1911 Heresy

[XBT]

For most of my life I have favored revolvers but liking handguns of all kinds I have acquired some semi-autos as well. Most of my semi-autos are remarkably reliable, especially the Rugers and Berettas, but the 1911’s are another story.

I have owned two or three 1911’s that have been traded off (in disgust) and currently have two Colts, a 1991 Commander that is stock and a full size 1991 that has been modified with most of the more common “bells & whistles”. I like to shoot them and both are more accurate than I am but they, and all the other 1911’s I have owned, are not 100% reliable. I call them my 99% guns, because that’s about how they function.

I am using a 230 grn. round nose boolit that is very similar to hardball ammo. I am an experienced caster and reloader and am reasonably sure the problem is not with the ammo. The same loads function fine in my Ruger P-345. I don’t shoot factory ammo because of the cost.

Trying to track down the problem requires a lot of shooting because they only fail about once or twice per hundred rounds. Many (but not all) of the failures involve a cartridge that loads in front of the extractor instead of behind it, or the magazine follower jumping the slide stop causing the magazine to hang up in the empty gun. This would seem to indicate a magazine problem but I have tried magazines from three different companies without any luck. The cheap ones from Springfield Armory seem to work the best.

I also have an occasional failure to feed (rare) which can be fixed by bumping the slide home. The Commander will also throw brass in a full 180° arc and will sometimes bounce one off my bald head (hurts!). The extractor is tight and doesn’t seem to be “clocking”.

My friend and neighbor who has two 1911’s has the same luck. He has told me that 99% reliability is the standard in his experience.

I know that many people claim total reliability with their 1911’s but I’m not one of them. For now I have given up the tinkering and if I need one I can depend on I’ll take something other than a 1911.

[anachronism]

Well, your Commander needs to have the ejector tuned to keep the brass off your noggin. You can try numbering your mags, so you can tell if the problems happen with the same mag, or if there's another reason. Your other issues do sound mag related, and I specifically wonder about the feed lips in particular.

And of course, my 1911s all function fine.

[MtGun44]

The most common reloading problem for .45 ACP in 1911 platforms is no or inadequate
taper crimp. Use your dismounted barrel as a guage to set the TC. If you do not have
a TC die, get one.

I have assisted new reloaders to get IPSC ammo running in 1911s for 30 yrs and this is
one of THE most common problems. Set the seating depth so there is just a trace of
engraving on a boolit from the rifling, then set the TC so the loaded round will drop in and
go flush with the hood with no more than 1 lb finger pressure.

Bill

[spqrzilla]

With quality ammo, and good magazines, I don't think 99% reliability is acceptable myself. I've got a Colt Government that hasn't hiccup'd in thousands of rounds and at least a decade or two. And the last time it jammed that wasn't magazine or ammo, the original Model 70 style barrel bushing broke a finger. With a solid bushing, it was good to go.

I'd suggest having your 1911's checked over by someone with a good reputation with making 1911's run right.

[XBT]

anachronism,
The tension on the Commanders extractor is OK as near as I can tell. I fitted a new one on the full sized gun a while back and it works OK. The Commander’s is about the same. I thought it might be clocking, but it is tight and not moving as near as I can tell.

The mags are all new or near new and all fail occasionally. The old style sometimes jump the slide stop on the last round and the newer style with the plastic follower sometimes feeds a cartridge in front of the extractor.

MtGun44,
I am using the TC die and checking the rounds on my dismounted barrel, as you suggest. I really don’t think it’s the ammo. I am using picked up brass that has been fired a lot but I do the same in the 9MM’s with no trouble.

As I said the failures are rare and not consistent so it’s hard to track down. I have fired aprox. fifteen hundred rounds in the last month in an attempt to figure it out with no luck.

I have just never had much luck with 1911’s.

[anachronism]

Ejector, not extractor. The ejector is the thing-a-mabob that stick out over the frame. The are available in different lengths, to control when & how the case is ejected. There's a procedure for tuning them to send the ejected cases where you want them to go.

