88 commission rifle groove/bore

[swheeler]

I just slugged the muzzle(twice) .3188-.3189 groove x .3095-.310 bore, caliper for bore and mic for groove diameters. Then I slugged from the chamber end, just buried the slug to end of chamber, .3213-.3215 groove X .312 bore. Looking from chamber there appears to be no throat and first 3 inches or so are pitted and rough.
About a week ago I shot 50 rounds of the 175 gr Lee cast, sized .325, 14 bhn and 15 grs of Unique, they clocked over 1700fps- kinda fast for this loading, they were seated to 2.750 " and you had to force the bolt pretty hard to close. My Lee 175 mold casts a .311+" nose and it will not enter the muzzle past start of the ogive, tried my thumb to push it in, not. Now when I load this bullet to 2.695"COAL, which puts the end of the case at the crimp groove, and close the bolt on a round, the bullet shows engraving around the full circumference, not rifling but full rub(rifling is way shallow back here for a very short ways- their throat/leade), .321 groove and .325 front band.
From what I've read here these are not dimensions normally found on most GEW88. What say ye all?

[StarMetal]

Since the original German barrels did not have .318 groove barrels and the original "S" ammo did not have a .323 dia bullet body [ just a small .323 band on a .321 body ] , so there was no "gradually" squeezing a .323 to .318 . The "S" ammo was designed that way to also work in the original .321 barrels as well as the newer .323+ barrels . The later .323 body 198 gr "Ss" ammo was not designed to work with the older G-88's .321 bores as they were out of German service by then . The Romanian 154 ammo has the same type .323 band profile [ but is longer as it has a mild steel core under the lead ] as the German "S" ammo but is loaded to lower pressure. So it is easier on the original German .321 bore barrels, and even easier on the .323+ groove barrels as the under sized bullet makes less pressure in the .323. The above rifle "should" have a .325 groove barrel [ most do BUT it could be as small as .323 ] that will even lower the pressure more. So there is no problem with the Rom ammo in a .3215 or greater groove bore. The only way to know what to use in YOUR rifle is to slug the bore and use the correct size bullet . The throat on the original barrels is long already to clear the long original .3188 dia roundnose bullet, it is 2 times longer than what is need to clear the short, pointed "S" bullet. There is no need to "squeeze" a .321 dia "S" bullet into a .3215 groove original bore. The Czech barrels are different , and can be as small as .306 land - .316 groove. They were not made to use any of the German ammo, the Czech G-88 ammo has a .316 dia bullet and is loaded to a much shorter lenght. Shooting them is a whole different story. mag

Some have Czech barrels and they run .316.5.

I would say you have a slightly tighter dimensions near the muzzle.

[swheeler]

Thanks for the reply Joe. I have read many pages of this before but was looking for people that had first hand knowledge of various barrel and chamber dimensions, I take it you don't own one. I'm sure 100 years ago these barrels could be all over the place. I did do a search and found where Beekeeper posted his slugged .318X.310 so similar to what I've got, I will pm him.

[Beekeeper]

I have 2 of the south american imports.
Both were junk when I started and have been cleaned to a fair the well and the stocks" rebuilt"
as best I could as they were quite cancerous from oil rot and blood rust.
They are now about 90% acra-glas. I hope to make new stocks for them both soon.
I intend to shoot them both first.
The bores on mine are a match to swheelers.
I have slugged them multiple times both on the action and off.
They both read .310 land and .318 groove.
I have been reading mikes since I was about 12 years old and I am quite sure that is what they read.
I have gone to several websites that talk about the 88's and am told they were originally made with a .318 bore and used a 8mmJ round that is .318.
They were later changed to the .323 8MMJS round to conform to standards set up by the German government.
Easiest way to check is to look at the stampings on the chamber .If it has a "S" stamped on it it is the .323 bore.

Many of the original .318 bore rifles were sent to South America and that is where most of the imports are comming from.


