12 ga paradox help ! Slug or RB loads.

[nitro450exp]

Hello,

This is the setup !
12ga 2 3/4" SXS Remington SPR220.
Sights added ( 1/4 rib with Dakota express sight, front base with Marbles bead )
Colonial extended rifled choke tubes 0.730 groove diameter.

I want to try RB but know nothing about shottie loading.
I assume a 0.730 ~ 0.732 RB or slug is what I want.
I want to use Magtech brass and crimp using RCBS Comboy dies.
I plan to use 11 ga wads and cards.
I also want to try Dixie slugs.

Any advice would be appreciated !

Here are a few questions.
Will the dixie slug fit in the magtech brass ?
Is my slug and RB size correct ? ( 0.002 interference with choke )
Has anyone used Colonial tubes with RB and slugs ?

Thanks in advance.

Nitro450exp

[longbow]

Well, I can't answer many of your questions ~ at least completely but...

I have used 0.735" round ball quite successfully in a smoothbore with 0.729" bore. It seems a lot oversize but before loading any I used a dowel and mallet to get a "feel" for how much effort it takes to swage a ball by 0.006" to fit the bore. The answer was - not much. 0.006" off the equator of a ball is not much meat.

I figure it takes more pressure to rifle a full bore slug as it does to swage a few thou off a ball. Just opinion without a pressure test but I am betting that is right.

I have also shot the same loads in a Remington 870 rifled bore with 0.727" groove so the ball was much oversize but again, no problems or pressure signs and recovered balls showed a nicely rifled "belt".

Having said that, you probably wouldn't go wrong using 0.732" or so as long as your bore is at least as large as the groove diameter of the choke tubes. It likely wouldn't do accuracy any good to be shooting slugs/balls through a 0.728" or 0.729" bore then into a choke tube at 0.730".

There are some posts on this forum by Adam64 where he has documented 0.735" round ball loads through a rifled choke tube. He was getting pretty good success. You will find them if you do a search.

FWIW

Longbow

[nitro450exp]

Thanks
I will do a search.

I have requested some dixie slugs and will use them to check the soothbore,
I am hoping they slide freely or with little resistance down the smooth bore portion and only engrave when they get to the choke.
The dixie slug has several band and are hard cast, so I do not want too much engraving / rifeling action.

I will get some 0.735 RB and do the same test, I agree the engraving aroung the equator of the RB, should be OK with 0.005 interference.
Any Ideas on who sells 0.735 RB already cast ?
I have no time to cast at this stage in my life.

Regards
Nitro450exp

[45 2.1]

Ross Seyfried did an article on an original paradox rifled shotgun useing the original mold and tools. From that he found that all his previous experiments were flawed. He had been useing oversize slugs. What he found was that he had to use a 0.001" or so undersize to bore slug to get the accuracy out of it. Keep in mind here that the original paradox shotguns had a rifled section at the guns muzzle much like the rifled choke tubes available now.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Greetings 45 2.1 your post above reminded me of my childhood days. I used to have a Diana mod. 1 pellet gun in .177 cal and it was not very accurate so I use to push the pellet into the barrel a bit ( say 1/8 to 1/4 inch ) to make it a tiny bit undersize enough that it would shoot very accurately! I think I got a little higher velocity doing it this way also.
Ajay
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[45 2.1]

Greetings 45 2.1 your post above reminded me of my childhood days. I used to have a Diana mod. 1 pellet gun in .177 cal and it was not very accurate so I use to push the pellet into the barrel a bit ( say 1/8 to 1/4 inch ) to make it a tiny bit undersize enough that it would shoot very accurately! I think I got a little higher velocity doing it this way also.
Ajay
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com (http://www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com)

[smilie=s: Ajay............... Most of the time it is the little things we do that determine if things work out or not.

[longbow]

Track Of the Wolf has 0.735" round balls but pure lead so maybe not the best. You could certainly try them to see. The worst that would happen is leading and bad accuracy.

Not sure if anyone else sells hard alloy balls or not.

If you are interested, Track Of The Wolf is here:

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/TableList.aspx?catID=2&subID=25&styleID=58&PageSize=25&Page=3

If you try the pure lead balls I would recommend either tumble lubing the ball or using a lubed wad under it.

I got my best accuracy with a stack of hard card wads over a plastic gas seal. A scoop of cornmeal or shotbuffer under the ball helps cushion it too.

Longbow

[Dixie Slugs]

Most of the present rifled barrels run .727" in the grooves and a .730" Hard cast slug is correct with a .003" compression.
Ross also found the there was a different land/groove in those guns designed for paper vs brass hulls. In fact he stated, from his tests, that only about 10% were designed from brass hulls.
The problem with these modern fast twists are they are too fast for most ball use unless the ball is somewhat oversize.
As for the ball/bullet being undersize and upsetting into the land/groove....Ross was using a pure lead bullet!
Another problem with smoothbore is the fact that the bore diameters are all over the board as far as size is concerned!It appears that only Remington and Winchester still have the standard .729"/730" barrels.
I am not taking anything away from Ross....but most of his tests have been with original guns.
We have made/tested some real balls guns that the bore and the ball were exact.....and fired a vey hard alloy hard cast heat treated ball.
We had to remove the Dixie Tusker from the market due to hobbyist trying to make it work in undersize, oversize, and choked smoothbore barrels.
You will never be able to duplicate the originals unless you design the same as they were designed.
Regards, James

