45-70 or 35 Whelen?

[deltaenterprizes]

A friend called to ask about these two cartridges for "primitive" deer season in Mississippi.
His shot will not be more than 200yds and he does not reload.He already has a Rem 700 in .270 Win., how much more recoil with the 35 Whelen?
I would go for the 35 Whelen from the because the 270 brass could be used to make 35 Whelen if needed and cast boolits also.
45-70 is a good cast boolit cartridge also.

What do you guys think?

[357maximum]

I like questions with no possible wrong answer.

I would go WHELEN, but then again....I have a little 35 caliber affliction.

[Larry Gibson]

I have to ask how the 35 Whelen fits into a "primitive" hunt? The 45-70 would in some states for a BP cartridge firearm. I'm not up on Mississippi game regulations but I'll be there in a couple days and can check.

Larry Gibson

[badgeredd]

If his hunting is anything like mine was while in Mississippi, he'll be happy with the 35 Whelen. Recoil wise, depending on the gun, Another plus to the Whelen in my mind is that it is more capable in most hands of longer ranges than the venerable old 45-70. I have both and would rather carry the Whelen if I were back down there hunting. I feel the 35 Whelen has a better recoil impulse. Like 357maximum...I am a 35 fan.

Edd

[GSaltzman]

Law states: Any single shot, breech loading with an exposed hammer 35 caliber or larger.

[1Shirt]

Larry makes sense regarding "primative" season. I will be interested in what he finds as far as the defination. That said, IF, both 35Whelan and 45-70 qualified, to me it would be a toss up-6 of one half dozen of the other. I would probably go with 45-70 as I have one in #1Ruger, but if I also owned a Whelan, I would flip a coin or go with the most accurate. Let us know Larry!
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Doc Highwall]

It looks like a Encore would fit the exposed hammer part in 35 Whelen I cannot think of another single shot breach loader with a exposed hammer that would be chambered in 35 Whelen.

[deltaenterprizes]

He tells me CVA is making one.

[wills]

PRIMITIVE WEAPONS
"Primitive firearms" for the purpose of hunting deer, are defined as single or double barreled muzzle-loading rifles of at least .38 caliber; single shot, breech loading, cartridge rifles (.35 caliber or larger) and replicas, reproductions or reintroductions of those type rifles; and single or double-barreled muzzle-loading, shotguns with single ball or slug. All muzzle-loading Primitive Firearms must use black powder or a black powder substitute with either percussion caps or #209 shotgun primers or flintlock ignition. Breech loading single shot rifles must have exposed hammers and use metallic cartridges. Cartridges may be loaded either with black powder or modern smokeless powder. Scopes of any magnification are allowed on primitive weapons.
http://home.mdwfp.com/ContentManagement/Html/htmldownload.aspx?id=13

This stuff is easy to find if you have internet access

[yondering]

I would, and do, use the 35 Whelen for deer in Mississippi. I couldn't ask for a better rifle. If he's shooting jacketed bullets, he can't go wrong with the 225gr Partition. For cast, it's a great paper patch rifle.

Recoil will be more dependent on the configuration of the gun itself. My Whelen is a Rem 700, recoil is only marginally more than a 270 in the same gun.

Not sure what the deal is with the "primitive" season; the regular rifle season is from right before thanksgiving until sometime in January, with a late hunt after that, I think. It's long enough for most of us. :razz: (I've only hunted around Thanksgiving and Christmas, and don't know the exact dates this year.)

[Larry Gibson]

Thanks for the regulations guys. Were it me I guess the choice would be the .35 Whelen also given a TC Encore was in the picture. An RCBS 35-200-FN is deadly on deer at 2150 fps (Shot a very nice little Texas 8 pointer this year with that bullet). However, I would also have a hard time not using my H&R Officer's Model TD with the RCBS 45-300-FN cast soft at 1800 fps.

Decisions....decisions.....is there any reg against carrying two rifles;-)?

Larry Gibson

[R.C. Hatter]

:coffee:I have killed deer with both the cartridges, including 71 head with the Whelen.. If I had to choose, I'd take the Whelen every time, because of its flatter trajectory over150-200 yards. Recoil is a variable function of the gun and load. I used 53.5 grs. of IMR #4064 under a 225 gr. Nosler Partition, sparked by CCI standard primers. That said, there is no reason a good cast load couldn't be worked up with a 200-250 gr. boolit that would slay deer. Yes, you can expect more recoil than a .270 Winchester due to the boolit weight increase.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Well, I for one have never seen anyone shooting a .35 Whelen at a black powder match.... I don't think anyone makes one commercialy, CVA?I don't know.... I guess you could have a BBL made for the TC. You can find 38-55 ....yes 40-60. 40-65, 45-70, etc....muzzle loaders in everything from .36 up would work

If you must have a 35 Whelen.....I bet you can have one made, you might have the only one, in Mississippi for sure....good hunting.:redneck:

[223tenx]

What about availability of factory ammo? I don't buy it but how hard is it to find 35 Whelen compared to 45-70 at Walmart or wherever?

[Mk42gunner]

I have a hard time thinking of a .35 Whelen as a primitive rifle. That being said, it will easily reach your friends 200 yard range limit, and more. The Remington factory 200 grain loads work extremely well on Whitetail deer; they are getting kind of spendy though, the last ones I saw for sale were $39.95 per box. Loading dies pay for themselves very quickly.
For a less expensive rifle option, H&R / NEF used to chamber handi-rifles for .35 Whelen; I don't know if they still do or not.