Jim

[swheeler]

Thanks Jim, thats what I wanted someone who has first hand knowledge. I too cleaned this barrel to bare metal, foul out X2, brush and solvent then couple hundred strokes of JB's, then slugged and measured. My rifle was a parts gun as all numbers are different, it does have an S on the reciever, but .310 bore and .318++ groove at muzzle. Mine also is carrying an extra pound of acraglas, I added a cheekpiece and replaced upper half of forearm so I could get decent inlet for barrel. Daughter and I shot it again yesterday, going to make a fine deer buster. Thanks for replying. Scot

[swheeler]

I really like the look of the spoon bolt handle it has! Like I say a parts gun.

[StarMetal]

Don't be so sure of yourself Scot. I had all this stuff one time or another. Here's a Turk 88 I had and sold. The groove on it was .321.

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/G071.jpg

[Bob S]

Hi Joe (et al)

I have two of the 88/35 Turks like you pictured and both are a full .323" in the grooves. The bore diameters stamped on the bolster are 7.9 (.311") and 7.91 (.3114")

I have a half dozen 88, 88/05, and one 88/14, and the groove diameters of all of these are between .320 and .3206.

For a jacketed bullet, the Speer 170 grain that is made for Winchester 32 Special works very well; it's .321" diameter. The cast above it is the old Ideal clone of the original round nose militarty bullet.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Gew%2088/M88reloadcartridges.jpg

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Beekeeper]

Most of the Turks were changed over to the .323 barrel. The ones that everyone is getting now are the ones Val Forgert from OWS brought into the states and all of the ones I have and have seen are all .318 barrels and the research I did on them (as I was told they were all .323) said they were early ones and were sent to south America by the Germans rather than do the arsenal work to refit them to .323.
The South Americans ran out of .318 ammo and ordered more from Germany and were sent .323 ammo which caused a number of explosions and dead riflemen so all of them were taken out of service and placed in a cave in what looked like horse stalls which is where Forgert and someone else found them and imported them to the states.

Jim

[Beekeeper]

I use a paper patched boolit in mine.
PP a .309 boolit out to 319 and size to .318 and it works great

Jim

[JKH]

Gew 88's started with .318" groove diameter, some were re-rifled to .323 and marked wit an S indicating conversion for th .323" spitzer round (Ss mmunition).

Some will be found that are marked with an S on the chamber area of the barrel but did not have the rifling opened to .323", but just had the throat opened up to accomodate the larger bullet.

swheeler's 88 seems to fit the latter category being that it is marked bu still has a .318 bore, if it were not marked then a safe assumption would be throat erosion but that is not the case here.

I also have used .32 special bullets for my Haenel 88 sporter with .318" bore, the jacket istyically soft enough to swag down from .320"/.321" without issue but I have a cutom push through sizer to knock the down to .318"

When I first started shooting mine there were no .32 special bullets available locally, and I did not have my die (which I also use to swag down .323" bullets) so I paper patched .308" bullets or my sporter and a Chinese comission 88 with great success.

This summer I shot the LEE 175 grain boolit in my sporter after sizing them to .320", they shot very well, I have a Karabner mold now and will be trying those boolits next.

On a different note, do any of you 88 owners have a spare stock? I want a military stock that is cut down a sporter, my Haenel is wearing a Fajen semi-inletted stock that was made for an Italian Carcano, I would like a vintage 88 stock to play with.

Jeff

[swheeler]

I use a paper patched boolit in mine.
PP a .309 boolit out to 319 and size to .318 and it works great

Jim

Jim that sounds good may have to give it a try. Scot

[swheeler]

Gew 88's started with .318" groove diameter, some were re-rifled to .323 and marked wit an S indicating conversion for th .323" spitzer round (Ss mmunition).

Some will be found that are marked with an S on the chamber area of the barrel but did not have the rifling opened to .323", but just had the throat opened up to accomodate the larger bullet.

swheeler's 88 seems to fit the latter category being that it is marked bu still has a .318 bore, if it were not marked then a safe assumption would be throat erosion but that is not the case here.

I also have used .32 special bullets for my Haenel 88 sporter with .318" bore, the jacket istyically soft enough to swag down from .320"/.321" without issue but I have a cutom push through sizer to knock the down to .318"

When I first started shooting mine there were no .32 special bullets available locally, and I did not have my die (which I also use to swag down .323" bullets) so I paper patched .308" bullets or my sporter and a Chinese comission 88 with great success.