[Greg5278]

Nitro, I have a 2 band slug that might work for you. It is 580gr in the stuby version, and 690gr in an extended version. It is hollow base to be like a truncated cone foster design. The Metplat is large, about .500" It would probably be the best bet for accuracy. Round balls don't have much bearing area for engagement in the modern rifled choke tubes. The traditional Paradox guns had deep rifling, of .012" per side for a total of .024" enagagement. Modern rifling depth is more like .004-.005" Those shallow grooves aren't going to give much grab on the ball, even a hardened one. According to Ross Seyfried's old article, the twist rates ont he modern guns were way too fast. The fastest twist he could find in the 12 bore rifles, not Paradox guns was 1 in 60". He tested a 1000 gr conical and it was better in that twist, than a modern 1in 34"

The slugs I have been shooting are fins in fully rifled modern barrels of 1 in 28" twist. The only stabilization problems I have encountered are with undersize round balls in wads.
Greg

[nitro450exp]

Hello All,

James,
I recieved the samples you sent me, Thanks
I tried to push a slug into the barrel from the chamber side, seemed very tight.
I tapped one into the rifled choke and like seating an oversized ball in a muzzle loader, I got the half moon lead trimmings.
Looks like the bore on the smoothbore is 0.729" or less, the choke measures at 0.730" to the grooves.
I think I will pass on these, the weight and therefore recoil of the 1 3/4 oz. will be significant, also I am worried about shooting the rib loose on a SXS if the slugs are too tight, as well as other dangers.

I have requested some RB samples hard and soft, at 0.735 " the chokes have a 1:36" twist it hope they will stabelize at 0.005 ~ 0.006 engraving.
I am planning to use IMR 800-X with the balls.

I also have some slugs in 1 1/4 oz and 1 3/8 oz hard and soft coming.
They are similar in design to the dixie but not made from hardened alloy.
They also have hollow base to reduce the weight.
They are stated as being 0.730", they will be here today.
I will check them in the choke tubes and chamber tonight.

I have ordered my brass and cards and wads ( 11 ga )
I would like to use IMR powder since I have a supply of 700-X and 800-X.
I will look through my DGJ and see if I can find the article also G.Wrights book has some paradox info.
Obviously this is not an old paradox just the concept using modern chokes.
I also only have 20" barrels.

Thanks for input so far, please keep it coming.

Regards

[Greg5278]

The standard Paradox load was 750 grains at around 1200 FPS. The recoil on that isn't too bad. If you go shooting the round balls at 1500+ FPS you won't like the recoil.
A good point to make is the amount of bearing surface on the projectile. A round ball has a minimum surface to good contact. Accuracy is not likely to be good with the fast twist and shallow rifling. The longer bearing surface of a heavy concical stands a better chance and being stabilized by the choke.
I wouldn't worry about the bullets being too hard, greatly oversize would be more of a concern. The choke is going to shave lead if you puch the slug in the muzzle side, the other side should have an angle to allow the bullet to swage into it.
Greg

[RMc]

Don't forget that rifled choke tubes self-tighten when the shotgun is fired. The torque generated by a full bore hard cast slug may overtighten a rifled choke tube.

[Greg5278]

I did forget to mention that Ralph. Defintely use some Never-seez on the threads. That will hopefully keep the tube rom becoming a permanent fixture in the barrel. Another convern is ring bulging a portion of the tube. I think some peopl have experienced that already.
Greg

[nitro450exp]

Hello,

When you mention "ring bulging the tube" are you reffering to the barrel as the "tube" or the actual choke tube ?
I will lube the threads and since these are extended tubes they have a shoulder,
hopefully this will help them from over torqueing.
The shoulder should stop them from srewing them selves in too deep.

I still am having trouble getting my head around shooting a hard cast 0.730" slug down a 0.727" ~ 0.729" thin walled SXS barrel.
James mentions this as being OK, but I would imagine most of his tests were done on semi's of pumps with singe barrels, with or without ribs ?

Thanks for input so far, I will let you know my results, assuming I still have all my digits to type :veryconfu :razz:

Regards

[Dixie Slugs]

