equipment

[Beekeeper]

OK I did a search but found nothing I can use( probably my inability to use search correctly) so I wanted to ask the following.
I am starting to get all of the gear together to start BP reloading.
I have read the books and most of them are more confusing than helpful.

Drop tube: is it really necessary if you only reload a few occasionally?
Compression die: What is it? Again is it necessary for the occasional shooter?

I will be loading for 3 weapons.
A .577 Snider
577/450 Gahendra Martini Henry
71/84 Mauser.
The mauser I will mostly shoot with smokeless but would like to fire it a few times with BP

I have all of the dies and moulds but need info on the above to make sure I don't make an ash of myself.


Jim

[John Boy]

Jim, neither are necessary until you shot some groups using them and find they are much better than when not using them. Your call!

[mnzrxer]

I would recommend a drop tube of some kind mainly for the safety aspect if not for accuracy. BP needs to fill the case and not be loose like many smokeless loads are. With the drop tube you can be quite sure the powder will settle enough during case charging that it won't settle more after seating the bullet and leave an air gap. I just made my own drop tube out of some copper tube, a small metal funnel and a cut off bottle neck cartridge case that I soldered together. No reason to spend big bucks on it, I figure.

[montana_charlie]

Drop tube: is it really necessary if you only reload a few occasionally?
No. You can tap the charged case on the bench to settle the charge.
If you always tap the same number of times, and with the same force, you will settle the charge a consistent amount.

Compression die: What is it? Again is it necessary for the occasional shooter?
It is an expander die with the expander plug removed, and replaced with a compression plug. One die will do both jobs if you have both plugs.

The capability is only needed if you need to compress the charge after settling it.
Compression allows you to get more powder under the bullet, and (with some powders) causes the powder to burn more efficiently...leaving less fouling.

Alternatively, you could cast one bullet with a very hard alloy, and save that bullet.
Use it (in the bullet seating die) to compress the charge before seating the actual bullet. Compressing with a 'soft' bullet will probably damage it.

CM

[Beekeeper]

Thanks for the info everyone!
I feel better now that I have some idea about the items.
Will make a drop tube in the next few days so I will be able to settle the powder correctly.
Have a wedding to get through first. Not mine, Son is remarrying .
They way they are going at it you would think they are 17 instead of 40.


Jim

[montana_charlie]

Will make a drop tube in the next few days so I will be able to settle the powder correctly.
Like you, I made a drop tube prior to loading my first BP cartridge. It seemed to be such a universal requirement, I believed any other method of settling a charge was just a substitute for doing it the 'correct' way.

I still use the tube...but mainly because I already have it.
I have come to suspect the drop tube was conceived in the womb of 'necessity' rather than 'correctness'.

When you read so many posts by new shooters where they ask how anyone can possibly get 70 grains of powder in a modern (non-baloon head) 45/70 case, you start to see why the drop tube probably came into existence.

Using it, you can settle the powder as it is poured...allowing you to get more powder in the case.
Tapping, or another form of vibration, will settle a charge just as efficiently, but only if you can get all of the powder in the case to start with.

If your chosen load doesn't overflow when you pour it in...the tube is just an exercise machine which makes you stand up (or bend down) for each charge.

CM

[mnzrxer]

One note on drop tube use. If you are using a loading block to hold multiple cartridges make sure you always move the next empty case under the tube as soon as you drop a charge. I found out the hard way 240 grains of BP won't fit in a 45-120 case.:groner: What a mess!

[cajun shooter]

There you go crying over spilled powder again!!

[Tom-ADC]

I bought a Lyman #55 BP powder measure with the drop tube option, IMHO they are to large in dia. I'm going to make up a tube that will fit inside the large tube.
I've yet to load my 1st BP 45-70 round, I have Starline cases and using my adjustable powder measure set at 65 grs those cases will hold 65 grs of FFgwith no problem and I'm sure with a Magma 405 gr bullet I'll get some compression. I plan on trying the powder measure without the droptube to see if there are any issues getting 65 grs of FFg.

