Police pay

[wills]

Some police get paid pretty well.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/4011096.html

[felix]

Just plain sick. Traffic tickets. We need crime fighters, not traffic cops. We need guys to do white collar crime fighting in all levels of govt first and foremost. ... felix

[KCSO]

This is not unusual. Take Omaha PD for instance... Your retirment is an average of your last 2 or 3 years take home pay and you retire on 75% so...

Your last two years you work every overtime shift that you can put in for, I know one guy who put in 80 hrs a week average for the last year and a half. Then when your average is where you want it you pull the pin. Is this cheating??? It's not against the law and after 25 or 30 years of low pay and benefits I find it hard to be too down on someone who uses the system.

It is certianly no different that my Bro in Law who hung on in the Army till he made Major and then was gone like a shot with an extra grade in pay.

As to traffic cops, somebody has to do it. I get 4 to 5 compaints a month about internet fraud and 25 a month about somebody speeding, running stop signs ect. So I have 1 detective and 4 patrol officers and just this morning the first complaint on my desk is about... lack of traffic patrol on the lake!

[felix]

Traffic cops? Pay citizens to collect evidence and report offenders. Use recording radar guns, and have the complainers pay for them. ... felix

[Bret4207]

Take the cops off traffic enforcement and watch the deaths and stupid accidents soar. White collar crime requires years of investigation sometimes for miminal return setence/restitution-wise. You need accounts, not cops, for that type of work.

[StarMetal]

Tpr Bret,

Go over to the Autobahn in Germany and see if that holds true. Cops have nothing to do with accident prevention. it's how well the driving license training is and Germany's is far ahead of the U.S. in that department. When one learns how to drive right and safe, is better trained through their countries training program for obtaining the license, they can drive safe at high speeds also. NOBODY will ever convince me that cops ticket for our sake, it's a revenue income for the department. Lower the speed limit back years ago to 55 didn't have any impact at all on saving lives or fuel. Look where we're at now, but up to the good old speed limits.

Joe

[9.3X62AL]

My retirement amount wasn't predicated on any overtime pay--just straight time schedule. Having worked a LOT of overtime in various venues over the years, it helps to have NO LIFE if you're going to maximize income like that in cop work. Time with my kids and spouse was scarce enough without asking for overtime gigs.

[felix]

Bret, this is a hornet's nest of a topic. I have seldom met a traffic cop with eduacation past high school (it seems). Most appear to have an attitude problem, and some even want to check the trunk of ugly looking cars. In that case, I open the trunk and slam it shut immediately without giving them a chance to peek inside. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Allen,

Amen to home time. At one chemical plant I worked at I had the highest refused overtime in their history at that time. You can pay me for my work, but you can't pay me to time at home that can never be brought back.

Felix

Amen to you too sir on your views of police officers and traffic laws.

Joe

[Scrounger]

Tpr Bret,

Go over to the Autobahn in Germany and see if that holds true. Cops have nothing to do with accident prevention. it's how well the driving license training is and Germany's is far ahead of the U.S. in that department. When one learns how to drive right and safe, is better trained through their countries training program for obtaining the license, they can drive safe at high speeds also. NOBODY will ever convince me that cops ticket for our sake, it's a revenue income for the department. Lower the speed limit back years ago to 55 didn't have any impact at all on saving lives or fuel. Look where we're at now, but up to the good old speed limits.

Joe

I agree 1000 per cent that it is revenue harvesting and nothing else, but it does not go to the police departments, it is used to support our grossly overgrown court system.

[Scrounger]

I imagine some of us would define high wages a little different than others. In Southern California, as near as an outsider like myself could find out, starting pay for police (and fireman) was almost $40,000 a year, not counting overtime. And it goes up. There was a big scandel over some fireman making over $100,000 a year with overtime. There was never any shortage of applicants for the jobs. And oddly enough there were quite a few instances of family members working on the same department. Once when Orange County announced taking applications for the fire department, over 15,000 people lined up at Anaheim Stadium! Yes, there are CEOs making millions, and lots of executives and salesmen making six figure income, but $40,000 is still a lot of money in my book, a lot more than I ever made and probably more than 90% of the people working today make. Back to the safety aspect: I certainly believe we would have a lot more accidents and problems if the police did not enforce traffic rules. There are a lot of stupid/nasty people out there. But I think the fines don't fall fairly across the board. A violation, even a minor one, is devestating to a man with a family, making $10 an hour. Many at that pay level can't even afford the insurance he is supposed to carry. A fine or two can easily result in loss of his car, even his job. On the other hand, a $300 fine is pocket change to someone making $80,000 a year and up. He really has little fear of traffic laws. I would much rather see a much smaller fine for low income people and jail time or much higher fines for the ones who have larger incomes. Never happen, of course. Sorry for the long sermon.