Let's see if I can address this post with some reason. First of all. I have said on many occasions the the .730" diameter slug was correct for a rifled barrel with .727" grooves...period! When it came to smoothbore barrels. I stated that there must be a slip fit in whatever the diameter of the bore was....period!
Many years ago when Dixie was just starting, we did extensivw tests on various designs. Based in H&H's actual loada we found the following:
(1) Their first Paradix load was a blackpowder load with a 730'750 gr bullet at 1000'/"
(2) They then up dated the load. usng Codite powder, to 1200'/"
(3) They then added loads for fully rifled barrels using the same bullet
Now....R0SS did some outstanding work on original guns and found there was two types....one designed for paper hulls and one for thin brass huils. The barrels for the thinner brass hulls had a groove diameter that ran about .745". He also tested and discuused original Ball guns. All of these had a slow ball twist and the solids were squared in the rifles barrels and Paradox guns
We seem to have to go over all this time and time again! Early, we tested rifled choke tubes, and found today's tubes had a fast 1 in 34 avg twist!...same as the present rifled barrels. This twist was designed to try to stabilize the long sabot loads.
We found the following:
(1) None of the tubes gave acuracy we were satisfied with.
(2) There was some bulging in the skirt area of the tubes.
(3) The twist was too fast for ball loads hitting the tube's fast twist at velocities as high as 1600'/"
and above all....no mater what lube we used, the tube was torgued into the barrel to the extent that some had to be removed in a lathe by Mike Orlen. We had one tube that was torqued so deep that the skirt extended into the bore.....and the slug torn it up!
Now,,,,It is next to impossible to slug a barrel (any rifled barrel in shotguns, rifles, or hanguns) with a full size hard cast slug! Oversize hard cast bullets, in rifled barels,are as the following:
(1) Up to and including .357 guns....001" over size.
(2) Up to and including .458" guns...002" oversize
(3) .458" and above (includes 20 & 12 bore)....003' oversize.
Since most factory rifled barrels run .727" in the grooves, the hard cast bullet at .730" diameter is correct.
The best we have found for slugging a rifled barrel is pure lead Egg fishing sinkers that are slighing larger that the bore.
Bottom line is...we have found the best ball gun design in smoothbore barrels is a ball size size that is a slip fit in the cylinder barrel.
And.....we have found no rifled tube with the fast twist giving reults we were satified with! Even a slow twist tube, unlike the original fixed barrels with rifling of the Paradox, will torgue the tubes in too tight.
You are just asking for trouble when you push a hard cast bore size ball/bullet through any smoothbore with choke constriction. In fact, we pulled one of our best loads (Tusker) due to the fact people keep pushing them through over tight chokes and undersize barrels.
Best Regards, James

[longbow]

Good stuff James!

I have often wondered why a slug with a body of say 0.680" and several narrow ribs/driving bands to 0.730" hasn't been tried... or at least I haven't seen one.

There are several slugs like the Brenneke that use helical ribs to center the slug but to allow collapse through choke without damage to the gun. Wouldn't wide deep grooves and narrow driving bands do the same thing ~ center the slug up, grip rifling and yet easily collapse if shot through a choke?

I am thinking something like a Tusker with a core body diameter of around 0.660" to maybe 0.680" with 5 or 6 (maybe more?) narrow driving bands out to 0.730" replacing the two driving bands and one groove. If shot through a choke the bands would just fold over.

For hunting it shouldn't matter because the meplat is what is doing the damage and it is smaller than the body would be.

I could sketch it up and post it if you want to see what I am thinking.

Just a thought.

Longbow

[nitro450exp]

James,

Your response that you will address this post with reason, implies that none is present in the current discussion.
If you look at my initial post, I clearly state I have no experience in shotgun loading, and ask a number of question, like what ball / slug size is correct for my gun, I than go on to state that an interference fit concerns me.
I came to this site specifically because you and others with a great amount of knowledge and experience frequent it.
The reason I am even discussing this, is because I have been told that a 0.735" ball is OK in a 0.729" smooth barrel and a 0.730" slug is OK in a 0.727" ~ 0.729" smooth barrel.

So in a nut shell I ask again, 20" smooth bore SXS approximately 0.727" ~ 0.729" with screw in extended rifled chokes 1:36" 0.730" groove diameter.
Brass Magtech 2 1/2" shells loaded in rock chuker supreme with RCBS cowboy dies, 11 ga nitro cards 1/8" thick and 1/2" waxed fibre wads. (Can be combined in any order and quantity to acheive crimp on the projectile.
I plan to use IMR 700X or 800X as I have a supply of this powder.

What ball or slug do you recommend for safe loading practices ?

Thanks everyone for your suggestions and keeping me safe.

Regards
Nitro450exp

[turbo1889]

Okay, first things first - lets find out what your bore diameter REALLY IS instead of anymore guessing and speculating about the bore diameter of your gun.

I just took two balls cast from soft nearly pure lead in my Lyman 0.735" round ball mold (of which you should have five that I sent you) and pushed them through two of my personal guns from breach to barrel. I didn't have a dowel handy so I found a 3' scrap length of really big diameter insulated aluminum core underground power line that just slipped into my 12ga. bore and used that instead of the usual brass/aluminum/wood pipe/rod/dowel to drive them through the bore with a few taps from a standard size framing hammer. I drove one through my tactical sawed off smooth bore pump gun and the other through one of my NEF-USH rifled barrel slug guns.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=182&pictureid=2091

Apparently the smooth bore in question measures at 0.7305" and my rifled barrel measures at 0.7200" and 0.7295" for the minor and major diameters of the rifling. The tightest bore gun I own in 12ga. is a cheapo $200 Euro-trash side by side double with exposed hammers. I slugged its bore a long time ago, one measures 0.719" and the other 0.720" and the muzzle end on both barrels has a slight swaged in fixed choke so that both muzzles measure 0.715"

I have shot soft lead balls from my Lyman 0.735" RB mold and thick skirt HB foster slugs made from soft lead in all of my 12ga. guns at one time or another including that tight bore Euro-trash side by side double. I have fired hard lead balls and hard lead foster slugs from my custom mold through the tactical shotgun that I just put the balls through and of course all my rifled barrel slug guns and put them through my Saiga-12 as well with different choke constrictions to find out if a hard slug would really split a choke or not (Saiga chokes use external threads instead of internal threads and the actual choke constriction section is an extension of the guns barrel length and thus splitting a Saiga choke won't split the guns barrel and only the choke tube itself is damaged) - they will but it took more constriction and more slugs through them to get them to either open up or split then I thought it would.

