lil gun

[dnepr]

found a deal on lil gun today picked up a couple cans for under $20 CDN , there is some left . i can use it in 22 hornet, 357, and 410 shotgun , I am thinking about picking up some more , is any one using this powder in cast loads ( or any other loads ) for anything I haven't mentioned . I am especially interested in the following - 250-3000, 6.5 carcano,30-06, 7.62x39, .303 british, 7.62x54R, .444 marlin , but I am curios about any other uses,

This is a big score for me , I usually have to travel 120 miles to get powder so I am usually happy just to get powder never mind scoring a deal:grin:
I also scored some 45 grain J word bullets for the hornet for about $10 per 100 , kinda tempted to pick up some more of those too , some days even a blind pig finds the truffle:lol:

[Old Goat Keeper]

dnepr I'd buy all you can get at that price! Shucks that would be a deal here in the States. The hornet bullets are good price too. You can NEVER have ot much poser and bullets in my opinion! lol

Tom who ain't sayin how much stuff he has

[Mk42gunner]

I like LILGUN in the .32 H&R Magnum, it works well with the 314-120.


Robert

[dnepr]

dnepr I'd buy all you can get at that price! Shucks that would be a deal here in the States. The hornet bullets are good price too. You can NEVER have ot much poser and bullets in my opinion! lol

Tom who ain't sayin how much stuff he has

went back and got the last 2 cans today,

[Bill*]

Curiousity....What does $20 CDN equate to in US dollars?

[grumman581]

Curiousity....What does $20 CDN equate to in US dollars?

$19.6183 according to www.xe.com...

But they also have a GST (Goods and Services Tax) which is about an additional 5% over the 8% normal sales tax, if I remember correctly...

In principle, I do not have a problem with the concept of a GST or VAT if it is used as a replacement for an income tax. Unfortunately, that is not the way that most countries use it. Instead, it is just an additional means of taxation. What the US needs to do is get rid of our income tax and then implement a strictly consumption based tax. Of course, the CPA and tax lawyer lobby in congress will not have anything to do with anything that would make our tax code simpler...

[dnepr]

for those that might be curios the excact price was $17.17 CDN per pound before taxes or 16.84 US at current exchange rates I am usually paying $32-$40 CDN for a pound of powder in my neck of the woods

[wistlepig1]

BUY bud!

[Bert2368]

The .44 magnum likes Lil' Gun, both jacketed and cast. I found I can load cast just as hot as jacketed with it in the .22 Hornet, if the lube and alloy are up to the speed.

Last lb. I bought here in MN (Wolf's Den) cost $18.95 US.

[bigdog454]

As I remember, there were some problems with early batch of Lil-gun, you may want to check the lot number.

[767Cap]

Be careful buying old lots of Lil Gun......There was a recall by Hodghon powder by lot number, otherwise a good powder

[Lloyd Smale]

I fooled with it quite a bit in the mag pistols and never got to impressed. that along with its tendency to burn out forcing cones made me about give up on it. the only place i use it anymore is in 3220, 22 hornet and 50 beowulf rifles.

[BCB]

Lloyd,

Where did you get the info about it burning out forcing cones?...

BCB

[JudgeBAC]

I tried Lill gun in .44 and .41 and was not impressed. Shoot five rounds and touch the barrel and you would swear you were grabbing hold of a marine machine gun barrel on Guadalcanal. Without a doubt this powder heats up a pistol barrel faster and hotter than any other powder I have ever used.

[Heavy lead]

I can't figure Lil Gun out. It has been excellent in the .475 for me, not excessive heat and accurate as a laser. The jury is still out on the .45 Colt heavies in the Rugers and .44 magnum. The load I had worked up with a slightly shortened .357 with the NOE 358429 for my New Vaquero felt like it was going to melt it down and the 2400 load outshot it all day long. Now oddly the full length brass .357's with the NOE 360180WFNGC with Lil Gun did not have this "overheating" effect in either the GP100 or the New Vaquero and out shot the 2400 loads with this boolit with faboulus velocity and great accuracy, maybe the gas check makes a difference, doesn't make sense, but I can't explain. I'll continue to use this powder, but will watch the temperature as it will make a difference on wear obviously.