[August]

I taped an aluminum funnel to a piece of copper tubing. Looks like hell but works great.

The reason for a compression die is to avoid using the bullet as the means for compressing the powder. Such practice often distorts the bullet and wrecks havoc with accuracy. Compression dies are a good thing. As soon as you get one, you'll instantly understand how, and why to use it.

[montana_charlie]

One note on drop tube use. If you are using a loading block to hold multiple cartridges make sure you always move the next empty case under the tube as soon as you drop a charge.
I place an individual case under the tube...then place it in the loading block when I'm done with it. But there's an intermediate step.

When you compress a charge, you will often have trapped air push the wad back up near the case mouth. I compress the charge, and leave it in the die with the handle down...then place an empty inder the tube before getting the next powder charge ready.


I found out the hard way 240 grains of BP won't fit in a 45-120 case.:groner: What a mess!
There you go crying over spilled powder again!!
My crying consisted of tiny tears shed over small piles of powder.

Considering all of the 'extra steps' involved in reloading BPCR ammo, I got a bit ahead of myself when making up my first batch.

I slow-poured the first weighed charge down the drop tube and noted the level of powder inside before thumbing a wad into the mouth. Placed that one in the loading block and did another. When I picked the second one up, I noticed eight or ten granules of loose powder on the bench.
"Hmmm! How is it possible for powder to splash out of the case?"

I made sure the tube was well inside the case mouth and did a third after cleaning away the 'overflow'. When I picked that one up, there were four or five granules laying there.

"Well, that makes three charges that will be underweight, dummy".

I hunted up a piece of surgical tubing and cut off a thin 'washer' from the end.
Stretched that band onto the tube, and adjusted it so the weight of the tube was supported on the case mouth...with the rubber making a seal.

Fourth try resulted in the same 'residue' of granules laying on the bench.

"Boy! This drop tube thing is more complicated that I ever imagined."

I decided to put off loading ammo until I had this problem figured out.
To make sure I didn't forget (over time) about the four bad charges, I poured them back into the powder measure hopper.
While pouring one of the four, I happened to notice the case was not primed...which reminded me that I had spent way too much time worrying about 'extra steps', and not enough time (ulp!)thinking of the 'normal ones'.

CM

[Limey]

Hi Montana Charlie...

...don't they say.....'''an extra grain of smokeless makes a whole world of difference while an extra grain of Black don't make any difference at all''.......

Staight shootin',

Limey

[montana_charlie]

They may say that, Limey. And it may be true, too.
But, when you are just starting out, the first 'project' is load development.
For that, everything has to be as perfect as you can make it...so you have some faith in the results.

CM

[Beekeeper]

I agree with Charlie,
That is why I am taking my time to get all the right gear and learn all the steps first .
Like not pulling the rim off of a 577/450 case like I did a few minutes ago.
Dumb,dumb mistake but better to learn now than later when it counts.


Jim

[mnzrxer]

While pouring one of the four, I happened to notice the case was not primed...which reminded me that I had spent way too much time worrying about 'extra steps', and not enough time (ulp!)thinking of the 'normal ones'.

CM

Yup, I've done that, too. Except I did it with 40 some grains of BL-C(2) in my .243 WSSM. Those little balls of powder flow real nicely through a flash hole.

Anyway, my point is just take your time and create a method for loading that you can follow so you can spend your time making good ammo and not cleaning up a mess that shouldn't have happened. As Montana Charlie pointed out there are enough steps to BPC reloading that it can take a while to load up a batch. I don't know about you, but I only seem to be able to manage a short loading session here and there so I try to spend it productively (doesn't always work out as planned).

