Mosin M91/30 Suggestions/Help?

[ke7chv]

The local Big 5 has an M91/30 of interest to me, the retail on it is $179.99 but "goes on sale" for $100. By the looks of the stock, it is late/post WWII. Are there any special considerations [other than "does it shoot?"] I should be aware of if I decide to purchase?
[New to purchasing]

[VintageRifle]

Check the bore and crown. Check for matching numbers. matching numbers on these rifles are normally forced matched as they have gone through a refurbishment process. Check to see if the muzzle has been counterbored. If it has, it will still shoot, but you loose the ability to recrown the rifle if needed later on down the road.

[Dschuttig]

I've got a bunch of these. It's been my experience that the hex recievers tend to be a little better fit. Most of the ones being sold are round recievers that were made 41-43, under tremendous stress, complete with rough tooling marks. Off hand, I can't remember when the switch in shape was. maybe 1933, but definetely before the german invasion.

[Buckshot]

I have 5 M91/30's and 2 of'em were from Big 5. One is a Hex action. Of course 2 examples from the millions made isn't representative but the Hex actioned rifle (dated 1929) has the largest barrel dimensions @ .303x.314" and a 1943 rifle has the tightest. It was made during the 'Dark Times' of the USSR yet has the tightest barrel dimensions @ .301" x .312".

The 1943 dated rifle is by far the roughest externally. They obviously were pushing their tools to the limit, but the internals appear to be as well made as any. Another is a Finn pickup rifle which had their finger grooved 2 piece stock and is counterbored and has shot by far the tightest group shot to date, but that was with paper patched slugs. I'm danged if I'm going to spend the time and headache paper paching 30 cal boolits for plinking ammo! :-)

All these rifles being sold by Big 5 are arsenal reworks. Everyone I've ever seen had the bolt force matched. Some will match on the action and magazine assembly (if the mag is even numbered at all). The two local Big 5 stores will NOT let you run a patch down the barrels to check them, and the store closest to me used to have a cable tie over the bolt and thorugh the triggerguard. They seem to have stopped doing that now so you can at least pull the bolt.

These rifles as 'run of the mill' production were never ment to be target rifles, however some ended up being exceptional. With iron sights and issue triggers and no cast boolit or time consuming case prep voo-doo if I can get 5 rounds to run 1.5" at 50 yards I'm happy with it.

................Buckshot

[Dschuttig]

I'm kinda wondering what the price would drop to if Russia were to release thier stockpiles of these. Most, if not all of the ones coming in now are from Romania and some of the other sattelite states. I would thing that the motherload is in Russia considering they made about 20 something million of these.

[Dutch4122]

I've also heard that Russia is sitting on the remaining Winchester 1895 Infantry rifles chambered in 7.62x54r. These rifles were built to accept Mosin Nagant stripper clips. Apparently they have a good idea of the demand these will be in if they are released on the open market here. Talk on the Milsurp boards is that Russia wants a premium price for them and none of the distributors is willing to pay that sum.:groner:

[Dschuttig]

Has the russian goverment released any of thier surplus yet? All of the current "russian" stuff is coming from cash straped former sattelite states.

[dualsport]

Just for the record, I have seen two MNs from Big 5 that were all matching. One I bought, the other I saw today at the range. The poor guy that had it was clueless as they come. He set the sight on 10 thinking that meant 100 yds., I told him it meant 1000 and explained the hot water thing. It was actually a pretty nice gun, not near as rough as usual.

[Lead Fred]

A lot of the milsurp I see at Big 5 are parts guns.
I see 91/30s for $100-125 at every gun show.

