A two-groove M1917?

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

I am going to buy a Remington M1917 Enfield tomorrow. The rifle has (apparently) been rebarreled by the Military with a Johnson Automatics 2-groove barrel.

Have any of you any experience with such an animal?

Good evening,
Forrest

[KCSO]

Yes and if the bore is good they make a good cast shooter.

[atr]

solid ordance,,,,,buy it,,,,you will not be sorry

[Four Fingers of Death]

I've never come accross a 2 groove Bbl in my travels (my mates all seem to have at least one example, but I've never had one when I was buying. From what I can gather they work well with cast and jacketed, but where the normal Bbls deteriorate gradually the 2 groovers seem to go sour all of a sudden. This was how the local old guys who used to use the No4s at the range when they were all the go.

I think with proper loading and care it would take more than one of us to wear a barrel out using cast only. It might end up being a problem for our children or grandchildren, but not a prob for us.

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Sure, I know a few things about 2-groove barrels on M1903A3s and so forth - I was kind of asking if any of you folks out there had seen a M1917 with one.

In any case I'm up to the range this morning to give it a final inspection and decide if I really want to take it home .. which is highly probable given the asking price.

Its metal is all there but the stock is a hack-saw cut-down. I'm going to go looking for a complete issue stock for the action if I do buy it. ~ I'll keep the thread going for awhile to say how it goes.

Good morning,
Forrest

[Bob S]

Good morning Forrest,

Some widgets you may want to find for your enjoyment in shooting your "new" M1917:

If you are going to use the as-issued rear sight, some sort of front sight adjuster to correct for windage will be necessary. This is the issue item for the British Pattern 1914, or as it was later called "Rifle No. 3". It is still available (I think) from Apex:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/M1917/M1917sightadjustermarkings.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/M1917/M1917sightadjuster.jpg

In the photo below of ejector box/bolt stop parts, the ejector shown is a field expedient repair for the original, which had a leaf spring milled integral with the ejector. It was a high-mortality part. The one shown with the coil spring could be purchased from Numerich, and probably other sources, too. Or, you could reair a broken one with a file, razor saw and ball-point pen spring.

The flat ejector box spring at the top is from a P-14, the one below it is from a M1917. The reason I have the British part will become aparent in my next post (becaause of the 4-picture limit, I need to split this)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/M1917/Ejectorboxparts.jpg

Stay tuned ...

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Bob S]

A Parker-Hale No. 5B rear sight, designed for the Pattern 14, or "Rifle No.3" will bolt up to the M1917 receiver with no modifications to the receiver, but you need to substitute the P-14 ejector box spring for the "stock" M1917 part.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/M1917/PH5BBasefront.jpg

The base is positively located by an intergral pin, a boss around the axis screw counterbore, the spring tension, and the issued axis spring.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/M1917/PH5BBaseback.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/M1917/PH5BBaseInstalledrearwithaxisscrew.jpg

The result is a fine target-grade rear sight set-up with sufficient elevation and windage for some long range shooting with heavy cast bullets, a pasttime that I know you enjoy as much as I do.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/M1917/PH5Binstalledrangescale.jpg

Continued again because of picture limitations ...:cry:

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Bob S]

Two views of the PH-5B installed:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/M1917/PH5Binstalled2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/M1917/PH5Binstalled1.jpg

Photo below is a prototype rear sight that was considered for the 1918 US National Matches, where the M1917 was the ONLY rifle prescribed. It was not available in time, and therefore never produced in any appreciable numbers. In fact, this is the only one that I have ever seen, other than one photo in Bruce Canfield's book on US weapons of WW I; in fact this may be the sight in that photo. Canfield says the sight was made by Remnington, but mine very clearly has a Winchester leaf. Adjustment have 1 MOA clicks for elevation and windage.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/M1917/M1917matchsight2.jpg

The British had a similar sight for "sniper" versions of the P-14, but it had no windage adjustment. These turn up on the auction sites every now and again.

Charger clip: USGI cal .30 "clips" tend to fall apart after a single use. "Match" clips are available from Champion's Choice, Champion Shooters Supply, and Creedmoor for about $4 a pair, and they are worth it. Swedish suplus clips differ ever-so-slightly in dimensions, but I have found that they work perfectly in M1903's, M1917's, and all of my Model 70 Match rifles, and they are still available for $14/box of 50 from SAMCO.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/M1917/SwedeclipM1917_A.jpg

That's all! Good shooting!

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[TNsailorman]

I have owned one 1917 that had a Johnson automatic 2 groove barrel on it and it shot around a 1 1/2" group with a good bullet like the 175 grain Sierre or a good 180 grain like the Hornady. The only problem it had was not the barrels fault, someone had shot it with corrosive ammo without proper cleaning and it has pits all up and down the bore. It shot fine but getting the copper out was a 3 day or more affair. I sold it for that reason. I also had a 1903 that had been re-barreled with the JA barrel and it also shot just fine. One of the more accurate 1903's I have owned. James

[Multigunner]

Two Groove bores are very common with the Savage No.4 rifles but these have very narrow and very deep grooves compared to some other two groove barrels. With J bullets mine shoots great sub moa, but I have my doubts about the cast boolits unless I use a hard alloy.
Looks to me as if cast would strip in those narrow grooves. I'm going to give it a try though, since I'm planning on using cast in a five groove No.1.