This summer I shot the LEE 175 grain boolit in my sporter after sizing them to .320", they shot very well, I have a Karabner mold now and will be trying those boolits next.

On a different note, do any of you 88 owners have a spare stock? I want a military stock that is cut down a sporter, my Haenel is wearing a Fajen semi-inletted stock that was made for an Italian Carcano, I would like a vintage 88 stock to play with.

Jeff

No extra stock here Jeff. Wish I could have started with one not quite so hammered, guess I will learn to live with the acraglas and stain.

[Beekeeper]

swheeler,
Here a couple of pics of the 2 88 commission rifles I kept and redid for myself.
I am a lousy photographer so please don't make fun of them'
I have some new cherry wood (which was a period wood of the time) that I am going to use to make new stock next winter.


Jim

[StarMetal]

Hi Joe (et al)

I have two of the 88/35 Turks like you pictured and both are a full .323" in the grooves. The bore diameters stamped on the bolster are 7.9 (.311") and 7.91 (.3114")

I have a half dozen 88, 88/05, and one 88/14, and the groove diameters of all of these are between .320 and .3206.

For a jacketed bullet, the Speer 170 grain that is made for Winchester 32 Special works very well; it's .321" diameter. The cast above it is the old Ideal clone of the original round nose militarty bullet.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Gew%2088/M88reloadcartridges.jpg

Resp'y,
Bob S.

Hi Bob,

Yeah I use to use that 32 Special bullet. Wish I'd kept the rifle now and am thinking maybe get another one.

[jonk]

Man... both of mine have throats that will swallow even the longest bullet in my mold collection.

[Bob S]

From The German Rifle, John Walter, Arms and Armour Press, London, 1979:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Gew%2088/GEW88boreandgroove.jpg

25.4mm = 1"

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Bob S]

No turk markings, only Imperial German, all matching:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Gew%2088/Gew88_SFL.jpg

This is the clip ejector that Walter mentions:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Gew%2088/Gew88_Sclipejector.jpg

You push the button on the TG, and the empty clip pops out the top just like in the M1 rifle.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[StarMetal]

Sometimes even when the bullet doesn't get close to fitting the throat the rifle will shoot. You just have to try it. Getting the bullet to start straight into the bore when it doesn't is more difficult.

[StarMetal]

No turk markings, only Imperial German, all matching:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Gew%2088/Gew88_SFL.jpg

This is the clip ejector that Walter mentions:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Gew%2088/Gew88_Sclipejector.jpg

You push the button on the TG, and the empty clip pops out the top just like in the M1 rifle.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

Nice rifle. Appears you like those 88's Bob.

[swheeler]

swheeler,
Here a couple of pics of the 2 88 commission rifles I kept and redid for myself.
I am a lousy photographer so please don't make fun of them'
I have some new cherry wood (which was a period wood of the time) that I am going to use to make new stock next winter.


Jim

Very nice Jim. They will definately be some beauties with new cherrywood stocks.

[olgandalf]

Hi, I got to this thread via google. I'm trying to make rounds for my recently purchased gew 88. It's presumably from Ecuador. Removing barrel from shroud, i found the z in a circle that means czech. My caliper measures a fishing weight slug at .318-.310.
A web site is selling .321 gas checked cast bullets at $20 per 250. Are they ok for my rifle? I've read elsewhere that with pb you can or should go slightly over groove diameter.

[swheeler]

Ogandalf; those should be fine for you, I'm shooting .325 sized, seat them deep enough where you can just close bolt and give it a try.

[JKH]

My commision 88 sporter (Haenal) shoots the LEE 175 grain boolit quite well, I have a Karabiner mold and am going to try those next, my boy wants to use it for deer and that huge flat meplat should do a fine job.

I size mine to .321" I have a sizer with interchangeable bushings and use the .321" and a .318" bushing to size jacketed .323" slugs to size when I cant get factory, I also can size .32 special bullets down from .320" which make great hunting loads for the .318" bore 8X57 rifles.

