New Vaquero Again

[44MAG#1]

Would 10 gr of Unique be okay in a New Vaquero with a 250/260 Keith and maybe 9.5 with the RCBS 270 SAA bullet?

Thanks

[hickstick_10]

what does your reloading manual say, as far as acceptable (non ruger blackhawk) 45 colt loads?

You start at the minimum load in the manual and work your way up.

[jh45gun]

Be kind to your gun 8 grains of Unique is enough to punch paper or whitetails and is a milder load that duplicates the black powder loadings of the original Colts. I suppose you could go up to 9 grains but I have found the 8 grain load to be more than satisfactory.

[Gee_Wizz01]

Would 10 gr of Unique be okay in a New Vaquero with a 250/260 Keith and maybe 9.5 with the RCBS 270 SAA bullet?

Thanks

Not if you want it to last very long! You are again in the Blackhawk realm with that load. Listen to JH45guns advice, it is very good. Most of all listen to hickstick_10's advice and follow your manual! If you don't have one, get one. You have a "New" Vaquero and it isn't as strong as a Blackhawk, if you load it to hot Blackhawk levels you will beat it up or destroy it.

G

[44MAG#1]

I have several loading manuals. At least 10 at last count. Alyman manual i have copyrighted in 1970 says 10 gr with the Lyman Keith 454424 that was tested in a Colt SAA 51/2 inch gun.. Was that load safe then and now isn't?
What would have made it suddenly unsafe?
Keith recommended 18.5 gr 2400 and the 250 Keith for the 45 Colt SAA. Was it safe then but not now?
How can this happen?
Maybe what I am really asking is why all of a sudden things are going south with loads previously recommended and that are now hand grenades ready to destroy our guns.
Help me to understand.

[jhrosier]

... Help me to understand.
Up until a few years ago pressures were measured with copper crusher gauges that measured average peak pressure. The new pressure measuring equipment uses electronic strain gauges that measure absolute peak pressure.The old method could not capture the highest pressure peaks as they were too short to register.
My feeling is that the old method worked for a century or more and people were not blowing up guns using the published loads. The changes were made only in response to the corporate lawyers fear of the potential for a lawsuit.

Jack

[August]

Help me to understand.

I pay for my guns and need them to last a long time.

[Heavy lead]

It's 40 year old data. Everything I see and read now 10 grains of Unique is way too strong for what you are shooting. I use it now for my regular Blackhawks, and it chrono's a 260 Keith boolit at something between 1050 and 1100 fps, this is no Colt or clone load, at least not in my hands. Should be upwards to 25,000 psi.
Elmer also blew some SAA's up.
If your going to get the short New model Vaquero or a Colt, or clone keep it to 8.5 grains of Unique.
If you want more, buy a Blackhawk or original Vaquero (that's what I have, you can have the New one).

[EDK]

You have the wrong gun in a NEW VAQUERO if you want to load anything beyond factory level ammo. They were designed for CAS/SASS shooters who get a lot more loads out of a pound of powder than most people here. Go to gunbroker or auction arms and get an Original Size VAQUERO in 45 Colt if you want to load high performance. Your comfort level is way lower than the strength level of the older guns.

I've got a herd of Original Size VAQUEROS/BISLEY VAQUEROS in 357 and 44. While you can GIVE me a NEW VAQUERO, I wouldn't buy one!

I watched a gentleman blow up a colt clone at a Cowboy Action shoot awhile back. There's not much safety level for reloading mistakes on those guns. Do some reading about Elmer Keith blowing up some guns over the years....and Mike Venturino has a couple of horror stories about himself and others.

