new to pp and have some question

[sisiphunter]

Hello all,

I've been reading up a bit all over the site, but am interested in paper patching and tried it out, but now I have some questions.

I am shooting a 303 brit in a no1 mk3 from 1909. The bore is .308", grooves, .311". I sized bullets to .309", then wrapped with 9lb onionskin then sized to .311 "...used LLA before wrapping and on pp before sizing again.

So, the round shot, using open sites and 13gr Unique about 3-4' high, well over the paper....Is this normal to get it to hit so high????....my normal metal jackets are still hitting normally..

Also I never found any paper on the range or on the burm. I looked into the bore after each shot and did not see any leading but there was a fuzzy haze in the bottom of the bore after each shot and closer to the chamber than the muzzle. It went away after about 15 seconds or if I blow into the bore. I also tried running a cleaning rod in and nothing would come out. I dont know what that was in there, but I could not get anything to come out. Anyone else ever see this????

I'm sure I will have a lot of questions here, but this is a start. Thanks, Matt

[303Guy]

... but there was a fuzzy haze in the bottom of the bore after each shot and closer to the chamber than the muzzle. It went away after about 15 seconds or if I blow into the bore. I also tried running a cleaning rod in and nothing would come out. I dont know what that was in there, but I could not get anything to come out. Anyone else ever see this????Yup. Often. If you leave it in the bore, it settles onto the bore and makes it look quite scary the next time you look down it. But it cleans out just fine. Is it powder 'dust' or lube vapours?


... used LLA before wrapping and on pp before sizing again.That won't work. What that does is 'glue' the patch to the fired boolit. You don't want that, you want the patch to come off the boolit as it exits the muzzle. (I tried that too by the way :D ).

But the important thing is to try things out and see what happens! If you like, I can tell what I have been playing around with. Have a look at Zeek's post "The rest of us". I posted some pics of experiments to get the patch to disintegrate in one of my Lee Enfields. (Fun rifles, by the way!):mrgreen:

[pdawg_shooter]

You may have better luck with a 16# paper and sizing the patched bullet to .312/.313 or as large as will fit the chamber throat. Dont worry about being larger than the rifle bore, the paper will compress to a perfect fit and seal.

[docone31]

My patched loads normally hit high.
I have shot my .303 Brit with both paper and jacketeds. The jacketeds hit several inches below the paper patches.
I think, the patched loads are going a little faster than the jacketeds.
Rather than LLA, try car wax. LIghtly.
I also wrap with two wraps of notebook paper, then size to .314. My slug specs are the same as yours.
Works for me.
I also use full tilt loads. Start with jacketed load data. I use the minimum and it works well.

[sisiphunter]

sounds good guys, thanks forthe input....i was kinda worried about those vapours/haze because i could not get it out it just disappeared. I will try without the LLA before the patch...makes sense to me....is there any way of washing LLA off of boolits??? I cast up a whole bunch and lubed about 100 or so and hate to just melt them down. Will a water soak take care of it maybe??

Also my casting are coming out consistently sized, so I had to use LLA to lube before sizing (Lee push through sizer), I guess just size after patching???

Matt

[303Guy]

I guess just size after patching???Try an as cast, unsized patched boolit in the rifle's throat. It might fit.

[docone31]

When I size prior to casting, I use dish soap for lube.
Washes right off.

[calaloo]

Mineral spirits will dissolve the LLA.

[RBak]

When I size prior to casting, I use dish soap for lube.
Washes right off.

Did you mean to say, "prior to sizing"? I don't want to sound snotty because I think I know what you mean, but I want to be sure because I am thinking of doing something similar.

I know several folks that use dish soap on the wrap prior to final sizing and they swear by it. To hear them tell it, it somehow "helps" in separating the paper from the boolit.
I don't know of any truth in this, and I certainly don't understand the mechanics of how this would happen but, to me, it is something worth investigating just from the results I have seen with them using it.....in other words, their paper seems to always disintegrate when mine doesn't.