PS
I would like to try the Zinc alloy bullets some day, they should handle a fairly hhigh velocity load without stripping.

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Thanks for the posts, in particular yours Bob S! In fact, I do hope to shoot this rifle over the distance with iron sights, leaving the "ears" untouched and your information about the possibilities for sights is very helpful ~ I will be checking for some sights of my own as soon as I may.

For now, today, I have the rifle home after initial inspection and purchase. Its metal is all there but the stock, as advertised, is a hack-saw cut-down, complete with a accessory rubber butt devise. I have gone looking and believe I can get a hold of a as-issued stock and hand guards, etc but first I must check the rifle's basic accuracy.

The Johnson barrel is a good, crisp two-groove, showing some semi-rough tool marks. It has been fired with jacketed some (of course) and there is rather heavy metal-fouling in the bore.

I have just fired a cast bullet into my pile of waste to measure the bore and groove diameters. They measure 0.3080 and 0.2990.

Today I will "clean" the barrel of metal fouling by shooting a box of a conventional cast bullet loads, while at the same time giving the rifle its initial accuracy testing. All such testing is with "initial" testing firmly in mind .. all results are subject to the understanding that lots of things are yet unknown.

All for now, good morning,
Forrest

[beagle]

Forrest...my shooting partner has a 2 groove M1917 with the ears milled off. Shoots the 311284 and 311291 really well. I was surprised when he first tried cast in it./beagle

[Pirate69]

Here is a little information on your rifle:

"Now to confirm the Johnson connection. An on-line search came up with a web site (http://www.qis.net/~pullen/Biography.htm) dedicated to Melvin M. Johnson, Jr. He designed and manufactured the Johnson Model 1941 Automatic Rifle, and Models 1941 and 1944 Light Machine Guns through his company, the Johnson Automatics Trust in Brookline, Massachusetts. He also contracted with the U.S. Government to make replacement barrels for refurbishing Model 1917 Enfield rifles for WWII use, and in 1963 introduced the 5.7mm Johnson (.22 Spitfire) wildcat cartridge conversion of the M1 Carbine. Johnson died in 1965 at the age of 55."


I have one of his custom 30-40 Krag rifles that was made in his Rhode Island shop. It was recently verified my Mel's son who manages the Johnson Automatics website.

“...In the early fifties Johnson went to work for Winchester as a designer and advisor to John Olin, Winchester's chairman, but only after he had forced Winchester to purchase his company and its remaining stock. Johnson also had his custom shop located in Hope Valley, Rhode Island, where he made custom conversions of surplus bolt action rifles into `state of the art' hunting rifles by converting them to .270 or other high power chambers.”

[Four Fingers of Death]

in 1963 introduced the 5.7mm Johnson (.22 Spitfire) wildcat cartridge conversion of the M1 Carbine."
”

No doubt I will buy the first good 2 groove barrelled rifle I come across, but as I said, I have never come across one that was for sale. Which is odd because I have bought a power of milsup rifles over the years. Hopefully I will find an M17 with a 2 groover, as they are my fav big yankee milsup rifle.

That 5.7mm Johnson would a nice little little rifle, it's a shame we can't be trusted with semi autos. Be a nice little wildcat on a small bolt rifle (no better than a heap of other wildcats I suppose).

[rhbrink]

I had a Eddystone when I was a young'un that had a 2 groove barrel that I'm sure was manufactured with a 2 groove barrel. At least I don't think that it was a rebarrel job, shot cast very well of course I "sporterized" it, wish I still had it.

[Bob S]

Two-groove barrels had not been invented when the M1917's were made; all were made with five groove, left hand twist .310/.300 barrels. Two groove barrels were a production expedient of WW II, and only for those manufacturers who were still rifling with hook cutters.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

The initial shooting of this M1917 went well.

I fired 40 rounds of conventional stuff - a 205 grain NEI bullet I had laying around in the bullet box over 21 grains 4759.

The intent was mainly to remove the metal fouling and second to check performance .. both goals were accomplished.

The metal fouling was nearly gone after 20 rounds and when I was done with my 40 round box the bore was as shiny as a war-production animal is likely to be. It is nice and crisp with minimum wear even at the origin of rifling - just enough to allow me to load bullets with 0.301 noses.

Accuracy with the issue sights was tougher as I have trouble seeing the top of the narrow blade very well through the rather big peep - my best group was 5x2.400. But that really isn't too bad for the first time out with a totally untried rifle and load ~ besides; it was cold and windy.

I have gone looking and believe I have found some sources for issue stock pieces. I'm encouraged by this and will see if I can make it come together so as it'll once again look similar to "as issued" condition. This of course may make accuracy go all hay-wire but, we'll have to see I guess.

Just a question here; have any of you used just plain cast bullet shooting to remove metal fouling?

Good evening,
Forrest

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have found over the years that the best way to get clean barrels in milsup is to stick to buying ones with good barrels in the first place. Saves a lot of heartache.

[FAsmus]

Four Fingers;


I have found over the years that the best way to get clean barrels in milsup is to stick to buying ones with good barrels in the first place. Saves a lot of heartache.