[felix]

Scrounger, I hear ya', but your suggestion is unconstitutional, just like a graduated income tax. Take my guns away because I might hurt someone? That is how I feel about traffic laws. It is indeed unfortunate that we have to hurt somebody first to be "lawed" upon, but that is the way I read the constitution.

I called in the fire chief when I was in Houston living in an apartment. It took him several weeks to make it to my place, but he did come. I had him place his fingers over the wall sockets that were exceedingly warm. His comment was the place had to burn down before he could have the wiring fixed. ... felix

[KCSO]

Hey
Drive at or under the speed limit and you will NEVER get to meet a traffic cop. Yes it is revenue, yes better drivers education would help, no the traffic cop will never go away.

[felix]

I have been picked up TWICE for driving too slow! Once in Houston and once in Arkoma (OK). The *******s think the driver is drunk! I even took the Houston cop to my house about a half mile away, and showed him that I could drive fast and safely there. He just blinked his lights, and went on after seeing me go into the door. This is just being obnoxious, pure and simple. ... felix

[Buckshot]

................Base pay and overtime. If the officer legitimately worked the overtime he should be paid for it. Fraud in overtime payments should be delt with as if a theft, which is what it is. It also points to lack of supervisorial oversight. An overtime request form should be submitted by the administrator/official requesting it.

I will have to assume that many departments schedule the overtime due to lack of personel, or situational issues. My son in law is a deputy with San Bernardino county and my daughter is a forensics tech with the city of San Bernardino. As a matter of course, court appearances HAVE to take place on their day off, so is paid as overtime.

In my daughter's situation, while working a crime scene if her shift ends she has to remain until the next shift checks in at the station, and then has to proceed to the site. Then the on scene investigator has to spend time turning it over to the next shift. If another crime scene happens while at the first, the next shift will be called in early if possible (overtime). No relief for the 1st investigator (overtime) and etc, etc, for any number of scenarios.

Also, so long as a forensics person is working a scene, an officer must also be in site (overtime).

The county crime scene investigators work differently. They cannot leave the scene regardless how long it takes until it is fully processed. If it takes a day they're there all day. Their trucks have cots as they may be on the job 3-4 days at a time. NO ONE else can work the scene. If the investigator has to sleep, the entire site is locked down until the investigator wakes up.

A portion of thier monthly shift is an 'on call' period. While they work a scheduled shift in that period, they may also be called back. Even if they'd just finished up 26 hours and were on the way home, they have to respond if needed for a new scene. My daughter says it's not unusual for them to make 100 grand with overtime.

....................Buckshot

[felix]

Your daughter, Rick, is being a good cop and one I don't mind paying as a taxpayer. ... felix

[swheeler]

Every time I have dealings with a traffic cop, I think of the old "rectum stretcher joke" what do you do with a six foot A-- hole- seems to ring true, so true.

[waksupi]

Hey
Drive at or under the speed limit and you will NEVER get to meet a traffic cop. Yes it is revenue, yes better drivers education would help, no the traffic cop will never go away.

Yep, I agree. I've only had one traffic stop in thirty years., This was in Idaho, coming back from the Spokane gun show a couple years ago. Sunday afternoon, driving by Wallace, Id., in an unactive construction zone. Speed limit sign was towed into the barrow pit, turned sideways. No workers, no cones, nothing, except a patrol man. Ticketed me, and cost $80. I would have had to return to Idaho to fight it, and they had on the ticket, that you could not have a jury trial. So something tells me they have screwed a fair amount of people doing the same thing in that area. I've not been back to Idaho since, and don't see crossing it again. Screw them. They must not need my money, a fair amount of which I used to spend in the state.

