I want something, but I'm not sure it exists...

[JackOfAllTrades]

I'm looking for a six cavity mould... (aren't we all ;))

But, I have some specifics. For .45acp, I want a 230-240gn TC bullet like this: http://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/bullets/l452230t.gif

But, with lube grooves like this: http://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/bullets/452190sw.gif

Lee offers a mould sorta like what I'm looking for, But only with one lube groove. http://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/bullets/452230tc.gif

I don't see anything like this offered from Lyman. I don't know about others That's where I need your asssistance.

What are my options for custom moulds? Costs too.

Input is greatly appreciated.

-Steve

[9.3X62AL]

That single lube groove Lee TC design has plenty of lube capacity for 45 ACP loads, if that is your concern. I like the design of the Lee TC, those wide drive bands really grab the tight twists in 9mm and 40 S&W. Their beveled bases aren't so cool, but a 6-banger at the price of Lee tools is a stone bargain.

NEI Handtools has a number of 45 ACP designs, as does Mountain Molds. Mountain Molds has site software that allows you to design your own boolit within some pretty wide parameters. Both companies make 4-holers, dunno if they go larger than that. Costs will push past $120 in aluminum, and more in brass or iron/steel.

[Buckshot]

..................For $150 Lee will produce a 6 cavity for you to your design. Get 2 others to go in and your cost is now about $85 each. Get 5 and it's $70. Get 25 or more and the $100 setup fee is waived and you're now at $50/copy.

..................Buckshot

[JackOfAllTrades]

That single lube groove Lee TC design has plenty of lube capacity for 45 ACP loads, if that is your concern.

Well, that is one of my concerns. I got the 240gn Lee SWC up to 900+fps without signs of excessive pressure. Leading is terrible though. But I guess I expect that with tumble lube bullets.

The intent is a power factor of 215 for blasting pins off the table. With LEAD! There's a lot of guys that are doing it with jacketed stuff. I'm not happy with the performance of the lighter bullets, and from what a lot of people tell me, heavier is better. As long as I don't push them 'too' hard. The TC with that big leplat looks to be the ticket. They'll be sized at .452" pushed by 6.9gns of Unique, (I might develop a 231win load that's a bit cleaner too.)


-Steve

[Goatlips]

Jack, only one lube groove here, but it's a big 'un:

http://www.biglube.com/

Have a look at the PRS 45-250 RNFP, Well proven for Black Powder Cowboy uses. Never used it in .45 acp.

Goatlips

[TedH]

Don't know that I would be so quick to blame your leading problem on the tumble lube design bullet. I personally only use the tumble lube form in light 38 wadcutters, but know of some fellows that push some 44 caliber TL bullets way faster than your 45 ACP without any leading problems. Might look for another cause of your leading.

[JackOfAllTrades]

OK, looking for the cause of excessive leading is a good angle.

My bullets are hard. I don't have a hardness tester, but there's a good percentage of linotype in my mix. Over the last several years, people have commented on how hard my bullets are... With each mix, it's difficult to even make a mark in them with a thumb nail.

So, this last lot I sized at .451".. Leading was worse in my Kimber. OK, so there's some blowby/heat cutting sized smaller. I had some sized at .452", Leading was still not acceptable. And resized, these bullets don't have much room for lube. I have not tried shooting them 'not sized', as Lee states they can be shot if already tumble lubed. I've tried loading them 'wet' with fresh lube, and I've tried them having lubed them and let stand to cure/harden. Still the liquid Alox has not impressed me. I shoot a Lyman 452460 200gn SWC for Bullseye without near as much leading when using RCBS stick lube through my Lyman 450 Lubrasizer. Velocity is only 80fps less with the target load. This is just a two groove SWC. Same lead/alloy mix.

-Steve

[Dale53]

Steve;
Your bullets may be TOO hard. Shooting at .45 ACP velocities, many get excellent results with ww+2% tin with plain base bullets with no leading and excellent accuracy.

Yes, Mabel, you CAN have bullets TOO hard...

The Lee .452 230 gr TC should be just what you are looking for. It has PLENTY of lube capacity.

Dale53

[andrew375]

Steve;
Your bullets may be TOO hard. Shooting at .45 ACP velocities, many get excellent results with ww+2% tin with plain base bullets with no leading and excellent accuracy.