[BCB]

Heavy lead,

I am gettin' really good accuracy with the 45LC (Blackhawk) using the 45-270-SAA (283 grains) and 20.0 grains of Lil'Gun--'bout 1160 fps chronographed...

Also good accuracy from a Security-Six with the 358429...

The next time I shoot them, I will check the barrel temperature...

BCB

[Heavy lead]

I'll have to try that load BCB, I shoot a lot of those 270 SAA's and like it, I'll give it a run. I sure like the powder in the .475 with the RCBS 400 grain boolit.

[selpaw]

I have had excellent accuracy, consistency and velocities with Lil Gun in .357 with 13.3 grains and a 195gr NEI, in 45 Colt with 20 grs and 325 gr Mountain Mould GC and in 22K-Hornet with 13gr and a 40gr V-max. No apparent problems with barrel heating up. selpaw

[Old Goat Keeper]

BCB if I remember right that information about cutting came from Freedom Arms in their revolvers.

Tom

[BCB]

Well, I have been hearin’ all about this Lil’Gun being a problem as it burns hot and can cause problems as has been indicated in this thread. Since I have never been able to hold a barrel and determine the differences in heat from one reloaded bunch of ammo as compared to another bunch of reloaded ammo (nor did I ever consider doing this!), I thought a thermometer might be a better way to go. Seems a bit more accurate to me!!!...

So, that is exactly what I did this morning. I have a little cabin in a far away area and the shooting doesn’t really bother anybody in the morning hours. I can shoot from the window as I have a ledge with sandbags for that purpose. In this environment, I can measure the temperature of the barrel at the forcing cone and shoot 6 rounds and then put the thermometer in the barrel to a designated location (tape on thermometer) and record the difference from pre-shooting to post-shooting. May not be the most controlled scientific experiment (I use that term lightly), but I think it might give an idea. Let the barrel cool down and start over again…

So, here are the results. I used 3 different powders with the 45-270-SAA boolits. The temperatures are in Celsius. And the order is Powder Charge—Start Temperature—Temperature After Shooting—Increase…


9.0 Unique…11.5°…16.5°…5.0° (9.0°F)

23.0 H-110…11.5°…20.75°…9.25° (16.65°F)

20.0 Lil’Gun…11.0°…20.0°…9.0° (16.2°F)

9.0 Unique…11.5°…17°…5.5° (9.9°)

I shot the 9.0 grain charge of Unique at the beginning and at the end just to sort of verify…
I am certain this bit of idiocy can have “holes shoot all through it” (pun intended), but in my opinion, I ain’t gonna quit shootin’ Lil’Gun...
BCB

[Charlie Sometimes]

Somebody get a helper and have them measure the temperature using an infrared laser thermometer on the barrel surface outside the chamber area, and various otehr points on the barrel after each fired round and document it. That should show something. I don't have one or I would do it.

But I think it's BS, too.

[dnepr]

Be careful buying old lots of Lil Gun......There was a recall by Hodghon powder by lot number, otherwise a good powder


checked the lot # I am good but thanks for the heads up , from what I read those lots are a little snappy ( I don't want to use the term "hot" it will just add to the confusion with lil gun ). if lil gun burns as hot as people are saying it will be my " winter powder " nothin like warming frozen fingers on a warm barrel :redneck:

[dnepr]

Somebody get a helper and have them measure the temperature using an infrared laser thermometer on the barrel surface outside the chamber area, and various otehr points on the barrel after each fired round and document it. That should show something. I don't have one or I would do it.

But I think it's BS, too.

infra-red thermoeters can have problems reading certain surfaces, shiny or reflective surfaces can give screwy readings but something with a non glare finnish of some type should work well.

[Heavy lead]

Well, I have been hearin’ all about this Lil’Gun being a problem as it burns hot and can cause problems as has been indicated in this thread. Since I have never been able to hold a barrel and determine the differences in heat from one reloaded bunch of ammo as compared to another bunch of reloaded ammo (nor did I ever consider doing this!), I thought a thermometer might be a better way to go. Seems a bit more accurate to me!!!...