F- Well .. sure, but I'm a little vague about your difference between a "clean" and a "good" barrel. How is that determined except by cleaning them up and shooting the darn things in the first place to determine if they're good? I just darn seldom get hold of a "new unissued barrel" you see .. never in fact.

I mean, since there were no defects in this barrel besides being fouled it stood just as good a chance to be a good usable barrel as most any other. Now, if it had been dark or rusty or pitted it would never have left the range with me the day I bought it.

Good morning
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

I have been seeking a source for an issue stock to replace the hack-saw job that came with this M1917.

A fellow came along and has offered me a pretty good looking stock but it has a 1/8 inch deep cut two inches long just ahead of the bolt relief on the right hand side of the wood.

The man says it is a "stress relief cut I've seen on many M1917s and SMLE's".

Well, I sure don't know everything but a "relief cut" on the side of an otherwise perfect stock? ~ I've never seen or heard of such a thing. Have any of you fellows?

Good evening,
Forrest

[Bob S]

Well, I sure don't know everything but a "relief cut" on the side of an otherwise perfect stock? ~ I've never seen or heard of such a thing. Have any of you fellows?

Good evening,
Forrest

No. The one about The Three Bears is more credible. :shock:

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[WineMan]

I think I have an extra stock but no hand guards. Let me look in the garage and see if it is still there.

Wineman

[FAsmus]

Bob S;

No. The one about The Three Bears is more credible.

F- Yes, that's what I thought too .. I'm not going for it.

Good evening,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

WineMan;

I think I have an extra stock but no hand guards. Let me look in the garage and see if it is still there.

F- Thanks very much for the post. I am certainly interested to see if the pieces turn up! ~ Post me on the thread or PM; I'll respond as soon as I'm able for possible purchase.

Good evening,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Just a general comment here.

I loaded another 50 rounds for the M1917 after looking to the bedding and making a couple small changes.

The previous fellow who must have done the hack-saw sporter job had enough knowledge to do a semi-good job of free-floating the barrel ahead of the receiver. I relieved the forend a bit more where it was still in contact, installed a 0.010 shim under the tang, pasted a piece of black paper over the huge peep aperture, burned a 0.040 hole through it with a red-hot paper clip and then took it to the range again loaded with RCBS 30-180-SP.

This time the rifle really indicated that it "wanted" to shoot. The RCBS bullet with 0.301 nose chambered with the nicest light witness marks on the nose you've ever seen as the 0.300 bore had worn just enough at the origin of rifling to accept them perfectly.

Groups would run three into one hole - then toss the flyer. Four into a sub-MOA group and toss a flyer. I was frustrated at loosing the exciting groups each time but we all know that when a rifle does this kind of thing its telling us that all it needs a little more of this or that and things will tighten up forever.

At home I once again cleaned the barrel to see how it was going and I found the first wet patch sliding through the bore as slick as if it were a Douglas Premium. Visually the bore looks as clean and crisp as a man could possibly wish.

At the moment, not knowing what WineMan and I might do, I tentatively plan on getting as nice a set of iron sights as I can locate and afford for the rifle, overhaul the wood/bedding and see what I can see.

Good evening,
Forrest

[TNsailorman]

:brokenima:coffeecomThe JA(Johnsaon automatic) barrels that I have had the opportunity to use have been very well made. I currently have a 2 groove Remington barrel on a 1903A3 and it shoots very well also. I have never had a problem getting accuray from 2 groove barrels and take with a grain of salt the old addage that "they don't shoot worth a d#*&" that was passed around by some of the so called "gunwriter experts" of the 50's and 60's. Some writers know of which they speak and some are just full of it.:coffeecom

[Four Fingers of Death]

Didn't the drill rifle stocks have a relief cut into the stock so that they were immediately visible as drill variants.

[FAsmus]

Four Fingers;

Didn't the drill rifle stocks have a relief cut into the stock so that they were immediately visible as drill variants.

F- Tell me more about this "drill variant" version of the rifle would you?

Good morning,
Forrest

[Four Fingers of Death]

I just remember I gave a sporterised P14 Sniper/No3 whatever to a friend who is an ardent collector/restorer and he found a stock that had come off a drill rifle. I am sure he told me it had a cut in it somewhere. I have been trying to ring him to confirm it. I will let you know when I find out.

[Multigunner]

If a drill rifle has had the receiver ring and chamber drilled through the stock may have a scallop cut at the receiver ring.
No.4 rifles deactivated for drill purpose were usually drilled from the top flat of the ring.

There are of course many variations of deactivations.
One lot of DP No.4 rifles that came through here several years ago just had a steel chamber plug driven in and tack welded. Some of these were so poorly welded that the plugs could be popped out with a cleaning rod.
Unfortunately the chambers were badly dented by the plug when it was driven home before welding.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Whoops! I forgot to ring my mate, I will put a reminder on my phone for tomorrow.

[HangFireW8]

I have never had a problem getting accuray from 2 groove barrels and take with a grain of salt the old addage that "they don't shoot worth a d#*&" that was passed around by some of the so called "gunwriter experts" of the 50's and 60's. Some writers know of which they speak and some are just full of it.:coffeecom

Yeah, those "experts" were trying to get gunnies to buy new or custom rifles in an ocean of military surplus.

