Is It Just Me/

[462]

Is it just me, or have the discussions on a few threads, lately, been taken over by personal attacks? One was even closed, because of it. I joined Castboolits in part to obtain knowledge and to pass along to others what I’ve learned, on my relatively short casting journey. The other contributing factor was the polite and considerate treatment members showed toward each other, even while disagreeing.

I’ve defended myself and my views, when attacked by other members, but have never been the instigator of such nor called any member a derogatory name. It has always been my intention to conduct myself in a civil and gentlemanly manner.

If, in the course of my discussions, any member feels offended by something I said, I offer a sincere apology. If those members who have called other members and me names ever decide to put forth their apologies, I will gladly accept and forgive them. It’s understandable that, in the midst of a passionate discussion, we may say or write something in a manner or tone in which we didn’t intend. That doesn’t excuse us, though, for not being man enough to make amends, afterwards.

America’s gun owners and its gun industry have been, and continue to be, under relentless political pressure for untold years. We, as gun owners, dealers, and collectors need to remain united. For surely if we don’t, we become easy prey for those who want to see America become an unarmed society.

Castboolit members can agree to disagree, but let's leave the personal attacks and name-calling to the other forums.

[deltaenterprizes]

Some people get offended if you say "Hello" these days. God forbid you disagree with them!

[waksupi]

This is a yearly thing, nothing new. I suspect it is a combination of cabin fever, and spring fever. It does go away, but it is a pain until it does.
I remember on Bonanza, they had to give Hoss, black strap molasses, and sulfur for a spring tonic. Everybody line up, and hold your nose!

[danski26]

I am wondering if the "tone" has changed around here in the past year or so. I'm not sure but it seems a bit less civil. It could be my imagination though.

[DLCTEX]

Of course we have grown tremendously in membership, and some of these behaviors are commonplace on other forums (that's why I don't frequent them). It will be up to us to educate the new, and some of us older, members that civility is the rule here. Let us educate primarily by example.

[Recluse]

This is a yearly thing, nothing new. I suspect it is a combination of cabin fever, and spring fever. It does go away, but it is a pain until it does.

Lest we forget, it's also an election year--and a critical one at that. . .

:coffee:

[Houndog]

Let's not forget that close to 1 in 6 people have lost their job, are working less hours, or have had their salaries cut in some way! Financial stress and worrying about your job doesn't help a person't attitude and it can manefest itself in a bunch of different ways. We should be mindful of the excess tension in people's lives today and cut each other an extra measure of slack.

[Freightman]

Let's not forget that close to 1 in 6 people have lost their job, are working less hours, or have had their salaries cut in some way! Financial stress and worrying about your job doesn't help a person't attitude and it can manefest itself in a bunch of different ways. We should be mindful of the excess tension in people's lives today and cut each other an extra measure of slack.
I am an old man and still having to go to work every day just to keep my house and car and my wife's medical bills paid. I am as close to total bankrup as i have ever been, but that doesn't excuse me from bieing civil and not rude. The problem with opinions is everyone has one and neather will buy you a cup of coffee. I apoligize if anyone takes this wrong I am not trying to make anyone feel sorry for me just saying everyone has problems so lets stand united and stop cutting each other apart.

[44fanatic]

Im here to listen to yall oldtimers...gain wisdom and share experience.

From a thread I started the other day, I do believe that some of us noobs can create issues in our ignorance...same story...different day type of stuff. I can understand someone getting tired of it.

[DIRT Farmer]

New to the forum, and was directed to a thread covering the question , If I had knowen I was going to the hog lot I would have woren my boots.
In my opinion not the best introduction. I have found a lot of good info, Things I have worked around for years, but having an idea of what mistakes not to make would have been a God send when I was the only cast shooter I knew. Thanks for the input.

[44mag1]

I find it hard to argue with people who like guns

[deltaenterprizes]

Let us educate primarily by example.

Sir that is a rare quality these days and a great piece of advise.

[danski26]

I agree Delta!