So, that is exactly what I did this morning. I have a little cabin in a far away area and the shooting doesn’t really bother anybody in the morning hours. I can shoot from the window as I have a ledge with sandbags for that purpose. In this environment, I can measure the temperature of the barrel at the forcing cone and shoot 6 rounds and then put the thermometer in the barrel to a designated location (tape on thermometer) and record the difference from pre-shooting to post-shooting. May not be the most controlled scientific experiment (I use that term lightly), but I think it might give an idea. Let the barrel cool down and start over again…

So, here are the results. I used 3 different powders with the 45-270-SAA boolits. The temperatures are in Celsius. And the order is Powder Charge—Start Temperature—Temperature After Shooting—Increase…


9.0 Unique…11.5°…16.5°…5.0° (9.0°F)

23.0 H-110…11.5°…20.75°…9.25° (16.65°F)

20.0 Lil’Gun…11.0°…20.0°…9.0° (16.2°F)

9.0 Unique…11.5°…17°…5.5° (9.9°)

I shot the 9.0 grain charge of Unique at the beginning and at the end just to sort of verify…
I am certain this bit of idiocy can have “holes shoot all through it” (pun intended), but in my opinion, I ain’t gonna quit shootin’ Lil’Gun...
BCB

Interesting, I will still use Lil'Gun too, as with all powders, sometimes stuff just doesn't work in everything.

[454PB]

Thanks for sharing your results, BCB. They are about what I expected, and I have been planning to do the infrared experiment myself.

I've been reading about this supposed problem with Lil'Gun, and found it surprising. I've been using it in .44 magnum and .454 Casull for a while, and never noticed any unusual heating or forcing cone erosion. Sure, my barrels get hot. I sometimes fire several hundred rounds through my revolvers in a session, and magnum ammo makes the barrels get hot in warm weather, but I have noticed no heating difference in Lil'Gun, H-110, WW296, or WC820.

[Lloyd Smale]

why run 20 grains of lil gun and 23 of 110? the lilgun load no doubt had alot less pressure. As to where the info came from. Its a combo of three things. One is others experiences on the internet and i dont take much of any store in those. the other was from my buddy who burned the forcing cone out of his smith 29 in one summer using it and the third is from bob baker who owns Freedom Arms. He has had a rash of guns returned with burned out forcing cones and they all had one thing in common. Lots of lilgun. Bob wont even warantee a gun anymore that you shoot lilgun through. ANY BALL POWDER and that includes 110 296 aa9 wc820 ect will wear on a forcing cone faster then flake powders. Especially if your using lighter jacketed bullets but lilgun seems to do it faster.

[BCB]

Lloyd,

I was using the 23 grains of H-110 before I tried the Lil’Gun. I suspect the pressure is higher also and I am only gaining about 60 fps with 3 more grains of powder. But, the factor to not use H-110 much in this cartridge/boolit combo is the recoil difference. I am amazed at how much less the recoil is with the Lil’Gun. But, both powders have produced good accuracy with the 45-270-SAA boolit…

I agree with the credibility of info from the Net—can go either way. I have no doubt about your friend having a forcing cone issue with Lil’Gun, but I wonder how Baker could put such a warranty out there? (Or lack of one) How would he know what powder was used in the handguns unless the shooter told him?...

The one thing missing with the information that Lil’Gun burns up guns is “how many rounds does it take”? I had Ruger replace a forcing cone (maybe barrel—I don’t remember now) ‘bout 30 years ago and there certainly wasn’t any Lil’Gun around then. BUT, I did shoot that Security-Six until I have no idea how it even stayed together!!!...

