyone done this successfully before and , if so , would they be kind enough to advise me how to go about it , please . My reason for wanting to do this is that I want to shoot original ( 310 ) loads in my rifle , but I dont want to pay A $ 90 per 100 for new Bertram cases . All advice and assistance will be greatly appreciated .
Many thanks . mzlldr ( Australia )

The 200 rounds of mil ammo would be worth a lot more than $90. You will get to a point in llife where these sort of projects just don't make sense. jansa Arms and Western Firearms sell the brass and usually in lots of 20 cases. It is dearer than most brass, but a couple of packets of 20 will see you a lot of shooting. Most calibres cost $75 plus for 100, so $90 is reasonable. It will take you a long time to wear them out.

Bristoe
10-11-2011, 06:11 PM
I have a BSA cadet in 310. All original, good condition. Victoria stamps from 1911. I slugged the bore and rolled the five groove bullet in my digital caliber multiple times. At the smallest it measures 318 and it goes as high as 322. I presume that range is due to my poor method of measurement. I am a black powder shooter, so that kind of loading is easy for me. I have some original 310 shells cases that I got off eBay and some cut and head trimmed 32-20 cases. I use lead tips that I bought from GAD. They measure 326 just above the grease ring. I decap the old primers with a hand made and hand held decapper and a hammer. I have no dies for 310 and no shell holder. I dont resize. I fill the cases with black until the powder will be compressed about 1/8 inch when I seat the bullet. I seat the bullet with my thumb and if it is too hard to push in then I push the bullet into the shell by pressing it into a hole that I carved into the side of my reloading table. The hole does not deform the bullet tip shape. Since the tip is a healed bullet, it naturally stops at the right place and since this is a single shot gun, I dont need a crimp. When I shoot these bullets, I dip the loaded tips into a cup of BP lube and then chamber them into the Aussie Cadet. Accuracy is outstanding and many of my SASS club members enjoy shooting this rifle with me.

I kind of wish that this gun had a bit more oomphf to it when fired. I am a long range Black Powder SASS shooter. I have seen some Cadets rechambered for 32 Special, but that does not excite me since it is a smokeless round. I have just recently heard of a few cadets rechambered for 32-40. Now that is a BP round I can have fun with out to 400 yards on steel plates. Does anyone have experiences with 32-40 Cadets?

Bronco Birnbaum

Long time no see, guy.

I've been having a lot of fun with the Cadet I bought offa you.

I made a scope mount for it that fits in the rear sight base and holds a 2.75 Burris scout scope.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h225/FalMike/mini.jpg

I've been loading it with non heeled .321" cast bullets which were originally for a 32-40 until I trimmed them to .670" in a lathe. They weigh 128 grains. I stuff them in Starline 32-20 cases which have been trimmed to 1.120" and fireformed to the Cadet's chamber.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h225/FalMike/favorite.jpg

They don't look like other .310 Cadet cartridges. I size the cases with a C&H .30 Carbine die and do the rest of the loading procedure with some dies I turned out in the lathe. (expander/flare, seater, taper crimp)

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h225/FalMike/racks.jpg

I pack 'em with 15.5 grains of AA1680 and they do 1640 fps,..have a nice lil' *bark* to 'em when ya touch one off!

They'll do this at 100 yards all day long.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h225/FalMike/3moa.jpg

linus
10-23-2011, 01:10 AM
I am fortunate in owning two Martini cadets in 310. The one still in military configuration had a small problem in that at the lowest sight setting it would hit about 4 or more inches higher than point of aim. So I sawed off the tapered blade and dovetailed into the front sight block a small blade sight off a Swedish Mauser. Then filed it down until it hit an inch high at 50 yards.
I am using CBE's 120 grain cast bullet with a soft alloy. That is everything from wheel weights at the hardest to a 1:50 tin in lead mixture at the softest. Pure lead worked quite well, but adding a tad of tin improved pouring quality.
For powder I have focused on Unique at 4.5 to 5.0 gr and AA9, ranging from 5.0 to 6.5 gr. I haven't settled on the most accurate load yet, but am quite happy with 5.5 gr of AA9.
Lubing these heeled bullets is a pain and easily messy. I tried hand lubing which worked quite well but finger application was tedious and messy. Then i switched to using Lee's liqid Alox diluted with a very small amount of 90% isopropyl alcohol to reduce viscosity. The 75% is less miscible with the alox. I rolled the bullets around in the mixture and then stood them up nose first in a wooden block with holes drilled into it at a smaller diameter than the bullet but wide enough to give support to the bullet's nose. Then I decreased the time and mess further with a new technique. Using the same alox/alcohol mixture I used a pipe cleaner as a paint brush and applied the lube to the groove and surrounding areas on the bullet, then stood them up nose first in the holes in the wood block. Most never required wiping the bases clean after drying.
I can't praise Jim Allison's CBE mold enough. I would like to hear others' experiences with other bullets from the varieties he offfers, like his 130gr bullet.
In an other post i will elaborate on my other cadet that had been converted to 32-20. A truly superb rifle once the compatibilities were worked out.