Anyway - I'm rambling again; Use a couple of the soft balls I sent you to figure out what is the TRUE diameter of your guns bore and then lets work from there.

[longbow]

Not trying to hijack the thread but here is what I am thinking.

Tusker nose with 0.730" driving bands (could be larger) and 0.600" body and with same Tusker hollow base.

The idea being the driving bands will easily swage to fit undersize barrels or to go through chokes.

Longbow

[nitro450exp]

Turbo,

Thanks for the input, yes I agree that finding out the actual bore diameter is the starting point, I will stop at gander mountain and buy some soft lead sinkers to slug my barrels, I do not want to waste the 5 RB's you sent me, as I want too shoot them if it proves OK.
I also feel that the soft slugs, especially the 1 1/4 oz ones, with the deepest hollow base, will shoot at safe pressure levels

All the questions about different diameters shot out of different bore sizes are mainly because I would like to shoot the harder slugs if possible.

Soft or pure lead will be more prone to "failure" if bone is encountered or less penetration at obscure angles.
The harder slugs, as you mentioned before, have more of the lightning effect, as in they drop as if struck by lightning.

I will slug the bores as soon as I can make some time and all of my reloading components arrive, should be by the end of the week.
Unfortunately time is a luxury I am a little short on right now, my 4 month old daughter has a habit of comandeering what little extra time I can find.
It is scheduled to rain this weekend so the indoor time will be perfect.

Thanks
I will keep you posted of the actual progress.
Regards
Nitro450exp

[Dixie Slugs]

Now! You are getting to the important first point in designing the proper combo for ball'bullet to the smoothbore!As to just how hard, or soft, an oversize ball/bullet should be in a smoothbore...is still open!
We know what Greeener, and the rest, said over a hundred years ago about a harden ball....Slip Fit!
Dixie has specialized for some years with hard cast heat treated slugs...period. We are not going to go to soft lead since it has been proven to us that it just does not perform what our
teat treated bullets do! This rules out much, for us much of what the hobbyist can play with in smoothbores. Since I refuse to deal with speculation, I just do not know what would be safe with oversize balls/bullets in smoothbores.....James

[nitro450exp]

Turbo,

It's done. I used the soft slugs you sent me.
The right barrels slugs at 0.727" the left barrel at 0.726"
The soft slugs and ball went in pretty easy, using a small finish hammer and 1/2" dowel.
I did one of the harder slugs, and there was a noticeable difference in effort required.
All of your slugs are WW alloy correct ?
The difference is quenched and non quenched correct ?
What is the BNH of each ?

I tried to measure the minor diameter on the choke tube, it's about 0.720" which would mean 0.005" depth, does this seem reasonable ?
This was difficult to measure, so I will take it to work and see if we have any gauges that big, I think we do.
Either way I am looking at 0.003" and 0.0035" engraving or less, I hope this is enough to stabilize the slugs and balls.

What is the weight of the round balls ?
If is use surrogate data from shot tables how much should I back off ?
You mention using 1 3/8 oz data for your round balls, is that a hot load ?

Thanks
Nitro450exp

[turbo1889]

My soft lead slugs are nearly pure lead - not pure lead - nearly pure lead. The BHN is about 6 to 7. If they were pure lead they would have a BHN of 5 just a touch harder then pure lead.

My hard lead slugs are water drop quenched WW alloy with a BHN of about 14 to 16 so there is indeed a major difference in hardness between the two. It is not just a matter of quenched or not quenched.

Due to the fact that they are HB foster slugs they will stabilize even if the rifled choke doesn't grab them and give them any spin and they just strip. The soft lead ones may actually bump back up to 730 upon reaching the rifled choke but they are also more likely to strip then the hard ones. The only way to tell will be to shoot them and see. Knowing your bore dimensions I personally would not hesitate to shoot the soft lead slugs or the balls - hard or soft. Your mileage may vary of course.

The hard lead foster slugs have a bit of a squeeze to fit the bore, whether it is too much squeeze or not is debatable. I have personally fired my hard lead slugs in a rifled barrel for a switch barrel pump gun as tight as 0.727" without any issues and my gut tells me that it shouldn't be any thing different with squeezing them down that far in a smooth bore but it’s your gun and your call.

As far as loading data is concerned the balls weigh in at just a little less then 1-3/8oz and that is why I used 1-3/8oz. lead shot load data as a starting point for developing my loads. As Dixie can confirm if you use equal weight lead shot load data to load slugs the pressure of the load normally does not increase, in fact the opposite normally occurs especially if you are using a stable burning heavy field type powder. Some of the fast burning target load powders and some of the ball powders can get a little hairy but as long as you stay away from them and stick with non-ball heavy field powders especially the more stable Alliant and IMR powders this works pretty well. Stated another way - there is no need to back off when you load via. equivalent weight lead shot load data you are already backed off a little. It is possible to work up most loads a few grains more when substituting an equal weight slug for shot. Leave it just as it is and not try to work it up is safest of course - kind of like shooting start loads only with metallic cartridge reloading and never bothering to work up the load to max.

