g/c or no g/c

[jballs918]

ok guys i just want to open this up to debate a bit. i have read alot about this and i know alot of folks say alot of different things. i have been looking with the price of materials going up if shoting a non g/c bullet is bad. i have learned that pb bullets sometime melt at the end if pushed really hard. hance the g/c. i was wondering if for all reasoning if p/b for a plinking is a ok idea and then g/c for hunter or serious shooter or more towards match type stuff. i just what im trying to say is that is there that much of a differance inbetween them. lets say you take out your 38 and use pb for plinkers, but you set up your sites for this, then you change to g/c for whatever reason. will there be a big differance in how your gun will shot. i would love to have a interchangable set of bullets. can this happend or is this not possiable.

jason

[9.3X62AL]

Jason--

Speaking of 38 Special/357 Magnum, I don't think there is an accuracy advantage for gas checked boolits until you really start driving boolits hard--past 1200 FPS at least. 38 Specials in particular have an accuracy sweet spot with plain base boolits beween 750 and 900 FPS.

There are a lot of variables associated with targeting a 38/357 revolver and its ammunition that figure into boolit distribution--barrel time, which is longer for slower boolits, will cause slower boolits to hit higher on target--barrel length--revolver weight--grip dynamics and consistency of same (BIG issue), just to name a few that will greatly complicate a search for loads of differing intensities that strike the same point of impact at a given distance with the same sight setting. I'm sure it could be accomplished, but it might entail a LOT of work.

[redneckdan]

I don't bother with gas checks for pistol. I use gas checked in rifle for full power loads. My plinkers are plain based.

[Bass Ackward]

i have learned that pb bullets sometime melt at the end if pushed really hard. hance the g/c. i was wondering if for all reasoning if p/b for a plinking is a ok idea and then g/c for hunter or serious shooter or more towards match type stuff. jason


Jason,

Depends. PB bullets can fail for several reasons that don't have anything to do with melting on the base. It just depends on the conditions "YOU" create when you load them. There are many even experienced reloaders that can't produce top accuracy unless they are running pressures / velocity right on the top for a particular cartridge. If that is you, then life will always be simpler with the GC. And probably a harder bullet too. But not .... "always".

This can depend on your choice of firearm too. Shorter barrels in the same caliber are always going to have more pressure at the muzzle than a long(er) barrel that has time for pressure to drop in the ever increasing bore volume. Any .... defect on the base of the bullet is going to recieve much more pressure to kick the bullet to the side from a short tube. (Same effect as a bad crown) So in this case you would do better with faster burning powders that peak quicker and begin lowering sooner to have the least amount of muzzle pressure when the PB bullet exits. Then just accept the velocity limit that they "will" produce at a given chamber pressure. Again, if this isn't you, then go GC.

And in the end, after it is all said and done, there is just more .... flexibility with a GC than a PB for reloading. For some people, the effort or their results make a GC worth the price.

[NucEm]

Never used a GC for pistols:) But for revolver and rifle cartridges is the answer yes for me. Heavy 357 Magnum and uppwards in revolver i feel the need for gc. In a 357 Supermag DW gun its a must and in all rifle cartridges the need is there:) Could i skip the gc for some of them? propably but when i have a gc bullet i always use them with gc. The fastest pistol i use without gc is a 9mm Luger with 120 grains hardcastbullet and V0 about 1200 fps. It seems that just that velocity is the limit for many , over that and gc is needed for me and most of the others leadshooters i know:-D

[Char-Gar]

jballs.. (what a moniker)...Here is what wisdom I have to offer on the subject.

1) Gas checks will give you nothing in return for your investment in handgun rounds below 1.2K fps. Above that they start to pay off.

2) Gas check bullets in the .357 Mag. and 44 Mag, will deliver better accuracy as the distance increases. Plain base bullets are good enough, but the gas check designs will deliver a mite more accuracy. The Ray Thompson designed bullets (358165 and 429244) are truly great bullets.

3) The use of a gas check will allow you to use a softer alloy in handguns, and for hollow point bullets from softer alloy are just the ticket.

4) I have never shot a plain base bullet in a rifle. All my rifle shooting is above 1.4K fps and that is moving into gas check range. The exception being the 45-70 where I have used some plain base bullets at the lower velocity ranges.

5) Someday, I am going to play with plain base bullets in rifles down in the 1.1 to 1.2 range and see what happens.

