Help! What am I doing wrong?

[senormik]

Hi Gents,

I've started reloading my .40-60 winchester with Pyrodex RS, and I'm having terrible luck. Hoping someone can give me a pointer or two. Firing Buffalo Arms smokeless rounds, I manage about 1.4" 5-shot groups at 25 yards, from an unsupported position. Nothing, fantastic, but proves that the barrel is okay. Firing Pyrodex RS, with the same buffalo arms bullet and a Federal 210 large rifle primer, my groups at 25 yards expand to 8 inches! Very frustrating. After the first five pyrodex shots I wiped the barrel with black powder solvent, but the groups didn't get any better.

I did not weigh the Pyrodex charge. Went by volume using a spare case as a measure. Dropped the powder through a 24" drop tube, and compressed it about 1/8 of an inch. Tried to be as consistent as possible.

Can anyone tell me what I should be doing differently?

Thanks!
Michael

[BPCR Bill]

What action are you using? Is it a lever gun or a single shot? I am a Black Powder disciple and have no use for Pyrodex. And yes, I have used it in the beginning. You say you were using Buffalo Arms smokeless rounds, did you buy these loaded from them and then tried to reload them? Is your barrel getting leaded? If you are reloading, try some different processes (like varying compression, different primers) and shoot from the bench. If you want a good idea of where the rifle is shooting, do not shoot offhand. Get a good rest, and shoot at a distance that is reasonable, like 50 to 100 yards. Provided your sights are up to the task.

Regards,
Bill

[NickSS]

What lube are you using? With pyrodex you need to use a black powder lube. If you have a smokeless lube on the bullets fouling will build up and destroy accuracy. Another thought is to check your groove diameter. Perhaps your bullets are not large enough in diameter.

[mooman76]

My guess would be with the bullet. It's the one thing you didn't mention. What bullet and alloy are you using?

[singleshotman]

I have used Pyrodex for years because black powder is hard to get here due to the fire laws that limit gun stores to 25# at a time.I guess nobody ever reads the box directions.IT MUST BE COMPRESSED A LOT-at least 3/8". 1/2" is better or it will not shoot or burn good.I discovered this by experment 20 years ago loading a 50-45 carbine, i compressed it 3/8" and boy did it shoot good.If i didnt compress it you can't hit the boardside of a barn with it.It is corrossive, but water will clean it up fine-if you use a smokeless powder solvent your bore will be ruined within 24 hours, don't ask me how i found this out.it's good stuff, it just has different rules than BP.

[SharpsShooter]

You got to help us out. Way to many unknowns. Singleshotman is the only person I have heard say they had luck with pyrocrud. Bullet fit, alloy composition, and lube could all be the source of your problem. Real black powder is available through Powder Inc. (http://www.powderinc.com/) and that eliminates the "we don't have it locally" problem.

With a few particulars we can get you going the right direction. The devil's in the details.

SS

[montana_charlie]

Firing Buffalo Arms smokeless rounds, I manage about 1.4" 5-shot groups at 25 yards, from an unsupported position.

Firing Pyrodex RS, with the same buffalo arms bullet and a Federal 210 large rifle primer, my groups at 25 yards expand to 8 inches!

Can anyone tell me what I should be doing differently?
Yes.
What you should be doing differently is load your ammunition exactly like it was loaded by Buffalo Arms.
The thing is, unless you still have one of those rounds to disassemble, you have no idea of what that load was like.

You would want to measure the ID of the case mouth, the OD of the bullet, the seating depth, and the weight of the powder charge...and you should find out what kind of powder was used.

However, since you want to shoot reloads, you need to learn some things about your rifle...things that the Buffalo Arms ammo loader just lucked out in matching.

The first thing to do is find out the dimensions inside your barrel. Then make sure your bullets are fitted correctly to that result...and that they don't get 'sized down' when you seat them in the cases.

When you have figured out how to get a bullet seated in the case in a manner that duplicates the BA ammo...or fits your rifle properly...your next step is to adjust your charge for best accuracy.

Your description of your charge leaves a lot to wonder about...

I did not weigh the Pyrodex charge. Went by volume using a spare case as a measure. Dropped the powder through a 24" drop tube, and compressed it about 1/8 of an inch. Tried to be as consistent as possible.
Did you scoop the case full of powder?
When you poured the charge through the drop tube, how much empty space did it leave at the mouth?