Not like today. :roll:

-HF

[Four Fingers of Death]

I remembered to ring my mate today. When he was restoring the P14/No3 Winchester sniper, the only stock he could get was an ex drill rifle stock. It had a semi circular cut on the forend just in front of the reciever. This lined up with another semi circular cut on the hand guard, so that when assembled, it formed a circular hole in the woodwork and would have shown the hole in the barrel so that it would not be used with live ammo. He eventually got the correct woodwork (and scope) to properly restore the gun. I would have liked to seen it.

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Remember way back there on the 9th when I slugged the bore on this M1917 and got 0.3000 and 0.3080?

Well, the method was to fire a NEI 197-308-GC over 3 grains 700x into a pile of rags, recover it and measure the diameters. ~ This method works for me making only a "snap!" out in the casting shed.

Well, today just drifting along at the loading bench I got to looking more carefully at the spent bullet and soon realized that the first portion of engravement of the bullet body showed exactly the same kind of extra wide groove as I've seen on recovered bullets fired from revolvers.

That is, the grooves show slippage! This amounts to about 0.015 at the first band and becomes less toward the rear, becoming essentially zero by the third band.

Now, I've never seen slippage like this on a rifle bullet and most especially when fired with such a reduced load.

Any ideas?

Good evening,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

The latest on this M1917 project is that I have decided not to worry about returning the rifle to "as issued" condition for possible profitable resale.

Instead I figured I'd work on the hack-saw stock it came with and see what it might do. This is because during the initial firing I saw that the rifle "wanted" to shoot and I was impressed by how nicely the barrel cleaned up after just a few rounds.

This being the case I went ahead and epoxy-bedded the action into the old wood. The job was complete three days ago and today was my first opportunity to shoot it to check my work.

The loads were made up with RCBS 30-180-SP over 22 grains IMR 4759 and 25.8 grains IMR 4198.

Conditions were lousy; Overcast, wind 11 to 1 O'clock at 7 - 10, and the temperature stood at 40 degrees .. I got out my gloves that I modified for shooting by cutting off the trigger finger and leaving the rest of the gloves intact so as not to freeze my hands while I shoot.

The 4759 did quite well with four 5-shot groups averaging 1.450. Then the 4198 did even better with two groups (all the loads I had made up for this load) averaging 0.855.

I'm quite pleased with this shooting especially in the cold wind .. and with only the issue sights.

Upon returning home I passed a patch through the bore again, finding once again the smoothness of passage liken to a premium target barrel. Johnson Automatics sure made up a good one for this rifle back there in 1943!

Soon a "target" receiver sight will arrive from Ft Worth. If it comes close enough to fitting the rifle I'll cut down the front sight base so it'll accept a Lyman 17A and be in business for long range shooting.

And, sure it is kind of clumpy-looking but no worse than the 1874 Sharps rifles that have proliferated around here.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

This thread seems to be doing a disappearing act from time to time.

Can anyone see it now?

Good day,
Forrest

[Four Fingers of Death]

Yep, it keeps coming back! Glad to see it is such a good shooter. I you have the complete military stock, it would probably bring enough money to allow you to buy or swap for a sporterised stock or a commercial one.

[FAsmus]

Four Fingers;

This rifle came with a cut-off type "sporter" job on the stock ~ complete with one of those yucky rubber recoil pads. The only thing that saved it at all was that the barreled action was untouched.

I have looked for a "real" replacement sporter stock with no luck so far. They were once all over the place in the hey-day of military surplus guns but 1917s are not often found these days I guess.

Now, if some member knows where I could get a good semi-finished stock ~ that would be wonderful.

Good morning,
Forrest

[45 2.1]

Now, if some member knows where I could get a good semi-finished stock ~ that would be wonderful.
Good morning,Forrest

Give this a try:

http://www.boydsgunstocks.com/Replacement-Stocks-for-WWII-Military-s/24.htm?searching=Y&sort=7&cat=24&show=12&page=1&brand=Military

Doesn't seem to be straight military, but it is an option.

[FAsmus]

45 2.1;

Thanks for the link ~ I'd been to Boyds before but somehow never found the page you have provided.

Good morning,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Recent developments with this M1917 are that I had the "ears" removed from the receiver so as to mount a receiver sight and at the same time I had the front sight base cut-down and a new dove-tail cut to accept a Lyman 17A globe sight.

This all was done because the rifle shot so well with military sights that I thought the expense would be well worth it.

Now, the work is complete and Presto! The rifle no longer shoots worth sour grapes with the same loads as worked perfectly before!

Why is this happening?

Previously in the thread I mentioned that the action was epoxy-bedded in order to get it shooting and the procedure did work.

Is it possible that cutting off the excess material on the rear receiver ring somehow caused the action to stress-relieve and warp out of shape enough to screw up the bedding job?

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[Multigunner]

Gentlemen;

Recent developments with this M1917 are that I had the "ears" removed from the receiver so as to mount a receiver sight and at the same time I had the front sight base cut-down and a new dove-tail cut to accept a Lyman 17A globe sight.

This all was done because the rifle shot so well with military sights that I thought the expense would be well worth it.

Now, the work is complete and Presto! The rifle no longer shoots worth sour grapes with the same loads as worked perfectly before!

Why is this happening?

Previously in the thread I mentioned that the action was epoxy-bedded in order to get it shooting and the procedure did work.