Linus.
I got this nickname when I used to write Linus Was Here on bathroom walls in Viet Nam. I guess that dates me

Titch
11-14-2011, 04:40 PM
I've reloaded for the .310 cadet for a couple of years. Two things I've found that are worth knowing. If you cast the .310 boolit from a Lee mould it's slightly pointed, rather than round nosed and the dam thing gets pulled back out of the case when you make 'em with Simplex dies. I haven't found a way around this except to seat 'em with finger pressure only, which isn't ideal. The round nose castings don't do this. Also, I've used brass cut down 32-20's and "proper" .310 cases imported from Australia. Both work fine, but I also tried nickel plated .32-20 cases and cut them down and they can't hold a 3 foot group at 50 yards. I don't know why, but avoid nickel cases like the plague. Otherwise, the .310 is a fine gun for a pistol calibre range. I've successfully shot mine on military reactive targets right out to 200 yards without problem and with dependable accuracy.

Four Fingers of Death
11-15-2011, 06:00 AM
Then I decreased the time and mess further with a new technique. Using the same alox/alcohol mixture I used a pipe cleaner as a paint brush and applied the lube to the groove and surrounding areas on the bullet,


Would it be better if you loaded the heeled boolit and used the cartridge case to hold onto while you painted the Alox onto the lube grooves?

Hooker53
07-26-2014, 07:02 PM
BigJohn, any updates on your testing?? Really good thread. Enjoyed it.

Hilly
12-21-2014, 06:05 AM
Jansa arms no longer handle Simplex dies and accessories. You can now go directly to Simplex for dies and accessories.
Their web site is http://www.simplexreloading.com/ and they are pretty darn quick to get things out. My .310 dies were delivered in 3 days!

Hilly
03-24-2015, 02:43 AM
Well, I finally sorted out my projectile/case/loading die issues and have fired a couple of test rounds. They chambered in 2 different Cadets, both went bang and the projectiles both went somewhere near where I was aiming.
What I learned in the process is that "Starline" brass is thinner than the old "Bertram Bullet Co." brass and a heeled projectile will be a loose fit in the case when you use "Simplex" dies. Changing to a non-heeled projectile solves that problem.
Then I had to melt down the 200 heeled projectiles and re-make them.
Anyway, it was a learning experience.

Hooker53
07-19-2015, 10:01 PM
I found a new test Boolit a few months ago and thought I would load a few up and try them this weekend. They are casted a little smaller then a heeled Boolit but they are very hollow based. I loaded some with 4.5 and 5 grns of Trail Boss. Was Very surprised at how well they worked. Will do some more testing in the next few weeks. Keep shooting gents.

