Tips for casting RB?????

[JIMinPHX]

Hi Guys,
I've been casting boolits for modern pistols & rifles for a couple of years now & I'm pretty happy with the way that they are turning out. I just started using a Lee mold to cast round balls for a cap & ball revolver & it's giving me a little trouble. I'm having some problems getting complete fill out & I'm getting enough lead spatter in my forcing cone gap to jam the revolver after just 6 shots. That never happened with the hundreds of factory swaged balls that I put through the gun. The fill out isn't terrible, but I get some squigly marks on about 10% of them & the tops of the balls, up near the sprue mark are sometimes not fully filled out, even though I'm pouring plenty of sprue on top & even tried pressure casting with a ladle. I'm hoping for a little helpful advice from some of the seasoned front stuffer shooters out there.

For starters, I'm using straight lead that used to be cable sheathing. It comes up around 6-6.5 bnh, so it's pretty soft. A thumb nail dents it. I haven't added any tin. Do you think that I should?

I'm running my pot around 730 degrees, which is hotter than I use for wheel weights. The pure lead seemed to need that. The balls come out shiny. Is that hot enough for straight lead? Is it too hot? I dipped the mold in the melt several times for 30 seconds at a pop, so I'm pretty sure that the mold is as up to temperature as it's going to get.

The factory swaged balls were always old & had a dark gray coating on them. My cast balls were shiny. I'm wondering if that had something to do with the forcing cone jamming. Maybe the dark gray stuff acts like a lube or something. Is it bad to shoot shiny balls?

I'm using wonder wads under all my balls. I lubed over the tops of the balls with Wonder Lube on all the shots except the one that jammed (I forgot that one). Do you think that the lack of lube over the ball was enough to cause the problem?

My forcing cone gap is kind of tight for a C&B. It's about .003". It's never been a problem before, but perhaps I should file down my wedge a little to open it up?

I'm using 30 grains of Pyrodex P, which is what I've been using for years with no problem. I always clean & grease the gun at the end of the day after I shoot it.

Any ideas guys?

[docone31]

I use pure lead. I like it simple to cut the ring with each load.
What size ball?
I do not use a wonder wad, I just fill the cylinder top with homemade lube. My barrel gap is real tight, and with all that lube on the ball, most gets in the barrel before the ball.
I do not get leading.
I have a .44 Navy, I do not like the Army, and my balls are .454. Load is 30gns of P.
Sure is a potent, fun pistol. Hits a target at 100yds.

[izzyjoe]

i was having the same problem w/wrinkles in a .490 mold. i was told by a old bp shooter to add some ww to the mix not much 5-10%. it seem to help a little,the tin is what your after.but it's worth a shot.[smilie=s:

[JIMinPHX]

I was using a Navy also. The swaged balls that I've always used in the past were .454. This mold is suposed to be .454, but it actually drops around .458-.459. The balls still go in the chamber OK. They just shave a little bit bigger ring of lead when I load them. There is no leading of the barrel. I just got a sliver of lead caught on the left side of the forcing cone gap this once.

I fired 10 shots total today. The first 5, I loaded, lubed & fired as always. No problems. Then I loaded 5 more. The first shot bound up the chamber with a sliver of lead. I had to pull the wedge out & remove the barrel to get the cylinder free again. That's when I noticed that I had forgotten to lube on top of the balls. I lubed the remaining 4 & shot as normal.

I had a 1" raged hole & 2 fliers on the target when I was done today. I used to get them all in one hole. Some of my cast balls may have some internal imperfections. I didn't weigh them to check for consistency. I just visually inspected them & weeded out the ones that looked bad.

I recovered my fired balls. They went about a foot deep into crumb rubber. They looked normal. I could see the rifling engraved on them. There was no sign of skidding. The contact band was about 3/16" wide.

What do you use for home made lube? I know that some guys use Crisco. I used to use Bore Butter, but it melts in the summer time here. Now I'm using Wonder Lube, which is a little better. I'm open to new ideas though. I'd like to find something that would survive the 180 degrees that my car gets up to in July.