I should also note that my slugs are “as cast” and are not sized with a sizer die like regular cast boolits mainly due to the additional expense of a custom push through sizer die and the extra labor that would be involved with sizing them. Plus Brooks did a very nice job making my custom mold and the size of the slugs as cast is very suitable for my needs and holds very tight to the dimension I specified when I ordered the mold (0.730"). In our communications you have discussed the possibility of you getting a custom mold made to exactly fit the bore diameter of your gun. Sizing down a slug 3 to 4 thousandths of an inch is completely possible with a push through sizing die and is commonly done on much smaller diameter cast boolits where it represents a greater percentage of the boolits diameter. Thus a custom sizing die may be a better idea then a custom mold and you could take just about any diameter slug you wanted from 0.727" up to about 0.740" and then just simply size them down to fit your guns bore.

Oh, yes, the soft lead balls you used to slug your bores. They can certainly be loaded and shot. A second trip down the bore is no big deal since they are soft nearly pure lead they will bump up slightly under the acceleration forces during firing and fit the bore just as tightly as they would have if they were virgin. In fact I've been known to reload hard balls recovered from my boolit trap after washing and re-lubing them if they are still nice and round rather then melting them down and re-casting them. Not so lucky with soft lead balls they turn into silver dollars when they hit the boolit trap.

Again, another edit for extra info, your 0.720" as the minor diameter for the rifling in your rifled choke tube sounds typical for an off the shelf rifled choke tube. I absolutely agree that that is a little shallow on the rifling but you have to use what is available. If it were up to me a rifled choke tube would have six point Newtonian Ratchet Rifling with a gain twist starting from straight rifling to 1/96" twist with the major diameter at 0.729" and the minor diameter at 0.700" for 12ga. and the same thing only with straight to 1/66" gain twist and major diameter at 0.623" and the minor diameter at 0.600" for the 20ga. The tubes would be extended ones of course with as much lip as possible to bear against the shotguns muzzle to try to help prevent over-tightening and a tube of anti-seize included in the box with the choke tubes and directions very explicitly directing its use. They would also have a generous internal bell taper on the screw end to ensure that if the gun they were used in had a larger bore diameter then the major diameter of the rifling you wouldn’t have a lip produced in the bore. All this has been discussed before on this forum in past threads of course and the basic features and dimensions of a “correctly built” rifled choke tube is not wholly my idea by any means. Unfortunately, without mega bucks investment such ideas never get off the drawing board.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Another consideration is .. "What will your intended shooting range be ? " With a smoothbore barrel shooting RB gets a bit iffy for sure ball placement past 50 Yards on even deer size targets. If you are going to be Up close and personal then RB is a very easy and simple load to go with .

[nitro450exp]

Hello,

Thank you everyone for the input and loads of information.
I will play around this weekend and barring any excitement will report the results.
The yardages I plan on shooting will be 10 yds to 60 yds, my acreage is heavilly wooded and I have not cut any shooting lanes.
Most of the deer I have taken, have fallen at 10 to 20 yds to date.
It is possible to thread the needle and get 60 - 75 yds, but we will have to see how the tragectory works out, also bear in mind I am using open express sights.
I will post some pictures of the rig and slugs of the bore this weekend.

Turbo,
As you stated the soft slugs flatten pretty quickly, I will definitely look into a sizer die and play with the hard casts you sent me. I like the idea of the harder bullets for penetration and bone breaking, not that at 10 yds will make a huge difference.

I will keep everyone posted.
Thanks Again
Nitro450exp

[turbo1889]

You should talk to "Buckshot" on this forum. He makes custom push through sizing dies to fit reloading presses. From my understanding he can make big ones that fit the big thread on the press that the bushing threads into that has the smaller threads in it to fit regular reloading dies.

I would suggest you have him make 0.726" for two reasons; first there is a little bit of bounce back when you size hard lead boolits so sizing hard lead slugs in a 0.726" size die will mean they will probably come out the other end at somewhere in-between 0.726" and 0.727". Secondly, you can always lap out a sizing die to make it size bigger but it is awful hard if not impossible to add material and make it size smaller.

I would also suggest that you have him make the plunger part of the sizing die a fairly tight fit - something like 0.720" to 0.724" giving him a fairly generous 0.004" tolerance range. When sizing HB slugs in a nose first sizer with the plunger pushing on the base having the sizing plunger be a tight fit is important.

[nitro450exp]

I PM'ed Buckshot and am waiting for a reply.
Also placed a WTB in the Vendor Buy and Sell forum.
Just waiting for repplies.

Thanks again.
Nitro

[tommygirlMT]

Not trying to hijack the thread but here is what I am thinking.

Tusker nose with 0.730" driving bands (could be larger) and 0.600" body and with same Tusker hollow base.

The idea being the driving bands will easily swage to fit undersize barrels or to go through chokes.

Longbow

Personally I don't think thin driving bands or even lengthwise grooves like found on rifled slugs will ever work satisfactorly to make tight bore and choke safe hard lead slugs --- by the time you make the bands or ribs thin enough for them to work as desired you have fill out problems. If you could somehow cast the bands or grooves of soft lead and the body of the slug with hard lead thin it would work -- but I don't know how one could possibly do that.

I think a built up design using a softer material such as plastic, rubber, or paper to make the driving bands is the only workable solution --- like take your design you posted as an attachment and make it 680 diameter and make three grooves in the body that O-rings snap into to bring it up to full bore diameter.