Roy
Hooker53

Rapidrob
04-08-2019, 08:58 AM
A great old post that should never die.
Back in '66 I bought a Cadet rifle from a gun shop for six bucks. There was no ammo of course for these rifles,not even Old Western Scrounger had any for sale then.
I used cut down .32-20 brass and thinned the rims with a Swiss needle file. I filled the case with FFF-g black powder under a OO-Buck ball. The local Crows and Rabbits feared me.
Jump 50 years later and vast quantities of tried / failed and good loads for this rifle and if the combination is correct you can get pretty good accuracy.
I fellow recommended I try this new mold casting a heeled 130 grain bullet. It has a long metplath and really seals the bore well when fired.
I ordered a three cavity mold and tried out 100 rounds at the 200 meter range.
The accuracy was astounding. Where I was getting 3 MOA with my old RCBS loads, this bullet shrunk the groups down to almost 1 MOA. For an open sighted rifle and my seasoned eyes I'll take it!
Over the years I have tried fast and slow loads. It seems as it does with other calibers a really consistent 3/4 charge load always gives the best results.
I'm using the tried and true 4.5 grains of Unique powder and a standard Winchester Small Rifle primer.
I do do a crimp on the heeled bullet. I found that my bullet cannalure tool will run a crimp line around the bullets base/case mouth and really hold the bullet in place requiring a consistent bullet pull force to overcome the crimp.
I'm working on a "stab crimp" pair of pliers to try as well.
The new mold is Aluminum and is large requiring a lot of heat to give you consistently shaped bullets but once you have done that ( around 720 degrees F ) you will get perfect bullets. I do use a SACO lube/sizer and a .323 die to lube the one grease ring.
So far there are no signs of leading in the rifles bore.
239465
239466

Hooker53
04-08-2019, 05:37 PM
Hello Rob. It's a great feeling when you take an old rifle like this and work up a load like that isn't it? That very load you use, the 4.5 grain of U seems to work for a lot of these Cadets. I use the RCBS mold and my rifle seems to like that Boolit as long as they are a little on the soft side. My Cadet would be one of the last guns I would sell. I lucked up and got a really nice one. Thanks for posting your info and Keep Shooting!!!

Roy

Rapidrob
04-10-2019, 09:14 AM
I'll be shooting the rifle in my clubs match this month which is an Off-Hand match shooting at 200 meters at a 10x12" steel target and NRA Hi-Power Silhouette Chicken targets if the wind is calm.
I've wondered how well the rifle would shoot the .323 ( 8mm Nambu ) FMJ pistol bullet? While light, it may stabilize well.
One of the Australian sites says the WWII boot camp trainees were shooting a FMJ bullet out to 300 yards and "accuracy was as good as the .303 rifle at 300 yards" with the Martini Cadet.
Anyone have any more info on this?
I love the history of firearms and how they were used.

windy
05-16-2019, 07:46 PM
Rob, Huntington (Huntington Die Specialties) has plated Nambu bullets--I think the current batch is 100gr and .320--and they shot well in my rechambered cadet in 32WS, over 7.5gr of Trailboss--about 1600 ft/sec. I never found a load for them at closer to original speed, so my sights were always a bit off (I set 'em at about 60 yards for a 100-yard target; they were dead on at 50 yards set at zero) and they never did quite get me 1-minute groups, but they sure were fun to plink with. I picked a grouse out of a tree at 90 yards once; cost me 1/4 of the meat, but very effective. I'm getting that one rebarreled to 25-35 (1-10" twist) since I now have another in original 310 chambering, which came with the earlier rear sight (no windage adjustment) and grouped OK but about 4" right at 50 yards; I'm rebarreling it with a barrel fitted with the better sight. I'll be playing with both this fall; I think the 25-35 will make an excellent "stalking rifle" and the original configuration is great for everything you'd use a 32-20 for. I'd like to find a source for the FMJ bullets they made for WW2, just for grins--they thought they' have to use 'em if the Japanese invaded. Imagine those school kids facing the Nip infantry with single-shots!
windy

swamp
05-16-2019, 07:58 PM
I have a few of the jacketed rounds by Kynoch. They used a pointed FMJ. Tried one and it fired fine. Berdan primed of course.
swamp

windy
05-20-2019, 05:30 PM
Hey, guys, Huntington's has the Bertram brass on sale at 20 bucks a 20-round bag; that's about half price where I come from. Best take advantage--I did!
windy

gunnie
06-10-2019, 04:06 AM
That's less than we pay for 310 brass here.

Have two Martini Cadets & have been having issues with one of them. It wasn't firing every round. Out of 50 reloads there would have been almost half that didn't work. No or only minimal firing pin mark on the primer.