[docone31]

Dang Dude! .457 in those holes? Hope the rammng arm does not break.
Get a .454 mold from Lee and enjoy the day.
My lube,
55% beeswax, 40% Olive Oil. The rest I either use Beeswax or Olive oil depending on the temperature.
The pistol calls for .451s .454s are ok, .457s that is not a fun day at the range! should definately grab the rifleing though.
Go .454. Loads really easily. Nice ring at the top.
They are a nice shooting pistol. Good feel, aims real easily. Just plain a good pistol.
I want to make paper cartridges for it.

[mooman76]

You could add a little tin for fill out and I woulf turn the heat up some more. The wrinkles don't bother me. It doesn't really affect the ball especially in revolver where it gets swagged in anyway. As far as the mould dropping big I have heard from more than source including myself that they drop big. Mine drops 456-7 mostly 457. I got a 457 mould and it drops 458-9. I even picked up a second 454mould and it drops the same. I think Lee needs to fix this. I've been thinking of picking up a 454 from another source but I don't shoot much revolver anyway. Maybe I should get a 451 and it might drop 453 or so but with my luck it would drop dead on or small.

[Marvin S]

For me I have better luck using the cheap LEE ladle to pour round balls. The trick is to pour through the sprue plate hole and not hit the sides. This seems to let the air out and the lead swirl to fill the round ball. Anyway that's what works for me.

[DwarvenChef]

When I had Lee molds I found they needed to get ALOT hotter before they droped full formed balls, may be the reason I cast 20lbs of 490's one day :p The aluminum block cools much faster than the more expensive steel molds. I think that by the time the handle locks (steel portion) heat up they help maintain the temp on the main block.

Personally I would rather have the larger RB and swadge off a larger ring, adding tin will make that a chore though.

[docone31]

I like the larger bearing surface myself.
However, I have bent loading levers with the larger balls mixed with wheel weight alloy.
Live and learn.
Pure lead, lots of heat, and they make a good, tight, ball.
Never had a chain fire with that diameter either.

[Captain*Kirk]

The wrinkles tell me your lead temp is too cool, or the mold is not staying hot enough. Lee moulds generally warm up quickly (aluminum), but being aluminum, they shed it just as quickly.
If there is a longer cooling-off period than is optimum between castings, try setting the moulds on the top of the pot to keep temps up. If you're casting quickly, 1-2-3, try increasing the lead temp. You'll know when to back off because the balls will take on a "frosted" appearance when the temp is too high.
For me, .457 is too large for my .44s...I've found .454 to be just tight enough. The .457 ball is made *primarily* for the Ruger Old Army. Yes, you can force 'em in, but what you end up shooting is an egg. Try slugging your barrel to see what your gun actually wants to feed on. Mic out cylinder bore as well. My guns shot the .457's, but accuracy improved threefold when I sized down. It's a lot easier on the loading lever (and palm of your hand) as well.
Also, I found casting with the ladle vastly superior than a pour spot for round balls. Use a small pair of dykes to nip off the sprue as flush as you can after the balls cool. And remember to point the sprue skyward when loading. Good luck!!!

Oh, and I see no reason to use anything besides pure lead. That's all I ever use for RB.

[405]

Well if the swaged balls are acting nice in your gun then try to duplicate them. I don't think the wrinkles would have much bearing on C&B. BUT, while the gross oversize will help prevent chain fire it might be the root cause of the lead deposits jamming the works. Seems it's the only variable that could account for the difference. While swaged balls and bullets may not be pure lead they are for sure very soft. And, that thin, dark coating (oxidation) on lead would have little effect on anything-- purely cosmetic.

I always like to cast the best that I can cast for every gun. For full fill out-- a little tin won't hurt and a little more heat won't hurt. I've found the RB to be the easiest of all forms to cast w/o flaws even with a bottom pour that won't work for most larger conicals/bullets.

So if it's a must use for the oversize mold--- maybe back off the charge a few grains and add a tad more lube to the top? Or, use the swaged RBs. Or, get a mold that drops a .454 ball.