Dale53

I second that. I was plagued by leading in the throat area of my 1911 for years 'til I went soft and rarely had to clean the barrel again. Ended up using virtually pure lead.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive shot a ton of cast bullets in a ton of differnt guns and have never seen where a bullet if sized properly and lubed with a good lube will lead because its to hard. Just for an example my model 15 does its best work. (one hole groups) with 105 lee swcs cast out of lynotype at about 800fps sized at 358 and lubed with a good soft lube. Weve done a pile of accuracy testing off the bench with the acp in 10 differnt guns and without exception they all shot better with harder bullets. That was a mix of colts kimbers sprinfields and stis. We not only did it with the 1911s but with 2 different model 25s in acp and with 4 differnt 45 long colt guns and 4 different 44 mag revolvers. We tried at least 4 differnt powders and two differnt primers with each bullet. Now this isnt a scinetific test by any means. But every gun we tested prefered bullets that were harder. We tried pure 5050 pure and ww, ww, #2 , 5050 ww/lyno and lyno. The softest alloy that produced the best group was #2. With 5050 ww/lyno being the clear winner. This test was done by my buddy AL and I and was done because i constantly heard that bullets need to be soft to bump up at low velocities and looking over all my data and Als to we just didnt see any paterns that showed it. Now I was never a guy that kept real close tabs on my data but Al has reams of data on every load he has ever shot and couldnt find one case where a soft bullet outshot a hard one. Now John linebaugh and taffin will tell you that theres probably not a sole on earth that has shot any more cast bullets then Al and kept any better records of his results or is a better shot with a sixgun then him. I truely believe that though bullet bump up may occur its vastly overated. If you have leading its not because of alloy being to hard its because something is wrong with your gun, the size of the bullet your shooting or your lube. If your getting better accuracy with softer bullets its because something isnt right. Fix it and you will find the true potential of that gun. Ive got handguns that have thousands of rounds through them and havent had to touch a brush to the barrel. My advise to you is to first ditch the tl bullets and the tl alltogether as ive yet to find a gun that did its best work with a tl bullet or tumble lube. Get your self a lube sizer and fill it with a quality lube. My preference is a lube i make that is based on felix lube. But lbt soft blue or javalina are both fine lubes. Cast your bullets out of at least ww with a touch of tin to insure good consistant bullets. Try a couple differnt sizes to start with. Fire lap your barrel but dont get carried away with it and put alot of honest bench time in with your gun with a varity of powders and you will find the true potential of your 45. SOme bullets that have worked great for me are the lyman swc that you pictured and the h&g 200 swc designed bullets. Size them at 452 to start with and go from there. I know ill probably get flamed for this post as theres a bunch of knowlegable casters that believe in the soft bullet theroy but i dont preach what i read i preach what my eyes have seen. I believe the old bump up to get accuracy theroy was born back in the old days of colts and even some rugers that came from the factory so mismatched in dimentions that hard bullets rattled down the barrels. Id about guarantee that even with soft bullets in those guns they werent shooting one hole groups and if your using soft lead to cover up a problem in your gun you wont either.

[David R]

The Tumble lube will work at your velocities. I have shot pins and the TL 6 banger was a joy to me. We were going through 200 rounds in an evening. 25 feet doesn't require much accuracy from the gun. Try to shoot them unsized just like the instructions say. If they will chamber your leading will go away. They worked great for me until I bought a Wilson Match Grade barrel. Then the boolits were too big to chamber. I never had a leading problem. Work up to that 6.9 of Unique slowly, I had some primers with long holes from the gun unlocking too soon. That is a hot load in the 45.

David

[Bass Ackward]

I know ill probably get flamed for this post as theres a bunch of knowlegable casters that believe in the soft bullet theroy but i dont preach what i read i preach what my eyes have seen.


Lloyd,

Oh hell Lloyd, I know plenty of guys that belive that the harder a bullet is the more accurate it is. Some will only shoot jacketed for that reason. The only problem they have is explaining away accuracy records shot with pure or soft lead.