Time to get set up for casting! The LEE 175 grain boolit shoots great, the 2 gang mold is cheap and readily available, I have shot it out of 3 of my 8mm's with very good accuracy so far, my old Turk mauser with a dark bore (but strong rifling) put 5 shots into 1 hole at 50 yards, I was able to repeatedly hit a small pumpkin that was about 4" in diameter off-hand at 50 yards, 100 yard hits on a 10" plate were not difficult, even with the incredibly small and crappy sights on that rifle!
The 215 grain Karabiner is showing great promise as well but definitely kicks up the recoil over the 175, much worse in the Turk for some reason but then again that rifle is absolute misery to shoot with ball ammo anyway but is very pleasent with the 175's.

Jeff

[olgandalf]

Thanks

[Dutchman]

My single "representative" Gewehr 1888 is from Ecuador. It has a new Czech barrel and measures .318" in the grooves. These were $100 from Southern Ohio Gun Works when they were first imported. Many were worthless junk. I bought this one from another collector so I knew was I was getting.

http://images40.fotki.com/v1261/photos/2/28344/6550810/ge02-vi.jpg

One of my cruffler friends, John van Texas, has a pretty good site on the Gewehr 1888:
http://www.texastradingpost.com/m88/

He also has a page mirrored from www.cruffler.com
http://www.texastradingpost.com/m88/commission88.html

I have a 2nd Gewehr 1888 on the way to me right now from Colorado. Its another Ecuador rifle that will be used as a "shop" rifle. I'm going to look into a LER scope mount for the Gewehr 1888. Depends on what I can do with the rear sight base.

http://images41.fotki.com/v1266/photos/2/28344/6550810/ge10-vi.jpg

Dutch

[dualsport]

This looks like a good place to ask. Where can I get a clip(clips?) for a 88? I have a chopped up 1904 Steyr Irish Mannlicher and just found out it uses the same clips as the 88. It sounds likely and then I wouldn't have a single shot.

[Beekeeper]

dualsport,
I got mine at Old Western Scrounger.E-mail dixie there and ask her if they are still available.
Be prepared they are pricy.
They also have to be tuned to work correctly.
Swede Nelsons web page has a tutorial on how to do it.


Jim

[bruce drake]

Numrich (www.e-gunparts.com) also sells the 88 Commission clips (repros - not original) for around $5 each. They are brass and work ok but like Beekeeper's comment above, they have to be tweaked a little bit for easy of extraction and insertion.

Bruce

[JKH]

anyone have a shooter 88 they want to trad for a WWII vintage Turk 98 in good shape? Doesnt have to be super nice, just solid with a shottabl bore and all parts intact.

Jeff

[SwedeNelson]

I still have some of the 8mm 247Gr. RN
2 cavity LEE moulds on hand.
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i80/swedenelson/Picture143.jpg

A great bullet for the GEW88 that needs a .321.

A SAECO #081 works great too.
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i80/swedenelson/Picture101.jpg
One of my funner rifles.

Swede Nelson

[closey]

This looks like a good place to ask. Where can I get a clip(clips?) for a 88? I have a chopped up 1904 Steyr Irish Mannlicher and just found out it uses the same clips as the 88. It sounds likely and then I wouldn't have a single shot.

I have a G88 charger spare, if you still need one PM me your address and i will drop one in the post for you.

Closey

[closey]

[QUOTE=SwedeNelson;863303]I still have some of the 8mm 247Gr. RN
2 cavity LEE moulds on hand.
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i80/swedenelson/Picture143.jpg

A great bullet for the GEW88 that needs a .321./QUOTE]

Its also a great boolit in my Kar88 :lovebooli

Closey

[olgandalf]

My .321 cast bullets are on order. I have never hand loaded. I've read that it's possible to take apart milsurp rounds with the inertia device and reload with 10% less powder. Is this feasible with the 175 grain .321 gas checked bullet?

[JKH]

olgandalf,

That is feasible with several caveats.

First is that you have no idea what power is used or its relative burning rate (other than it is probably fairly slow), so you will most likely end up with to high velocity and mucho leading.
(This method does work well though for substitutig commercal hunting bullets)

Secondly, you will still have the original primer which is corrosive, and you will have to clean the rifle thoroughly with an aqueous solution afterward to prevent rust (similar to cleaning up after black powder, WWII vintge USGI rifle bore cleaner works great!).