You really have to learn the models, and which ones to get, and how to know good from bad

[Linstrum]

The change from hex to round receivers was in 1936 and both kinds were made that year. The date on the barrel is NOT the receiver manufacture date, although in Russian rifles they are quite often the same. The receiver date is out of sight on the underside of the tang behind the rear-most receiver mounting screw hole. The date can be one, two, or four digits. Single digit dates were used at first and are ambiguous since "1" can be either 1891 or 1901. There are two types of round receivers, the "high wall" made from 1936 to about 1941, and the "low wall" made after that. The "wall" refers to the left side of the bolt/cartridge well and the high wall type has a broad flat area on top of the left side and the low wall has this broad flat area missing, making the left side wall of the bolt/cartridge well lower on later rifles.

The best as well as the rarest Mosin-Nagants are the Finland rebuilds and they were all built into 3/4 minute or better shooters for the Finland Civil Guard. Finns can be told apart from Russian rifles by the receiver and barrel marks plus minor variations in stocks and sights. The Finns stamped their barrels with "SA" inside a square, SA stands for Suomen Armia, which means Finland Army. The barrels were also marked with either a "T" inside a triangle for Tikkakoski, which means Woodpecker Falls (the name of the barrel factory), or a gear symbol that is the logo for SAKO. If a Mosin-Nagant doesn't have the "SA" inside a square along with either the "T" inside a triangle or the gear logo, then it isn't a Finn rebuild. Even though most Russian rifles aren't 3/4 minute shooters there are some darned good ones around. The barrels are easy to free float using paper shims between the receiver and stock and the wooden hand guards can be inletted with a sharp pocket knife if they need it. All Finn rifles have been free-floated but might need checking since wood warps after 70 years. I have eight Mosin-Nagants and it only took me about half an hour each to free float the barrels that needed it. Hard plastic sheet cut from 2-liter plastic pop bottles can be used instead of high quality oiled paper to make thicker receiver shims for free floating jobs. The Finns used brass shims cut from cartridges.

As far as Russian-made rifles go, the steel used before about 1932 is okay, but U.S. billionaire financier Armand Hammer loaned the Russian government the money to build the most modern steel mills back then, and after about 1934 the steel used for Mosin-Nagants was as good as any made now. The Russians did pay Armand Hammer back, by the way. The Finns knew about the better steel and for quite a few of their sniper rifles they chose Russian receivers made after the better steel was available since the Finns loaded some of their long-range sniper ammo up to 3600 atmospheres pressure, which is about 53,000 psi. Finn Mosin-Nagant rifles built for high pressure ammo were marked with "36" or "3600" on the barrel and the barrels were made from a special alloy with a dark red wine colored finish instead of the usual black finish. The Finn Mosin-Nagants were probably the most accurate “ground pounder” grade rifles in the world during World War Two because of their high accuracy requirement before being issued to their soldiers.

The photos are of:

(1) Finn "SA in a box" and "T inside a triangle" marks
(2) later low wall round receiver Russian model 91/59 carbine dated 1942 [top] and early high wall round receiver Russian model 91/30 dated 1939 [bottom]
(3) 3600 atmospheres high pressure marked barrel installed on a 1936 high quality steel hex receiver. The barrel is dated 1944 and this hex receiver rifle is a Finn sniper model 91/30.

Five days ago I paid $105 for a pristine Russian 91/30 with both barrel and receiver dated 1939. It is a 2-inch at 100 yard shooter with my hand loads. Its barrel is a bright un-pitted 0.3000" x 0.3124" and pretty tight for Russian Mosin-Nagants. I have two "beaver chewed" Russian 91/59 carbines dated 1942 with bores that measure 0.303" x 0.315". The so-called "beaver chewed" machining is indicative of dull tools run too fast and is from the period when the German army was attacking Stalingrad and rifles had to be made as fast as possible.

Hope this helps.


rl751

[nicholst55]

I bought a $79 Mosin from J&G Sales shortly before I came overseas in 2008. It was freshly rearsenaled before it went into storage, and is in excellent condition - for what it is. It was built in 1942, and the exterior of the receiver is rougher than a cob. I would say that the barrel at least appears to be brand new; I seriously doubt that it has ever been fired, or not more than a box or two of ammo, and properly cleaned and preserved afterwards. This just goes to show that they are still out there in VG or better condition - you just have to look, or else get lucky (like I did).