[45 2.1]

If your getting better accuracy with softer bullets its because something isnt right. Fix it and you will find the true potential of that gun. ********!
Ive got handguns that have thousands of rounds through them and havent had to touch a brush to the barrel.
Cast your bullets out of at least ww with a touch of tin to insure good consistant bullets.
Now Lloyd, some of that ain't quite true. Match your alloy to the load intensity. The 22 LR is very soft and will shoot better than anything you can come up with. You telling us that linotype 22 LR boolits will shoot better??? WW are soft boolits BTW.
I know ill probably get flamed for this post as theres a bunch of knowlegable casters that believe in the soft bullet theroy but i dont preach what i read i preach what my eyes have seen.
Yep, and when you shoot enough, you will see that what some of what you've written isn't as true as you think. Just how many handloaded rounds have you shot and how many do you think is enough?
I believe the old bump up to get accuracy theroy was born back in the old days of colts and even some rugers that came from the factory so mismatched in dimentions that hard bullets rattled down the barrels. Id about guarantee that even with soft bullets in those guns they werent shooting one hole groups and if your using soft lead to cover up a problem in your gun you wont either. A lot more going on with those old guns than what you just stated. None of this is a flame Lloyd, just a friendly discussion.

[Bret4207]

The only constant with cast boolits is that nothing seems to remain constant. IOW Jack, you'd be better served by experimenting with alloy, lube, sizing diameter, lapping, etc, before assuming a new mould will be the cure. Personally I'd look at trying some unsized boolits first. That would be after giving my barrel a really thourough cleaning in case there's any copper or jacket material in there. Start with the alloy you have and try it first, then try a softer batch, try unsized, .453.,.452, .451, etc. Keep copious notes and pretend you are a scientist and that all this really matters. Chances are you'll find a workable solution. Then you can pass along what you find to the rest of us. The biggest thing I've found is that I make assumptions that such and such is the cause and THIS will fix it. Whether it's a gun, a car, or a sick horse, you need to approach this with an open mind.

Also, these days "hard" is such an ambiguous term relative to cast boolits that I'm fast losing any use for the word. I have air cooled WW that test "harder" than a "hard' lino mix. Without a little more info in the description the term becomes as useful as "fast", "hot" or "spicy". We boolit cranks need to come up with a better word IMHO.

[tomf52]

Sorry gents, but most of what Loyd said has hit the nail on the head in my experience (although I may not have the lengthy experience some of you have). I was having all kinds of leading problems in the three guns I shoot most frequently, a Smith 5906 9mm, a Smith Model 67 .38, and a Smith Model 60 in .357. The bullet used was the same round as Loyd's , a 105 SWC Lee. I tried every conceivable combination of sizing, powders, and lubes. Slugged the barrels, bought a Lee hardness tester, even changed primers. Nothing stopped the leading which in some instances was heavy, in others moderate to light. I then water quenched a bunch of the 105's and set them up for use in all the guns. Leading stopped!. Had some very insignificant trace leading with the Felix lube, but, this is where I differ slightly from Loyd's position, had zero leading with the Lee Tumble Lube. The harder bullet did it for me.

[David R]

Work up to that 6.9 of Unique slowly, I had some primers with long holes from the gun unlocking too soon. That is a hot load in the 45.

David

Correction After checking records, the load was 7.5 Unique. Listed in the lyman manual as a max load for the 452460, was WAAY too hot for my 45. I won't use it.

I used to shoot the 105 SWC in my Dan Wesson 357. It was the only boolit that didn't shoot high to point of aim. Had a small lube groove when sized to .358. Could have been only my example.

David

[Lloyd Smale]