If you poured in a caseful, the empty space would have been (maybe) a quarter of an inch. Further compression of 1/8-inch (as you stated) would only have the bullet seated 3/8 of an inch deep.
Is that an accurate description of how it worked out?

If that is not how it happened, provide a detailed description for our Pyrodex users to work from.

CM

[Doc Highwall]

Also how did you compress the powder, with a compression die or with the bullet.

[RMulhern]

What the 'fonk' does an UNSUPPORTED POSITION prove???? When testing ammo......most folks use a SUPPORTED POSITION to rule out a lot of human error to see how the load is shooting!! Either you're awfully dense.....or you're just jerking someone's chain!!

:killingpc:groner::killingpc

[Doc Highwall]

Prove the load out with the least amount of human error. If you have a rifle with iron sights shooting off bags then the most error will be the shooters eyes and not moving and shaking. You also have to make a load that is at least half way accurate and get off the bench and shoot like you are going to use it. By that I mean don't spend all your time trying to make a better load and not learning to shoot like reading the wind sight settings etc.

[NickSS]

I personally do not like Pyrodex due to it requireing more cleaning than black powder so as not to rust your bore. However, I acquired a couple pounds of the stuff (RS) and decided to see if I could get any sort of accuracy out of it. I loaded up 50 rounds of 45-70 with a 405 gr lyman bullet over 70 gr by volume of Pyrodex. The Pyrodex almost filled the case so I put a card wad over it and compressed it with my compression die until I could seat the bullet up to the top of the last band. I then took the ammo and my Shiloh Long Range Express to the range and fired them off in 10 shot groups. I was shocked and amazed with the results. The five 10 shot groups averaged 1.5 inches. One group put all 10 rounds into the x ring of a 25 yard pistol target setup at 100 yards (I posted that target at my club and no-one has beat it yet). The largest group was just under 1 3/4 inch. AS I said I do not like the stuff but it can be made to shoot.

[hiram]

Start with a load of mild compression. Weight it. Make up 15-20 more loads choosing an equal interval of powder, i.e., 20gr, 21gr, 22gr, 23gr, etc.

Put up your target and have a the same target on the bench with you(2 targets). Shoot and draw a circle on your bench target and number it representing the shot on paper. NO SIGHT ADJUSTMENTS. Shoot all your ammo and draw and number each on the bench target. You will see a pattern of shots starting to spread and tighten up.

Take the middle load of the tight group and work with that for fine tuning.

[McLintock]

YOu didn't mention it, and nobody brought it up, so I will, did you use a wad between the bullet and powder. In these large capacity rifle cases, it'll make all the difference. Also, you said you're using the same bullet as the Buffalo arms smokeless loads, so as was brought up, maybe they had smokeless lube on them.
McLintock

[senormik]

Thanks to all of you for taking the time to help me out. Sorry if I wasn't specific enough in my original post. I'm fairly new to reloading and completely new to black powder / substitutes. My rifle is a Chaparral 1876 lever action. I'm not sure what lubricant was used on the factory Buffalo Arms smokeless powder rounds that I shot, but the bullets I used in my reloads were purchased from Buffalo Arms and I resized and reused the fired cases. The bullets I used are 210 grain, .406" in diameter, and advertised as being lubed with SPG. I did not use a wad. Through trial and error, I figured out the amount of powder needed to fill the case (through a drop tube) so that when I seated the bullet to the crimping groove the powder would be compressed about 1/8 of an inch. (I measured the depth of the bullet from the crimping groove to the base, marked the case that far down from the top, then filled the case with powder to 1/8 of an inch above the mark - hope this makes sense.) Compressed the powder by seating the bullet. I don't have a compression plug.

I was shooting from the bench, but I didn't have any sandbags or other support available. Just my elbows on the top of the bench. Often referred to as an "unsupported" position in the service. Not shooting off-hand standing. (So no, RMulhern, I'm neither dense nor pulling anyone's chain. But thanks for your helpful post.) I figured that since I was able to achieve a much smaller group with the smokeless rounds from the same position, that the problem was in the make-up of my reloads and not my shooting per se.

Sounds like the first things I should try are varying the amount of compression I'm using, measure the powder loads precisely to eliminate that variable, and perhaps use a wad. Also, I'll try to ensure I have sandbags to shoot from next time. I'll see what I can do about getting some black powder, but I wanted to use what I had on hand first. I'll also see if I can pick up a different brand of primer to play with.