[Three44s]

I jumped in with both feet and got 2 M44s from "five" ...... then a friend told me everyone he'd played with keyholed.

The next ones I bought were two 91/30's ....... both of them shoot like house a fires!

Lastly, I bought a M38. It's counterbored. It was the most expensive @89 bucks.

I never could get past the grease and had to just punt on each of these rifles ..... I figured that what I lacked in decision making ability ...... I'd make up in numbers .... and would just resell the TURDS ....... or use them for parts.

My score thus far ........ no turds! The M44s don't keyhole and the M38 shoots golf balls with original sights and .308" J-words so how can I complain and be listened to?

If I had it to do all over again: Two 91/30's and Two M38's ........ the "38" is lighter and a trim package compared to the M44 but after you get all the front end cleaned up on a 44 its close to a 38.

My only wish is that I'd gone over to milsurps much ........ much sooner!



Three 44s

[Linstrum]

Hey, dualsport, that was a good thing you did about telling the guy to use hot water to clean out his rifle. Too bad a few tens of thousands of other shooters don't know that.

The biggest and worst Mosin-Nagant :evil: "killer" :evil: is the cheap and therefore highly attractive 7.62x54R corrosive ammo coming in from former Soviet Bloc countries. I have seen too many Finn rifles that once upon a time HAD accuracy that you can't touch in any current production rifle for usually less than $1200 just totally destroyed by five rounds of the cheap corrosive ammo. A typical naive owner will get one of these fantastic pieces of history, shoot one five round magazine load of ammo, and put it away without so much as looking at it. :groner: After a few days or weeks these former 1/2" to 3/4" at 100 yard shooters are no better than an old rotted-out sewer pipe tied on a tree limb with some bailing wire. :violin:

What used to drive this destruction is that Norma and Lapua used to be the only non-corrosive 7.62X54R ammo makers in the world and their stuff sold for $2.50 or more per round, so guess what the only 7.62X54R ammo ammo was that shooters could afford? Sellier & Bellot came on board about twelve years ago and Cheaper Than Dirt imported it, which made things a lot better, but the Bulgarian steel cased corrosive ammo in 880-round Spam cans was still 1/3 the cost.

What cranks me out of shape [smilie=b: is that some importers got the Finn rifles and test fired them with corrosive ammo and then didn't wash out the bores with water. The potassium chloride residue IS NOT removed by Hoppe's or any other three-wipes-and-you're-done non-polar solvent bore cleaner meant for cleaning up non-corrosive ammo residue. Potassium chloride is the culprit and it only comes out with a polar solvent, namely lots of water; cold water works but hot water is better. I won't use corrosive ammo and when I reload brass that used corrosive priming I boil out the brass first since the potassium chloride residue will blow out of contaminated cartridges into the bore!


rl752

[bob208]

go to some gun shows and look around. a little over a year ago i picked up a nice round reciver 91-30 all matching even the bolt is stamped. with cleaning kit, bayonet oiler and sling for $95 out the door. it has a very good bore the muzzle has been counter bored. the dealer had about 12 left when i got mine.

[higgins]

Pick the one(s) with the best bore and muzzle. Then among those pick the one(s) with the smoothest bolt lift when cocking. Bolt lift on a cocked bolt doesn't count-it's the cocking stroke that binds on many of these rifles. Combine the stiff cocking lift with a fired steel case in the chamber and it can be difficult. I've seen MNs with bolt lift that ranges from pretty smooth to "be sure and take your leather mallet to the range" difficult. If you shoot surplus ammo, assume it is all corrosive regardless what the seller tells you; they're just passing on what the manager or wholesaler said, who probably knows little about European surplus ammo. Clean with plenty of hot soapy water including the bolt face and chamber and you shouldn't have any problems. Be sure and immediately oil the washed parts to prevent "normal" rusting of the unprotected steel. I think you will enjoy the whole surplus rifle experience, especially if you have a bit of interest in the historic aspects of it to begin with. Look at 7.62x54R.net for a lot of good information on rifles and ammo for the beginner MN shooter.