Here is an idea I have had for a while but have yet to actually have a mold made to produce them that uses nitro cards.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=178&pictureid=1193

Long story short I think a built up design is the only way to make a tight barrel and choke safe smooth bore slug that is full bore diameter and is hard cast.

[tommygirlMT]

Just checked some O-ring size charts. Size #015 rings with the internal diameter of the grooves they snapped into set at 600 would probably do the trick --- provided they will stretch enough to slip over a 680 body diameter. Size #016 could be used as well possibly but they are a bit too big --- probably would be best to stretch a smaller size to a little bit bigger then try to use a size that is too big and squeeze it down.

The Metric size M1x16.5 would be an even better match to the desired finished outside diameter but the fact that they are much thinner probably makes them not suitable since I believe at least half the ring needs to be inside the slug body to keep the ring from stripping off the slug body in the forcing cone.

[longbow]

tommygirlMT:

While I agree that the built up slug is a good idea (Dupleks slugs are similar in principle: http://www.ddupleks.lv/EN/articles/show/steel-advantages), I have to disagree that ribs or driving bands will not work.

I have a copy of an article written by Ross Seyfried describing his success with an original Paradox gun. He says it is a "thin-barreled, light, apparently ordinary 12 ga. game gun" with choked ratchet rifling that swages a 700+ gr. bullet down from 0.736" to 0.690" and gives it a spin of 1:36" in choke of about 3" long.

I had always thought Paradox guns had slow round ball twists but apparently this one didn't.

The bullet is designed with two thin driving bands and a very large annular groove around the middle which is used for two purposes ~ to crimp the hull and to give the displaced lead a place to go.

Also, Brenneke, Gualandi and a few other bore size slugs use the thin rib principle to allow shooting through chokes ~ maybe not recommended but safe to do.

As for built up slugs, something like the Dupleks slug swould not be easy to make at home but your o-ring idea could result in a similar functionality. I have my doubts that o-rings would survive the journey down the barrel on a bore diameter slug as they would tend to roll but if the slug was made to fit into a shotcup so the o-rings gave a snug fit when the shotcup was inserted into the barrel that might be a keeper.

While I like bore size slugs, I am admitting defeat in my smoothbore testing with full bore Fosters and attached wad slugs. I have had better success with attached wad slugs that fit into shotcups. I am not sure why but the shotcup seems to give guidance or support as the slug enters the forcing cone. Since it is earier to load than a plastic gas seal and a bunch of card wads it is also an obvious choice.

I suspect that with a couple of driving bands (kinda like the Lyman sabot slug) it would also do well in a rifled barrel.

Longbow

[Dixie Slugs]

We have really beat this one to death! It reminds me of all the posts about the Dixie Tusker when we had it in the line!
Bottom line is simple indeed! If you want a hard cast heat treated hollow base slug or a hard cast round ball in a smoothbore.....let it have a barrel that the ball/slug is a slip fit (whatever the guns barrel is) and no choke.
If you want to shoot slugs in a choked gun.....use some of the Fosters, etc.
You must read Ross' work very careful and see what he is really saying! In Volume 10 - Issue 4...he did some outstanding work on reloading Paradox and Ball guns. You should note what he says about guns that were set up for brass vs paper hulls in reference to bore/groove.
The hobbyist will continue the try various designs. However, to keep it simple one should read the comments here. There has been a ton of work going all the way back to Greener. .....and the principles still remains.......soft balls/slugs in choked smoothbore barrels and hard cast in rifled barrels or cylinder barrels.chokes. It is really that simple in the long run!...James

[longbow]

Just to be clear here, I am not advocating that people should make a habit of shooting full bore slugs through tight chokes or that one should expect accuracy if doing so.

I am saying I think it is a good idea to account for the possibility that a full bore slug could find its way into a gun with a tight choke.

As a caster and reloader, I can control what gets into my guns and ensure that I don't blow a choke off but a commercial mould maker or supplier of slugs does not have the luxury of controlling the use of the final product.

Many people have a bad habit of not reading instructions or warnings then going and getting a lawyer to bail them out when they do something they shouldn't have.

In my case, if I can make a slug that gives acceptable accuracy and will also be safe to shoot through a choke, that is the slug I will use. There is no chance of damaging a gun or shooter then.

Longbow

[nitro450exp]

Hello all, including hijackers.

Had a good weekend the soft 0.730" slugs shot very well in the gun.
No pressure or crazyness.
The soft RB 0.735" also seemed OK but only had 4 to shoot, so could not get any real work done.

I will be getting more soon, so look for another report.

The 1 1/4 oz slugs produced an 8" verticle string and 3" wide group ( 2 different shooters ) I can tighten it up to 5 and 2 with one shooter.
The right barrel shoots low and the left is spot on, hence the 5" verticle.
The sights are dead on at 55 yds with a 6 oclock hold, got lucky since the were originally made for the 45-70 tubes.
Can't do anything about the verticle since it is a SXS, just have to use the left first and if it is still standing, aim 4" high for the right.

I ordered a sizer die, so I will size the harder slugs down to bore size and try those, the slugs are loose in the case mouth, had to put a heavy crimp to hold them, pressure is so low it doesn't even take the whole crimp out, and when I size the cases there is barely any contact at the base on the sizer die.
20 grains of 700x works good, need to put some over the chrony.
I may try 25 grains of 800x and see what that does to group size.