For stiffer lube, maybe melt some bore butter (or whatever you have) and add a little bees wax as stiffener. Or, melt some veg oil or Crisco together with bees wax for a little stiffer mix. Or, add a little parafin to any of the above for a little stiffer, higher temp lube?

[JIMinPHX]

I went back & looked at everything a little more closely. The balls were about .458ish when measured furthest away from the parting lines. They were more like .455" right at the parting lines. That told me that the blocks probably weren't closing all the way. I checked the blocks & sure enough, I could see a little line of light between them. I went in & did some Leementing. I chamfered all the locating surfaces & got rid of some small burrs. They close tight now. I'll try the mold like that & see what I get. If the balls are still on the big side, I may smoke the living daylights out of the cavities & see if I can shrink them down some more that way.

I also noticed that the venting on one end of the blocks is nearly nonexistent. The vent lines just flatten out to nothing for the last 1/8" of the blocks on the inside. I took about a .015" chamfer off the top edges of the blocks with a small Swiss pattern file to open up a little bit of a top vent. I've had good luck doing that in the past on other Lee molds with bad venting. I may go to work on the blocks with a 1/16" end mill & a Bridgeport if that doesn't turn out to be enough.

Thanks for the opinions on higher temperatures & added tin. I wasn't sure about going that route. I had always been told that muzzle loaders got pure lead - end of story & I've always treated 720 degrees as my max temperature with wheel weight alloy. I'll try the higher temperature first & see if I can make things work out with the pure lead. If not, I'll add 1% tin & see what happens. I knew about the frosting being a tell tale sigh that you are starting to get a little hot with WW alloy, but I didn't know if that applied to pure lead as well.

I've managed to get full fill-out on everything from a Bator .22 to a .45 rnfp. I was surprised that the round ball would give me trouble. I guess that I'm going to have to go through my whole learning curve again now that I am casting with pure lead for the first time & not a free flowing alloy like WW + tin.

Thank you to everyone who replied. Your insight has been helpful.

[Hellgate]

A few thoughts while reading your letters and those of the others:

I suspect your lead or the mold (most likely the mold) is too cool so heat 'em up. Wrinkles are due to either oil in the mold cavity or cold metal.

PURE lead shrinks more than hardened lead. The molds are made for casting the stated dimension in pure dead soft lead. The cable sheathing is about as hard as, maybe, 1:20 tin:lead. I suspect the mold is casting larger due to a not quite pure alloy but soft enough for C&B shooting but not soft enough for minie ball casting which is another art form entirely.

I suspect your chambers might not be lining up dead center with your barrel if you are getting lead fouling. I have a Euroarms Remington I bought used that would jam up with lead fouling after one or two shots due to lead shaving off the edge of the forcing cone. A Uberti cylinder dropped right in and now the gun runs fine. The chambers were bored about 1/16" off center. I had a Pietta commemorative SS Remington that would jam up by the cylinder jumping out of the bolt stop due to the ball slamming the edge of the forcing cone. I had the forcing cone reamed a little wider and that stopped the jamming. Look down the barrel of the empty gun and see if the chamber is centered. If you can see a thin crescent of the edge of the chamber it may not be lining up. A flat tipped dowel passed down the barrel should enter the chambers without catching the edge of the chambers (assuming the chamber mouths are not beveled as in the Euroarms guns). Try to jiggle the dowel back and forth where the cylinder gap is to see if it catches. You might only have one or two bad chambers so at the next range session try to get a 6 bull target and fire each chamber into its own bull from a sand bag rest. You may see a difference in accuracy from different chambers. If you have a bad chamber then mark that one as the "open" (unloaded) chamber where the hammer rests.

[Bent Ramrod]

Cast hot. Also pour from the side of the sprue hole with the mould held vertical rather than matching the ladle and mould horizontal then turning to vertical. The minute I started pouring from the side the wrinkled ones became very rare. It's a poor technique with regular boolits but great with round balls.