Is it possible that cutting off the excess material on the rear receiver ring somehow caused the action to stress-relieve and warp out of shape enough to screw up the bedding job?

Good afternoon,
Forrest

I sort of doubt that grinding the ears would cause this, but I may be wrong.
More likely in removing the action from the stock to work on it either some of the bedding came away from the wood or a chip or other debris got in there so it didn't settle in properly when you tightened the screws.

I'd take it out of the wood and give the bedding a close inspection, then be sure every part of the receiver that makes contact with the bedding is free from debris.

Also when ever I bed an action I use the same method I use in bedding Lee Enfield fore ends.
There should be no contact at the center of the action along the magazine opening rails. Bed only the reciever ring and 1 1/2 inches back from the receiver ring and about 1 1/2-2 inches or so of the rear receiver not counting the tang if it has one.
Seems like this improves consistency in grouping over long shooting sessions when even the receiver gets hot.

To do this easily you would put thick tape on the portions you don't want to make contact, apply the release agent as usual, then after bedding has set remove the tape before putting the action back in the wood..

[FAsmus]

Multigunner;

Yes, I did all those things when accuracy didn't measure up to expectations; no help.

Remember, this is not a Lee Enfield but a Model of 1917 "Enfield" in 30'06 as made by Remington with a Johnson Automatics 2-groove machine gun barrel as rebarreled by the government in 1943.

Since I could not understand why the rifle suddenly lost accuracy and because the barreled action seemed to be not only clean but an excellent fit to the bedding I went looking elsewhere for problems.

It so happened that I got to looking at the bolt lugs - they seemed to be bearing unevenly - at least the wear on the lugs did not cover the rear of the locking surfaces equally as compared to one another. ~ I got out my valve-grinding compound ( in various grits ) and carefully lapped the lugs in.

This last time to the range my results down-range were markedly improved. It is early days yet - plenty of time to continue shooting for consistency but for now it seems I'm on the right track.

Thanks for your comments,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentelmen;

I took the M1917 out to the hill-top range today for the first time.

This is the "real" proving grounds for most anything I shoot once close-range accuracy is established.

Our range runs from the 350 yard "offhand" on out to the 834 yard 4x4 Big Square in 10 steps.

The Enfield sights are a Redfield receiver sight and Lyman 17A front. I knew I would have to use extensions to reach the distance but my range-box has a few assorted items, one of which I figured would work.

After one failed attempt I installed an extension that seemed likely and in fact it turned out to be ideal, extending the peep aperture up about 0.250" from its normal position. This was serendipity because once installed the extra height was exactly "0" on the sight-staff for a 395 yard impact "zero"; Perfect. ( The 350 yard offhand distance is minus about 3 minutes from zero and do-able too. ) The 834 yard distance turned out to be exactly one degree high ( 60 minutes ) over the 395 yard zero - exactly what the sight has available in elevation.

Getting hits with the little 30 caliber pill is always a challenge but with a couple good spotters I soon had elevation numbers for all distances. It was a very enjoyable afternoon.

Good day,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Further shooting developments with the M1917 have been instructive;

I got to thinking about the possibility of fillered loads in the 30'06 - so - I loaded 25 each of filler and non-filler and headed for the range with the chronograph.

This shooting was done fairly carefully off the bench at 100 yards with the installed Redfield receiver sights.

The abbreviated deal on results is that the filler loads did not shoot tighter groups or give more consistent velocities as compared to the non-fillered version of the same load. The load in this case was conventional in all respects: 21.5 gr SR 4759 under the RCBS 30-180-SP.

Standard Deviation for the filler load was 13.3 and non-filler was 11.8. Average group for 20 rounds each was; 1.510 non-filler compared to 1.630 for fillered loads. Now this isn't all that much and all authorities agree that statistical comparisons should have a much larger data base to be credible. Sure, that would be good but I don't want to spend my whole life-time shooting over the chronograph off the bench either.

Anyway, today was ideal for shooting - temperatures running around 78, wind light & variable and some friendly, compatible shooters on the line ready to help spot shots at extended distances. (A 30 caliber miss at anything over 500 meters is tough for the shooter to call! And! If you can't see your misses you'll never find the steel!)

The shooting went very well. My previous elevation numbers repeated very closely and although there was some challenge in finding "center of mass" on the 587 yard "Big Diamond" due to condition estimation errors lots of other targets were acquired easily.

The last target of the day was the 834 yard "Big Square". This is a 4x4 sheet of steel and it usually provides all the challenge we shooters need to keep us interested. ~ If, however, you are exceedingly proud of your rifle and shooting capability there is the 2x2 Diamond set at the same distance. This target will keep anyone interested in long-range accuracy and condition estimation satisfied for as long as time goes on ..

So, time was running out and ammunition was running low as we approached the 834 yard distance. My shooting partner had his purpose-built long-range Sharps in 45/70 with 550 gr Postell bullets as compared to my ( pretty much stock ) M1917 30'06 and 190 gr 30-caliber pills.

My first shot in conditions only estimated by flags and previously acquired elevations was a hit.

Usually a hit with a 500+ grain 45 caliber is audible at the firing line 5 seconds after the shot was fired by a clear "bong" and an easily visible splash of lead on the steel. The little 30 caliber hit is a barely perceptible "tink" and, if you're lucky, a pin-prick of bullet splash out in the black. In the white center such a hit is invisible.