[dualsport]

I got a couple cans of the Russiam surplus ammo from Sportsmans Guide. It's the cheapest price I could find, about .20 a round. I was surprised to see it is clean, looks like new, copper washed steel case 147 gr. steel core. It is way better ammo than I expected. Made in '83, I think. The amazing thing was the accuracy, I could hit a coke can at 100 yds. most of the time, probably could have done better but for the horrible trigger on my gun, the worst I ever pulled.

[Linstrum]

Hi, dualsport, hitting a pop can at 100 yards with iron sights is darned good shooting for sure! The Finn armorers replaced the sloppy Russian trigger mechanism with ones that are a lot better. One type of trigger mechanism the Finns designed uses a roller to disengage the sear, and I really like its smooth tight feel.

The military ammo coming in from Eastern European countries can be surprisingly accurate like you found out. If the rifles are cared for afterward to prevent corrosion there is nothing wrong with that ammo at all. My avoidance of using corrosive ammo is a personal choice since I don't like spending the time it takes to wash and dry my guns. About six years ago I built a rifle vacuum to dry out my washed rifles and it made that part real easy since all I had to do was pour hot water down the bore, scrub out with a bore brush a few times, rinse it out a few more times, and then finally put the rifle in the vacuum chamber to pull a 29-inch vacuum on it for an hour or so to boil out the water. After vacuum drying, I oiled up everything real good with high quality multi-weight engine oil. Good engine oils have corrosion inhibitors that work great for preserving guns and I have been using that stuff for about forty-five years. I stopped using the rifle vacuum because my vacuum pump bit the dust and replacing it is kind of expensive. I used an air conditioner/refrigeration system vacuum pump that is used for dehydrating refrigeration systems. Water boils at about room temperature in a 29-inch mercury column vacuum, so it dries out wood and gets every bit of water trapped down inside holes, crevices, screw threads, and wherever.

I got my first Mosin-Nagant back in 1964 from Sears & Roebuck for $9.99, which was a day's wages at that time - about $60 now. That rifle was amazingly accurate and I upset a lot of older guys pretty good because I out-shot them. There I was, a young punk kid still wet behind the ears, and I was doing better with my ugly $10 "Commie piece of junk" than these guys were with their classic good-looking pre-64 Winchester M70s, Remington 700 BDLs, '03A3s, and whatever. There is a trick I used that makes hitting a pop can a lot easier. I set a pop can on top of a 12"x18"x24" wooden lemon picker's box stood up on its end. The trick is to be real sure that the pop can is exactly centered on top of the box and then aim just over the top center of the box, which can be seen much easier than the pop can since the front sight post pretty much covers up the can.


rl753

[Multigunner]

I've also heard that Russia is sitting on the remaining Winchester 1895 Infantry rifles chambered in 7.62x54r. These rifles were built to accept Mosin Nagant stripper clips. Apparently they have a good idea of the demand these will be in if they are released on the open market here. Talk on the Milsurp boards is that Russia wants a premium price for them and none of the distributors is willing to pay that sum.:groner:
Years ago I saw a documentary on arms smugglers, and they showed a police sting survelance video of a bunch of smugglers off loading rifles at some back country meeting place.
I expected AK or MN rifles but when they opened up the truck and started unloading piles of Winchester Mod 95 Carbines my jaw dropped.
The guns were a bit beat up but looked servicable. Not in crates just stacked like cord wood in an old truck.

Theres apparently a cottage industry in digging up hidden or caved in weapons caches left over from WW2. Sometimes the small caches were so well camoflaged that when whoever hid them got whacked no body could find them and they became part of the landscape.