[docone31]

I size twice, Once prior to wrapping.
this is when I use dish soap. I size, rinse the soap off, then wrap, then use auto wax to final size.

[RBak]

I size twice, Once prior to wrapping.
this is when I use dish soap. I size, rinse the soap off, then wrap, then use auto wax to final size.

Okay! Good, got ya covered....in your first post you said "prior to casting".

Do you, in anyway, feel the use of dish soap helps with the cutting of the paper???

If I'm not mistaken here is the theory...at least as I understand it.
When the boolit is initially sized using dish soap, that same dish soap also cleans the boolit to a point where the paper patch actually "clings" to the surface better, which allows the rifling to better cut the paper because there is no give, or movement of any kind by the patch itself.

When using LLA, and not cleaning it off, after the initial sizing, the surface of the boolit remains a bit slick and causes the paper to adhere less efficiently....I think???

Does any of this make sense, or am I waaay off base in thinking this?

As I mentioned before, the couple of guys that I know who do this all swear by it, but neither they or myself can understand the underlying principle behind it.

On the other hand I am sure not one of the three of us have any clue as to how a TV, a Computer, and many other things really works, but we use them all and never worry ourselves to much about it.

Seems to me I should be doing the same thing with this dish soap thingy and just do it, but TV's, Computers, and other such just ain't reloading, and their inner workings is nowhere near as interesting....some things have to be accepted at face value. IMO.

[303Guy]

I don't know how the dishwash might effect the paper and casting but any lube that is sticky will cause the paper to adhere to the casting, even to the point of remaining attached to the boolit, whole, in the catch medium.

On the dishwash theory, it may be so but maybe the use of dishwash with presizing is coincedental in that presizing produces the proper size casting prior to patching - in other words, folks who use dishwash to presize are also doing things right. Maybe. But for sure, the dishwash will degrease the casting pretty good.

[303Guy]

So I tried the dishwash thing. I did not size the casting but I applied the dishwas then rubbed the casting then washed off the casting with my fingers. I tried dry wrapping and wet wrapping. The casting comes out cleaner and both dry and wet wrapping is different to an un-dishwashed casting but the biggets difference is with wet patching. The wet patch sticks to the casting more readily making the pick-up of the patch better. Something else happens when you use the dishwash - you degrease your fingers! I think dishwash is the way to go!

[Nobade]

I have been using something else for this that works well. Water soluble wire drawing lubricant from Home Depot. A little applied with the fingers allows castings to be sized quite a bit with little effort and the die doesn't lead up. I don't know if it is any better than dish soap, but it is easier to remove from the boolits and your fingers, and is dirt cheap.

[RBak]

Something else happens when you use the dishwash - you degrease your fingers! I think dishwash is the way to go!

"Clean" fingers when wrapping a 'clean' boolit certainly can't hurt anything, IMO.

You mentioned "The casting comes out cleaner and both dry and wet wrapping is different to an un-dishwashed casting but the biggets difference is with wet patching. The wet patch sticks to the casting more readily making the pick-up of the patch better"....Could this be the real reason the guys are raving about dish soap? Could it be they actually make a better patch without knowing why?

I'm going to patch up some 280gr .358 boolits today using dish soap. I might not get to the range until Mon or Tues but I will make 'em up today and do my best to observe everything real close.

[RBak]

Nobade, I don't exactly know the "stuff' you're referring to, although it sounds a bit like regular "cutting oil"....is it a white / milky color? Is it designed for cutting tools?

If it is used for "drawing" metal there is a good chance that is what it is. Many folks used this, or a very similar lube, for making Moose Milk for their black powder cloth patches and it is indeed good stuff for that purpose.

[djoiner]

I first size with dish wash liquid, then rinse the soap off and let dry. Boolits come out squeeky clean. Then wet wrap with tracing or computer paper. Size again with tiny bit of Johnsons paste wax. Puff of paper out the muzzle every time gun goes boom.