[captaint]

Let me say this. I do a lot more learning than advising here. I do have my opinions. If somebody disagrees, so be it. Hell, if I want to argue about something, I'll go back to work!! enjoy Mike

[geargnasher]

Sorry if it offends sometimes, but I refuse to tolerate any rudeness here, to me or others. I deal with it all day. At work, I represent my employer, and act accordingly. In public, I call people down the same way I do here, make them realize how I perceive them. Some want to fight, some get huffy and stump away. That's life, but I don't suffer people like that in my presence. If we all carried guns and could backhand each other through a phone line, things would be much different, as Robert A. Heinlein observed so famously. Mostly just dysfunctional punk keyboard commandos, but they deserve no place here and won't get any slack from me.

Gear

[Lead Fred]

I find it hard to argue with people who like guns

Even harder if they have it with them [smilie=s:

[Buckshot]

............Whenever this topic comes up I ask folks to remember a few things when posting and replying:

1) We're all enjoying a hobby. This is NOT life and death.
2) We're all after the same thing, and there are different ways to accomplish it.
3) There is a wide spread in knowledge from the most experienced to the very new. The most experienced must understand what is simple for them is brand new for many others.
4) Differences of opinion is common in a group. Being able to accept that fact is the sign of a mature adult.
5) The ability to give the benefit of doubt to another is social maturity.

And finally the written word is sadly deficient in it's ability to convey feelings. Speech is rich in information conveyed outside the meaning of the words spoken. There is Intonation, cadence, inflection, and stress in speech which will heavily influence the meaning and value of what's said. This to the point where the meaning of what was said can be completely opposite of the meaning of the words spoken.

The other important means of information that's missing is visual. You cannot see body language. This is total body as well as the merest eye movement. Body language added to the information conveyed by speech OUTSIDE the meaning of the words spoken, make the written word a disaster in information transfer. Sarcasm used in speech can be hurtfull, or the exact same words can make it's target laugh. Such is the power of the spoken words' VERBAL delivery, and accompanying VISUAL component.

BOTH are missing in the simple printed word, so be mindfull of what you write and how it may be received.

In the end to me, written personal denigration and name calling is childishness of the highest degree, and can only bring a sense of accomplishment to an equally childish individual. If someone took offense to something I wrote, and responded by suggesting my mother wore combat boots, what would that mean to me? Should I or anyone immediately retaliate in kind? I don't know them, they don't know me and nothing they can type on a computer screen is going to have one iota's effect on me in ANY regard. Responding in kind merely puts me in the same catagory as them. Ignoring such things without responding keeps you out of the muck and mire and retires the situation immediately.

...............Buckshot

[Joneser]

I have not been here long. I have seen 1 thread that was heated and I have dealt with 1 person who was just rude...other than that its all been good. I would like to take this time to thank everyone who has given me advise and helped me. I like it here and will always respect everyone.

Calvin

[Bret4207]

I've been with this crew since '97. This happens every now and again. same with the foul language. It's up to the older members to bring the noobs up to speed on how things
run here.

And, it'll pass.

[joeb33050]

I am wondering if the "tone" has changed around here in the past year or so. I'm not sure but it seems a bit less civil. It could be my imagination though.

Yes, the tone here has changed, as well as the tone in much of the rest of discourse. Instead of reasoned expression of views and opinions with reference to facts, the nature of conversation has become attacks and reference to supposed facts that are lies. References to the president as a skid mark on underwear are an example, as are the accompanying lies masquerading as truth.
Some of us have learned this from the Radio and TV folk, with Glenn Beck the glaring example. Not to say that the liberal end TV guys are any better. Beck tells lies frequently, quivers and shivers and cries, and maybe influences a lot of people. He's a wonderful actor supported by a large production and writing staff and makes a lot of money.
If the ?news? media is driven only or predominently by the profit motive, and if ratings = profit, and if we watch or listen or read; then it is reasonable to assume that some of us will be influenced to copy the style(s) of those presenting.
That's what I see happening.
I've followed politics for 50 years, and never saw nor read about such a common ANGRY LOUD mode of discussion as we have today. People disliked, for example, FDR; but never was there such a concerted mad spit-flying large opposition to him.
Maybe that's what discourse is going to be in the future, but I hope it's just a passing fad.
joe b. Liberal and shooter

[jlchucker]

If you want rudeness, then read your local newspaper on line instead of buying it at a news stand. You'll see comments there that are based upon incivility. I've got friends who are liberals--I'm not--but at least in face-up conversation we can still respect what the other guy is saying. Lots of internet comments seem to be evolving into incivility because posters are, in many cases, anonymous. This is particularly noticeable when they are posting about the news, as opposed to sites like this one. Joeb33050 singles out Glenn Beck, but the network sponsoring Rachel Maddow and Keith Olberman are, from my perspective, even more hateful. We need to keep politics separate from our hobbies, at least.