Shooting continued until all ammunition was expended. In this particular instance the old M1917 did better than the purpose-built 45/70. ~ I was lucky today ~ in good hands the 45 will do better almost every time, especially in any kind of real wind.

The thing I will close with is that the 834 yard distance is kind of a chronograph of its own; You cannot hit that target unless your velocities are consistent. Sure, the wind will blow you off one way or the other but if your misses still hit at the correct elevation you're sure that consistent velocities for the load are very close to being "right-on", and that is (one of the things) it is all about.


Good afternoon,
Forrest

[Multigunner]

Multigunner;

Yes, I did all those things when accuracy didn't measure up to expectations; no help.

Remember, this is not a Lee Enfield but a Model of 1917 "Enfield" in 30'06 as made by Remington with a Johnson Automatics 2-groove machine gun barrel as rebarreled by the government in 1943.



I know its not a Lee Enfield.
What I was saying is that after using the method I described with Lee Enfield fore ends I found it works well with other action types as well.

Leaving the center section of the receiver free of contact seems to make the bedding at either end more effective.

One of my No.4 rifles also has a two groove bore. Its a Savage lend lease rifle. The Savage two groove has narrow grooves with broad lands. Most other two groove bores have much wider grooves.

So far as I can tell a two groove barrel works fine with open base FMJ ammo, but can be very picky about which closed base jacketed bullets it will shoot well.

I haven't tried cast boolits in my two groove Savage yet. The wider grooved British two groove bores and other US two groove bores seem to handle cast boolits okay , but I have my doubts about the narrow groove Savage bore.

[FAsmus]

Multigunner;

You say; I know its not a Lee Enfield.

Me; OK, I just didn't get it the first time.

You say; What I was saying is that after using the method I described with Lee Enfield fore ends I found it works well with other action types as well.

Leaving the center section of the receiver free of contact seems to make the bedding at either end more effective.

Me; Yes, as a matter of fact I looked the action over pretty much in the blind ~ it had been a good while since I'd bedded a bolt gun ~ and decided that bedding the center section of the receiver was not indicated.

I bedded the receiver ring and about 1 1/2 inches of the barrel ahead of it, the recoil lug and flat supporting the receiver just ahead of the magazine cut. Then, leaving the action rails free I bedded the tang as far forward as the trigger slot.

I use modeling clay to create clearances in areas where I don't want the epoxy to touch the metal; for example, the bottom of the recoil lug.

The job looks fairly righteous and as I've written in the thread, the rifle seems to be shooting quite well.

You say; So far as I can tell a two groove barrel works fine with open base FMJ ammo, but can be very picky about which closed base jacketed bullets it will shoot well

I haven't tried cast bullets in my two groove Savage yet. The wider grooved British two groove bores and other US two groove bores seem to handle cast bullets okay , but I have my doubts about the narrow groove Savage bore.

Me; Ah! Why wait? Load up some cast bullets, see what you can do and then tell us about it!

Good evening,
Forrest

[Four Fingers of Death]

One thing I have been told from a number of guys that used to shoot these in competition before target barrels were commonly available is that the 2 groove Bbls seem to go off suddenly when they go, whereas a normal Bbl will deteriorate gradually.

I always wanted to try one, but never seem to be around when a good one comes up.

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Resent shooting with the M1917 has been rewarding;

My present load of choice is conventional in all respects. Just the heat-treated RCBS 30-180-SP over 21 grains IMR 4759 no fillers or tricks. The mold drops the bullets at exactly the right diameter to fit the 2-groove machine-gun barrel the government put on the rifle back in 1943. The receiver sight (unfortunately only equipped with “hunter” knobs) repeats exactly to the settings I first acquired a couple months ago.

Today I was the only shooter up on the hill – the other fellows were gone for some reason, maybe hunting, because the season opened just yesterday for elk up on the mountain. At first the conditions weren’t too bad, but it was blowing strongly enough that I elected to set up behind the range-shed. The weather has been dry, so I was able to self-spot from the dust of misses.

The shooting position behind the shed was enough to throw my numbers off at first because the shed is some 20 yards farther back than the regular firing line and the closest target was tough to find at first. But, once I had the starting number all I had to do was add the difference in elevation to the numbers on my data sheet and I was right-on, getting hits with the first round fired as each further-out target was selected. Then, after awhile, the wind really did come up and I moved the sight over more and more to stay on the steel. It was quite challenging but also very rewarding to play in the conditions like that – and extra fun to get steady hits in such a tough piece of weather. ( I might mention that the particular target being addressed is hung from a single hook and when hit rings with a particular mellow tone ) Then, shortly after I got another hit on this 587 yard “Diamond” I took a break to throw the ball for my non-human friend Ginger and ease my cramped body some. ~ Then it started to rain and I had to leave the range with 16 rounds yet unfired, something I always hate to do.

At home I measured the windage at 25 minutes to the left in the breeze that was coming along up on the hill-top – almost all that the Redfield receiver sight has available. At the 587 yard distance (+ whatever additional from being behind the shed) this would amount to about 12 feet of wind-drift. ~ not to bad for an old resurrected WW I rifle.