The case in front of the ejector suggests that your magazine feedlips are too far apart, causing the round to be released from the magazine too soon in the feeding cycle. If your slide stop is engaging prematurely, the stop itself may be the issue. They too can be tuned for reliability.

[lonewelder]

You are talking abou the group gripper bushing right




You are talking about the group gripper bushing right?

[HeavyMetal]

Some of your problems my be mag related and some my be ammo related.

For the follower jumping the mag release: dress down the radius portion of the mag release where it contacts the follower, it just needs a little polishing it stick out just a hair to much! You might also dress down the edge of the follower where it contacts the mag release.

.001 to long on each piece will give you a headache!

Next make up some dummy rounds with your lead "Ball" boolit and run them through the mags by hand. some times a blit design is to "fat" and the radius is in the wrong place and it rubs the slide stop. Also check for "marks" made as they feed through the gun, your looking for the obvious "what cause that mark" mark!

Check both your 1911's and see if the have the Commander ejector in them. I'm sure the Commander does!

Pull them out and throw them away!

Now install a stone stock GI issue ejector.

Next check the link on the bottom of the barrel. Way to many "gun smits" install a longer link here for absolutely no reason other than the supposed idea it will force the barrel into a "tighter" lock up in the lugs and thus shoot better!

What usually happens is the barrel over hangs the frame for a mili second and throws everything out of "time". this causes many hard to find feeding problems.

If you have any doubt at all about the length of the link buy and replace those now in both guns with stock ones Brownells can help you figure out the stock length you need.

With the gun clean and lubed it should function with no issues if the ammo is right.

[NickSS]

A 1911 should be very reliable especially with RN slugs. I have had a couple over the years that were somewhat less than reliable when new but with a little polishing and tinkering and 500 to 1000 rounds through them they turned out OK. I will say this though I love the 1911 and a good one will shoot with great reliability the average one will jam or malfunction more than some more modern designs do. I have a Ruger P90 for instance that I have put about 5000 rounds through mostly cast semi wad cutters and cast round nose slugs but a few hundred HP defensive bullets as well and to date it has never had a malfunction. I can not say the same for my 1911s.

[45 2.1]

You may not have a gun problem............. the problem might be YOU and the way you hold the gun. I've seen several people have trouble with guns that never hiccuped in thousands of rounds........ they didn't hold it quite firmly enough.

[44man]

You may not have a gun problem............. the problem might be YOU and the way you hold the gun. I've seen several people have trouble with guns that never hiccuped in thousands of rounds........ they didn't hold it quite firmly enough.
This is more of a problem then one thinks. Same as a revolver that groups poorly from different grip pressures.
I built up a super accurate 1911 for a friend and it functions perfectly until another friend shoots it. It goes full auto for 2 or 3 shots every time he pulls the trigger. We laugh at him because we can not make it happen no matter how we shoot it.
I have seen a good gun jam every shot when a skinny woman was shooting it.

[dubber123]

If you are using range pick-up brass, keep track of the headstamps on the malfunctioning rounds. A-Merc for example will make my 1911 choke almost every time. The batch I had was apparently far enough out of spec even resizing wouldn't fix it. The grip thing is a definate possibilty. I let a co-worker try my 1911, and it jammed 3 times in a mag for him. He's a 300# guy, he just can't grip it right. Bills taper crimp suggestion was my first thought, but it sounds like you've been there already.

I ran mine with RN loads to see how long before a malfunction at our plates shoot. At 3,500 rounds, I had a FTF, caused by lead build up in the top of the chamber. A 5 second scraping had it running again. I agree a decent 1911 should be 100% for at least several hundred rounds.

[HeavyMetal]

Grip can be a huge issue with the 1911 but, usually, lack of a firm grip generates the "smoke stack" type jam.

This could also be bits and pieces from every post so far, sort of tolerance stacking if you will.

If we have a long time 1911 shooter local to the OP perhaps a get together would be a good idea.