Finally figured it out today. Someone has cut the chamber to use shortened 32-20 brass! The thicker rim of the 32-20 brass was allowing the 310 brass to seat too deep in the chamber. So now I have to decide whether or not to cut chamber for 32-20 or just shorten 310 bras.

john.k
06-10-2019, 07:06 AM
probably just cut the rim recess deeper.........this can be remedied if you must use costly 310 brass,just put a couple of spots of solder in the rim recess,even super glue works for a long while....I have always used 32/20 brass at around $30 a hundred.IMHO ,only newbies use the costly brass.There is no need to shorten the cases,and no need for heeled bullets ,as 32/20 is quite thin,and Cadet barrel has no neck as such,just a long taper due to the heeled bullet.If the cases are left unsized,a 316 bullet fits ok..(316 is right for a Greener)

gunnie
06-11-2019, 12:33 AM
John, I don't think I'll stuff round with trying to make the rim recess shallower. The Remington 32-20 brass fits in fine with minimal barrel face visible compared to a few thou more visible with 310 brass.

To follow my thought processes further, I then tried one of my 32-20 reloads for my Winnie Mod92, in the problem Cadet. The loaded round would not fully enter the chamber. Now, considering that the 32-20 case is somewhat longer than the 310, by 8-12mm's or so (don't know exact, just going off what I noticed looking at the two side by side) it stands to reason that the 32-20 will not chamber in the 310 chamber - correct? Hence why I assume that the previous owner has had the chamber modified by having the rim recess deepened to accept the thicker 32-20 brass.

I got a mate of mine to check the Cadets he has in his collection and he doesn't have any with a deep rim recessed chamber. All show correct head-spacing for 310 brass. Now considering that 32-20 brass was an easier option than 310 brass, I'm not surprised that this has occurred. Additionally, as the four serial numbers stamped on the problem Cadet are all the same, it follows my thoughts as being a simple mod to carry out. Without any need for replacing a barrel etc.

So, as I don't want to replace what is an 8/10 or better barrel on this rifle, modifying 32-20 brass to suit the chamber is a more appropriate option I think. I have plenty of 32-20 brass, bought four bags of Remington brass about 10yrs about ($28 a bag) and was given 200-odd factory 32-20 rounds, so there's no shortage of rounds/brass for the Model92. So I can afford to cut 100 just for this Cadet. Plus I have 200 310 cases and several packets of Super 310 factory ammo. Was also given two boxes of the military jacketed ammo, but these will remain as is for collectors value.

I've found the older Super brass to be a slightly better quality of brass than the newer Bertram product but bought new stuff so I could split ammo to dedicate to each rifle. Last lot of new Bertram 310 brass I bought, I paid $28 a bag of 20, about 2yrs ago. I thought this was OK so bought 3 bags. It was better than paying almost $300 for 100 Sako 22PPC cases or $105 for 20 x .375 Nitro Express flanged 2.5" cases!

I've got a third Cadet in the mill; just waiting on the PTA to come in. It's stamped QLD CMF, all matching numbers with a 7-8/10 bore and overall good condition. I'm planning on cleaning the woodwork up and having the metalwork re-blued to present to my wife for a Xmas pressie. She has started shooting Cadet match in Service Rifle as she got bored sitting watching me compete. Can't complain about that eh!

I think the Martini Cadets are a fantastic action. They make a great little low recoil ex-mil issue rifle to shoot with and can be very accurate with a great trigger. The action is also perfect for a custom single shot rifle. I have several at present - 17 Ackley Hornet, 22 K-Hornet, 17-222Rimmed, 20-222Rimmed and 357Mag. Also have two in 22Rimfire - Model 12/15 and a Sportco Clubmaster.

Great thread on a fantastic action/rifle.

john.k
06-11-2019, 07:10 AM
Mine is deeper cause I took off the barrel and took a bit out...........I also slightly counterbored the muzzle,which previously seemed to be done with a drillbit held cockeyed...........anyway ,its a $30 gun which couldnt hit anything,now shoots OK for a plinker......I did consider getting a nicer BSA 1911,but ,no more guns,got enough.

gunnie
06-11-2019, 08:06 AM
Mine is deeper cause I took off the barrel and took a bit out...........I also slightly counterbored the muzzle,which previously seemed to be done with a drillbit held cockeyed...........anyway ,its a $30 gun which couldnt hit anything,now shoots OK for a plinker......I did consider getting a nicer BSA 1911,but ,no more guns,got enough.

