Grizzly tools shipping charge

[abunaitoo]

I wanted to order some stuff from Grizzly.
I'm in Hawaii and USPS flat rate has been a great help to us.
Emailed them to see if they would send it in a USPS flate rate box.
They said they don't use the USPS flat rate box.
I asked what the charge would be.
$26.00 USPS priority mail.
????????
Why would they used USPS priority mail and not use the flat rate box??????

I've heard Midway will not send to Hawaii in the flat rate box.
That's why I no longer buy from them.
I even get dealed price.

I hope the owener of Grizzly read this.
I heard he's a shooter.
Maybe he'll change the rules.

[Houndog]

If Grizzly won't accomidate your needs, try Travers tool! They can supply about anything you might need at a reasonable price and are extremely good at taking care of customers wants and needs. Their complete catalog is online at Travers.com.

[longranger]

I agree, I will find somebody who does'nt sell shipping, Midway one of the wosre.Graf and Sons is usally pretty good with there $4.50 fee, I don't know if that applies to AK or HI but worth a look should at least be less than $26.00 !:brokenima

[218bee]

Look at ENCO tools lots of good stuff especially machinist tools and stuff. A lot of guys here have bought pin guages from them as I did and thats how I first heard of them. Don't recall their shipping policy though.I can see where being in Hawaii they would gouge ya. I hate finding a product for a reasonable price and then finding out the shipping charges and their raping ya. Thats one reason I've never bought powder or primers through the mail as that $25 hazmat fee is hard to justify unless they're givin the stuff away.

[The Double D]

My new favorite tool supplier http://www.wttool.com/. Lot cheaper than Travers and faster services and I really liked dealing with the folks at Travers.

[abunaitoo]

I guess I'm going to add Grizzly to the list of places NOT to do business with.
To bad. They have some good stuff.
Owner is suppose to be a shooter.
Must be like potterfield at midway.
Don't have enough sence to know Hawaii is part of the USA.

[mike in co]

I guess I'm going to add Grizzly to the list of places NOT to do business with.
To bad. They have some good stuff.
Owner is suppose to be a shooter.
Must be like potterfield at midway.
Don't have enough sence to know Hawaii is part of the USA.

go post your issue on the 600/1000 yd br or gunsmith forum on benchrest central.....the owner hangs there...he is a longrange shooter

mike in co

[Tazman1602]

I guess I'm going to add Grizzly to the list of places NOT to do business with.
To bad. They have some good stuff.
Owner is suppose to be a shooter.
Must be like potterfield at midway.
Don't have enough sence to know Hawaii is part of the USA.

Maybe he went there once and got called a howlie???? Man I can't imagine living in AK or HA because of the shipping.......

How's the job situation down there in the middle of the ocean? No hijack intended, feel free to PM me...........

Art

[Shiloh]

My new favorite tool supplier http://www.wttool.com/. Lot cheaper than Travers and faster services and I really liked dealing with the folks at Travers.

I've done business with Wholesale Tool several times.
I also second the fact that shipping has become quite spendy.
Used to be a passed on charge, now it is a way to make extra money as
handling fees and service fees.

Shiloh

[mike in co]

I've done business with Wholesale Tool several times.
I also second the fact that shipping has become quite spendy.
Used to be a passed on charge, now it is a way to make extra money as
handling fees and service fees.

Shiloh

bs...for most companies that is just plain bs.
i have said this many times......there is a cost in the man hours, the supplies, the processing of orders and then the actual shipping charged by the shipper.

when times were good shipping might be cheap, but in times like now one must account for every penny in business.

you whinners on the outside with no idea what it takes to run a business have great "ideas on how it should be done" but no money nor time invested in the process.

no it is not part of the price of the item....why should someone that walks in the door for a pick up pay for part of someone elses shipping costs ?

are some companies better than others yes, do some have better shipping costs than others yes.
but to make such a stupid claim as a generic statement is just plain bs.

mike in co

[Adam10mm]

Basics of business. It's a for profit enterprise. Any time a business is charged something it's an opportunity to make a profit.