******** Eh. Ive put at least 500 rounds a week through handguns guns for 20 years or better. Ive casted millions of bullets and you can ask anyone that knows me and they will tell you that theres a half a million bullets on shelves in my barn on any given day. Call frank from mt baldy Kelly for cast performace and ask them what they think of my knowlege on cast bullets. A .22 is so accurate? put one in a six gun and its no more accurate then any other round. Ive seen very few one hole groups out of a single six! My round count per week pales in comparison to my buddy ALs Just give John Taffin or John LInebaugh a call some day and ask them how many round ALs put through guns in his lifetime and what there thoughts are on his opionions!! He tested more ammo of the bench then ive shot in my lifetime. He will tell you the same as me. Aint no ******** in me pal i tell it like it is. Ive got over 50 handguns of every caliber from .22s to .500 linebaughs and like i said ive NEVER saw a bullet softer then ww shot a dammed bit better then a hard bullet unless the gun had problems and even then your talking 2inch plus groups! I said I will only preach what my own personal experience has taught me and thats why you will never see me posting on casting for rifles other then a bullet i like. I am not knolegable as to what it takes to make a rifle shoot cast but i think ive got enough experience to speek on handguns. If your experince with your guns shows different so be it but you will never convice me unless i see it in person. Bring your sixguns with your pure lead bullets to the linebaugh seminar next year and we can sit on the bench together and see what works. It boggles my mind to hear people talk about handgun bullets bumping up into a bore. Why would you cast a soft bullet size to fit through a miss sized chamber only to have to bump up to fit a bore thats larger then a chamber. Dont make much sense to me. Ill go with properly sized chambers properly sized bores and properly sized bullets that dont need to deform to fit. ********? maybe pal but bullseyes too!!
If your getting better accuracy with softer bullets its because something isnt right. Fix it and you will find the true potential of that gun. ********!
Ive got handguns that have thousands of rounds through them and havent had to touch a brush to the barrel.
Cast your bullets out of at least ww with a touch of tin to insure good consistant bullets.
Now Lloyd, some of that ain't quite true. Match your alloy to the load intensity. The 22 LR is very soft and will shoot better than anything you can come up with. You telling us that linotype 22 LR boolits will shoot better??? WW are soft boolits BTW.
I know ill probably get flamed for this post as theres a bunch of knowlegable casters that believe in the soft bullet theroy but i dont preach what i read i preach what my eyes have seen.
Yep, and when you shoot enough, you will see that what some of what you've written isn't as true as you think. Just how many handloaded rounds have you shot and how many do you think is enough?
I believe the old bump up to get accuracy theroy was born back in the old days of colts and even some rugers that came from the factory so mismatched in dimentions that hard bullets rattled down the barrels. Id about guarantee that even with soft bullets in those guns they werent shooting one hole groups and if your using soft lead to cover up a problem in your gun you wont either. A lot more going on with those old guns than what you just stated. None of this is a flame Lloyd, just a friendly discussion.

[StarMetal]

David R,

What Lyman manual you have? Mine says max of 6.8 gr of Unique for the bullet you mentioned?

Joe

[David R]

Starmetal,

#46 page 403 7.5 Unique, 980 fps, 16,600 C. U. P.

#47 same data page 418.

I have tried it, and its one HOT Load.

David

[StarMetal]

David,

Mines out of the Lyman Cast Book Third Edition. Apparently they are alot different.

Joe

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive allways considered 7.0 unique max in the 1911s ive shot 7.5 alot in the 625s though with no problems. If i was going to shoot it in a 1911 though id consider going to at least a 19lb spring and probably a 20.

[45 2.1]

Ill go with properly sized chambers properly sized bores and properly sized bullets that dont need to deform to fit. ********? maybe pal but bullseyes too!!

You've got a strange way of looking at things Lloyd. I guess you just tried softer boolits in missmatched handguns. Ever tried them in properely put up guns? If you try a 7 to 8 BHN boolit in a 44 special, you might find that it will produce a nice bug hole thats little larger than the boolit. You or anyone you named don't have a lock on shooting lots of ammo or the experience that goes with it either. There are lots of people that do the things you named, but aren't famous. Handguns don't cover the entire spectrum of firearms either.

[felix]

May I say that you both are correct in your thinking, and in your results? ... felix

[JackOfAllTrades]

Maybe I'll test with this mould a little more. First, I'll go with water quenching fresh pours. I'll pour another lot with a bit more Linotype in the mix. (In my limited experiece with other guns, harder -within reason, has always yielded better accuracy and less leading when I've been pushing them hard. To the contrary when shooting light loads.) But I'm not looking for Bullseye accuracy to shoot pins. Softer lead against pins probably isn't the ticket. I'll also 'not resize' some -as LEE suggests for tumble lube bullets. Odd, but I'll give it a shot. I have not slugged my barrel. Maybe that is one thing I need to do soon.

As for working up the load, I haven't noticed any of the telltail signs of excessive pressure yet. I did notice velocity differences in range with the smaller sized bullets. I do shoot a similar load of 230gn Lee RNHP sized at .452" through the same Kimber. It's 7.3gns of Unique that pushes that bullet at 935fps. The LEE TC tumble lube bullets seem to be weighing in at 240gns instead and have considerably more land contact, so I'll deffinately approach anything above 7gns of Unique with caution.

