77/22 Hornet shooting into TWO groups???!!!

[j23]

I have been trying to work up a load for my Hornet for this spring.. today, I took what I thought was a promising load (from the last range session) and wanted to see what it would do...

I shot five rounds... two landed into a group at the point of aim, touching. I was singing! The next three shot into a SEPARATE group, about three quarters of an inch in size, TWO INCHES BELOW THE ORIGINAL GROUP?!!?!

Someone wanna enlighten me here? ...bedding problems? Im lost. [smilie=b:

[bgokk]

I have been trying to work up a load for my Hornet for this spring.. today, I took what I thought was a promising load (from the last range session) and wanted to see what it would do...

I shot five rounds... two landed into a group at the point of aim, touching. I was singing! The next three shot into a SEPARATE group, about three quarters of an inch in size, TWO INCHES BELOW THE ORIGINAL GROUP?!!?!

Someone wanna enlighten me here? ...bedding problems? Im lost. [smilie=b:

Did you start with a clean/oiled barrel? I have not shot any cast boolits from small caliber rifles, just from my 45/70. In my marlin 1895 I have not seen any difference between a clean barrel and one which has been fouled.

I have read here and on the CBA forum that one should shoot fouling shots before shooting for a group. That might be the cause.
bg

This seems from what I have read to be more important with cast boolits the jwords.
However, I have a K-Hornet for which I loaded a different Jword bullet for a test and when I shot the new load at 50 yards to see where they hit in relation to my current load I could not find them on the target. (a B9 center). Moved to 25 yards and out of 5 rounds there were 3 scattered about the target. 2 of them key holes.
I went back to my old load and and the first 3 of them also key holed. The rifle then settled down and shot 5 shots that could be hidden with a dime.
The test bullets were 40 grain Sisk (very old long gone company) which a friend had given to me. Those bullets appeared to have a pure copper jacket. The bullets from my old load were 45 grain Sierra hornets. The jackets on them appeared to be normal gliding metal.
I think that the fouling from the different jacket material each effected the other.
bg

[Doc Highwall]

I had that happen with my Remington 40X in 308 Win and what I had to do was take some sand out of the front bag to make it softer and that helped but I was still getting some bounce when the gun fired. I determined the the bounce that I was still getting was from the stock so what I did to stop the bounce was to balance the gun on it's center of gravity and then pull it back 1" to 2" towards the rear and that cured it, now it shoots round groups instead of vertical stringing. Also going up or down with the powder charge can do the same thing. Another thing I would get at times was horizontal stringing and that was caused by the wear bag not being straight and at angle to the front rest.

[milkman]

I shot my .35 Whelen for the first time this year 2 days ago. first 2 shots were about 2" from the rest. This was from from a clean, oiled barrel. I would guess a small caliber would probably be more sensitive to barrel condition.
milkman

[DLCTEX]

Mind sharing the promising load?

[stubshaft]

Check your scope. I had a Leupy with a loose reticle that would 2-shoot until I got it repaired.

[doghawg]

Ditto's on the check your scope. I nearly wore out a .22/250 barrel on a Rem hvy bbl varminter a few years ago trying to get it to shoot. I rebedded the action and tried everything I knew of to eliminate the double grouping. It turned out to be loose objective lens in the Burris 12X.....

[NHlever]

Hold the forend tip, and move the barrel side to side. If you hear a squeak, or can feel a bump, remove the barreled action, and take a look at the bedding. When the barrel channel was machined they went up one side of the channel, and down the other, and that sometimes left a "bump" in the middle. I've had ultralights that moved from side to side giving the kind of groups you described, and my Hornet did at first too. The other thing that I have found with my 77/22H is that it is very sensitive to any pressure on the bags at all. I can't squeeze the rear bag for adjustment, for example, without messing up the group. I'm not sure still what causes that since my receiver is well glass bedded. Once I started shooting it with a very light touch, the groups became more consistant.

[Johnch]

I have a 77/22 hornet
I will almost bet it is you bedding
As I had the same problem

After I glassed bedded it
The problem went away

John

[Gohon]

I once owned a Ruger 77/22 Hornet. I loved the gun for how it looked, pointed and felt. Beautiful little gun but I could never get it to shoot. I could work up a load that shot well and had promise. An hour later I could shoot that same load and it would be all over the place. The problem is a sloppy two piece bolt that has a very sloppy pin holding the two halves together. Since the Hornet head spaces on the rim you never get the same lockup twice in a row. Some people make up a .004 to .005 shim and place it between the two halves and for some they claimed that worked. If you do a search on the Ruger Hornet you will find it to be about 50-50 on good shooter and lousy shooters. Seems to be pretty much a crapshoot on getting a good shooter. I finally gave up, sold mine and bought a Browning Hornet and have been happy since. There is a guy back east that makes a pretty good living fixing the Ruger bolts. I'll add his link below. He sleeves the bolt, makes a tighter pin and polishes it up.

Sorry this is not the news you want to hear but that was my experience with the Ruger Hornet. Try these links if you want to try and fix the bolt yourself.

http://www.centerfirecentral.com/rugerbolt.html

http://www.centerfirecentral.com/ruger22h.html

The guy that reworks the bolts.

http://www.ct-precision.com/


Good luck.........................

[rhead]

Fouling shots from a clean barrel? Double cavity mould? Various hardware problems?

Will a 10 or greater shot group wind up evenly split? 2 and 8, scattered ? Sometimes you can't tell from this amount of data.

[S.R.Custom]

...Double cavity mould? ...

That was my 1st thought...