Some of the Win 95 rifles left from WW1 were apparently given to partizans, there are russian propaganda films showing partizans carrying these.

[dualsport]

OK, I was exagerating a little bit! By "most of the time" I meant "a lot of the time". Scared hell out of it "most of the time". I mounted a Bushnell Elite 2x6 Firefly LER scope on a scout mount which helped a lot. Now I've taken it off and will put the rear sight back on, the scope drives me nuts, gotta line up your head just right or no-go. I did shoot a few for group at 100, hovered around 3" with a few zingers, due I think to the difficult trigger. The rifle and ammo (both Russian) gave me the feeling there was a lot of potential there, if other factors were handled. I know I sure wouldn't want somebody shooting it at me. I will be trying the new NOE 316299 in it soon.

[WineMan]

I have one of the Finn M39 "Antiques". It has a nice but schizophrenic trigger pull.

They say in target shooting to be surprised by the rifle firing and this one is the best at this. One time it takes up and fires normally the next time just past the take up Bang! Sometimes it goes almost full travel before ignition. Not really spooky but annoying as hell.

It has never gone off without a finger on the trigger but I should try to set it off by banging the butt on the floor one of these days (empty of course). The sear, bolt and trigger parts all look and fit normally although it has a bit of slop/movement just before the bolt is in full engagement when closing it.

Mosins have the worst safety although when engaged it is very positive. This rifle only gets loaded with the barrel down range and no other time.

Wineman

[Multigunner]

Next time I dig through my old American Rifleman magazines I see if I can find an article which had drawings of how the Soviets altered the MN trigger for use as a match rifle.

[dualsport]

I'd really like to see that article.

[ke7chv]

I decided Big 5 probably wasn't the best place and went to J&G in Prescott. I ended up with a Tula Armory 1930 Hex Receiver with matching bold and receiver and a barrel that shines like a mirror with no blemishes all for $90.

[Linstrum]

All right, sweet deal! The hex receiver I think is the best looking of the three common types made - it is one of the long-barreled classics!

Just remember that if you use the inexpensive Soviet Bloc steel cartridge case ammo to wash out the barrel with hot water right after you are done to keep that bore the way it is. I reload all my own 7.62x54R ammo now, so it isn't a problem I ever have to worry about.

Your Mosin-Nagent is a great cast boolit shooter and there are all sorts of load combinations you can use, from 46 grain 0.315" round balls with 4 grains Red Dot, Green Dot, Unique, Bullseye, 700X, etc. "mouse loads" on up to 180 grain and 220 grain wheel weight gas check loads with IMR4895, IMR4350, IMR5010, and WC860. Your rifle is just as versatile as a .30-06.


rl758

[mike in co]

All right, sweet deal! The hex receiver I think is the best looking of the three common types made - it is one of the long-barreled classics!

Just remember that if you use the inexpensive Soviet Bloc steel cartridge case ammo to wash out the barrel with hot water right after you are done to keep that bore the way it is. I reload all my own 7.62x54R ammo now, so it isn't a problem I ever have to worry about.

Your Mosin-Nagent is a great cast boolit shooter and there are all sorts of load combinations you can use, from 46 grain 0.315" round balls with 4 grains Red Dot, Green Dot, Unique, Bullseye, 700X, etc. "mouse loads" on up to 180 grain and 220 grain wheel weight gas check loads with IMR4895, IMR4350, IMR5010, and WC860. Your rifle is just as versatile as a .30-06.


rl758


did you go to the nmgc gun show at the expo the begining of the month ??
i only do that one show down there each yr...
mike in co

[Linstrum]

Hi, mike; no, I haven't been outside of Otero and Lincoln Counties for over a year and a half. We don't have anything like that locally, but we do have several pretty good smaller shows locally at the Otero County Fairgrounds and across town at the Civic Center that attract about 100 vendors, although there are more and more art dealers, hand tool sellers, and knife makers showing up.


rl759