Again, thanks for your suggestions. I'm all ears if anyone can offer any more pointers!

[MT Chambers]

I think you missed the most important suggestion that most touched on, get yourself some real Black Powder, then report back!!

[Lead Fred]

A guy gave me 2lbs of Pyro RS, and I shot the heck out of it. It shot the very same as holy black. Loaded the same, just smelled funny.

Compression is key, also veggie wad VS grease cookie.
I tired both, and there was a difference. I use veggie wads with smokeless now, and grease cookies with holy black. (traded the Pyro for some green dot :-)

[Boz330]

You need to slug that barrel. You said that the bullets that you reloaded were .406. Most modern 40cal barrels are .408 and you would want a bullet at least .002 larger than that or .410. With BP the bullet will slug up to the groove diameter but I don't think that Pyro will do that. That could be your problem right there. The 40cal bullets of that era were also in the 240gr to 260gr range so 210gr are a little light.

Bob

[senormik]

I'll definitely slug the bore. I guess what I'm most curious about is why it would seem to shoot fine with the exact same bullet (diameter, hardness, etc) in the original smokeless loadings, but shoot so terribly with Pyrodex? (Assuming that proper black powder lube is used on the bullets, of course). Could it be as simple as more or less compression needed to improve the consistency of the powder ignition, or does black powder (Pyrodex, in this case) effect the bullet differently than smokeless powder?

[NickSS]

Pyrodex definately has different burning characteristics than does smokeless powder. I have made loads that shot well with smokeless and really poor with black powder using exactly the same bullet. It all has to do with compression. My guess is that from what you stated that you had varying loads by a grain or two and that may have been your problem. Also a wad may make a difference. I suggest that you weigh the charge and load the same for several rounds. Also slug the bore and make sure that you have the correct bullet diameter. I am not too familiar with the 40-60 but it seams to me that a .406 dia bullet may be undersized and that due to less fouling and its affect your smokeless load may have shot better.

[SharpsShooter]

I'll definitely slug the bore. I guess what I'm most curious about is why it would seem to shoot fine with the exact same bullet (diameter, hardness, etc) in the original smokeless loadings, but shoot so terribly with Pyrodex? (Assuming that proper black powder lube is used on the bullets, of course). Could it be as simple as more or less compression needed to improve the consistency of the powder ignition, or does black powder (Pyrodex, in this case) effect the bullet differently than smokeless powder?

Smokeless and Black powder have very different pressure characteristics. You will find that Black powder is unforgiving, temperamental, finicky and incredibly addictive. The rules, so to speak are all different and the number if variables that will produce inaccuracy is mind boggling. However, I firmly believe that if you start with the basic formula, success is well within reach.

1. Slug the bore. Bullet diameter is critically important. Diameter should be +.002.

2. Prepare your cases identically. Sizing, trim length etc.

3. Weigh the charge. Weigh every charge.

4. Drop tube or compression die (your choice) I do both. Do NOT use the bullet for this item. It ruins the base and that is the steering wheel of the bullet.

5. Use a wad, it does make a difference.

6. Use a lube designed for Black Powder. I love Bullshop's NASA lube. He is a vendor on this board.

Here is some good reading that won't cost ya a cent.

BPCR Loading By Chuck Raithel (http://www.wahsatchdesperadoes.com/Intro_to_BPCR_Loading.pdf)


SS

[senormik]

I will definitely slug the bore, and will strive for more consistency. I'm thinking that this was probably a big part of my problem. I read in Mike Venturino's book "Shooting Lever Action Rifles of the Old West" that "Unlike smokeless powders, the exact amount of blackpowder used is not important. The proper amount is however much fills the case so that the bullet's base compresses it 1/16 to 1/8 of an inch." (p. 124). So I took this to mean that small variations in the charge were unimportant. Apparently I misinterpreted!

And thanks for the link to Chuck Raithel's BPCR primer. Very helpful!

[montana_charlie]

So I took this to mean that small variations in the charge were unimportant. Apparently I misinterpreted!
There are a few ways to look at it.
When comparing black and smokless, the difference caused by small variations can be important to safety.
An extra half-grain of smokeless might be enough to throw chamber pressure out of sight with one powder, and a half grain less might do something similar with a different one.