Never mind shipping costs have risen steeply in the last 5 years, and we are talking actual shipping charges even with my bulk discount. UPS went up 4% or something in January. I switched to FedEx for my shipping needs. They are about 5-8% cheaper and get to either coast a full business day sooner than UPS. Ship Monday it arrives on the West coast Friday. Can't argue with that.

Also nice with FedEx I print a shipping label and it updates my FedEx desktop widget on my computer as well as my FedEx iPhone app with the tracking information all done by just processing a shipping label online.

[largom]

If I walk into a business and pick up an item I do not expect to pay shipping costs and don't. But what about handling fees? When I order by mail I am charged shipping AND handling. Why do I have to pay part of an employee's salary? That employee gets paid by the hour, whether they are shipping products out or tending the door. Don't tell me it's for packing material because most small companies save the boxes the product came in.

I have run a business and never charged a handling fee. It's just a way to skim off a few extra dollars from the buyer.

Larry

[Storydude]

If I walk into a business and pick up an item I do not expect to pay shipping costs and don't. But what about handling fees? When I order by mail I am charged shipping AND handling. Why do I have to pay part of an employee's salary? That employee gets paid by the hour, whether they are shipping products out or tending the door. Don't tell me it's for packing material because most small companies save the boxes the product came in.

I have run a business and never charged a handling fee. It's just a way to skim off a few extra dollars from the buyer.

Larry

By purchasing that item, you are paying his hourly rate.

So, you feel I should eat the cost of a box, packing materials, Tape, Labels for my UPS worldship printer, Ink for my printer, the computer that runs it, my internet access to be able to ship Via UPS, Electricity for that computer, a scale, and do all this for free?

If that's the case then don't complain when those costs get amoritized into what you pay.

the reason most don't ship USPS is threefold.
1. no reliable tracking system.
2. Poor service from the Post office and damaged packages.
3. restrictions on what can be shipped USPS.

[Adam10mm]

If I walk into a business and pick up an item I do not expect to pay shipping costs and don't. But what about handling fees? When I order by mail I am charged shipping AND handling.
Handling fee is usually charged to recover costs of the boxes, labels, ink, tape, and other support items.


Why do I have to pay part of an employee's salary? That employee gets paid by the hour, whether they are shipping products out or tending the door.
Well geez, how do you think the employee gets paid? You buy a product and pay a handling fee. That culminates in revenue and profit which the business pays bills and employees. Those costs are passed onto the consumer. A portion of the product profit pays their labor and handling fees supplement that.


Don't tell me it's for packing material because most small companies save the boxes the product came in.
That's true if they buy and sell by the unit that it's purchased. What about a retailer that buys 50 items packed in one box but sells them by the individual unit? They can't use the product box in most cases as it won't hold up to the rigors of shipping. They have to purchase shipping boxes, a cost they have and pass along to the consumer.

What about my business? I buy bulk bullets, powder, primers, and brass, assemble it to loaded cartridges to be boxed in 50rd, 100rd, or 200rd boxes then placed into a larger shipping box that must conform to DOT shipping regulations for ORM-D materials. If you think I'm going to eat the cost of the individual boxes, shipping boxes, labels for the brand, labels for the load, stamp and ink for the lot number, tape, shipping label, packing tape to fill your order without at least recovering those costs you simply have no clue.

Now the recovery of costs can be done two ways.
I can build it into the price of the ammunition and charge actual shipping per order, which means I have to run a physical quote for each and every order and forward that to my customers so they can mail the correct amount (I don't accept credit cards).
I can price my ammunition simply by the actual cost of materials plus a standard markup fee, then add a handling charge to markup the shipping cost to recover the cost of the packaging and shipping materials.