[44fanatic]

We need to keep politics separate from our hobbies, at least.

Amen...

Just found out I cant post four letter words by themselves....Amen is a four letter word...LOL

[joeb33050]

If you want rudeness, then read your local newspaper on line instead of buying it at a news stand. You'll see comments there that are based upon incivility. I've got friends who are liberals--I'm not--but at least in face-up conversation we can still respect what the other guy is saying. Lots of internet comments seem to be evolving into incivility because posters are, in many cases, anonymous. This is particularly noticeable when they are posting about the news, as opposed to sites like this one. Joeb33050 singles out Glenn Beck, but the network sponsoring Rachel Maddow and Keith Olberman are, from my perspective, even more hateful. We need to keep politics separate from our hobbies, at least.
I certainly don't mean that Beck is the only one, nor that conservatives are more likely to act this way than liberals. They both do it, loud nasty yelling interrupting lying behavior seems to be the current recipe for success in the media.
I hope it goes away.
joe b.

[TDB9901]

Due to bump in life's highway, and being away from here for the better part of a year or so....... I too thought I noticed a deterioration of tone when I got back on. Nothing that really jumped out at me, but It was there......

The membership exploded during my absence, which I thought was great, but it also brings with it all the problems that any population increase brings. The more personalities involved, the more the chance for conflict and disagreement.

This is still the best place going to learn and discuss things we all enjoy. As was stated earlier, this ain't life and death, it's for fun and enjoyment.

[blackthorn]

Quote "joe b. Liberal and shooter" end quote!

The question is---for how long?---If you are as old as I am the answer is likely "till the day I die"---If you'r a young fellow---maybe not! The "anti's" are in this for the long term and if you dont believe me just take a good hard look at what we put up with in Canada (where we have had a "liberal" government---like forever) or what goes on in Great Britton, Australia etc. etc.

Another poster suggested we keep our hobby separate from our politics and I agree that would be the best solution BUT the question is HOW? The "anti's" ARE political and in my opinion if we bury our collective head in the sand---they WILL win!

I thought a long time before I decided to stick my oar in these waters but this is just too important an issue to ignore!!

[theperfessor]

Buckshot's analysis of the issue is top notch. There's a lot of "missing communication" in any electronic-only interchange. This is too good of a resource to let descend into crude nuttiness.

[joeb33050]

Quote "joe b. Liberal and shooter" end quote!

The question is---for how long?---
For the last 50 years or so, since I was 22.

If you are as old as I am the answer is likely "till the day I die"---If you'r a young fellow---maybe not! The "anti's" are in this for the long term and if you dont believe me just take a good hard look at what we put up with in Canada (where we have had a "liberal" government---like forever) or what goes on in Great Britton, Australia etc. etc.




Another poster suggested we keep our hobby separate from our politics and I agree that would be the best solution BUT the question is HOW? The "anti's" ARE political and in my opinion if we bury our collective head in the sand---they WILL win!

I thought a long time before I decided to stick my oar in these waters but this is just too important an issue to ignore!!