Baaahhh humbug John! You can never have enough guns!!! I'm always on the look-out for that next addition to the safes. And, if the safes are full, then it's time for another safe!:D

Stephen Cohen
06-12-2019, 08:10 AM
A good friend of mine uses his Martini cadet in Military shoots, he loads the heeled cast bullets that I coat with HI-Tek for him, he has found that accuracy improved out of site with this coating. Regards Stephen

curator
06-12-2019, 08:51 AM
Recent posts on another web forum claims that the fired 7.62X38 Nagant pistol case needs only shortening to perfectly fit the .310 Cadet chamber. Supposedly PPU is offering new brass for this size as well. This might be worth looking into for those who don't want to spend US$ 1.00 per case for brass that only lasts a few reloadings. I have 2 Cadet rifles, one original and one "rechambered" for .32-20. For the original, I trim .32-20 brass and thin the rim to .045". The altered one needs no brass alterations. I load both with the heeled CBE .320/120 boolits cast from ACWW and lube with LLA or 45-45-10. I never need to resize cases, just de-cap, reprime, add powder (4.5 grains of Unique) thumb start the boolit and shoot. Cases last almost forever and this load shoots to the original sights in my unaltered Cadet. In contrast, my expensive Bertram brass lasted about 5 loadings before cracking.

gunnie
06-13-2019, 02:13 AM
There is a lot of conjecture round the circles re heeled over non-heeled. One of the posters on here advocates using non-heeled to get great accuracy. I'm heading his way this week-end and taking one of my 310's to trial and find out for myself.

Sat down in the reloading room today and shortened 20 Remington 32-20 cases for the Cadet with the deeper rim recess. Will be good to trial some reloads in it and see if this has resolved the problem with this rifle.

barrabruce
06-13-2019, 08:38 PM
I did a chamber cast in mine.
Saved me a lot of guessing to what’s actually what.
I use heeled bullet.
But I also breach seat paper patched bullets as well.

I found the std documented case length in mine well short.
The barrel dimensions thou big are not surprising in mine.

Maybe why it was put aside and kept in good nick till I got it.
(Thank you for putting it in storage mode for me who ever you were)

If I had another I’d make the brass and bullet match that as well.

Retired_Handloader
06-13-2019, 09:07 PM
As "Curator" has noted, the use of Nagant Revolver Brass Cases in the .310 Cadet, is growing. Using the Nagant cases eliminates the rim thinning, which is generally necessary on 32-20 cases. My Nagant brass functions 100% properly in my Cadet.

I obtain my new, unprimed 7.62X38R brass, from Graf. I trim my Nagant Revolver brass to 1.120". These Nagant cases come 1.442" in length, and will lengthen a bit after sizing. Having a nagant revolver, I can tell you that these cases are a bit shorter than the cases used with factory ammunition, which are approximately 1.520". Their use requires trimming more than .3" off.

I use a manual Wilson case trimmer. To save time, I saw off most of the excess, and then finish trim in the Wilson trimmer. I'm FL sizing prior to trimming. The FL sized Nagant case can now be held in a Wilson Case holder for the .32 S&W Long. My holder is the "Q-Type", that I'm using without the "locking pin". To some, this may seem like a difficult procedure, but it is not. The newly formed cases give every indication of long life.

For bullets, my "make-do" load is using a aloxed Speer 98 grain HBWC, seated ( in my rifle ) to a COAL of 1.335"and very light taper crimp by a Lyman .32 S&W L Taper crimp die. These HBWC's average .3135", and so are undersized, but with using relatively fast powders the hollow base expansion seems to seal well. At 25 yards, 3 rounds fired produce a single small hole. That is, a "hole", not a larger "cloverleaf". While determining the source of my soon-to-be-ordered heel bullet mould, these light loads suffice for now. I've had good luck with Tite-Group, 700X, Reddot and Bullseye. Unique will be next to try. Powder loads start at 2.0, and end at 3.0, without a filler. For those who like old infantry rifles, like me, the Speer HBWC sized to .310-.311" make really nice "cat-sneeze" loads out to 50 yards or so. I use it in all my .30 cal rifles, and 1" square TP Tissue filler to keep powder to rear.