Either way the consumer will pay it, whether I roll it is into the price of the product or the shipping charges. I choose the second method above as the prices of shipping charges and packaging materials are static whereas the cost of the ammunition components is dynamic and can change with every order I place. The price will fluctuate for the actual product but the shipping will remain the same.

Places like Graf & Sons get praised for their $4.50 per order handling fee and "free" shipping. Shipping isn't free, you pay a higher product price that if you would pay for the shipping. The shipping is calculated on a grand scale and distributed to the product price based on the weight of the item. The places with low flat rate shipping like $5 or $10 or a penny per order do the same thing. What matters is in the end, is the final price acceptable to you? If so, then pay it. If not, don't pay it.


I have run a business and never charged a handling fee. It's just a way to skim off a few extra dollars from the buyer.

Larry
Right, it's called profit and is something that businesses strive to collect and exist to make. Businesses are in business to make a profit and nothing else.

[Houndog]

I don't mind paying $2-3 dollars for packing supplies and actual shipping costs. What gets me all torqued up is someone tryig to charge $20 for handling or $20-25 for shipping and the parts arrive in a USPS small flat rate box! Fleabay has several shippers famous for such nonsense and that's why I'm doubly careful buying anything from there! The same goes for shippers that shrink wrap a pallet and charge $150 for packaging!

[Adam10mm]

$150 for packaging might also include the pallet cost.

What gets me is the guy on Gunbroker selling his commercial reloads for $200 per K with a $50 shipping fee but shipping in a FRB. I could care less about the shipping charge, since $250/K of 9mm reloads is a fair market price shipped. It's the fact that he is using US mail to ship the ammo which is illegal as all get out.

In the end, it's the consumer's choice to make the purchase or not based on the price and charges. As long as the final total is acceptable to the buyer, it matters not if the product is $1 with a $99 shipping charge, a $100 product with $0 shipping charge or somewhere in the middle. The question the consumer should ask is "is the final shipped price of $100 the fair market value for the product?" There answer should dictate whether they purchase it or not.

[KYCaster]

Minor thread hijack here.....

Freakshow, you say you changed from UPS to FedEx. The only time I ever contacted FedEx about shipping ammo they made it very clear that they didn't want to deal with ORM-D material. The price they quoted confirmed that.(IIRC ~$85.00 for a 3 lb package) I didn't pursue the matter and just jumped through the UPS hoops and shipped for the same cost as any other UPS Ground package.

What's the deal? Did I just call them on a bad day? Have they changed their policy recently?(last two years) If I could deal with the local FedEx drop off point I could save the 90 mile round trip to the UPS office. How does it work for you?

Jerry

[largom]

My issue is not with SHIPPING costs. These are determined by weight, size, method to ship, and carrier. My issue is with handling costs. I don't mind paying a reasonable fee to cover packing material costs but when I pay $10.00 ship & handling fee and it arrives in a small flat rate box filled with newspaper I feel like I've been had. I have bought things in the past where the handling charge was more than the item I purchased, never bought there again.

As for the general office supplies mentioned above, those things are usually amoritized into the markup on the product just like the electric, heating,cooling, rent, mortage, and so on. The general public would be shocked if they knew the full markup on products above wholesale, especially sporting goods, jewelry, cameras, and others. Some of these items have a markup of 200 to 300 %. As told to me by the store manager at a Tractor Supply all of their items have a minimum of 100 % markup.

I don't intend to get into a p*ssing contest with anyone but IMO handling charges are just greed unless your markup is very low and that will show up in your pricing.

Larry

[Adam10mm]

FedEx has always accepted ammunition as ORM-D as far as I know and has done so far hassle free. I check the ORM-D option during the processing and they mark the label "NO AIR". $85 seems crazy. I bet they ran it as haz-mat. Technically ammunition is haz-mat but if packed a certain way can be reclassed as ORM-D (I'm also a certified HazMat shipper).