Who would disagree with the FACT that there are a lot of people out there who would like to take some/many/all the guns away from the shooters? Not I. Should the shooters defend themselves against the anti-gunners? Of course.
We have the second amendment on our side, with the Supremes making decisions that clarify what the second amendment means.
I do not believe for a second that the President or the current administration or the Congress will try to or succeed in taking away our guns.
I strenuously object to Wayne, making >$800 k a year, lying to the folk and attempting to and succeeding in scaring the population.
In the first American Rifleman, June 1, 1923, there's the article "A Law For The Outlaw" by Allyn H. Tedmon, a fictional account of the future, 1925, when there is imposed a $100 tax on each pistol sold and a $1 tax on each cartridge sold.
The NRA has been selling the same song and scaring the shooting public in the Rifleman since 1923.
There are better ways to oppose the anti-gun folks, and talking about the President being a skid mark on underwear ain't the best way.I'm not allowed to call folk "goons" any more, but the temptation is strong.
joe b. FACT lover, OPINION suspecter, LIAR identifier, Brilliant Liberal Democrat

[steg]

conservative here, but it shouldn't matter what we are here, Personally I come here to get away from it all for a while, and listen to other people who enjoy our hobby, I've learned more about our hobby at these sites than I could ever have imagined by trial and error. It's like push the button and go to fantasy land for me......................steg

[snake river marksman]

Joe,
If you "don't believe for a second that the president or the congress would like to take away our guns" then you are ignoring political history that goes back ever since there were politicians. Governments follow an evolutionary pattern. They start by wanting to help man kind and metasticize into wanting to subjugate all man kind. They can't do that so long as the populace is armed. When a government thinks it can finally get away with disarming the people it will try. If the government in question misreads the situation, the people will revolt and a revolution will occur. At that point the form of government will change and it just depends on who wins the revolution as to what form of government rises from the ashes.
I'm neither conservative nor liberal. For me, my government should deliver my mail, and protect my borders and otherwise just leave me alone to live my life as I see fit.

[Bret4207]

"joe b. FACT lover, OPINION suspecter, LIAR identifier, Brilliant Liberal Democrat "

That explains a lot right there.

[mike in co]

"joe b. FACT lover, OPINION suspecter, LIAR identifier, Brilliant Liberal Democrat "

That explains a lot right there.

i tried to tell you guys......

[mike in co]

i agree with theprofessor on buckshots's post...very good.

now some will note that i have been in some of these discussions.

i try to stick to the subject and not the poster...


keep it about the subject and not the person posting....

some cannot tell the difference....


if i miss , let me know

mike in co

[Duckiller]

As previously posted by a moderator I think it is a combination of Spring fever and cabin fever. About once a year someone or a group get all excited and aren't as polite as they should be or as other member would like them to be.
Draft a reply and read several times, if it is not polite delete it and wait several days before posting. Probably the best way to deal with a completely incorrect and extremely rude post is to totally ignore it. It is hard to do. Sometime I can do it sometimes I can't. MANNERS COUNT!

[theperfessor]

It seems like a lot of my students were crabby and testy for the last couple weeks. Lots of reasons, they're on Spring Break now. Maybe we need a Spring Break to lighten things up a little bit here. Let's shut off the 24 hour TV news and find a gun to clean or something.

[Recluse]

It seems like a lot of my students were crabby and testy for the last couple weeks. Lots of reasons, they're on Spring Break now. Maybe we need a Spring Break to lighten things up a little bit here. Let's shut off the 24 hour TV news and find a gun to clean or something.

Know what else?

It's not just here that the "tone" has shifted a bit.

I was at a retail store this morning, waiting in line to buy a few groceries and this woman just went up and down the poor cashier because her coupon had expired. She screeched on and on how "other stores" would take the coupon, so by-God so should this store. Then she moved into profanity.

I was something like third in line, with one other man (or I thought he was) and two women ahead of me. I purposefully waited to see what would happen. . .

And I waited. Longer I waited, the louder and more profane the woman got. A manager was called, who came over and listened to the whole thing.

This is it, I thought. The manager will tell this loudmouthed, profane broad to go pound sand.

But he didn't. HE FREAKING APOLOGIZED! He APOLOGIZED to this b-word of a woman because his cashier didn't take a coupon that expired in 2009.

Then he turned on the cashier, in front of the rest of us and demanded that SHE apologize not only to the loudmouth b-word, but to ALL OF US for us having to WAIT!

Seeing that the testicle-less man in front of me was going to do nothing, and the two other women just standing their like dumb, stupid sheep moving down the chute to slaughter, I was literally turning purple.

"BULL (you know what)!" is what I started MY response with. I went up and down the b-word lady AND the (also) testicle-less manager for being two of the absolute sorriest examples of humanity I'd seen in more years than I cared to remember.