Other options; pull the bullet and dump the powder, substitute with a proper reduced load powder charge (such as 17 grains Alliant 2400, 10 grains Unique, 19 grains IMR 4227, etc), you will still have to deal wth the corrosive priming but will have a suitable load.

Best option is to chuck the idea and load from scratch with commercial US components (that is if you have the equipment, otherwise find a buddy who loads and get his help).

Keep us posted on you're progess.

Jeff

[olgandalf]

Thanks Jeff,
I'm used to corrosive ammo. I have a turk mauser and three mosins. I'm assuming I will shortly buy either used or new brass on Gunbroker. But I already have lots of turkish and yugo 8mm surplus and thought of trying a few. I have a friend with equipment who had me load 40 rounds from new brass, under his watchful eye. Thanks for the suggestions of other powders. And the encouragement

[olgandalf]

Gentlemen,
I finally have brass, cast bullets, press, dies, primers, a pound of IMR 4064, a set of Lee dippers, and a few other things. I'm new to realoading. When the brass is resized it falls right into the chamber, unlike unsized brass. How do I tell how deep to seat the bullet? When I made a test round (no powder, resized brass with the fired primer left in for ID) and chambered it, the bullet was pushed back so that only about 15mm was showing--the top lube groove. This is lots shorter than the historic cupro-nickel rounds given me by my seller. Thanks in advance, all the more if I've said or asked something stupid

[Beekeeper]

olgandolf,
Welcome to the GEW88 world.
The only stupid question is the one you do not ask.
GEW88's are special and a little different than the run of the mill weapon.
You did right in making the dummy round to test how far to seat the boolits.
The difference between what you got and what the factory rounds look like is due to the shape of the boolit.
Use the data that you aquired by making the dummy round.
I shoot several different types of rounds in my 88's and they are all different legnths.

Until you are sure of your weapon I recommend that you use the starting load data and check for bolt setback after a few rounds..

They are a hoot to shoot and are an eye turner at the range as very few people have ever seen one.

If you have problems come here to the forum and PM me and I will try to help[ as much as I can.]

If you want to use different powders than the 4064 any of the powders used for 8MM Mauser and its starting loads will work.


Jim

[olgandalf]

Well, I made and fired my fist round. 170 gr cast boolit .321 in czech barrel sluggrd at .318. I ignored the data on the IMR site of 41.5 gr 4064 for 170 gr copper clad in 8mm mauser. Instead I followed Lyman data posted elsewhere of 31.5-35 gr (or Lee dipper 2.2) as beginning load. Pierced 6'' of maple log in my back yard. No difficulty of bolt movement or deformity of case. Almost no recoil compared to my turk or my mosins with surplus ammo. Oh, OAL is 2.663". more later.
Thanks Beekeeper for the encouragement.

[Frank46]

Scot, how did you solve the wide barrel channel on your rifle?. From the pic I can see it but a description would better help me understand what was done. I have a gew 88-05 that uses regular stripper clips and the bore is kinda rough. I got lucky on gunbroker and found a swedish mauser small ring 8mm mauser bbl in really nice shape. Thanks, Frank

[Good Cheer]

If you got one in '76 for $35 and shipped it off to Richard Hoch for a barrel and matching mold you coulda won a lot of beer money. Uh, least that's what I heard tell.

[olgandalf]

Beekeeper (or anyone)--When I reloaded five rounds this morning, the .321 boolits kept wanting to slide down into the brass. The first round, I had to fish out with the point of a pin. The expander ball on my lyman seater die must expand too much. My solution was to back out the seater rod and turn the die in a quarter turn or less past contact. That tightned up the neck onto the boolit, but then I had to turn in the seater rod bit by bit until the boolit seated equal to my dummy round by eyesight and by checking that the OAL was 3.66 like that of the dummy. And I had to do this with every round. What am I doing wrong? Do I need to polish down the expander ball?

[olgandalf]

Yesterday I shot the 20 reloads I made. With about a third of them, the neck was blackened; with one, the whole case was black. If it is relevant, occasionally the bullet is too loosely crimped and gets pushed back into the case. This is my first attempt at reloading, so anyone one this site knows way more than I do. (My second attempt, 32S&W long for my nagant pistol, worked fine.)