[44man]

If you are using range pick-up brass, keep track of the headstamps on the malfunctioning rounds. A-Merc for example will make my 1911 choke almost every time. The batch I had was apparently far enough out of spec even resizing wouldn't fix it. The grip thing is a definate possibilty. I let a co-worker try my 1911, and it jammed 3 times in a mag for him. He's a 300# guy, he just can't grip it right. Bills taper crimp suggestion was my first thought, but it sounds like you've been there already.

I ran mine with RN loads to see how long before a malfunction at our plates shoot. At 3,500 rounds, I had a FTF, caused by lead build up in the top of the chamber. A 5 second scraping had it running again. I agree a decent 1911 should be 100% for at least several hundred rounds.
OH BOY, stay away from A-Merk! Had some 45-70 stuff here and half would not go off. I pulled the rest and when I sized the brass every one split. This stuff is top rate JUNK.

[Jon]

I've used the A-Merc stuff and while it sizes hard, it works fine in my gun.

Regarding your 1911. It sounds like you may have at least one bad magazine. One of my magazines will hang up due to the slide not engaging on the last round.

I have a beater 1911 and I had jams when I bought it and someone had cut the recoil spring down. The other time was when the collet barrel bushing broke a finger. Other than that, it's been 100%

Hopefully we can help get yours there as well.

[Deadeye]

Try running a few hundred factory rounds thru it. If it doesn't jam then you'll know it's your reloads & visa versa.

P.S. IMHO Reloads are iffy at best in 1911s. I have tried everything mentioned in this thread & more and 99% is about the best I've been able to get. I have two S&W revolvers in .45acp that use moonclips, that I shoot my reloads in. I save my factory ammo for my 1911s.

[CJR]

XBT,

When you have your piece stripped, are there impact marks on the backside of the barrel lugs or are there marks showing the underside of the barrel is hitting the cradle in the frame? Likewise, is the edge where the ramp in the barrel meets the chamber sharp or slightly radiused?

Best regards,

CJR

[P.K.]

Next check the link on the bottom of the barrel. Way to many "gun smits" install a longer link here for absolutely no reason other than the supposed idea it will force the barrel into a "tighter" lock up in the lugs and thus shoot better!


I think that little gem right there is worth another look. The "calico" started fouling up on my dad and he handed it off to me to see if I could finger out what was wrong with it. Timing bottom line. Basicly an old link and a new barrel. I went to a new No. 1 from Wilson Combat and it couldn't have been happier. She fires everything I put through it.

[35remington]

If you see where the round's jammed, and can describe its exact location or can take a picture, there's a cause for every jam. None of them are mysterious, and once the exact location of the jam is known the proper remedy can be attempted.

If the round's getting ahead of the extractor and it never finds it way under it, often weak magazine springs are to blame. If this happens on the last shot it's definitely weak springs. Magazines that attempt to fit eight rounds in a seven shot space (eight shot flush fitting) are notorious for weak springs and last round malfunctions.

If the magazine follower is jumping the slide stop it means the slide stop shelf doesn't have enough purchase on the follower's leg to prevent it from going by, and the magazine wedges tight and resists removal. Take a look at your slide stop shelf where it bears against the follower and see how much purchase it has, and also that it's bearing against the frame and not "pushed out" away from it. Remedy may be a new slide stop.

If you are shooting ball ammo, are you using the magazines that were originally designed to work with ball?

These would be the tapered lip, late release variety.

The 1911 was originally designed to work with tapered lip magazines.....NOT the magazines that are hawked in the "blast and stab" gunzines. These allow the rear of the round to rise as it goes forward, and the path of the cartridge is less angled as it goes into the chamber.

This makes for smoother feeding, and the rim is more likely to find its way under the extractor in feeding because it's released when it's under the rim, not when it's a long ways away from it.

This is something they never tell you when they are hawking "new, improved" magazines that do not feed the 1911 the way it was meant to be fed.

Look at the accompanying photo below, showing the rounds just before their release points.

Guess which round's rim is more likely to find its way under the extractor? Guess which magazine is the smoother feeding of the two?