Deputy Al, I looked at the NEI and Mountain offerings. Nothing from NEI interests me. There are several from Mountain molds that caught my attention, but they're all .451". Offerings at .452" don't look to be compatible with 45acp. They're moving their facility too, so they're basically out of business until late summer.
-Steve

[robotek]

I use the 230 gr lee mold you listed with the standard lube grove. It's good for shooting pins. I cast them out of soft range lead with a hardness of 8-9. I get no significant leading except in my Bersa and I think the shallow rifling I have in that barrel doesn't grab the soft bullet very well.

[Lloyd Smale]

lets see first all my guns are set up right i wouldnt have one that wasnt. Second it wasnt me questioning your experience as a shooter it was you questioning mine. Third if you read my post you would have noticed that i stated that im not knowlegable in cast for rilfes. felix made a good point in his post. Theres lots of differnt theroys out there. I know what works for me and can prove it many times over on paper. If soft works for you in your guns great. I know pure lead is alot easier for me to come across anymore then lynotype and i wish it was true in my guns. Best advise i could give anyone is to consider both of us full of *** and go do the testing for themselves and come up with there own results. To many people take whats posted by someone on the internet as gospel and 95 percent of the time its more bs then anything.
You've got a strange way of looking at things Lloyd. I guess you just tried softer boolits in missmatched handguns. Ever tried them in properely put up guns? If you try a 7 to 8 BHN boolit in a 44 special, you might find that it will produce a nice bug hole thats little larger than the boolit. You or anyone you named don't have a lock on shooting lots of ammo or the experience that goes with it either. There are lots of people that do the things you named, but aren't famous. Handguns don't cover the entire spectrum of firearms either.

[9.3X62AL]

Jack--

The "design your own" software on the Mountain Molds site allows quite a bit of flexibility in diameters and weights, shapes, and designs. Try an E-mail to Dan at the address given, and I'm sure he'll meet ya half-way at minimum. From my experience with three of his molds, he's worth the wait.

[buck1]

A hard enugh for the load ,boolit sized to fit the gun snugly, & lubed with a good lube. Then shot through good chamber(s) seated to a tested depth in the throat, from a smooth even bore.

I shoot hard boolits well and I shoot soft(er) boolits well also.
WW is about as soft as I go , in a 44 mag.
I have some darn fine loads with everything from WW to BHN 30 in the same gun and with the same powder and charge even the same mold.
Hardness is but one factor out of many, BUT YOU ALL KNOW THAT !!
How hard is hard enugh? Well you can get a rough idea from others test results but NOTHING BEATS A TRIP TO THE RANGE WITH SOME TEST LOADS.
I THINK Elmer Keiths 45 mix was 1 pt tin to 10 parts lead. BUT I AM OLD AND UGLY AND I COULD BE WRONG!


Try some unsized air cooled and aged 2 weeks and also try some water droped.
I think the molds on the market will do when you get it lined out.

Thats one thing about us casters,.....We are a opinionated lot and forget that theres more than one way for carpetman to skin a cat!! LOL!! Buck

[slughammer]

Softer lead against pins probably isn't the ticket.

As for working up the load, I haven't noticed any of the telltail signs of excessive pressure yet. I did notice velocity differences in range with the smaller sized bullets. I do shoot a similar load of 230gn Lee RNHP sized at .452" through the same Kimber. It's 7.3gns of Unique that pushes that bullet at 935fps. The LEE TC tumble lube bullets seem to be weighing in at 240gns instead and have considerably more land contact, so I'll deffinately approach anything above 7gns of Unique with caution.

-Steve

Why not softer lead? It should mushroom and grab the pin.

If you can get your gun to run them I would think 452-252-SWC would be great for pins; thats what the guys around here were using when pin shooting was popular...

[David R]

Just to confuse things a little more, when I shot pins, lighter loads were better. You can send em as fast as you want, but the pins only have to leave the table. Hot loads make for more recovery time and slow you down in the long run. I learned to watch the front site as it recoiled and when the next pin was in front of it, squeeze off another one. After a bunch of rounds, it sort of becomes automatic and I thought "how did I do that?" That is when it really gets fun. I could shoot as fast with a 4" Dan Wesson 357 loaded down as I could the 45 auto.

David