[j23]

Ok, some more relevant information:

Double cavity mold, but I have used it before on two or three other rifles/calibers with no problems like this... since the last session, I weighed several of the bullets and no variations in weight exist for the most part, they are all within a grain; both molds cast identical as far as I can see.

I loaded up five rounds to see if it had potential to be a winner.. 12 grains of 1680 under a 46 grain bullet, CCI 400 small rifle primers, WInchester cases. I hate loading more than Ill need to check for potential, since it ends up sometimes wasting components.

The first two rounds shot pretty much through the same hole, at the rifles pre-set point of aim, which is one inch high at 100 yards. The other three dropped OUT of the group, striking about two inches low... however also in a little group... about 3/4" of an inch in size. I would take either group and be happy, I just dont understand the POI change.

I am going to load up ten more and try them and see what happens. If I get the same result, I am going to swap scopes, shoot ten more and see what transpires.

If it is not the scope, I MAY try bedding it. I dont know though.. I like the rifle, but at that point, its starting to become a hassle. I may just sell it. The potential for the rifle to shoot well is there, I just dont have the time to be pissing around with it all of the time. :killingpc I have a farm, with plenty of crows, groundhogs, coyotes and foxes after my veggies and chickens.. I need a gun to shoot them with, not play around with bedding, scope changes, etc. etc. Besides, the gun already has a trigger job, and breaks pretty clean around 1-1/2 to 2 pounds. I love the little gun, just wish it would shoot consistently, even if it shoots consistently BAD!

[Doc Highwall]

With little cases like the Hornet a small variation of powder means a lot also try to get cases that weigh the same for a test or as close as you can.

[Greenhorn44]

Them are Left hand reloads, and right hand reloads. Use one or the other, should clear it right up im told...:)

I had the same problem checked my case length... they were two different sizes

[Boomer Mikey]

Try using a small pistol primer, CCI or Winchester. Small rifle primers have too much energy for the Hornet pushing the bullet out of the case before the powder gets going. That changes the case volume dramatically... larger volume = lower pressure = lower POI.

Boomer

[243winxb]

Bedding or loose action screws or float the barrel.

[wistlepig1]

Ok, some more relevant information:

Double cavity mold, but I have used it before on two or three other rifles/calibers with no problems like this... since the last session, I weighed several of the bullets and no variations in weight exist for the most part, they are all within a grain; both molds cast identical as far as I can see.

I loaded up five rounds to see if it had potential to be a winner.. 12 grains of 1680 under a 46 grain bullet, CCI 400 small rifle primers, WInchester cases. I hate loading more than Ill need to check for potential, since it ends up sometimes wasting components.

The first two rounds shot pretty much through the same hole, at the rifles pre-set point of aim, which is one inch high at 100 yards. The other three dropped OUT of the group, striking about two inches low... however also in a little group... about 3/4" of an inch in size. I would take either group and be happy, I just dont understand the POI change.

I am going to load up ten more and try them and see what happens. If I get the same result, I am going to swap scopes, shoot ten more and see what transpires.

If it is not the scope, I MAY try bedding it. I dont know though.. I like the rifle, but at that point, its starting to become a hassle. I may just sell it. The potential for the rifle to shoot well is there, I just dont have the time to be pissing around with it all of the time. :killingpc I have a farm, with plenty of crows, groundhogs, coyotes and foxes after my veggies and chickens.. I need a gun to shoot them with, not play around with bedding, scope changes, etc. etc. Besides, the gun already has a trigger job, and breaks pretty clean around 1-1/2 to 2 pounds. I love the little gun, just wish it would shoot consistently, even if it shoots consistently BAD!

I know that this is a Cast Bullit site BUT have you tryed J-word bullets and did they do the same thing. If the gun shoots well then and with your vermin problem, well shoot them! I have a Hornet too and I feel your pain, I have one that loves J's but I have had nothing that wroks----so far. Man am I going to get it for this one.:lol:

[HORNET]

How's your overall length (and variation in it)? You're using a fairly moderate charge of a powder that's on the slow side for the application. I got better results with 1680 with heavier boolits. You might need to seat those boolits out so they engrave when you close the action just to bump the initial pressure up to get a consistent burn. Note: I got fairly good groups with 7.5 gr 1680 under a 225438 and a WSP primer but had LOTS of unburned powder that dumped in the action when it opened...had to carry a chamber brush.

[dagger dog]

As far as the hotter primers in the Hornet the Remington 6 1/2's are made for the Hornet, and deviations as small as .10th gr in powder weights can cause havoc in those small volume cases.

You have to remember that the original use of the Hornets case dimensions was the.22 WCF a black powder round and the powder weights were ?volumetricly? derived. Then when it was stoked with smokless a new powder had to be "made" for the Hornet (2400) just to get it to shoot right with jacketed bullets.

Ain't no wonder why this little number is so hard to get shooting well, especially if you throw in equipment Gremlins!:veryconfu

[j23]

As far as the charge weight.. with the Hornet, as well as just about any other cartridge I load for aside from volume loading the 5.56 and 45acp.. I weigh each charge. So I dont think that charge weight is going to be my problem.. I weigh each charge to eliminate that variable...

Someone mentioned case length.. I neck size the cases, and trim each to I believe 1.390" .. I may be off on the exact length as I am at work.. but each case is trimmed to the same length. Primer pockets are reamed uniform (as are all of my handloaded cases.. ) as well as deburring the flash hole.

So charge weight, case prep and bullet uniformity aside.. I am going to attempt to change up the primers... and take the advice of a couple of you to try small pistol primers.. .as I have some CCI's laying around. If that doesnt recify the situation, I am going to assume it is a GUN or SCOPE problem. *sigh*

Ill update everyone tomorrow,as I am going to try to head to the range.