[onceabull]

Waksupi, the really" great"thing about traffic enforcement in Shoshone County is how well the enforcers are trained to avoid local license plates. Out of Staters and Idaho "flatlanders",beware ..:twisted: Onceabull

[Bret4207]

I got called away earlier and couldn't finish my post. I agree that a guy pulling down as much as he can in the last 2-3 years, as we have to do to up our retirement, seems wrong in one sense. In the other, if the guy is making good arrests then whats the beef? All our OT has to be approved by a Sgt or Officer, if not the Major, so it should all be legit. Maybe he abused it, who knows? As for the revenue aspect, I have no input on that, it's the court system and legislature that decides that. I've seen a lot of "poor" people driving nicer cars than mine, living in nicer houses, sending their kids to college without a problem. How? They cheat like crazy on taxes, on the sytem, they steal, sell drugs, whatever, however they can. They take, take, take. Label them welfare bums, drug dealers, frauds, it makes no difference. I don't see a big outcry against them, but they don't hand out tickets. I've been told I'm lucky. Yes, I am. I'm lucky I kept my nose clean, graduated High School ( sorry uncle Felix, no college for me, too dumb I guess), went in the Corps, kept my nose clean there, took repeated competative exams over 4 years while I worked in lumber yards, paving, selling logging equipment, in a gunshop, passed the background check and character reference checks, made it through a 6 month academy with law shool level courses and maintained a 90 avereage and then made it through probation. I took the time and trouble to get a good paying job, for this area at least. I started out at $17,000.00 a year. Now I make a much better wage due to our Gov. finally signing a binding arbitration bill, which brough our salaries up to scale with other full service police departments around the country. So now I make a good wage. Sometimes I'm paid far more than I should be, other times there isn't enough money in the world to compensate me for the crap I go through. It evens out. So if I go out in my last 3 years and try to maximize my retirement I should somehow be considered in the wrong? Would any man or woman here refuse to better their situation by doing more work if it meant a little better life in a few years? Step forward and tell us all you would and tell us how much a guy should retire at. Please, I'd love to know.

As for traffic just being a revenue machine- please! Let the word get out that there are no more traffic cops out there, (like me in a sense), and watch the bodies pile up. Yes, Germany has a different system. They also have a much different driver training system and very serious penalties for violations, much heavier than we do. It isn't necessarily better, just different. I doubt many of us would desire the rest of the crap that goes with life in modern Germany, but Joe I'll chip in for your boat fare when you leave. And, as was mentioned, the ticket fine $$$ don't go to the law enforcement agency, they go into the general fund and the Muncipalitys coffers. If I got a cut I'd be writing a LOT more tickets! IIRC the 55 mph DID cut fatalities and save fuel right off the bat, but things changed through the years and public opinion went for the higher speeds even though the Federal money was lost when the 55MPH limit went in that State. In NY the speed limit is still 55 except on some of the Interstates.

Citizens with recording radar guns!?!? And what court would accept the word of an untrained radar operator with no training in Vehicle and Traffic Law, Rules of Evidence, Supporting Depostitions, proper mantainence of the radar unit with the associated supporting documentation, etc, etc, etc? It would be laughed out of court! Plus, speeding is only a small part of traffic enforcement- what citizen is going to investigate the accidents, wrestle with the 6'4" drunk, get Dad to put Jr. in his car seat, fill out the reports that let the DMV know that Aunt Ida is really a little too senile to be driving, and take care of the thousand other V+T jobs like chasing the kids on 4 wheelers and snowmobiles or watching the school zone that gets speed complaints? We can use all the help we can get, but we have to be a little reasonable about how we do things. We didn't have any "citizens" helping put your rockets into space back in the day did we Felix? No. Why? Training. I mean no disrepect to you Felix, you're a sharp cookie and I have nothing but respect for you. It's a nice idea, but unworkable.

Look, I'm not blind to the problems. I know no one likes getting caught. I've gotten tickets, it sucks. And some guys out there are about as tactfull as a facefull of knuckles. Oddly enough you can complain about them and it sometimes gets results. But you guys are the same people who, for instance, want the drug runners pulled over. Traffic infractions are the probable cause for a lot of good arrests. Without SOMEBODY watching the streets and the million and one morons driving with their head up their butt there would be no rules, and we all would suffer for it. We all worry enough about our wives and kids and friends going from point A to point B without the added stress of no traffic cops trying to keep things in order. Now if you all want to start a campaign to get more criminal investigation type cops out there, I'm right there with you. But step back and looka t the whole picture. Traffic laws, game laws, tax laws. We all hate 'em and we all need 'em.

Oh, I'm only about 5'10" so I don't know if I can make it into the "rectum" sqaud.