If you have regular shipments I would just get a pickup account. UPS starts off at $18 per week but if you have $60 or more in shipping charges, it's only $8 per week. I haven't signed up for FedEx daily pickup but they tell me it's about the same. A drop off point is end of the block (10 houses away) until then.

You can also schedule a pickup. FedEx charges $3, UPS charges $8 now. List one package for the pickup and ship everything you have, since you can give a package to the driver for free. Just happens when they come to pick up the one package you give the rest of them to him/her.

Today I shipped out three 45lb boxes, one 75lb box, two 17lb boxes, and one 3lb box. The big ones were going to CA and the little one was going to KS. KS is 2 day travel from Upper Michigan and ran about $8 (FOR TWO DAY SERVICE!). The other boxes were a bunch of guns heading out to CA. The 45lb boxes were about $75ea, the big heavy one was $80-something, and the two 17lb boxes were $50 each because those were insured to $5,000 each. $16 of that was actual shipping and $35ea box was the insurance.

UPS wanted $115ea for the 45lb boxes, over $140 for the heavy box, and close to $75 each for the little 17lb boxes insured to full value. The 3lb ammo box would have been close to $10 to KS with a 3 day lead time. The guns going to CA would have been 5 days and a lot more expensive than FedEx. That's why all my gun and ammo shipments are now FedEx. Cheaper and faster than UPS.

UPS has their WorldShip software which is their own shipping software. Very sophisticated, free with daily pickup account, and very nice. FedEx just has the website stuff which works just as well. UPS WorldShip won't run on Mac, just PC. I also like the integration with FedEx into their desktop widget thing and their app on the iPhone.

[Adam10mm]

As for the general office supplies mentioned above, those things are usually amoritized into the markup on the product just like the electric, heating,cooling, rent, mortage, and so on.
Right, and as I said before some retailers split the profit both in the product markup and in a handling fee. It shouldn't matter where the profit comes from, it should matter the bottom line price to your doorstep.


The general public would be shocked if they knew the full markup on products above wholesale, especially sporting goods, jewelry, cameras, and others. Some of these items have a markup of 200 to 300 %. As told to me by the store manager at a Tractor Supply all of their items have a minimum of 100 % markup.
Standard retail markup is 100% minimum. I make far less than that and I'm the damn manufacturer selling direct to consumer!


I don't intend to get into a p*ssing contest with anyone but IMO handling charges are just greed unless your markup is very low and that will show up in your pricing.
E-commerce online retail is a very cut-throat industry. I'm finding that out after 3 years as an online business. It suffers no fools. Price is very competitive as is total price. $2 will make or break a sale. Some charge all markup with free or dirt cheap shipping, like Graf & Sons and some charge low markup with high handling fees. As I've said before and again like a broken record: Does the final price to show up at your address meet your accepted budget? Yes, then buy it and be done with it. Don't complain. If not, then don't buy and go shop around. You haven't been had because you were informed of all costs and fees and were given a final destination total to which you agree upon when you confirmed the purchase. No reason or room for complaint.

[montana_charlie]

I think you have to take into account what you feel is a 'fair price' for having the item you want to buy.

If you price the item locally, you can compare that amount with what it costs...shipping included...to order it online. You may find that the difference is not very great.
When that works out to be true, you realize that the local price does include shipping and handling...no matter how it gets broken down.

If the item is not available locally, then you simply have to decide how bad you want it. If you pay the price, it is a fair price.

About eBay...
If you buy something for two dollars and it costs you twenty for shipping, you think you are being ripped off. Actually, you see all of the costs ahead of time, so you have no reason to gripe.
Then, you really feel ripped when the item arrives in a Flat Rate Box that costs $4.50 to send.

If you add up the $20 and the $2, then subtract the $4.50, you come up with an amount which is pretty close to a fair selling price for the item.

But, shifting most of the 'purchase price' into the shipping charge means the seller pays eBay a smaller cut for handling the sale.
The only entity being cheated is eBay, but the numbers do allow the buyer to play 'victim' for a short while.