I got the store manager's card--had to literally DEMAND it from him--and called his home office in Cincinnati. Kept going up the ladder until I got the VP of Operations. Explained what had happened, what time it was and that they could punch it up on their digital surveillance system and see it all.

I'll be waiting to hear back from Kroger. Their response will have everything to do with whether or not my wife and I continue to spend what we do there on a weekly basis.

Bottom line is this:

1. People have moved into a sheople mentality in which they only care about THEMSELVES and nobody else.

2. Bullies are growing in number because fewer and fewer are willing to stand up to them. It's easier to just suffer them, then move on.

3. The number of Good Samaritan strangers willing to stick their necks out for a complete stranger grows smaller every day.

Add it all up, and civility is a dying behavior.

:coffee:

[snake river marksman]

It is this very reason that I have started to actually USE my concealed carry permit. There isn't much personal crime in my area. A few bar fights, that sort of thing. But with the way "everyone" seems to be on edge, I've decided that I don't want to be the guy at the resteraunt holding a spoon when some petty argument explodes and the guns come out.

[montana_charlie]

2. Bullies are growing in number because fewer and fewer are willing to stand up to them. It's easier to just suffer them, then move on.
Member A can make a statement of his view on a subject, which may be seen as totally unacceptable by others.
Management would prefer that the membership not stand against...and just move on...so that we can all just get along together.
Having authored this thread, it's apparent that 462 agrees.

However, Member B may object to the posted view, and describe hs own...with reasoning to explain why his is more valid.
So far, management will allow this level of reaction without comment.

It is at this point where the character of the thread will be developed.
If Member A responds with a firm, but reasonable, explanation of the strengths of his argument, the thread will probably be informative...even educational...for those who read it.
Even if no opinions get changed, it can be an enjoyable contest of reason and logic.

But, if recent history is to prevail, Member A, or (more likely) someone who strongly agrees with him, will claim Member B has 'attacked' Member A...and others will begin to pile on to support one side (or the other).

As the discussion(?) progresses, the erstwhile 'victim' (whoever that turns out to be) will probably resort to names and insults as his ability to debate a subject reveals itself to be weak or nonexistent. At that point, Member B must be careful to keep his reply 'civil'.
But, if he uses civil language to shred the argument of Mr. Victim...he will probably have his remarks [edited] for being 'too argumentative'...and the names and insults will also disappear in the process.

If he had chosen not to respond, the names and insults would have remained.

So, civility is not the magic bullet for keeping a discussion visible. The trick is to leave the contest before you actually win it...because if you win, you did so by being 'rude'.

What is 'rude' in today's definition here?
It is disagreeing too strongly, and saying so...even if done 'civilly'.

CM

[462]

montana charlie,
I hope you don't think I'm advocating the Rodney King "Can't we all get along." approach.

[remla75]

I come to this forum for the vast knowlege about fire arms in general casting in is the best explanations I have found . Knowlege is the most important part of this forum and it has diferent sides to each issue sum like a long barreel sum don't and each has a good reson , I like to shoot . I dislike bad language and untruth it is not need ever Please act like Christ is the one you are talking to am that will solve all the problems

[Ed Barrett]

Lucky for me nature gave me a very thick skin, being in the military and working in the state prison system (I went home every night) made it even thicker, so I don't get upset about too many things. I feel sorry for the people who can't understand why everyone doesn't agree with then on all points.

[ole 5 hole group]

I just read this entire thread – and all I’ll add is; I’ll stand shoulder to shoulder with ole Recluse any time come hell or high water.

[jcwit]

Just read your last post here Recluse, post # 35. All I can say is GOOD FOR YOU, somebody stuck up for what was right for once. I'll side you to the end.

[Recluse]

Just read your last post here Recluse, post # 35. All I can say is GOOD FOR YOU, somebody stuck up for what was right for once. I'll side you to the end.

I'm still pretty much fuming over this.

You know something's wrong when a forty-something-year-old rich b-word with jewelry and diamonds and a Lexus key-ring has to get this vile and profane over an expired coupon with a nineteen-year-old single-mom cashier.