Good evening,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentelmen;

Here is a picture of the 587 yard "Big Diamond" with my dog Ginger for scale that was mentioned in a previous post.

http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy333/Forrest_Asmus/IMG_0077.jpg


Good evening,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Today has been a good day at the rifle range.

The weather is pre-frontal today - that is the wind is out of the SE ~ it'll soon shift around the clock to NW as the front comes through and things will get cold, with rain & snow ~ but today it was shirt-sleeve weather and wonderful.

At first, before the wind began building up things were pretty much calm and the M1917 was speaking to me;

We started on the 470 yard "Tiny Square" ~

http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy333/Forrest_Asmus/IMG_0075.jpg

and worked on out trough all the distances.

The shooting with the M1917 was very satisfying; As long as the wind remained relatively quiet getting hits in the "white" was pretty easy not only on the target pictured here but on the 500 yard "Small Square" and the 500m "Buffalo".

As we progressed through the 587 yard "Big Diamond" (already pictured in the post below) things were still going quite well and even at the 606 yard "Bull" I was able to, first bracket the scrotum and then get a hit on them which is not too easy on a 6-inch white blob at over 600 yards.

Then, as such things do, conditions changed with the wind building out of the SE, or from the right as our firing line is laid out. At the 648 yard "Big Chicken" I was busy dialing in more and more right windage into the Redfield receiver sight. Staying on the steel at all was challenging, let alone staying in the white.

http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy333/Forrest_Asmus/IMG_0076.jpg

As we continued to extend the range, moving to the 670 yard "Big Circle" I was approaching the limit of windage travel available on the sight. And getting a hit was even more rewarding than usual because of the difficulty of figuring the wind ~ but it was possible!

Then, the furthermost target was all that remained ~ the "Big Square" at 834 yards. I didn't think I'd be in the running at all against the fellows with their purpose-built single shots and adjustable front sights; I was almost out of adjustment already and the additional range would only make it worse.

I moved the sight over to its limit of travel, held to the right by 4 or 5 feet for my first shot and (amazing) got a hit.

Shooting continued until the single-shot fellows were out of ammunition. Me holding off or, during lulls in the wind managing to see a regular sight-picture and see the bullet arrive on-target. ~ It was immense fun and the old pot-belly M1917 30 caliber held its own and more than its own with the purpose-built long range rifles.

Good evening,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

I have come into some 16 pounds of IMR 4895 at a very good price.

Strange as it might seem I've never worked with 4895 - but I knew it was a versatile powder so I went ahead on the deal.

I looked over a few loading manuals, contacted a couple other shooters and decided to try the 32 grain level under the heat-treated RCBS 30-180-SP.

Results off the bench were quite satisfactory in my initial test-bed M70 in 30'06 so I loaded it up for the M1917. Again performance was good and consistent.

I then loaded for the long range silhouettes and worked through all the distances.

I found that the load was less subject to wind-drift than my old favorite 4759 combination ~ I thought about that and realized that the 4895 load was most likely giving me a muzzle velocity around 2000 ft/sec or so.

This speed, using an estimated ballistic coefficient for the RCBS bullet and an on-line calculator showed me that the bullets would still be super-sonic out there at 800+ yards.

This estimated level of performance avoids the problem associated with trans-sonic speeds, where the aerodynamic drag on the projectile is more than when it remains super-sonic or when it slows to subsonic speed.

Now, I've been shooting slow-mover single shots for years where the idea is to start things out right at the speed of sound or only slightly faster. This makes the big heavy bullets less subject to wind drift than if you push them out at, say, 1350 or faster.

Since I found the small-bore 30 caliber to be working so well I finally went out with the chronograph to see exactly how fast I was shooting.

This testing was done yesterday. 30 rounds were run over the clock, providing me with an average velocity of 1998.5 ft/sec and a Standard Deviation of 18.

The SD number is rather large for me to look at since my best single shot loads will give me numbers in the 7 1/2 to 8 1/2 range.

Things are different in the bottle-neck game I think and the greater speed negates the larger divergence in velocities ~ or at least it seems likely or possible or common-sense that this might be so.

Write into this thread. Say a thing or two about speeds, their affect on external ballistics and anything interesting about Standard Deviation.

Good evening,
Forrest

[Me not you]

I had to rebarrel a M1917, and used a JA 2-groove barrel. I did some careful polishing with JB bore cleaner to deal with the tooling marks. It's now an excellent shooter, and will group close to, or better than, 1 inch at 100 yards with any safe ammo I put into it. This includes stuff that scatters pretty badly in other rifles. Haven't used cast in it yet, but some cast bullet shooters "swear by" 03-A3 Springfields with 2-groove barrels. I don't see why the M1917 2-groove would be any different.

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

The first shooting with 4895 went well and I have gone through the first 8 pound can. It was old powder, getting a little rusty in the can (actual iron rust from the can itself) but shot quite well. This was the powder used for the chronographing addressed in this thread.

Now, that powder is gone and I have opened the next 8 pound can. I poured the powder into a plastic jug and took off the top of the can to inspect the interior ~ it was pristine-clean, no rust at all, showing that the factory seal had remained air tight.

Then I did one of those checks we're bound to do now and then: I set my measure to 32 grains using the older lot of powder, then I replaced the old lot with the new lot and threw a same-volume charge of the newer stuff.