[NickSS]

I have cast thousands of balls for various C&B revolvers and I have used 457 balls in chambers designed for .451 balls. You did not say who made your revolver but Piattas generally use .451 balls, Ubertis .454 balls and Rugher OA .457 balls. Generally to keep my casting simpler I cast .454 and .457 balls and use the smaller balls in all my reproductions and for loading RB in 45 Colt rounds. The 457s are used in my Ruger OA and in 45-70 RB loads. As for your jam it was caused by a lead shaving when you loaded your revolver. The shaving was larger than you normally got with swaged .454 balls and you did not clear the scrape of lead prior to shooting and it got jammed in the cylinder gap. As for wrikeled balls I get them too generally until the mold is heated up enough. A little wrinkle makes no real difference in practical accuracy in my experience but I do discard balls that have hollows or voids visible. Lee molds are more difficult to get perfect RB with do to their rappid cooling between pours. I set mine on a hot plate to get it hot before starting to cast.

[JIMinPHX]

I don't think that my cylinder is out of time because the gun has never had problems before & has always been a one hole shooter in the past, but I will check that.

The jam was probably not caused by failing to clear the shaved lead from loading the balls. I have all 5 lead rings from my last cylinder full. I had saved them for inspection. I will be extra careful to watch for that though.

This gun is was made by Pietta Brothers. I had ball mic'd the chamber throats when I bought it & decided to get the .454" balls for it. I don't remember what the actual throat diameters were, but they made me pick the .454 & it always worked well.

I've used the side pour method before with a few other molds. It seemed to help on ones that had bad venting. After I fixed the venting, I didn't have to do it anymore on the others. I've already done a little venting work on this mold. Hopefully, that will help. Maybe because of the geometry of the round ball, there is no way to get good venting. I'll try the side pour method & see what happens.

I've cleaned the mold with brake cleaner & alcohol. It's as clean as any other mold that I've run before, but I'll clean it again, just in case.

I keep hearing over & over again that I don't have enough heat. That will be the first thing that I try to correct.

[JIMinPHX]

Well, I tried again & I tried to test out as many of the suggestions that I got here as I could. I used as much heat as my little 450 watt Lyman 10 pound pot would put out & it seemed to help a little. I may still not be hot enough. I'm still getting shiny balls.

I added a pinch of tin (0.5%). The sprues got a little tougher to cut & the melt seemed more fluid, but there was no improvement in ball quality. Side pouring didn't help either.

Since I can't get any more heat out of my little pot, I'm going to try to work on the venting some more when I find the time to get back to this. Right now I can't take the time. I may also mill 2 or 3 thousandths off the block faces to skinny up the balls a little.

The two pictures below show examples of the bad balls & also the venting on the blocks that ends before the edge of the block.

Thanks again for all the suggestions.

Jim

[fatboy]

Hi Folks,
Im new here, but have shot alot of muzzel loader and cap and ball revover. something to look at in your C&B loads is the original load for the C&B colt was to put the powder charge in and then fill the cylinder with corn meal as a buffer then seat the ball firm. this gets the ball just inside the chamber and no need of that greasy kids stuff. makes it a great pleasure to shoot and reload plus theres no grease to hold the lead rings that may end up left behind. i have used this also on the Ruger C&B revolver. I have just recently started casting alloy boolits but it sounds like to cool on the wrinkle problem.

[Hellgate]

The shininess of newly cast balls is normal. They only turn grey as oxidation takes place. Also the manufacturers may tumble them in graphite which gives a darker color and hides imperfections. I sometimes get blue & yellow colorations on the surfaces that probably just reflects various oxidation stages of the surface of the lead. The more pure the lead the more colors I seem to get.

[mooman76]

I wouldn't worry about the wrinkles that much. I don't think it will be a big difference. I didn't picture your wringles that big when you first talked about them. I get wrinkles but they are more cosmetic than actual wrinkles. It looks to me like your pot is getting old and can't get up to the heat needed for pure lead like a new pot, again not a big deal. By the way pure lead doesn't frost like lead alloy does, it takes more heat just for your info.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Sometimes it is as easy as just enlarging the pouring hole in the sprue plate a little. Of course you make sure the hole edge is sharp and lap the plate too. BvT