Marlin Firearms Co./Ideal Tools ?

[TK Grogg]

Can someone tell me when Marlin owned the Ideal Tool Co. Do they have more/any collector value than the originial Ideal Tools or the Lyman Ideal Tools? I came across four sets of the 310 type tools and know nothing about them yet. Thanks.

[floodgate]

Can someone tell me when Marlin owned the Ideal Tool Co. Do they have more/any collector value than the originial Ideal Tools or the Lyman Ideal Tools? I came across four sets of the 310 type tools and know nothing about them yet. Thanks.

TK:

Marlin bought the Ideal business from the founder, John H. Barlow, when he decided to retire, in May of 1910, and continued it until they got over their heads setting up for WW I production and were taken over by the Rockwell interests (with help from J. P. Morgan); production of the Ideal line seems to have ended about the end of December, 1915. We do not have production figures, but since they ran Ideal for five and a half years, while Barlow operated for over 25 years (ca. 1884 - 1910), Marlin tools are probably a bit scarcer, even allowing for attrition of the older tools. They are equally well-made, and the script "Marlin Firearms Company" is a bit more handsome than the block-lettered "Ideal Mfg. Co." stamping on the handles, but there doesn't seem to be any difference in collector interest between the two makes for the commoner tools like the No. 3, No. 4, No. 6 and No. 10. (The No. 3 - for rimmed cases - and the No. 10 - for rimless - were "merged" by Lyman in 1948 to create the 310; the No. 4 - pistol and small rifle - and No. 6 - large rifle - tools had moulds built into the tools.)

Marlin-made moulds just bear the "Ideal" name and, unless you have the box they came in, cannot be distinguished from moulds made by Barlow after about 1901, unless they are in a bullet design added in 1910 - 1915.

It seems that the few tools supposedly made by Phineas Talcott between 1916 and Lyman's purchase in October, 1925 do not bear the Marlin stamp, but we are still trying to identify these - if they exist at all. Barlow, Marlin and Talcott tools would all show the "New Haven, Conn." address; the Lyman tools, still marked "Ideal" at least into the '60's, will show a "Middlefield, Conn. address" but were in the same Nickeled finish until they went to the "plum-colored "bluing" after WW II.

Does that help? With some good photos and notes on any markings, I can maybe give you a bit more info; but prices are really "what the other guy will offer, that you are willing to take."

Doug Elliott

[TK Grogg]

1. Ideal--Middlefield, Conn.--- Nickle Plated--in .22 Hornet--Looks almost new.
2. Marlin Firearms Co.--New Haven, Conn. USA--Ideal Tools--in 25-20 R-Looks good
3. Ideal Mfg Co.--New Haven, Ct, USA--in 25-20 R
Pat. Feb, 11, 1884
Pat. Dec, 29, 1884--About 30% nickle left on it--Light surface rust
4. Marlin Firearms Co, New haven, Conn. USA--Ideal Tools--in 30 US. I'm guessing
this is .30 Carbine.

All have screw in dies except #2. I has a solid leg with a hole in it, for the brass ctg to go into.


Also: Have four of the old type resizing dies that you drove the brass ctg. in with a wooden mallet and drove it out with a steel drift or punch.
1. Lyman Ideal Shell Resizer--in box Cal. 38-40
2. Lyman Ideal Shell Resizer--in box Cal. 6.5 Mann. Sch.
3. Lyman Ideal Shell Resizer--in box Cal. 220--with instruction sheet
4. Lyman Ideal Shell Resizer--in box Cal. 6.5 Jap.-with instruction sheet

Thanks Doug Elliot for your reply.

[13Echo]

TK,
The .30 Carbine did not exist when Marlin made Ideal tools. Your #4 tool, .30US, should be .30-40 Krag, or, possibly, .30-06.

Jerry Liles

[floodgate]

TK:

It will take a bit more info to identify these for sure, but (1) the .22 Hornet is a Lyman / Ideal, made sometime between 1925 (when Lyman took over) and WW II (when they went to blue finish), probably a No. 3, unless it has mould blocks attached, in which case it would be a No. 4. If all the dies and the loose decapping punch are present, you're looking at $100+.

(2) This one is for the.25-20 Repeater (i.e., .25-20 WCF), from 1910 - 1915, and could be either a No. 1 (mould, but no third hole for bullet sizing), a No. 4 (mould and third hole for sizing),. If no mould, it might be a No. 3, but all except a few special-order ones of these had screw-in dies. These are fairly common in this particular caliber I'd guesstimate $100 +/- for one in top condition and complete.

(3) Probably a No. 3. Made some time between 1884 and 1910; I'd need a good photo to provide more info. Value in this condition would be low; $25 - $40, at a guess, and depends on what dies are present.