Will take some pics and update soon.
I have ordered more slugs and balls, look for another report soon.

Nitro450exp

[Greg5278]

I have only used 700X for super mild loads. I would guess thta your load with 20 grains is a bit anemic, possibly even subsonic with your hravy bullet. I think 17gr gave my 410gr bullet 1200 FPS. IMR 4756 might be better for you, or 7625 depending on how fast you want to push it.
You need to get a load with consistent chamber pressure, if you are on the low end it could be stringing the group.
Greg

[nitro450exp]

I will have to chrony them and see.
I expect based on the IMR book that they would be around 1200 fps.
Maybe a little under recoil was very mild, 21 grains was a little more stout.
Since I am using rifled chokes with a 1:36" twist, I do not want to push them too fast.
I am concerned that the rifeling will strip at the higher speeds.
I shot Rem. Sabot Copper solids at around 1500 - 1600 Fps and they tumbled bad at 17 yds.
This is just the starting point, thanks for the advice, I will investigate other powders.
The wad column is holding the powder pretty tight, is that a problem with other powders ?

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/nitro450exp/12slug.jpg
http://photos.gunloads.com/images/nitro450exp/12slug1.jpg

Thanks
Nitro450exp

[Greg5278]

If you want a mild load, I was given a pressure tested one for a vinatge Paradox gun with smokless powder. It is as follows 2.5" federal paper case, Win 209 primer, 22.0grain Alliant Unique powder, .135" nitro card, .625" cork, 740gr paradox style bullet,
980 FPS at 6960 PSI.
Thanks to Tom Armbrust at Ballistic research for the load. I have another one somewhere around here.I also have a Subsonic load for my 880 grain slug at 1047 FPS with Longshot.

I think you need abullet with maximum bearing surface, not with a alot of wide grease grooves.
I would stick with slower powders: IMR 4756 for 650gr and less, and IMR 4759 for heavier slugs. IMR 4227 could be used, but only in large charges for really heavy slugs, 1000gr and up.

Perhaps a slug in a steel shot wad would work? I have some, but have not tried them in a rifled tube. They shoot fine in a rilfed barrel.
Greg

[nitro450exp]

Well Hello Again,

Buckshot came thru for me, even though he had an equipment failure.
My custom LEE type inser sizer die arrived today.
This will allow me to size the slugs from Turbo down from 0.730" to 0.726"
for a bore sized fit, this will not give me allot of choke engagement,
Grooves are 0.730" and lands are ~ 0.724".

After I size a few I will push then through the choke and see how the engraving looks.
Of all the rounds fired so far I have not been able to recover a single round.
Either in the tree or too deep in the soil to find.
I have ordered some more cards and Wads (non Lubed) they should be here soon.
I will keep you posted when I get going again, hopefully in the next few weeks.

Regards
Nitro

[nitro450exp]

Hello,

Update time.

Well "Buckshot" came through for me, the sizer die is perfect.

I sized some of the Dixie Slugs I had and the slugs from Turbo.
They come out at around 0.726" - 0.0005.
When droped down the right barrel the slide almost all the way to the choke.
I pushed the slug to the choke with a dowel and minmal hand pressure.
Left barrel is a little tighter, they slide 1/4 of the way and minimal pressure with the dowel gets the slug a couple of inches from the choke. Medium hand pressure gets it the last few inches.

I then drove them through the choke with the dowel and mallet, engraving looks OK, I was worried the choke would not get a good bite.
The best measurement I could get was 0.722" on the grooves, so about 0.002" engraving on the rifeling.
We will just have to see if it is enough or they strip, If I keep velocity in the 1200 ~ 1400 range I think I will be OK.

Well the only 11ga wads I have are lubricated, and they are messy, so I have 1000 non lubed coming, and some more nitro cards and some over shot cards.
In order to get the slug in the case with the top band on the crimp I was using 2x nitro cards 1x wad, card, wad, 2x cards.
So I was going through wads and cards pretty fast.
The other combo was 3 cards 3 wads, alternating then slug.

I may try a card on top of the slug so I do not have to crimp the brass so heavilly.
Slug = 0.726" brass case mouth = 0.750" so I am having to crimp 0.012" to hold the slug in the case.
I don't think this will do case life any favours.
Also the crimp remains after firing so reloading is a pain.
I made a sizer plug to open the mouth of the case some for reloading, but I am goint to end up work hardening the mouths, can you say aneal time.

Wads will be here end of the week I hope, I will let you know the progress.

Cheers
Nitro

[nitro450exp]

Hello,

Here is a slug crimped in a paper hull.

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/nitro450exp/0609101056.jpg
http://photos.gunloads.com/images/nitro450exp/0609101055a.jpg

I had to make my own tool.
Works pretty good.
Was out of town last week, hope to get some load work done soon.

Cheers
Nitro

[nitro450exp]

Hello,

I mentioned erlier I would post some pics of the gun.
I made and added the sight base and 1/4 rib.
The front bead is marbles and rear sight is Dakota (Narrowed to match the rib)
Here you go.
I hope to get some loading and shooting done soon!!!!