[StarMetal]

Tpr Bret,

Hey, the way things are going in this country I might have to go to Germany. Can you swing for a plane ticket? ....I had enough of ships in the Navy. By the way Arizona just passed a new law today that the defendant in a self defense situation (where he kills the other person legally defending himself) now has to do proof of burden. From the news says this means alot of murderers will get off scott free. That plus Supreme Court ruled today the terrorists prisoners hae rights and the Govt has to close down the Hotel Gitmo. See, like I said the country is going down the tube.

Hey don't believe or thinks I hate police officers because there are/were alot of them in my family and one first cousin was a federal judge, and got a flew of nephews and cousins that are lawyers.

They had a thing on the History Channel about the AutoBahn and it was stated that very few Americans would be able to drive it safely. They do have an intensive drivers education program over there and the license fee is very high compared to here. I have a Frankfurt friend that drives the Autobahn in his 73 or 74 Z28 Camaro that I provided parts for from clean over here in the good old U. S. of A. He loves dusting Porches and Mercedes with his Detroit iron.

Keep up the good policing service and I'd never be as disrepectful to use that rectum joke on you or any other police officer.

Joe

[swheeler]

5-10 will do

[Bret4207]

And how tall are you? It works both ways.

[swheeler]

funny, ha-ha-ha I don't even like donuts!

[felix]

Yep, I'm 5-10 on the nose, at 190, with extended and sore gut. Bret, you are definitely more qualified than I to do your job. As you can see, I don't have the proper gut(s) to handle the situations which are highly possible. My equivalent circumstance would be something like "Houston, we have a problem." ... felix

[Bret4207]

Guys, I have no beef with any of you. I was just trying to add a little perspective. Like I said, I know tickets stink. Nobody likes to get caught. But.... where would we be with no oversight?

Donuts! Ah, donuts. Thats the one problem with the Atkins diet. I get the occasional craving for some nice, soft, warm, sweet pastries! I wish I was one of those guys who can eat all they want and never gain an ounce and have the heart condition of a 17 year old track star. Alas and alon, 'twas not in my stars. At least I won't retire or expire as fat a slob as I once was. As an aside I found my self losing a pound a day for the first 2 weeks the foster kids were here. Atkins and foster kids. A sure way to drop 15 pounds QUICK!

Uncle Felix, and I only adorn a select few with the honorary, again, I meant no insult. In fact I was very surprised you got as wound up about the whole thing as you did. First time I recall you getting THAT worked up. Recalling some of the places you worked I wouldn't even qualify for the janitors job. I'll bet even the security guards had degrees in molten plasma physics or statistics or some other witchcraft like skill I couldn't even begin to fathom. My slide rule, (remember them?), didn't get much use if you follow my drift. I'm just happy knowing there's guys like you who can understand some of what happens inside a case at ignition that are willing to point out the obivous to morons like me. It would be nice to come up with a solution that would make everyone happy.

So where are the guys who were going to advise me as to how much I should retire at? So far my PM's are all saying "Get every penny you can, you'll need it later" or something like that. I retire at 50% no matter how long I work over 20 years and no COLA till I'm 65. Would you take less if you could get a little more for honest work? Did I miss the guys who were going to take less? Huh. Well, maybe it was emotion talking and not practical thinking. I think I've done that here a few times too.

And, no Joe. It's a tramp steamer, steerage class, registered out of Cuba or you gotta stay and quit going on about the Autoban. Somehow I doubt thats the cruise Mrs. Starmetal had in mind.

[StarMetal]

Anymore I'd be afraid to leave the country. I know the Mrs sure doesn't want too. She's happy with going to beach here in the states.

Hey I've been to Gitmo alot in the Navy. That's where we went to play war games. Most miserable place I've been to date. The heat and humidity alone will just about kill you. They told us about the base. Said this is the U.S. Navy inside this chainlink face, that's Castro's Cuba outside the fence. You cross that fence we shoot you in the back and the Cubans shoot you in the chest. Just to make sure nobody left the base.

I did my Autobahning days here in the states in my younger days. Remember I grew up in the muscle car era...the big block Chevies, the Mopar 426 Hemi's , Ford's 427's, 28's, and 29's. Back then they didn't have the drag racing on state highways laws. Only think the good old Pa Troopers could get us for was stopping on an interstate hwy. I never got caught of course. I had my share of tickets though. Now I can't remember the last time I've gotten a ticket but it's been a very very long time ago. I folllow the rules and my passengers fasten their seatbelts and they don't throw stuff out the windows. God I hate how people do that.

Joe