(4) Just to add to the confusion here, Marlin used the "30 U.S." stamp on BOTH the No. 3 in .30-40 AND the No. 10 in .30-'06 (I have examples of both). The quick way to tell which is to try a fired '06 case; it will go freely through the first hole in the No. 10, but will stick in the .30-40 tool. Also, the '06 tool will have a tiny hole for a hook to hold the rimless case for priming in the second aperture; this hole sits off to one side just inside the hinge. The attached photo (not mine; this set is from a SERIOUS collector!) shows the setup, as well as what a "complete" set would look like - the drop-in decapper is the little thingie lying next to the upper handle in the top part of the photo; note the powder scoop at lower right. A set like this would be in the $100+++ range, in either caliber; but sometimes you luck out - I found one for around $100 on eBay several years back, though a later Lyman one and not quite as nice. You might find a .30-40 in a No. 6 tool (with integral mould), but not a No. 4; the No. 4's were for pistol and short rifle cartridges.

These prices are just SWAG's; like I said, it's what the other guy offers that you would accept.

The "knock-in, knock-out" F/L sizers I CAN help with: The 310 Shop offers these at $10 each, and they are pretty common - but nice to have as part of a set. He gets $150 or so for the older nickeled tong tools, but most of these are sets made up with some later dies and no boxes.

The patent dates are just from the designs with which Barlow started his business in 1884, and were used on most of the Ideal tools down through the years

You've got some nice stuff there!

Doug

[TK Grogg]

Doug, I tried the 30-06 case in the hole nearest to the hinge and it fails to go all the way in as you said. Lacks about 1/2 inch. Also, there is no hole for the rimmless priming arm. Looks like it is a 30/40 Krag. By the way, none of these tools have molds attached. One more question, what is the thing sticking out of the die portion of the tool? It is on the threaded rod and looks like it could be for belling the case mouth.
Thanks again for your help and to all who replied.

[floodgate]

Doug, I tried the 30-06 case in the hole nearest to the hinge and it fails to go all the way in as you said. Lacks about 1/2 inch. Also, there is no hole for the rimmless priming arm. Looks like it is a 30/40 Krag. By the way, none of these tools have molds attached. One more question, what is the thing sticking out of the die portion of the tool? It is on the threaded rod and looks like it could be for belling the case mouth.
Thanks again for your help and to all who replied.

TK:

OK, it's a No. 3 in .30-40. If I understand you correctly, "...the thing sticking out of the die portion of the tool" is the adjustable bullet seating stem; adjustable for seating depth, and the main die can also be screwed in and out to control the amount of crimp - or no crimp at all. The .30-40 die(s) should have the code number "15" stamped in small figures on the side, and there will be another number on the seating stem which relates to the mould ID number of the recommended bullet - or one of similar shape - which its inner end is bored to fit. The coned outer end is for manually working the case mouth to remove any residual crimp and even flare it a bit to ease starting the new bullet. The fixed die chamber on the .25-20 tool is similarly shaped for the same purpose. The drop-in decapper (look closelty at the one at the top of the composite photo) will - in the later versions after the mid-1890's - also have a flared section in from the bullet-shaped tip for the same purpose. In case the "drop-in decapper" doesn't make sense, maybe the shot below will give you the idea; this is a "double-adjustable" seat / crimp die for .32 Remington (code number 131), with seating stem #317 (to fit the 161-gr. RN GC bullet #321317, or others of similar shape), with the flare-type decapping stem alongside. With the die in the tool and adjusted for proper seating and crimp, the decapping stem is started into the fired case and wiggled until the pin drops into the flash hole; with the handles open and the die pointed up, the case is slid upward into the die and a quick squuze pops the primer out, while the flare on the stem knoclks out the remainign traces of any crimp. The sase is placed into the second hole - now facing down (and for the Remington Rimless case, the priming hook installed and swung into the extractor groove; start a primerinto the pocket,a nd the peg in the upper handle will seat it. Charge the case with powder (using the provided dipper), start a bullet (hand- or pan-lubed, and sized by pushing it through the third hole) into the case and - with the D/A die again pointed upward - a squeeze will seat the bullet and - if desired and so-adjusted - crimp tha case mouth.

And THAT'S how our ancestors loaded their game or target cartridges, often in the field or at the range. Still works, too! Tempted to try out one of your tools??

Sorry - I got pretty long-winded there; but maybe some of you will find this interesting, and - maybe - even helpful in bringing an old tong tool back into service.

I'm TAHRED, apologies for poor proofreading; gonna hang it up for tonight.

[TK Grogg]

More later. Doug, Thanks again. I found four decapping tools due to your pictures and details. This is probably all. Three short ones and one long one but no markings that I can find. All have the modern type pin holders except one and it has a set-screw to hold the decapping pin in place. It is one of the short ones.

[TK Grogg]

Mr Elliot, follow me over to the "Casting Equipment" section and we will discuss boolit moulds. The moulds I acquired will be listed there. Anyone else interested may come along also. Thanks.

[floodgate]

TK:

I'm only really interested in the Lyman / Ideal moulds, and I already have the #311413. But if you're interested in parting with any of the tong tools, let me know, either on the Board (I mainly work the "Today Show") or via a PM.

Doug

[cjensen]

I was fortunate to have the original 25-36 marlin Ideal reloading tool included with my Grandfather's 1893 25-36 marlin he purchased in 1904.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

thanks for waking this decade old thread...Great historic info from Floodgate.