With black, a half grain won't cause any safety issues, but all accuracy gets better when consistency does.

Filling a volumetric measure (or cartridge case)...with consistency...can be a challenge.
A good way is to hold the measure motionless over a catch bowl, and pour powder into it until it overflows. Then 'card off' the excess and go from there.

To 'scoop it full' by dredging the measure through a bowlful of powder, and giving it a shake to dump the excess, pretty well ensures the charges will vary.

CM

[Old Caster]

There is a lot more to getting accuracy out of Pyrodex than there is from black powder, especially good black powder. Swiss is the easiest to use with Goex being harder. The reason behind this is because of the density. If you pour an amount of Swiss into a cartridge from any device the column height will not vary at all whether you pour slowly or quickly so the column is always the same density. If you try the same with Goex it will vary more with pour speed. Try again with Pyrodex and it will vary greatly in column height with the speed of your pour. Find out where in your case the bottom of your bullet will be when it is seated the way you want it according to whatever you are shooting. Then pour the Pyrodex in as slow and accurate as you can, trying to take about 10 seconds. Put in enough powder to be about .180 above where the base of the bullet will be. In other words you are going to compress the powder .180 Since this is very little compression you can do it with the bullet. I came up with this .180 by trying different bullets with different loads and happened to realize that the depth of compression was the common denominator to accuracy. I don't use an over the powder card because the 40/65 I use is a tapered case anyway and where the card sits it would be smaller than the case because it had to go through the front and wouldn't seal anything. I have tried it both ways and it doesn't matter. In order to load a quantity of cartridges quickly and accurately I have made myself a droptube with a small low voltage hair dryer motor attached to it with an offset weight on the shaft so it will vibrate. I installed a plastic funnel on the top with a 1/2 inch hole drilled halfway through it so I can install custom made inserts with difference size holes so the powder will go through the speed I want it to. Interestingly Pyrodex won't go through the hole unless the motor is turned on but Swiss will pour through either way. This ensures that the density of your charge is identical every time. You may have other problems with the wrong or poor quality bullets as mentioned above but If you don't make the density identical each time you will not get the best accuracy. This is why compressing powder that hasn't been poured carefully works better than not at all. All 120 volt hair dryers have a low voltage motor that is hooked up in series with the elements in the dryer to reduce the voltage rather than a transformer. If anyone wants to know how to do this let me know because it will take a bit to explain what to do since it involves diodes, voltage measurements etc. Good luck.

[RMulhern]

Hi Gents,

I've started reloading my .40-60 winchester with Pyrodex RS, and I'm having terrible luck. Hoping someone can give me a pointer or two. Firing Buffalo Arms smokeless rounds, I manage about 1.4" 5-shot groups at 25 yards, from an unsupported position. Nothing, fantastic, but proves that the barrel is okay. Firing Pyrodex RS, with the same buffalo arms bullet and a Federal 210 large rifle primer, my groups at 25 yards expand to 8 inches! Very frustrating. After the first five pyrodex shots I wiped the barrel with black powder solvent, but the groups didn't get any better.

I did not weigh the Pyrodex charge. Went by volume using a spare case as a measure. Dropped the powder through a 24" drop tube, and compressed it about 1/8 of an inch. Tried to be as consistent as possible.

Can anyone tell me what I should be doing differently?

Thanks!
Michael

Michael

"'ve started reloading my .40-60 winchester with Pyrodex RS,"

This is your biggest mistake!![smilie=1::brokenima

[senormik]

Okay, I was much more precise in loading my rounds this time, and fired from a bench rest fully-supported position, but had only marginally better success. My first nine rounds were weighed exactly (42.5gr Pyro RS) resulting in about 1/8" compression. The first shot didn't even hit the target at 25 yards. The four after that gave about a 12" pattern all over the target. Interestingly, though, the last four shots tightened up considerably, going into about 2.5". I started wondering if the rifle likes a dirty bore for some reason.

After that, I shot four rounds of 39.5 grains and four rounds of 41.5 grains, giving me less powder compression than the first batch. Groups were about 5" with each load at 25 yards. Then I wiped the bore with one wet patch and one dry patch. After that, I fired four more rounds of 42.5 grains, and then four rounds of 43.5 grains to increase the powder compression a bit, marking each shot on the target. Group size initially opened up. The last shots went into about five inches again. Frustrating.