[RBak]

Hello all,

I've been reading up a bit all over the site, but am interested in paper patching and tried it out, but now I have some questions.

I am shooting a 303 brit in a no1 mk3 from 1909. The bore is .308", grooves, .311". I sized bullets to .309", then wrapped with 9lb onionskin then sized to .311 "...used LLA before wrapping and on pp before sizing again.

So, the round shot, using open sites and 13gr Unique about 3-4' high, well over the paper....Is this normal to get it to hit so high????....my normal metal jackets are still hitting normally..

Also I never found any paper on the range or on the burm. I looked into the bore after each shot and did not see any leading but there was a fuzzy haze in the bottom of the bore after each shot and closer to the chamber than the muzzle. It went away after about 15 seconds or if I blow into the bore. I also tried running a cleaning rod in and nothing would come out. I dont know what that was in there, but I could not get anything to come out. Anyone else ever see this????

I'm sure I will have a lot of questions here, but this is a start. Thanks, Matt

In my opinion, this has been a very informative thread, however we should get back to the original question.

I'm sure there are folks here more informed than myself, but I am going to give it try and then the other folks can jump in and give him some good answers.

On the first question....."So, the round shot, using open sites and 13gr Unique about 3-4' high, well over the paper....Is this normal to get it to hit so high????....my normal metal jackets are still hitting normally.."
My answer to that is, in my own experience, most paper patch boolits do not always impact exactly where other loads do and a sight adjustment is nearly always in order.

However, with a good sight setting, proper paper patching can be extremely accurate.

As far as not finding paper on the range...at times, I have some really fine confetti that is hard to find, even hard to see and define as paper.
Then, a lot of times, probably more often that not, I have a total lack of separation of paper from boolit, and I now believe that improper boolit preparation prior to wrapping may be the culprit.
We got off track just a bit there with the reasons dish soap may work so well, but after reading the above posts, and then this morning trying dish soap myself, with what I feel was really good results, we may have indeed answered the second part of the question.

I'm sure the other more experienced guys here have a very good explanation of what you may be experiencing and if you will bare with us, I feel confident you will get some good answers and they will have you shooting in no time.

[Nobade]

RBak, No, it's not cutting oil. It looks like gelled water. Completely clear, and very slippery. It's used by electricians for pulling wires through conduit. When it dries there doesn't seem to be anything left behind.

[sisiphunter]

Hey this is a very informative thred for me...I will try the mineral spitis to repove the LLA then try the dish soap for sizing. I cant wait to get some loaded up and try them at the range.

Thanks alot all for the responses and the new topic that this sort of turned into.

I'm sure I will have more questions later as I go.

Matt

[dualsport]

Are you guys using Lee push thru dies for both sizings? That might explain some issues I've had. Just recently got what I thought was my first good patch, using a Lyman 450 with a .308 first then a .312, with a 311284 and Saeco #315. The Saecos look good. Now I'll rub a little JPW on them and load some.

[Nobade]

Yes, Lee type sizers. I have not gotten regular lubrisizer dies to work at all with PP.

[RBak]

Yes, Lee type sizers. I have not gotten regular lubrisizer dies to work at all with PP.

Same here. In fact, I don't know of anyone that paper patches and uses their Lubrisizer.
I suspect it could be done and there are probably a few doing just that, but the push-through just seems like the ideal solution to sizing after wrapping.

[Lead pot]

I dont personally know anyone that sizes a PP bullet naked or especially patched.

[giz189]

I dont personally know anyone that sizes a PP bullet naked or especially patched.If you use GG boolits, a good many folks will size it down a few thousandths before PPing. I have done 358 and 458 diameter bullets like this with good results.

[RBak]

If you use GG boolits, a good many folks will size it down a few thousandths before PPing. I have done 358 and 458 diameter bullets like this with good results.

Exactly... I nearly always size it down, patch it back up, then size it again to get as near perfect fit as I can.