Robert

[deltaenterprizes]

PRIMITIVE WEAPONS
"Primitive firearms" for the purpose of hunting deer, are defined as single or double barreled muzzle-loading rifles of at least .38 caliber; single shot, breech loading, cartridge rifles (.35 caliber or larger) and replicas, reproductions or reintroductions of those type rifles; and single or double-barreled muzzle-loading, shotguns with single ball or slug. All muzzle-loading Primitive Firearms must use black powder or a black powder substitute with either percussion caps or #209 shotgun primers or flintlock ignition. Breech loading single shot rifles must have exposed hammers and use metallic cartridges. Cartridges may be loaded either with black powder or modern smokeless powder. Scopes of any magnification are allowed on primitive weapons.
http://home.mdwfp.com/ContentManagement/Html/htmldownload.aspx?id=13

This stuff is easy to find if you have internet access.

The question is about primitive hunting in MISSISSIPPI not Texas.

[bruce drake]

NEF builds a Handi-rifle in 35 Whelen. They'll also chamber and fit a barrel in 35 Remington which I think is a better caliber for that light of a rifle (carbine really).

[Gunfixer]

DE
Look at the link at the bottom. Thats Mississippi's wildlife dept. Not TXPWD. And we don't have much of a "primitive" season here anyway. And for sure not with most of the restrictions posted previously.

[wills]

The question is about primitive hunting in MISSISSIPPI not Texas.

The answer is about primative hunting in Missippi, not Texas. Look at the link.

[yondering]

An RCBS 35-200-FN is deadly on deer at 2150 fps

Of course, if that's as heavy as you plan to load it, there's no need for a Whelen, may as well make it a 35 Remington. The above is a great 35 Remington load.

I won't claim you need 35 Whelen power for deer, because you don't, but I never saw the point of using a big case exclusively for low velocity loads. Kinda like buying a Z06 Corvette for drivin' Miss Daisy. :razz:

[SciFiJim]

I just looked up 35Whelen ammo on Midway. OUCH! More that $50 for 20 rounds. Just emphasizes why I cast and reload.

[NickSS]

Yhe 35 whellen is a fine cartridge for medium to long range hunting of deer and elk but factory ammo is not extremely available and cost of it is rather high these days. 45-70 ammo is more readily available at least in the stores I frequent and a little cheaper to boot. You can kill deer and elk at 200 yards with a 45-70 but it does have a rather high trajectory and you need to know your hold over or hold under when using it. For the same reason it is harder to hit with on running game. It sounds like your friend is not what I would call a target shooter and the 45-70 with factory loads is not very flat shooting though the high speed 300 gr loads will work well out to 200 yards. As for recoil it depends upon the rifle you choose. I have an H&R handy rifle in 45-70 and with anything beyound factory ballistic ammo recoil can be considered high to painful. The ballistics of a 35 whellen in a similar weight rifle using factory ammo may be just as high. Both will kick you more than a 270 in a model 700 remington.

[44minimum]

If he doesn't reload, I don't see being able to use 270 Brass for 35 whelen as an advantage. 200 yards is a fairly long shot for your typical low velocity 45-70 load. If he can shoot and does know his trajectory then I guess it would work. Neither of them will be exactly cheap to shoot. Perhaps he should be a reloader.

[Duckhunter]

I live/hunt in MS and there are lots of folks here that hunt with either one of these cartridges and both do very well. Truth is, you have to work at finding a shot at deer at the longer ranges and if you can find shots that approach 200 yards, the Whelen is the better choice.

As for the "primitive" in our primitive weapons season, "it ain't so primitive"! Our Department of Wildlife, Fisheries and Parks changed the "defination" of primitive weapons a few years ago to include "firearms manufactured before 1900 or reproductions thereof of at least 38 caliber which use matalic cartridges and have exposed hammers" I don't think that the MDWFP thought about the fact that that the NEF/H&R handi's were origanally produced in 1881. This opened the door for the 38-55, 405 Win., 44 mag, 444 Marlin, 45-70 and a host of wildcats with at least a .380 bore diameter. (The 38-55 raised some eyebrows as it is optimally .377 to .379)

A year or so ago the Commissioners again liberalized the "primitive weapons" rule and dropped the "produced before 1900" and reduced the caliber designation to "a minimum of .35 caliber". This leagalized the Encore, Contender and similar firearms and 357 Mag and Max, 35 Rem. 358 Win. 35 Whelen, 350 Rem Mag and a host of wildcats. Even the 9mm Luger (.356) in a rifle length barrel is legal.

I purchased a 35/30-30 AI barrel for my Contender carbine. I later found a 358 Win. barrel for my Encore and a 35 Whelen for my son's Encore. My brother found a great deal on a 350 Rem Mag barrel for his Encore. I know of a guy who had a 358 STA made up for his Encore. All of these are perfectly legal for the Primitive weapons season in Mississippi.

As for the "reason"; MS has had an expolsion in the deer population while the number of hunters in MS is declining. In addition, those of us who hunt don't harvest as many deer as allowed. The effort is to expand all available means to afford anyone who is inclined to harvest a deer the ability to do so. Actually, there is very little about a 26" barreled T/C Prohunter with a Ziss 3x9-56 in 35 Whelen that is primitive. I suppose you can't actually get to go full auto but an experienced rifleman can shoot one pretty fast.

Me, I'm just hoping to learn enough to cast the boolits to keep all my folks in ammo. Another brother opted for the Handi in 444 Marlin and he's looking at my casting pot and the stack of lead that keeps growing.

[SciFiJim]

he's looking at my casting pot and the stack of lead that keeps growing.

You just need to make sure he participates in the "keeps growing" part as well. Like hunting for dear, hunting for lead (whether WWs or scrap) can be just as fun.