[BOOM BOOM]

hi,
My experance is that under 1000'/s cast ww do fine w/out a gc.
this is in 2-357s. 2-rifles, & 2-44mags.
The question for me is do gc design bullets do well w/out the gc at these vel.?

[1Shirt]

Deputy Al, has pretty much covered what I believe to be the hot and cold of it.
With China buying up all our metal (like Japan did in the 30's----now wasn't that real smart), and gas checks now pushing .02 each for most, and better than .03 for the bigones, it pays to shoot PB at least up to the limitations of the bullet. In most cases, I would agree with the 1200 fps, but have had more than decent luck with limited or no leading up to about 1600fps. with hard cast PB rifle boolits. For me, at least, have come to believe as gospel, the fact that PB boolits, for both handgun and rifle, need to be oversized to grip and fit .
1Shirt!:coffee:

[David R]

The more I shoot, the less I want to use a gas check. IF I can get accuracy with out the gas check, then I go for it. Its one more step and a little more $s per shot. I am trying a 30 cal plain base boolit to see just how it will shoot. If it works, things will be good and cheap for me. Just think; Shooting a 308 like a 22rf. Cheap, and more fun.

I get no better accuracy from MY 38 with 358156 GC than I do with a 358429. OK, OK, I get no better accuracy with a J boolit either. Elmer Kieth did it right for this gun. This plain base boolit shoots best in MY gun from 3.0 of WW231 to a max load.

David

[fecmech]

I have never seen the need for gas checks in handguns at all in my experience. I would not put the ceiling for plain base at 1200 fps, I get excellent accuracy from the .44 in the high 1300-low 1400fps and .357 at 1300+ . The .357 out of my rifle runs 1600 and groups in the 2" range@50yds, not great but adequate for moving cans along the ground. I have often wondered if the poorer lubes of the past and use of faster powders( such as Unique) did not cause the need for gas checks. My magnum loadings have always been with H110, 296 and 2400 and I have never had leading or accuracy problems with the plain base Keith bullets in magnum revolvers. Just my .02. Nick

[felix]

Yes, quicker the pressure in terms of time, the more reason for the gascheck to protect the base. ... felix

[PatMarlin]

Everyone that mentioned "Hard Cast"... what alloy do you use, and are you water dropping, or oven heat treating?

For punching paper shooting PB' at higher velocities, wouldn't finding an appropriot sized boolit and lube, plus a hard cast method be in order to push the envelope on PB experiments?

I would like to work on this with straight WW metal sometime... :drinks:

[loophole]

Boys, we might want to remember that until smokeless powder came along almost all cartridges used plain base bullets. I believe that at black powder velocities--about 1400 fps or less-- a fairly soft plain base bullet will shoot very well with absolutely no leading so long as the bullet is sized correctly and lubed properly, and, in the case of black powder loads, the fouling is kept under control.

[felix]

Nitrolglycerin is the culprit. Lots of heat and pressure up front. ... felix

[Bucks Owin]

Hey, while we're talking about .357s, what's the consenses regarding twist rates?
Is Colt's 1:14" twist better with heavy boolits than S&W's 1:18.75"? I sometimes wonder if the 1:18 isn't right on the edge of not stabilizing bullets of 150 grs and up....

I also notice my M19-4 seems to string horizontally with varying weights of boolits, eg: a 140 gr prints slightly right of center while a 158 gr slightly left.....
148 gr double ended WCs seem to tumble somewhere between 50 and 100 yds...

(Of course there's a difference in elevation depending on velocity)

Dennis

[PatMarlin]

The little I've shot cast out of my colt and smith in .357, the Smith liked the cast load I used better. Both 6" barrels, but that was a long time ago, and I didn't know as much about cast as I do know.

One day Dennis, when I'm old and gray, I'll get back to .357.. prolly next week.. :mrgreen:

[Bass Ackward]

Hey, while we're talking about .357s, what's the consenses regarding twist rates?
Is Colt's 1:14" twist better with heavy boolits than S&W's 1:18.75"? I sometimes wonder if the 1:18 isn't right on the edge of not stabilizing bullets of 150 grs and up....
Dennis


Dennis,

Depends. 18 twist is good for up to about 210 grains. But that is dependent on the aerodynamics of the bullet and over all velocity too. The wider the meplat, the faster the velocity needs to be or the faster twist could help. So it would depend on how you want to shoot.

[fecmech]

Hey, while we're talking about .357s, what's the consenses regarding twist rates?
Is Colt's 1:14" twist better with heavy boolits than S&W's 1:18.75"? I sometimes wonder if the 1:18 isn't right on the edge of not stabilizing bullets of 150 grs and up....