I know several folks that have true paper patch molds for everything they PP. They simply patch the boolit, then "maybe" run the boolit through the sizer one time to get a properly sized boolit.

I only own one mould that was designed as a true paper patch mould. That mould, bought as group buy here on the forum five or six years ago, throws a nice .452 with a weight of 495 grain for my 45-70. When using this mould I simply patch and forget about it, because I know it is going to end up a true .459 after patching..

Everything else requires two, sometimes three trips through as many different sizers, then a final sizing after the patch is applied.

For example; Taking the 358009 down to .3515, from .359 as cast, requires that I take it down to .356 with one sizer, then down to .3515 with another sizer, then I patch it, and run it through another .358 sizer before loading it in the case.
I have tried putting the gas check on through the .358 sizer, then patching, then running it through the .358 sizer again, but I damage more boolits / patching that way, and I loose a lot of time re-doing everything.

Maybe this is all wrong, but I have been doing it for years and it seems to work just fine....not necessarily because I want to, but because that is what it takes for me to get the best accuracy from them.

If I'm all wet on this, maybe someone can enlighten me a bit.

[dualsport]

I should have asked that question a while ago. I release the pressure on the lube in my 450 and have managed to pp a few boolits, first .308 then .312 after patch. I can see where the push thru would work a lot better. I'll have to get those Lee sizer dies right away, I may be getting this. I have several SMLEs, one with at least a .318 groove. I'll have to have buckshot hone one out for me. I'm thinking my new 316299 dbl wrapped and sized .319 just might be the magic combo. That would be great as I want that velocity. I had thought about just trying the Lee 8mm boolit, got the mold. Now that I know I'll be pping the Mausers too, and the RB, the Swede, well, everything! I like mild loads, but I need to feel some push from a full size rifle. OK, so no lube, wet the paper, maybe a bit of JPW on patch, no GCs. Oh, do all ppd boolits have to be final sized to attach the patch even if they are already at correct diameter?

[303Guy]

.... I have been doing it for years and it seems to work just fine....not necessarily because I want to, but because that is what it takes for me to get the best accuracy from them. If it aint broke, don't fix it! Ultimately, the objective is to have fun!:mrgreen::drinks:

[sisiphunter]

SO I took out some recent PP boolits, worked out horribly.

This is what I'm doin:

>.309 Lee TL 160 boolit, Lead/WW/Tin mix
>Size to .309 with Lee sizer with dishsoap lube,
>rinse and dry well,
>PP 2 wraps 9lb onionskin
>Lube with a Crisco/beeswax mix
>size to .311
>Load over 13gr Unique and reg rifle primer in a 303 brit SMLE (bore:.308"/groove:.310" as slugged)

I got no accuracy. could not hit a piece of piece of cardboard at 50yds at all....I saw the dirt fly overtop, left right, etc....and it is not the shooter, I'm not great, but not that bad. :)

I moved up to about 10yds and knew I had to hit it here. two of the three I had left keyholed the paper. I did see the 'confetti' this time out the muzzle, so a step in the right direction.

I also got horrible leading inmy barrel again. I dont know why???? I am wrapping the paper high onthe booolit, just above the ogive and well past, spinning a tail then cutting, etc. I am kinda following tips I have found on this site as well as I have read The Paper Jacket a couple of times and following that. Any help would be greatly appriciated..,...Why the bad accuracy???? and the Leading????? Wrong load???/Wrong method????bad lube????? any suggestions please ?????

[docone31]

Forget the onionskin.
Cut a strip, 1" wide by the dimensional width of the paper. Use computer printer paper, or notebook paper. You want the grain to go across the patch.
size to .309, two wraps of notebook paper, cut 1 3/8 with 45* on each end opposing each other. When dry, size to .314 in that SMELLY. You won't get notin with .311. Use minimum start load data with that load. I use around 40gns in mine.
I use just a tad of Car Wax to push it through the .314 sizer. The sizer wipes the wax clean and makes shiney wraps.
Why do people lube these patches?
The patch is the lube, like a copper jacket. You won't get **** for accuracy untill the leading gets out, and the patches remove a little leading each time. You might need to get your dies reworked for the .314, but it will be worth it. I have a designated set for my SMELLY. I couldn't load them with stock dies. If it had been .311 they would have worked.
I use a cigarette roller to roll the patches, and roll them soaking. They come out damp and tight to the casting.
With the onion skin, you got .313. At .3135, I still got 20min of Berm. At .314, I can stack them at 100yds. Sizing is real critical with PP castings.
Good luck.