I like the fully adjustable rear sight on my Cadet, but my old eyes deserve better. I attached a Williams Aperature Sight (very small one), using a piece of Double-sided tape, to the barrel just forward of the flat breech section. What a difference! My particular Williams Sight was made for a "Browning Auto-Loader" rifle, and has a slightly rounded base. The tape is advertised as holding something like 40 pounds per square inch. The sight will absolutely not fall off the rifle. Trim the tape around the sight base, and apply some black magic marker, and it will look like a gunsmith installed it. I would not be getting the accuracy this Cadet is capable of, if not for this Williams Peep sight...Lastly, With this peep sight I can develop loads that I know are accurate for when I revert back to the issue sights. With this Williams sight at its' lowest setting, a 6:00 hold hits 4" high at 25 yards, if I don't modify the front sight. Works well for load development, and that was my desire.

john.k
06-13-2019, 09:29 PM
On the subject of rim thickness......the Australian military determined that any 32-20 rifle would work reliably with the MF made 310 rounds......and called in all the Model 92s and Savages in 32-20 to be used by the defence volunteers.......but they also claimed the Japs were using 22s(pea rifles) and had such weak eyesight they couldnt hit anything......

barrabruce
06-14-2019, 12:00 AM
And my 0.325" groove barrel was gunna shoot them 0.316" jacketed bullets real good too.
If you waited till you could see the white of their eyes through their beer google glasses ‘; then aiming was not needed and the solid butt would have been useful for spraying teeth everywhere.

My grandfather must have felt real safe.

Four Fingers of Death
06-14-2019, 03:32 AM
At the Infantry Museum in Singleton, I saw a 32/20 1892 Winchester that belonged to some Colonel. A Sargeant cook was a crack shot and after his duties were finished in the evening, he would borrow the little carbine and goo shoot some Germans before returning to his bunk for an early start next morning in the trench kitchen.

Stephen Cohen
06-14-2019, 08:52 AM
At the Infantry Museum in Singleton, I saw a 32/20 1892 Winchester that belonged to some Colonel. A Sargeant cook was a crack shot and after his duties were finished in the evening, he would borrow the little carbine and goo shoot some Germans before returning to his bunk for an early start next morning in the trench kitchen.

That Singleton Museum had some wonderful Vietnam era firearms which proved too tempting to a soldier I knew of, his sticky fingers got him in some hot water as it seems pinching parts to reactivate an AK was frowned on by Police. I was surprised to see all those who earned the Victoria Cross had a wall to themselves, I found my mothers cousin Frank Partridge VC also there, I still remember her in tears the day he was killed in a car accident. Regards Stephen

Four Fingers of Death
06-14-2019, 09:07 AM
That Singleton Museum had some wonderful Vietnam era firearms which proved too tempting to a soldier I knew of, his sticky fingers got him in some hot water as it seems pinching parts to reactivate an AK was frowned on by Police. I was surprised to see all those who earned the Victoria Cross had a wall to themselves, I found my mothers cousin Frank Partridge VC also there, I still remember her in tears the day he was killed in a car accident. Regards Stephen

My whole family was glued to the TV watching him and Barry Jones do Battle on Bob and Dolly Dyer's Quiz Show Pick a Box!

Stephen Cohen
06-15-2019, 12:58 AM
My whole family was glued to the TV watching him and Barry Jones do Battle on Bob and Dolly Dyer's Quiz Show Pick a Box!

Yes seems we are somewhere in the same age group as I also remember Barry Jones beating him by one point and the whole final night was Barry Jones topics, I remember Barry had the nasty habit of asking for question to be repeated to give him more time to work out the answer. I understand Barry was a Rhodes man and Frank only went to 3rd class and was self taught by reading encyclopedia by lantern light. After Franks death the family drove to his home town and visited the new home he built for his wife and the old shack he and his dad lived in. Sorry for off topic folks but Frank was a brave man and earned the highest military award this country has to offer for bravery. Regards Stephen

Rookandrabbit
06-15-2019, 08:51 AM
I read the Wikipedia entry on Frank John Partridge V.C. He was an exceptionally brave man.That generation were made of the Right Stuff. I have read the entries in the London Gazette for citations on awards for the Victoria Cross and Gallantry medals, words can not express what the men went through endured and accomplished.


I regret selling my .310 martini.......
Kind regards Rookandrabbit.

gunnie
06-18-2019, 08:36 AM
Well the week-end was a success. I learnt a lot about casting projectiles suited to my particular rifles/chamberings.
We also trialed a few rounds of standard 310Cadet (BB brass) with a 120gn flat based projectile seated out so that it just engaged the rifling. This held the case back just far enough so that the firing pin would strike effectively. The rounds fired without incident & were accurate to boot! Lesson learned.