[Dale53]

Beekeeper;
I suggest you get a couple of books:

"The Black Powder Cartridge Reloading Primer" by Steve Garby and Mike Venturino:

http://www.blackpowderspg.com/mlvbooks.html#3

Another really good one is "Black Powder Cartridge Silhouette Handbook" by Croft Barker:

http://www.gunbooksales.com/blackpdr.htm

An excellent magazine (Edited by Champion Shooter Steve Garbe) is the "Black Powder Cartridge News":

http://www.gunbooksales.com/blackpdr.htm

They will save you more aggravation than you can imagine and help you to reach your potential with these fine rifles.

Dale53

[The Double D]

For the 577/450 cartridge you do not need a drop tube, and I don't believe you need it for the Snider either.

The 577/450 is a large bottle neck case and if you use American straight wall loading techniques will over load the cartridge massively.

The service load was 85 grains of RFG2 a powder of grain size equivalent to FG.

The American straight wall practice is to fill the case to a level about the height of the bottom of the bullet. Compress the powder, add some wads and then the bullet.

If you do this with a Martini case you will be using between 95 and 110 grains of powder just to the neck depending on whether you are using modified shot gun cases--CBC or regular solid head drawn cases.

If you load the 577/450 using 95 or more of black powder , the Martini will bite you.

The British cartridges are usually bottle neck and have far larger capacity than the straight wall American cartridges. Because of this smaller British BP cartridges often have airspace. The larger British cases make extensive use of fillers. Notice I type the word filler and not wad. Filler is just that something that fills and eliminate all airspace. The British used cotton wool and felt.

Unlike the Martini Henry that uses bullets of .468 the Gahendra's have smaller bores. Bores have been reported at .464, .457 and .451. I have seen both .464 and .457 bores, but not a .451. If you incorrectly measure a .457 slug from a Gahendra bore you will a .451 measurement.

You pulled a rim off a cartridge, huh? Normally this is because if poor case lube during full length resizing. Proper lube is especially important in the larger case becasue of its greater surface are.

In the 577/450 there are a couple of other reasons for this.

Turned brass. If you are using turned brass do not full length resize, anneal and neck size only. Because of its different metalurgical structure the brass used in turned cases the rim does not have the strength to pull the case out of the sizing die and will pull the weaker rim of.

Modified Shotgun cases. Brass shot gun cases do not have a flat forward rim seat. The rim seat is tapered and smaller than the .577 head. A shell holder for the .577 head will just barely hold the shotgun gun rim. In full length sizing can slip and pull rims especially with poorly lube cases. For CBC shotgun cases you need a Lee Martini shell holder, it is smaller diameter. Just be fore warned that Lee shell holder may be to small for solid head cases.

[Beekeeper]

Got all them books Dale!
Still like to hear from someone that has the experience as it is 100 times better than anything out of a book.
I spent 40 years only using a book or books and have learned more here in 1 year than in the previous 40.


Jim

[RMulhern]

You don't have to be a Wernher Von Braun to reload BP....but it does require some commonsense! It ain't ROCKET SCIENCE!!

[wills]

One note on drop tube use. If you are using a loading block to hold multiple cartridges make sure you always move the next empty case under the tube as soon as you drop a charge. I found out the hard way 240 grains of BP won't fit in a 45-120 case.:groner: What a mess!

A coffee can lid under the cartridge does a good job of catching the spilled powder. Also, i found a charming craft tray similar to this ( i think mine is a lovely shade of pink), with a handy funnel to facilitate returning the spilled powder to the measure. (I havent had an opportunity to try it in actual use yet) Try your neighborhood craft store.
http://www.joann.com/images/00/96/5/xprd9658_m.jpg
or
http://www.jewelrysupply.com/images/tr162b.jpg

[cajun shooter]

I aim at the Stars!! What a wonderful movie about Mr. Von Braun. The Lyman 55 BP measure is a good one but the stock tube is too large. Beekeeper if you stay in the process then you will want some vegetable wads and compression dies that are sold by Buffalo Arms. Some of my most accurate 45-70 loads can only be made with the use of a compression die. That is used after the drop tube which can be purchased also from Buffalo Arms. I bought the one they have and it works great. You can also do as August and just make one. That is the same as Rick meant by referring to Mr. Von Braun