So varying the powder compression didn't seem to make much of a difference. When I got home I cleaned the rifle and finally slugged the bore. Probably shoulda done this first, as you suggested. The largest diameter of the slug came out at .406". The groove in the slug was .399" So if I understand correctly, that translates to a barrel diameter of .406" in the grooves and .399" across the lands? The bullets I was shooting were .406" diameter. Do I need a .408" bullet to achieve any sort of accuracy? Weird thing is that the same bullet fires just fine in front of smokeless powder.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Get Rid of the Pyrodex its junk.

KW

[waksupi]

Get Rid of the Pyrodex its junk.

KW

I agree. You will not get what you are looking for with Pyrodex. It has very limited applications, in very few firearms.

[Don McDowell]

I didn't see what your bullets are lubed with but if its not a blackpowder lube thats part of your problem. Using .408 diameter bullets will help, as will using at least a .030 fiber wad between the bullet and the powder, and as has been mentioned over and over, dump the pyrodex, and either use real black or real smokeless, the junk inbetween the two real powders ain't much to brag about....

[Doc Highwall]

My opinion on pyrodex is if it was so great, why did the same company that makes it come out with 777.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

One other thing using the bullet to compress the powder< No mater what type it is> is a bad mistake.

KW
The Lunger

[singleshotman]

The persons who dislike Pyro have never used it, but you only only compressed it 1/8"? You need to compress it 1/2" to get it to work good-i'm not kidding. I discovered this by accident, but i read it in a book by Steve Frey later.

[Don McDowell]

The persons who dislike Pyro have never used it, but you only only compressed it 1/8"? You need to compress it 1/2" to get it to work good-i'm not kidding. I discovered this by accident, but i read it in a book by Steve Frey later.

Well maybe in some examples that might be so, but I'm sure glad you read about that mashing the **** out of pyrodex in a book, because alot of us figured that out 30 some odd years ago when it first came out , and we came to the conclusion it wasn't worth a ****.[smilie=b:

[waksupi]

The persons who dislike Pyro have never used it, but you only only compressed it 1/8"? You need to compress it 1/2" to get it to work good-i'm not kidding. I discovered this by accident, but i read it in a book by Steve Frey later.

I did try it. No good. No where near the performance of BP.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Tried the stuff many years ago watched one fellow shooter fail to clean again a few days latter let rifle sit in safe all winter, next spring he had a ruined Snover Barrel.

As Waksupi, said no where near the performance of real BP.


Its so funny when folks ask what are they doing wrong and are told they still continue to bogg along the same path.

KW
The Lunger

[senormik]

Not sure how trying to make what I have on hand work is "so funny". Some have certainly reported acceptable results with Pyrodex, so it must be workable. Doesn't have to be perfect, just better than 5" at 25 yards.

Nonetheless, I'm not really interested in the Pyrodex / no pyrodex argument. At this point, I'm really just trying to expand my own knowledge of loading cast bullets. If my bore is slugging .406", should a .406" diameter bullet typically work, or should the bullet be bigger than the bore's groove diameter?

Thanks.

[Muddy Creek Sam]

Not sure how trying to make what I have on hand work is "so funny". Some have certainly reported acceptable results with Pyrodex, so it must be workable. Doesn't have to be perfect, just better than 5" at 25 yards.

Nonetheless, I'm not really interested in the Pyrodex / no pyrodex argument. At this point, I'm really just trying to expand my own knowledge of loading cast bullets. If my bore is slugging .406", should a .406" diameter bullet typically work, or should the bullet be bigger than the bore's groove diameter?

Thanks.

Should be .001" over at least.

Sam :D

[Don McDowell]

Not sure how trying to make what I have on hand work is "so funny". Some have certainly reported acceptable results with Pyrodex, so it must be workable. Doesn't have to be perfect, just better than 5" at 25 yards.

Nonetheless, I'm not really interested in the Pyrodex / no pyrodex argument. At this point, I'm really just trying to expand my own knowledge of loading cast bullets. If my bore is slugging .406", should a .406" diameter bullet typically work, or should the bullet be bigger than the bore's groove diameter?

Thanks.