The load of choice was 4.5gn of AP70N under the 120gn flat base round nosed cast. Velocity is around 1200fps and it's a mild and accurate load. As long as you have a reasonable bore this load should prove to be worthwhile in your rifle.
We also loaded the same projectile and powder charge into the shortened 32-20 cases that I made up to suit the 'problem' Cadet with it's deeper rim recess. These too, functioned without any issues and were accurate.

So now I'm charge with enthusiasm and new knowledge to dive head first into the casting realm and working with cast projectiles in my rifles. Thanks BAW, you're a legend mate!:awesome::guntootsmiley:

gavernjones
07-21-2019, 06:35 AM
Hi, I am reloading my 310 cadet with 5g of AP70n with 125g projectiles and am also using Remington small rifle primers, about 1 in 10 won’t ignite properly so I need to recock it an then it will fire. Factory loads are not an issue, what primers are people using when reloading. Cheers


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

barrabruce
07-21-2019, 06:54 AM
Any of the small rifle primers in mine.
I have no issues.
Clean and Check the firing pin. Should be Roughly 45 thou.

Check head space between barrell and breach with a feeler gauge.
Add that to how far a case slides in for headspace.

I load mine so as the nose engraves the rifling.
I only partially neck size to load bullets.
This way the cases is fired formed and have no headspace issues after that.

Hope it helps.
I will fix my heeled mould one day.

gavernjones
07-21-2019, 07:03 AM
Ok yep it has been through the gun smith and has very little wear in any of the components and is in excellent condition. Will double check he has checked all these. A friend of mine went to cci primers for this reason, well that’s what he thought and so far so good. Any other ideas are much appreciated. Thank you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

barrabruce
07-27-2019, 08:16 AM
How thick are your rims?
Do they stick in past the outside of the extractor / breach face when chambered?
If the gun checks out o.k. Then it’s either the case rims too thin and the firing pin don’t reach it fully to engage the anvil in the primer or the spring is so weak it won’t work.Either that or the firing pin is being held back or is too short to reach for some reason.

woodbutcher
07-27-2019, 06:11 PM
:D Most interesting thread.Just read the whole thing.Maybe,one of these years I will have the long green to purchase one of these sweet rifles.Sort of got hooked on Martinis many years ago when a friend of my Fathers let me shoot his Martini/Henry in 45/70.Now that was a fun afternoon.Saw a lot of really nice ones for sale,but never had the cash at the time,OR had cash and none were available:cry:.Ahh well,that`s like the old song says"That`s Life".Thanks to all for posting.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

Ben_51004
09-26-2020, 09:01 PM
Wow, what a great thread! I've really enjoyed reading all the posts from the beginning. I have a Cadet, but didn't feel compelled to move that project to the front of the line... so much fun stuff to do since retirement. Now I want to get it out and running. I was particularly interested in the post about using the Nagant cases. Bullets still seem to be a problem... but RCBS still makes their Cadet mold offering. Thanks to you all for an entertaining evening, and for inspiration. All the best to you all!!

M-Tecs
11-04-2022, 01:21 AM
Raising this one from the dead. I just picked on of these up. I've always wanted a full size one but this area is flooding with Khyber Pass fakes. I know this one is legit. Not sure if I am going to keep it in the 310 or rebarrel.

Rapier
11-04-2022, 11:28 AM
Not sure if it is I am too lazy to make 310 brass or have a need to make a new Cadet, but were it me, I would re-barrel to 357 Super Mag. With rifle bullets, j or cast, the 357 SM fits for the Cadet "curve." It is accurate and unusual to boot. I have made two 357 SMs, so far, plus a 218 Bee, 222R, 225 Win, and a 30-20.
The 30-20 was to take advantage of a .308 barrel with 1-10 twist, plus most 32-20 dies come with a 30 cal ball or with sizer dies also.
This is the walnut 357 SM I did up.

M-Tecs
11-04-2022, 01:23 PM
If I do install a new barrel it will be a 38 Special, standard 357 Mag or 225 Win. I have lot of brass for all three and zero 357 Super Mag or Maximum brass.