Making it worse is when the fifty-something-year-old cowardly slob of a manager sides with the rich b-word customer and humiliates his OWN EMPLOYEE and in front of the rest of us who were standing in line.

I've been buying groceries at this "signature" Kroger since they opened, and this cashier is a plankowner at the store. She started when she was seventeen and pregnant.

She is NOT on any sort of welfare or public taxpayer assistance, although her church does help her and her son out. She lives at home with her mom. She's a good young lady who is struggling to raise her son and take one to two classes at a local JUCO in the evenings.

The store manager KNOWS all of this, and still backed this wannabe rich b-word because this area of town is pretty affluent and he wants to be accepted with "that crowd."

What a weasel!

My rules for "getting involved" are fairly straight forward in basic situations:

1. If I see the cashier/clerk/employee is well older than me, I see them as my parents and ask myself, "Would I just stand by and do nothing seeing my mom or dad get abused like this?"

2. If they're closer to my age, I see them as my wife and ask the same question.

3. If they're well younger than me, then I see them as my eighteen-year-old and ask the same question.

Bullies thrive on making smaller people fearful. When you confront such cowards, and in such a way that makes it one-hundred percent clear that you have absolutely zero fear of them, you don't even have to raise your voice much of the time.

But I raised my voice this morning, yes I did. I was furious.

So, in a world that is growing increasingly less civilized, I'm not sure what the answer or solution is except to "Take Care Of Our Own."

And here at Cast Boolits, I myself consider virtually (no pun intended) everyone here as "one of our own."

We may get a little hotheaded at times. Our language may get a little to spicy or colorful on occasion. And on some days, it maybe be obvious that one or some of our family members are hurting in some sort of way.

Therein lies the decision point: Do we pile on? Do we ignore and do nothing? Or do we extend a hand of peace and friendship to keep things as calm as possible?

I'm guilty of having done all three on occasion. But I've also been on the receiving end of the last option more than once, and it makes a difference. It makes a difference.

And that is the difference between Cast Boolits and 99% of the other places out there on the world-wide-web.

We take care of our own. So long as we remember that, we'll be fine.

:coffee:

[geargnasher]

Montana Charlie, you're comment about "defining" rudeness disturbs me. I think it should be obvious. But perhaps to many it isn't. I find people from New Jersey and most provinces of Canada to be extremely rude. Do they mean to be? Heck no! It's just the way I experience them. Totally different social customs and ways of speaking. They think "Texas Friendly" is annoying.

Something I learned in college years ago was why all the Asian students avert their eyes when passing on a sidewalk. I thought they were just shy, and often looked straight at them and gave them a welcoming "hello". I was trying to be nice, and when they ignored me I thought they were just universally rude. Come to find out, it was a huge cultural misunderstanding on my part: Many Asians come from very overcrowded societies, and not making eye contact is about the only form of privacy an individual can enjoy, so my "butting in" on their private world by giving random greetings to strangers was considered rude to them! Go figure.

The bottom line is for the most part, rude is obvious, we all know it when we see it. If you don't, go get a copy of that famous poster titled "Everything I need to know I learned in Kindergarten".

Or go read the Bible, especially the words in RED. BTW I'm not religious, but it's a great book anyway.

Gear

[smoked turkey]

From the posts, and I've read them all, seems this topic has hit a nerve on several of "us" regulars here. I too have noticed the tone has gotten a little more shall we say agressive. Not only the tone, but also the choice of words used to convey the thought. The use of many of the three and four letter words seems out of place on a forum such as this. We are not all "wordsmiths" that are so polished that we always say exactly what we should. I'll admit that it would be nice if we were, but since most of us are just common joes who have a little problem with communication on a good day. I will say that many here on the forum do have wonderful ability with words and how and when to say just the right thing. Unfortunately a great many of us do not. We need to exend each other a little courtesy and realize that we all have opinions that do not always have to be told. All things considered this is a great place with a great bunch of people. The pool of knowledge here is amazing. IMO most of us are middle class, tax paying, God fearing, hard working individuals who enjoy each other's company. Lets guard that by using the Golden Rule in our involvement with each other.