[JKH]

olgandalf,

When I load for my 88 sporter I just remove the expander and size the cases without it, I then de-cap using a decapping rod from a LEE .308 handloader, this provides very good neck tension and no slipping bullets (lead or jacketed).

You could also order a new expander ball for yor dies, chuck it in a drill and spin it inside crocus cloth or some 400 to 600 grit wet/dry sand paper, and final polish with crocus cloth to mirror finish (you will need a decent micrometer and keep checking your progress till the expander is 2 to 3 thousadths of an inch under bullet diameter), if you have LEE dies they will custom make one to suit your needs for very little money and save yourself some time and hassle.

Jeff

[olgandalf]

Thanks. I have Lyman dies so I'll need to polish the expander I have.

[adrians]

here's mine ,i love it .
it slugs at .318.5 , i use an old lyman /ideal reloading tool in 32.40 and it drops ahh around a 165grn pill (no gc.) .320dia.
on a side note if you look at the stock you may see 3 brass "nail heads " ,did they used to attach things to their stock like maybe an ammo pouch ? heck i don't know .
haVE A GREAT NIGHT .ADRIANS

[aubrey16753]

This looks like a good place to ask. Where can I get a clip(clips?) for a 88? I have a chopped up 1904 Steyr Irish Mannlicher and just found out it uses the same clips as the 88. It sounds likely and then I wouldn't have a single shot.


Hi
If you are still interested in orginal 88 clips I have a few that I may part with, although not in mint condition they still work perfectly.
I would be very interested to know if you still have any of the parts left over for the 1904 Steyr that you chopped up.

Best regards
Aubrey16753

[olgandalf]

I polished my expander ball with 400 wet dry down to 321. I looked on ebay for another expander for my turk mauser in .323 and was close to bidding low on a complete used die set. Then I checked the Lyman site and bought just the ball for $4.00 plus shipping. Thanks again for the info from you guys that have been down this path many times. And I enjoy news of your various commission rifles.

[Beekeeper]

olgandalf,
When I started reloading for my 88s the guys here were adament about slugging the barrel and I did.
Both of mine slug out at .3185, one is better than the other rifling wise but both good.
I had a 8MM die set that I dedicated to the 88s and the first thing I did was wet sand the expander ball down to .317.
That gives me about 1 1/2 thousands of friction on the boolits and I use the Lee factory crimp die to just kiss the brass to give another little bit of hold.
As I only shoot Paper Patch in mine I use a .308 boolit sized to .308 and P/P with computer paper, 2 wraps, to .318/9 and touch the patch with Johnsons paste wax before running through a .318 Lee style sizing die that " Buckshot " made for me.
Accuracy is good out to 100 yards and I think could be better with proper load development.
As for brass I use reformed 30/06 brass and have no problems with it.
I form it in a RCBS forming die and trim it with a Lee trimmer and then run it through the full length resizer of the dies I dedicated to the 88'.

Let me know if I can help !
So far I have not had any problem.


Jim

[Eddie1971]

My single "representative" Gewehr 1888 is from Ecuador. It has a new Czech barrel and measures .318" in the grooves. These were $100 from Southern Ohio Gun Works when they were first imported. Many were worthless junk. I bought this one from another collector so I knew was I was getting.

http://images40.fotki.com/v1261/photos/2/28344/6550810/ge02-vi.jpg

One of my cruffler friends, John van Texas, has a pretty good site on the Gewehr 1888:
http://www.texastradingpost.com/m88/

He also has a page mirrored from www.cruffler.com
http://www.texastradingpost.com/m88/commission88.html

I have a 2nd Gewehr 1888 on the way to me right now from Colorado. Its another Ecuador rifle that will be used as a "shop" rifle. I'm going to look into a LER scope mount for the Gewehr 1888. Depends on what I can do with the rear sight base.

http://images41.fotki.com/v1266/photos/2/28344/6550810/ge10-vi.jpg

Dutch

Does yours have the S stamped on receiver?

[Dutchman]

Yes but the barrel isn't original to when it was stamped.

Dutch