It came out 1.5 grains heavier than the old lot.

Next, I loaded a full box of the new lot, using the same-volume setting just to see what I could see.

On the line at long range things really were different!

The new lot elevations started out 5 minutes flatter than the old at our closest target set at 350 yards and slowly improved even more the further the distances stretched out. By 834 yards the new lot needed fully 7 minutes less elevation than the old had.

Obviously the new lot shoots faster. Next time I'll load it to 32 grains and see what develops.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[KCSO]

Have a JA two groove 1917 Eddystone in the shop right now. This one has had the volly sights removed and what looks like Chinese markings. The bore is excellent and it is a good shooter.

[Char-Gar]

I have a very nice as issued Remington M1917 with a Johnson Automatics 2 groove barrel. It is a WWII San Antonio Arsenal rebuild. It is a very nice rifle and shoots well to boot.

I bought it from a fellow this board a few months back. It had a thick coat of varnish on the stock when I got it. I removed the varnish with Formby's to find a very nice unsanded military oil finish walnut stock under it. I just gave it a couple applications of Tom's 1/3 wax and it was good to go.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

In a study of cast bullets in 30 cal 2 groove barrels and a subsequent article on it in the NRA Handloading book (first edition) Col Harrison stated that the best design of cast bullets was the ones with the short bullet bodies and the longest noses. The lands in 2 groove barrels occupy most of the bore circumference and the long noses ride on the lands and are positively guided by them. Best examples included the old Lyman #311334 and the likes of such. He found that the current Saeco #301 also did very well. The sights (pics) previously posted are very interesting and would be a great asst to target shooting especially since the 1917 as issue did not allow for any windage correction other than drifting the front sight. For that I have beern using the sight correcter/mover from an SKS. It takes a little filing to get it to fit over the 1917 sight, but it works very well. It used to be sold for $8.95 and can't be too much more than that now. LLS

[gew98]

Here is a little information on your rifle:

"in 1963 introduced the 5.7mm Johnson (.22 Spitfire) wildcat cartridge conversion of the M1 Carbine. Johnson died in 1965 at the age of 55."

.”

I had always heard it called the "johnson jet". Had a dear friend Dennis Devaney (he passed back in 1991) whom had several johnson jet .22 cal M1 carbines . He loved them as much as his NIB whitney Wolverine 22 rimfire pistols. Strange fella with some as strange tastes !.

[Multigunner]

I had always heard it called the "johnson jet". Had a dear friend Dennis Devaney (he passed back in 1991) whom had several johnson jet .22 cal M1 carbines . He loved them as much as his NIB whitney Wolverine 22 rimfire pistols. Strange fella with some as strange tastes !.

I remember the Whitney Wolverine, looked like a sci fi ray gun, very cool looking little pistols.
I saw a site years ago where they were displaying an updated reproduction of the Wolverine. They had intended to market these but I have never seen one in the stores or advertised for sale.

Recently manufactured Carbines in .22 Spitfire were available a few years back, but again I haven't seen these in any local gunshops.

KCSO
Have a JA two groove 1917 Eddystone in the shop right now. This one has had the volly sights removed and what looks like Chinese markings. The bore is excellent and it is a good shooter.

Sure that isn't a P-14 with M1917 bolt?
A Belgian company converted many P-14 rifles to 7.92x57 with M1917 bolt substituted for the original bolt.
Some of these ended up in China and were imported as barreled actions with shot out barrels for use in making custom sporters. You could order the salavaged P-14 action with a replacement P-14 bolt if you wished or the M1917 bolt.
Many M1917 rifles were given to the Nationalist Chinese, if still in .30-06 it could be one of these. Many of those rifles were captured by the Red Chinese and converted to 7.92, along with some captured Arisaka rifles, since they had facilities for producing that cartridge.

The M1917 did not have the volley sights as used with the P-14, stocks may have been switched around.

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Today was a "hot day in January" ~ So I took out the M1917 and went up on the hill-top range with a couple shooting friends to enjoy the nice warm 45 degree weather.

The biggest problem was mud. The snow was melting and once the over-night frost was out of the top soil it turned to gumbo. Yuck.

The firing line itself was blown dry so we didn't have to sit in the mud but shoes and cars really got messed up.

The M1917 was loaded as before - with 34 grains IMR 4895 and the Heat Treated RCBS 30-180-SP. Down the line from me was a fellow trying out his M1903 Springfield for the first time. He had a Camp Perry tool for his ladder sight and I gave him a few pointers about how to use it since this was his first time with it.

The man next to me had his as-issued M1898 Krag with no help but a hand loop magnifier to set his ladder sight.

It was a very good day. ~ Wonderful stuff to get up on the hill-top for the first time in 2013. The sights on the M1917 were much better than the issue military sights on the other rifles. It has an old Redfield receiver sight and a Lyman 17A on the front. Thus, my hits were more frequent than theirs - but of no consequence since they had short sight radius and those narrow blade front sights to work with. Hell, I can't barely see those 1/16 th wide blades these days, let along sight consistently with them. ~ When these fellows got hits you know it was because there was a Rifleman on the line for sure.

MY last shot was a hit on the 587 yard Big Diamond - which rings like a bell even when hit with a small bore 30 caliber bullet.

Good evening,
Forrest