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/nitro450exp/ribsidecomp.jpg
http://photos.gunloads.com/images/nitro450exp/frontsightc.jpg
http://photos.gunloads.com/images/nitro450exp/ribtopc.jpg
http://photos.gunloads.com/images/nitro450exp/sightpicturec.jpg

Thanks
Enjoy
Nitro

[longbow]

Those are awfully nice looking loaded rounds and the gun as well.

I have been toying with the same idea myself but toy money is scarce so I am just dreaming at present.

It is nice to see someone building and making good progress. I will be very interested to see how this all turns out.

Keep up the good work!

Longbow

[missionary5155]

Good Evening
That is a nice Double setup. Sure beats my Fox B 12 guage in the sight department. The closest I got to a real rear sight was to remove a screw that anchored the rib at the chamber area and install a taller screw so as to sight through the screw slot using the origonal front bead. Worked sufficiently out to 35 yards for testing and was accurate enough to hit deer at 40 yards with Roundball.
But those sights would have made a real difference.. Have to put that on my next time up to Illinois project list.
Mike in Peru

[nitro450exp]

Thanks for the compliments.

Cheers
Nitro

[cajun shooter]

Nitro, I have been watching your thread and find it very interesting. I had and used the very same shotgun when I started in SASS. I shoot nothing but BP and the shape of the trigger guard would cut open my fingers at every match. It was so bad that I started taping up my hands before the match. I have a large supply of paper hulls if you wanted to try more in your quest. I have Fioochi and Federal both. I would send them at just the cost of shipping. Why don't you try using the roll crimp? That is all that I use when loading my hulls. I use my bench mounted drill press Later David

[nitro450exp]

Cajun

Were you shooting shot or slugs at your SASS matches ?
I have shot only factory slugs, and my own loaded slugs and round balls from this gun.
No trigger finger cuts or abbrasions.
My buddy did get a knot on his middle finger from one of the shooting sessions.

If I have any success with the paper hulls, I will take you up on your offer, but not untill I have some indication of success, Or it will just be more clutter in an already full gun room.

I am going to a DR (Double Rifle) shoot on the 24th so I need to get it shooting by then.

I will try a roll crimp eventually but need to order a crimping tool.

Thanks for the info.

Nitro

[nitro450exp]

Hello All,

Had a pretty good session at the range this weekend.

The brass shells with BPGS, 2 fibre wads, a nitrocard with SR4759, slug and an overshot card, were terrible.
I think it was the powder choice, lots of unburned powder.
I will try again with 800X.
I am determined to make them work.
I think I will switch to RB in them exclusively.

The paper hulls with Fed cut down wads, 2 nitro cards and paradox type crimp worked well.
The load was pretty consistent.
I will post target pictures and velocities later this week.
I think I have a solution for this load.
Leading was an issue, with the soft lead.
Hopefully the hard cast will be better, after sizing I think I will need to relube.

Very encouraging weekend.

Cheers
Nitro :p

[Greg5278]

The BPGS seals often blow through in slug loads. I have used them as per the BPI manual, but have not found them to be reliable. I use the X12X in it's place. I only have them fail if the pressure is way beyond normal operating range. That might help you a good bit. The OB12 is a good gas seal too, but needs to be used in tapered hulls, or blowby will be a problem.
Greg

[nitro450exp]

Greg

Recovered the seal, was intact but showed minimal engraving from the choke.
Also load was anemic at best 600 ~ 750 fps.
The cases were covered on the outside with unburned powder.

Did not see or feel this with the 800x.

Nitro

[Greg5278]

IMR 4759 works best with slugs 600 grains and heavier. It also needs s good roll crimp. Perhaps 4756 would be better suited to your purpose. It works well up to 650gr, but it5 too fast for 750gr slugs. Don't worry about choke engraving on the gas seals, only on the bullet.
I use the waxed .740" diameter cards from BPI to act as a second gas seal, and to help clean out fouling.
Greg

[JTCoyoté]

It's curious to see how this technology has finally come full circle.

Without batting an eye, Holland & Holland snatched up the patented Fosbery system in the late 19th century and gave it the name "Paradox" -- but why Paradox...? Could it be that the system has the unique ability, without any alteration, to pattern shot as well as a choked shotgun at any given range. Then crack the breech and grab a couple of solids from the other pocket and group high energy balls or slugs in a 5" circle at 100 paces... something a smooth bore gun couldn't come close to doing.

This is the "Paradox"... a 12 bore, (there were a few 8 bores made too...) that could easily take a goose on the wing at 50 yards in the morning... then drop a charging 1.5 ton water buffalo at 75 yards that afternoon. Jack Lott was fascinated by these guns in his later years...

We all have a Euro or Chinese coach gun that doesn't get used much, that can be fitted with choke tubes. Most of us have always wanted a decent quality double rifle. Well, knowing the "Paradox" why not go all the way and do the "permanent fix"...?

Why worry about fire tightening chokes and split barrels. All it will take is building a slow (1~ 48'' to 56") twist, deep grooved, (.012" to .015") "ratchet rifled" choke fitted exactly to your guns bores. They need to be a bit longer than usual to lengthen the barrels 3 to 4 inches so you can regulate the thing in the manner W. Ellis Brown describes in his book "Building Double Rifles on Shotgun Actions." Then you add a couple of rib extensions, a low profile flip up rear sight and a shallow ramped front bead -- Heat up a bit of Hi-Force-44 to sweat it all together... and... "Voila," a real Paradox!

JT