And, that IS the national pastime, these days...no?

CM

[mike in co]

As for the general office supplies mentioned above, those things are usually amoritized into the markup on the product just like the electric, heating,cooling, rent, mortage, and so on. .

Larry


wrong.....
well right but wrong.
everything i use to run my business is figured in to the cost of my product...but things i use for shipping..labor supplies etc, not "general" supplies , but specific shipping stuff....are only calculated into shipping and handling....

if not then we are back to the walkup customer paying for shipping/handling costs....


mike in co

[MLR]

I've done business with Wholesale Tool several times.
I also second the fact that shipping has become quite spendy.
Used to be a passed on charge, now it is a way to make extra money as
handling fees and service fees.

Shiloh

It was never a passed on charge. It is always included in the final price at some point in the process. I will agree that some companies use shipping as a way to hide actual costs from unwary customers. Fifteen years ago when I would make computers for friends I found this out the hard way. Some companies advertised
prices were well below what anyone one else sold a particular item for. This same company would gouge the buyer with shipping and handling charges. They knew full well that many buyers only looked at the cost of the item when ordering the product. The actual cost to the unwary customer was more than it would have cost them at another vendor with higher merchandise cost but lower shipping.

Buyer beware. You need to add up the total cost before ordering a product. Also remember that companies who stand behind their products for life must pass that cost on as well.

Michael

[KYCaster]

Thanks for the reply Freakshow. It sounds like you have the situation pretty well figured out.

Jerry

[Adam10mm]

Being a mail order/online business, it's a huge part to deal with on a daily basis. I have to remain competitive on price and shipping charges while focusing on profit.

[anachronism]

Being a mail order/online business, it's a huge part to deal with on a daily basis. I have to remain competitive on price and shipping charges while focusing on profit.

And nothing that you have to pay for out of pocket can be given away free. EVERY dollar is a net dollar, and you can lose everything just as easily on shipping expenses, as you could by giving away free merchandise too.

Look at your utility bills, see the "administrative" charges? These guys are charging you just for sending you a bill.

Every expense must have an offsetting payment, or you won't be around very long. I do admit that some companies overdo the handing charge. They're mere pikers compared to the ripoffs on your everyday bills that you don't even bother to read anymore. Just cut 'em a check.

[Recluse]

Standard retail markup is 100% minimum.


Actually, not even close.

Depends on the retailer, category, season and supplier, where it's being sold, targeted consumer audience, etc.

Think 4 P's of Marketing--Product, Price, Placement, Promotion

Normal retail markup for FMCG (Fast Moving Consumer Goods) mass retailers and big box stores like Walmart, Target, CVS, Walgreens, et al is around 35%. When you get into their photo lab services and optical services, then mark up can soar above 75% quickly.

When you get into the pharmacies, markup can skyrocket to over 1000%.

:coffee:

[jcwit]

Standard retail markup is 100% minimum.

Thats a joke, and I'm speaking from 44 years of retail experience starting when I was 14 till retiring at the age of 58. Last 20 years with my own business. Std. markup 100%, you need to get out more.

[jcwit]

Being a mail order/online business, it's a huge part to deal with on a daily basis. I have to remain competitive on price and shipping charges while focusing on profit.

I see by your website you're going out of business and liquidating all inventory, is this true?

[abunaitoo]

Maybe he went there once and got called a howlie???? Man I can't imagine living in AK or HA because of the shipping.......

How's the job situation down there in the middle of the ocean? No hijack intended, feel free to PM me...........

Art

Economy here is bad.
Shops closing all over the place.
No work to be found.
Many being laid off.
Government is talking about raising taxes to make up for the budget short fall.
They also want to build a rail system that no one wants or will ride.
Weather is still nice.

As far as shipping, USPS flat rate box is free.
Still have to provide the tape, lable and packing matirial (I use old news paper).
They will come to your business to pick it up.
You can add tracking and insurance.
Cost is way less than UPS or FEDX.
I would think it would be the way to go for a business.