:Fire::castmine::redneck:

[Gee_Wizz01]

44Mag#1, That is a great question. The answer is yes, powders have changed in the last 30 years and recent manuals show these changes. Also pressure testing equipment is, more prevalent these days and we have learned that loads that we thought were safe, were over the top pressure wise. I have manuals back to the '60's, but they are just references now, and many have great articles, but I use my new manuals to determine loads for my guns. The powder company web sites are also great sources. Lyman now lists 8.5 grs of Unique as max with the 454424 Keith Bullet for the Colt type revolvers and 10.2 grs Unique as max for Blackhawks and Contendors. 45 Colt Brass has also changed, it is heavier now than it was 50 years ago, which reduces volume and increases pressure. You might get away with loading hotter than recommended for your pistol, but then again you might not. Is it worth damaging or destroying a $700 pistol to gain an extra 150 fps? Just be safe and keep your fingers and eye's.

G

[Wireman134]

This is the only published loading data I have found for this CAS pistol. It is a good thing the hords of CAS shooter do not hot rod this shootin iron. There would be a mess out their. It sure would help if these gun shop guys would stop assuming this smaller sixgun is as strong as the "Blackhawk"just to make a sale. I've got two fellas, that were told this very misinformation. See link for Handloader's loads.

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/HL%20246partial.pdf

[Wireman134]

I have several loading manuals. At least 10 at last count. Alyman manual i have copyrighted in 1970 says 10 gr with the Lyman Keith 454424 that was tested in a Colt SAA 51/2 inch gun.. Was that load safe then and now isn't?
What would have made it suddenly unsafe?
Keith recommended 18.5 gr 2400 and the 250 Keith for the 45 Colt SAA. Was it safe then but not now?
How can this happen?
Maybe what I am really asking is why all of a sudden things are going south with loads previously recommended and that are now hand grenades ready to destroy our guns.
Help me to understand.

Ruger will never say any hotter than SAMMI pressures. The is no SAMMI +P standards for 45 Colt. If you hand load you are responsible. So work up your own at your risk. Everyone got used to Rugers strengths, blame it on them for putting a .45 Colt cylinder in a .357 frame.

[44MAG#1]

Now has anyone got any real proof that powdwers have changed significantly over thears except for just normal variations that occur?

[Heavy lead]

Yes, the chronograph proves it.
I remember in the late 80's, early 90's when I was still in my early 20's I had an old book from the 60's and used it to reference some 30-06 loads with IMR 4350. Luckily I didn't blow myself up, I will tell you though some published loads were pushing a 200 grain boolit out of a Mauser Mark X 24" barrel at 2700+ fps, a might fast in my book in the brass' book too as decapping of them could be done with a toothpick.
Essentially if you are wanting to get a 250 grain boolit pushed to a 1000 fps out of a 45 Colt, you best buy a full size Blackhawk/Vaquero, not the small one or a Colt clone.
I no longer use any old data with new powders, and I always chronograph when working up a load.

[geargnasher]

Now has anyone got any real proof that powdwers have changed significantly over thears except for just normal variations that occur?

One of our members here, Larry Gibson, has an Oehler personal ballistics lab and put to rest that question for Hercules 2400 vs. Alliant 2400, using several samples of vintage powder and new powder from different lots. IIRC the lot-to-lot variation was more than the Old-to-new variation in both VELOCITY and PRESSURE, since his equipment measures both. Of course this cannot be taken as a general trend among poweder, but I think can be for 2400..... BUT.......:

One thing remains the same: ALWAYS WORK UP FROM STARTING LOADS, I don't care how much you trust your data, at least load ONE cartridge with recommended starting load data and shoot it first. I've had some near misses using published data, where my particular combination created a high-pressure situation several grains under max. The "but that's what the manual said" mentality is what gets people hurt and good guns destroyed.

Getting off my soapbox now,

Gear

[hickstick_10]

I wonder how many sprained wrists and bruised fingers resulted from people using the original old 357 magnum load in there little aluminum framed belly guns ? Old manuals listed alot of cartridges that were pretty stern stuff. Want more power? Buy more gun, something like a 44 mag.

If you want a 44 mag in a colt SAA style, uberti makes one in a 44 magnum now.

Ugly as sin though

http://www.uberti.com/firearms/single_action_cattleman.php

[healey55]

I noticed that you can't get a color case hardened frame in 44 mag in the Uberti.