Hint: it ain't the McCormick on the left. Try ball magazines with ball. Ball magazines of good quality feed ball more reliably than the gamer magazines feed ANY ammo. Most jamming problems are due to either the ammo, the extractor, or the magazines. Cast lead bullets of 2 ogive ball profile, assuming the bearing surface is not too far out of the case, are usually loaded to an OAL of 1.260-1.265, and this duplicates the length of most factory ball ammo I've seen as well.

Feed the 1911 the way it was meant to be fed, and beware of the Kool-Aid. Too much Kool-Aid may make your 1911 ill.

BTW, I used to shoot in the Lincoln, NE National Guard Armory in the underground 25 meter range. If you could see the gray, worn smooth 1911's the gunny used to drag out as the "range beaters" with a chain through the triggerguard and nicks all over them digest ball through real GI magazines (not worn out gun show relics or fakes) and the thousands of rounds of ball they went through when I was there with never a jam, through a dozen mixed parts guns, you'd be a believer in 1911 reliability.

I'd put these 1911's of mixed origin, loaded with ball, against any Glock, Beretta, SIG, HK, or whatever in terms of reliability. It was the classic case of feeding the gun with the ammo it was meant to run with out of the magazines it was designed to work with. Flawless.

You gotta know what it was meant to run with and how it was meant to be fed. I'd go to war with one of those crappy looking 1911's any day, any time.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/johnnyrem/Feedlips.jpg

[358wcf]

As I get older, I've noticed that I'm stuck in a rut when it comes to handguns-
All my handguns are revolvers, and they all say Smith & Wesson on the sideplate--
Almost all are blue, but one is stainless- they are all in calibers that utilize rimmed cartridges, in 22LR, 38Spec, 357Mag, 44Spec, 45AutoRim--
They all have one thing in common- NO MATTER WHAT AMMUNITION YOU LOAD IN THEM, THEY ARE JUST PLAIN RELIABLE. PULL THE TRIGGER, AND IT WORKS AS IT SHOULD--
Yes, I've been looking long and hard at a full-target version of a 1911 in 45auto. Can't find a Gold Cup, so I was considering the Kimber or Springfield Armory offerings-
Yes, guys, this post has cured me of that wandering thought for sure! Any funds that might have been invested in a 1911 will be promptly put towards another SMITH REVOLVER!
Reliability means everything to me--
Thanks again, gents- I almost strayed-- forgive me-

358wcf [smilie=1:[smilie=1:[smilie=1:

[35remington]

No need to fear a 1911.

An understanding of what they were originally designed to do, and how they are designed to run, will put you on the path to a reliable gun.

Mine get carried when I need a handgun to work at all costs.

Revolvers may jam due to operator error, so they can't be taken for granted either!

[XBT]

Lots of good information here guys, thanks. When I get a chance I’ll try some of the stuff suggested.

[P.K.]

As I get older, I've noticed that I'm stuck in a rut when it comes to handguns-
All my handguns are revolvers, and they all say Smith & Wesson on the sideplate--
Almost all are blue, but one is stainless- they are all in calibers that utilize rimmed cartridges, in 22LR, 38Spec, 357Mag, 44Spec, 45AutoRim--
They all have one thing in common- NO MATTER WHAT AMMUNITION YOU LOAD IN THEM, THEY ARE JUST PLAIN RELIABLE. PULL THE TRIGGER, AND IT WORKS AS IT SHOULD--
Yes, I've been looking long and hard at a full-target version of a 1911 in 45auto. Can't find a Gold Cup, so I was considering the Kimber or Springfield Armory offerings-
Yes, guys, this post has cured me of that wandering thought for sure! Any funds that might have been invested in a 1911 will be promptly put towards another SMITH REVOLVER!
Reliability means everything to me--
Thanks again, gents- I almost strayed-- forgive me-

358wcf [smilie=1:[smilie=1:[smilie=1:

LOL! Everyone is entitled to one's own opinion. Go with what you want but I'll always take a 1911 with me no matter what. I love to tinker and make sure something runs right. For me it's all about the "little things." With these weapons when those are worked out you have probably THE BEST platform ever. Why else whould it have survived 100+ years and still be the most copied/used firearm in history. Besides I prefer to pack my .45 in a single stack rather than the bulge of that wheel gun.;-)