I also notice my M19-4 seems to string horizontally with varying weights of boolits, eg: a 140 gr prints slightly right of center while a 158 gr slightly left.....
148 gr double ended WCs seem to tumble somewhere between 50 and 100 yds...

(Of course there's a difference in elevation depending on velocity)

Dennis
I don't know about that Dennis, my Ruger GP100 will average a hair under 2"@50 yds with the Lyman 358429(173gr) and that is a fairly long bullet. The Ruger twist is 1/18 I believe. My K-38 will group slightly less than 4 MOA at 100yds with the 158RN which is also fairly long. I have never tried any heavier bullets in either gun however. I have shot both bullets in other Rugers and Smiths and a Colt Trooper in the past. The Trooper was no more or less accurate than the others. IIRC from my PPC days the custom Smiths usually had 1/10" twists for the wadcutters. I never understood that given the size of the scoring rings on the PPC target but I guess someone felt there was some advantage doing it. Nick

[454PB]

I have never seen the need for gas checks in handguns at all in my experience. I would not put the ceiling for plain base at 1200 fps, I get excellent accuracy from the .44 in the high 1300-low 1400fps and .357 at 1300+ . The .357 out of my rifle runs 1600 and groups in the 2" range@50yds, not great but adequate for moving cans along the ground. I have often wondered if the poorer lubes of the past and use of faster powders( such as Unique) did not cause the need for gas checks. My magnum loadings have always been with H110, 296 and 2400 and I have never had leading or accuracy problems with the plain base Keith bullets in magnum revolvers. Just my .02. Nick
I'd love for someone to prove me wrong, but you can't shoot plain base boolits at 60K in my .454 Casulls and avoid leading and/or poor accuracy.

[PatMarlin]

That's cause ya doinitallwrong and need to keep her bout' 55 454PB... :mrgreen:

[jballs918]

:hijack: eekk this took a bit of a twist. well im using ww and water cooling them. so it looks for all purposes i can run up to about 1200fps or so. so i think with a normal load of unique, 4.0 grains i should be fine. i guess i wll have to start playing with stuff to see on this. i guess my biggest question out of this is if i plink with 38s pb bullet and decide to run a hot 357 mag will i need another bullet. ei g/c. or could i use the same pb bullet i guess i will have to really work on the loads. does anyone have a good chart on grains of unique verses bullet weight. i dont have a chorograph so i'm wondering if i could do this the old way and just do alot of loads and figure it out. thanks guys for all the info. i think this thread will be going on for sometime

[454PB]

Pat: you mean load down to 480 Ruger power? :holysheep

[Bucks Owin]

I'd love for someone to prove me wrong, but you can't shoot plain base boolits at 60K in my .454 Casulls and avoid leading and/or poor accuracy.

Holey Moley!

(And I thought the .500 WE was "high pressured" at only 48K!!!)

Is your last name "Linebaugh" by any chance?!? :D

Dennis

[Machado]

Fecmech, I use the selfsame Lyman #358429 (weighing 171 grains with my alloy)in my Rugers and my Smith & Wesson M-686 with an 8 3/8" barrel. My load is 8 grains of Unique ignited by a Winchester primer, and the bullet goes out that long barrel awful fast. No leading at all. I shoot it in an M-92 20" Rossi Puma without leading either and very fine accuracy as lever actions go. I stripped the gas check indents from my RCBS 240 mould and shoot the now-PB bullet out of my M-92 24" .44 magnum Puma ahead of 23 grains of 2400 with no leading. My alloy is 50% pure lead, 30% wheel weights, 10% linotype and 10% tin, dropped in water. What is your .357 load for the #358429?

[felix]

Looks like your antimony is all covered up with the amount of tin in the mix. Probably a very tough boolit to boot. Appears to be an excellent mix. ... felix

[fecmech]

454pb--I have never loaded at those pressures so I don't have a clue whats needed there. I would guess I'm running in the high 30K range with my mags.

Machado--I run 358429 50/50 lino to WW (168gr.) air cooled. Current loading is 14.6 of WC820 which is running right at 1200fps out of the Ruger. That will be what I shoot till the jug runs dry. Previous loads which were all close in accuracy but not quite as good were- !5.2/296, 13.3/AA9C,10.0/Blue Dot. Nick

[Machado]

Felix, it is very hard, and looks almost too purty to shoot. I certainly don't need all that tin in the alloy, and certainly can do without the expense.