[sisiphunter]

So even though my grooves measure out to .310 I want it .314 with paper on it??

How about crimp as well??? I used a moderate crimp, just so the boolit would not slip in the case.

[docone31]

No crimp. I use the Lee FCD, just barely pressing on the case. And, yeah, with the SMLE I go with .314. I thought .3135 would be a little large. It was ****. It wasn't untill I smeared valve lapping compound on the patch that I guessed at .314.
By the by, smearing valve lapping compound on the patched load was one of the quickest deleaders I have used. Made the transition smooth, cleaned up the rifleing, deleaded the bore, and made it simple to clean.
Smoooooth.

[303Guy]

Oh yes, valve lapping compound will not only clean out the lead it will clean out rust from inside deep pits! Another way to get lead out is to use Scotch Brite - it's abrasive. Fine steel wool works too bit doesn't polish the bore.


Fast powder is OK as long as the pressure is low enough not to upset the boolit in the actual throat. And no crimping. I am shooting boolits patched to .318 in my rifle. That only just fits the throat and there is precious little room in the chamber for the case neck to release the boolit. Funny thing is they didn't expand - I can reload them without resizing. But, my rifle has a well used bore! Accuracy was to die for! My load; 18.1gr AR2205/H4227 under 208gr PP HN boolits. The same load leaded up my other rifle's bore like you wouldn't believe! The patch was failing from too much pressure too soon. I use notebook paper and I dry wrap. That takes a technique to get the patches tight. Go with the cig roller and wet patches. And go with printer paper or notepad paper.

About your slugging results - .308 bore and .310 groove? Sounds like the grooves are full of some form of crud. Fire-lapping should get that out. You'll be surprized just how deep the grooves are. And that crud is rough and will strip the patch off the boolit. I have a barrel with a 'good' bore but it was rough and would not pass a patched boolit through intact. After some fire-lapping, the patch was surviving. This with low pressure loads.

Have a look at my thread "Paper Patching Problems with 303 Brit" which is still in the Black Powder Paper Patching forum. There I describe how I developed a load to get the patch to come off at the muzzle. That's the above load.

I have a 'guage' I use to test boolit fit in the throat. It's a brass rod with a mark that corresponds with the neck/shoulder of the chamber. My patched boolits must just reach that depth without force.

Keep at it! :drinks:

[sisiphunter]

ok, so next step is to lap the bore to clean all the **** out....this fire lapping you speak of....any way to do this inthe shop??? I assume get some 'valve lapping compound' and go at it with a tight patch??? I have all the brushes and such, but it is extremely slow going and I dont think I am even barely denting the problem. I've tried CR-10, CLP, kroil, etc, etc. All take some leading and other gunk, but I keep going and going and there seems to be no end. I believe there wasa post about usingthe lapping compound on the patched boolit.....any way to do this without going to the range??? Sorry so many questions, still learning quite a bit in this cast boolit/paper patch area. :) :???::???::???:

Matt

[303Guy]

I believe there wasa post about usingthe lapping compound on the patched boolit.....any way to do this without going to the range???Yes there is. It requires some form of firing tube. I just happen to have one I made and have found it real useful. I developed my last load in it. No-one knows I am firing a rifle in the middle of a suburb!:roll:

Fire-lapping means firing a specially prepaired round with abrasives, through the gun. I would tend to reserve valve lapping compound for bores that are rusted or are obviously rough and have build-up in the grooves.