Funny may have been the wrong term. Sad might fit better. YOUR question about bullet size has been referred to about 1/2 dozen times already, along with some other suggestions that apparently have been ......[smilie=b:[smilie=b:

[waksupi]

Maybe we are looking at this in the wrong context.
I haven't seriously shot in long range BPCR for some years now. I go to invitationals only now, as I didn't care for the shooting line routine. Maybe you are shooting some close range rifles.
If you have a powder that won't hold 5" at it's best at 25 yards, you have absolutely no chance at 1000+ yards. It just will not work. Pyrodex is temperature sensitive, and at longer range, there is no way you could chase sights well enough to be competitive in any shoot I have attended over the years. Along with that sensitivity, the standard deviation is so out of the ball park for long range shooting, it will never shoot in the money.
I know of no one in the long range, or Schutzen game, that uses it. They like to win occasionally, or at least not be embarrassed. I feel that Mike V. would back me up on that, and our silent member #12,000, that probably holds more state and national championships than anyone else on this board.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Sad is most likely the proper term to use.

Here is the deal you asked for help you were told first off to get rid of the Pyrodex, and you need a bullet of .408 size. We took that as an honest attempmt at you wanting to learn, and accept actually helpful advice.

You, blythly ignore the advice given, and continue to plug along with stuff that is known not to work so well, and then keep expecting us to figure out a solution for your PROBLEM. This firmly puts you into a catogory that I can not use the proper term for since this is a family type board.

Rest assured, that I at least, will no longer rise to the bait, as it were, in any futile attempt to HELP you.

Good day to you,

KW
The Lunger

[senormik]

Kenny and Don,

You are absolutely right. Looking back at the older posts I do see that several folks helpfully pointed out that the bullet should be .002" over groove diameter. Part of the reason I may have had a hard time getting that to stick in my mind is that in most of the limited references I've read regarding reloading for the .40-60 WCF, the authors have talked about shooting .406" bullets. Regardless, I haven't been trying to bait anyone. Due to recent circumstances in my household, I haven't been able to give this thread the concentration it deserves. After putting it down for a couple of weeks, I didn't go back to re-read the earlier posts before I asked my question. That was unfair to those of you who have tried to help.

Because I don't have the opportunity to shoot often, and haven't been able to yet purchase the various supplies that would make my experimentation effective, I've been trying to substitute information I've gleaned from this board for my own personal experience. Clearly, that will only take me so far. I understand that I will need to get my hands on real black powder, bullets of different alloys and diameters, and wads to realize the best results. Part of our miscommunication may be that I'd just like to be able to hit a pie plate at 50 yards to start with, whereas I think most of you are proficient enough to be far far more demanding with your loading.

Partly because we can't gauge each others' body language and intonation via the internet, I'm afraid that we may be headed down an unproductive path of misunderstanding and frustration. I do want to become proficient at this skill. I realize that many of you are serious competition shooters, and I'm just getting started. I truly appreciate the help everyone has tried to offer, and I'll end this thread by again thanking everyone for your time.

Sincerely,
Michael

[RMulhern]

:killingpc:groner:[smilie=b::killingpc:groner:[smilie=b:

[montana_charlie]

I truly appreciate the help everyone has tried to offer, and I'll end this thread by again thanking everyone for your time.
If you wish to end this discussion, it's your thread...and your call. When you have collected enough goodies to proceed, perhaps the information here will get you to your goal.
If this thread does not, I hope you'll be willing to start a new one.
CM

[Lead pot]

The .406 diameter bullet is correct for the original Winchester .40-65 and a lot of other .40 caliber rifles in the past.
In the modern 40 caliber reproduction rifles have a .408 groove and a .408 diameter would be the norm for that groove diameter.
I don't think I would get any mould if your thinking about doing this with out checking out the throat and part of the bore groove diameter to be sure.
I would not go with a bullet that is .002 over groove diameter, this might give you a problem chambering a round if your brass has a thick neck wall or a tight chamber.

Kurt

[semtav]

Couple more links you might want to visit.



http://members.surfbest.net/aconitum@isp.com/BPCR%20ReLoading.html


http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/bp_cartridge_reloading_dick_trenk.htm



One line I remember from one of Mike V's books sometimes you just have to give up
Haven't had to use it yet, but if you can't hit the broad side of a barn at 25 yds, I think this would be a good time with that powder. maybe try some 5744 or 4227 while you are waiting to get into black powder.