My little experiment was far from accurate/scientific as I know the actual heat problem would probably be right at the forcing cone and not a bit in front of it. Yet, I assume that if there is great heat at the cone, it would show up a bit in front of the cone. My thermometer didn’t show that. I sort of expected a considerable increase in temperature but there actually was none. The H-110 got hotter…

Oh well, it will be up to the individual to make the decision. Has Hodgdon said anything, one way or the other, about this problem that seems to exist? I guess until there are some “hard scientific” facts produced by instruments other than people’s opinions or “experience”, I will continue to use Lil’Gun as it has produced fine results for me…

BCB

[bobke]

lloyd-
given your comment about the likelihood of forcing cone erosion using ball powders, what's your preference for a 'non ball' or flake powder with a similar burn rate to H110/296/etc? this is kind of interesting, as the comments in a 45 colt thread currently in play indicate that leading can/will be reduced when using H110 and cast bullets in 45 colt because of the slow push it gives a heavier bullet at lower pressures, yet you're indicating higher possibility of cone erosion at the same time. is your reference to max load type pressure and should we be less concerned with heavy cast in 45 colt(280gr and up) or 475 linebaugh(375gr and up) at reduced velocities? this is somewhat contrary to manufacturer recommendations to keep pressures up with ball powders in the H110 range or to avoid less than optimum powder volume charges-therefore keeping pressures up and introducing the possibility of erosion.

my current experience with 45 colt and bullets fit properly has been that even though velocities are higher than i'd normally want for everyday loads, H110 really did reduce leading and mitigated all problems in that regard. i've got plenty of powder options available, but curious given the above, what you recommend in a slow burning non ball powder for 900-1100fps loads in 45 colt and 475 linebaugh, as well as 44 mag. have had pretty good results with hs6 and about to jump into power pistol testing, but want to avoid the leading issues that come from some of the faster midrange powders, such as unique.

thx for your usual sage wisdom, and that of the regular suspects here.

[Charlie Sometimes]

infra-red thermoeters can have problems reading certain surfaces, shiny or reflective surfaces can give screwy readings but something with a non glare finnish of some type should work well.

Spray target areas on barrel with Sight Black- that should reduce reflectivity of the polished curved profile.

I've never found the recalled batch data anywhere, either. Someone have a link?

[Lloyd Smale]

i think the major problem with it is using jacketed bullets especially light for caliber bullets. Im sure where bob baker found the problem is in the 454. Alot of guys think there really accomplishing something when there running 250 grain jacketed bullets at ungodly velocitys out of them. Any ball powder loaded like that will be hard on forcing cones. Lil gun may be a bit worse though. If you insist on shooting jacketed or lighter bullets id go with something like 2400. I usually shoot heavy for cailber cast bullets when working up heavy hunting loads and have never seen a problem with 110 loading like that. Keep in mind too that if your gun is a gun that mostly shoots plinking loads and may shoot a 1000 heavy loads in its lifetime you probably dont have much to worry about. Me ive been know to shoot that many heavy loads in a week out of a gun. I shoot more aa9/wc820 then anything and its a ball powder and i havent noticed any problems but then its been probably 15 years since ive loaded light jacketed bullets in anything but a target gun. As to Bob im sure he found out by asking the people with the problem guns what they were shooting and his statement about waranteing them is no doubt more of a suggestion not to use it. Im sure he realizes he could never prove which powder casued it if someone was both stupid enough to still use it knowing he told them not to and dishonest enough to lie about it if it happened.

[Charlie Sometimes]

I'm surprised that they warranty the barrel after firing- no control over what goes through it.
And, most people I know would hardly notice that the forcing cone is erroding- so at what level are they complaining and asking for replacement service? They must be cleaning the H out of them to see that, and wouldn't that wear it out too? To much hypothetical or too many variables here, IMHO. :takinWiz:

If any or all of the ball powders do it, then most people should expect to replace their barrel if they shoot enough to do that much damage- it is not the manufacturers responsibility, IMHO.

Lil Gun has lower pressure for velocity- that is why I chose it for my 22 Hornet. I'll keep using it, and I shoot that one a lot. :smile:

[Lloyd Smale]

ive shot out 3 different pistol barrel forcing cones so far. One smiths and two rugers so it sure can be done. No doubt the average shooter who shoots a 100 rounds a month will probably never experience it. I too still use it in the hornet 50beowulf and 3220 rifle loads. but in all actualllity theres better powders out there for those rounds too and when this keg is gone ill probalby not buy anymore.