[PatMarlin]

And nothing that you have to pay for out of pocket can be given away free. EVERY dollar is a net dollar, and you can lose everything just as easily on shipping expenses, as you could by giving away free merchandise too.

Look at your utility bills, see the "administrative" charges? These guys are charging you just for sending you a bill.

Every expense must have an offsetting payment, or you won't be around very long.

BINGO! -hand the man a cigar.

A good consumer always enters the shipping and handling charges in the equation. I think USPS has the best deal on shipping depending on the size of your product.

Shipping and handling eats up a bunch of your bottom line and is time consuming. I hate paying high shipping charges, and like to buy from guys that use USPS flat rate. I think it's a good selling feature, but in any event you have to figure in your time and costs on shipping or you will be asking for big trouble.

A major part of a products sucess is being able to ship it reasonably.

Enco has a free shipping for orders over $25 every month. If anyone needs the code PM me. I always have it.

[Adam10mm]

I see by your website you're going out of business and liquidating all inventory, is this true?
Yes, I'm going out of business. Once the business assets are sold and all debts are settled, I will be closing permanently.

[Adam10mm]

Actually, not even close.

Depends on the retailer, category, season and supplier, where it's being sold, targeted consumer audience, etc.

Think 4 P's of Marketing--Product, Price, Placement, Promotion

Normal retail markup for FMCG (Fast Moving Consumer Goods) mass retailers and big box stores like Walmart, Target, CVS, Walgreens, et al is around 35%. When you get into their photo lab services and optical services, then mark up can soar above 75% quickly.

When you get into the pharmacies, markup can skyrocket to over 1000%.

:coffee:
With my personal experience in retail, everywhere from working at Kmart as a teenager to a sporting goods manager in my early 20s, it's been straight up 100% on average. Sure some things are 300%, 450% and higher, but generally in my personal experience it's been double your cost, ie 100% markup. Different products and different types of retailers will vary greatly sure, I'm not arguing that point. Making ammunition I would never survive if I tried to sell for 100% markup in fact the gun shops I sold to would make more money selling it retail than I would selling to the shop themselves.

My cost on 9mm ammo is $130-146/K rounds depending largely on whether I could get primers at wholesale/OEM cost or had to pay retail or a bit less if I got lucky on bulk brass. I tried selling it for $260/K plus shipping (about $15) and it wouldn't move until the price went to $175/K. With a $30 gross margin selling consumer direct, then having to take a severe deduction in price for the wholesale market, it was a disaster. Tried to get my suppliers to come down in price but they wouldn't budge until I bought a million rounds worth of components each month. Get real. However when I started my business as a bullet caster, I got away with 300% markup no problem, but I bought scrap lead for 15 cents a pound and mixed my own #2 alloy out of scrapyards and garage sales.


Thats a joke, and I'm speaking from 44 years of retail experience starting when I was 14 till retiring at the age of 58. Last 20 years with my own business. Std. markup 100%, you need to get out more.
In my experience which spans about 10 years retail, average is 100% markup. Many places still use the BLACKSTONE method for cost on their product tags. 9/10 times it's 100% markup.

[Recluse]

With my personal experience in retail, everywhere from working at Kmart as a teenager to a sporting goods manager in my early 20s, it's been straight up 100% on average.

Might explain why K-Mart was in an out of bankruptcy court so often. . .

I've set the pricing models and paradigms for retailers that included K-Mart, Sears, JC Penney, Western Auto, and others.

At Sears, for example, if I'd suggested a 100% retail markup over cost on lawmowers and edgers, I would've been laughed at then unceremoniously escorted, probably at the point of a weedwacker, off the grounds at Hoffman Estates.

You have three basic ways of making net from gross in retail pricing.

1. Quantity of price versus quantity of sales

2. Quantity of volume per unit per volume of sales

3. Quantity of merchandise per quantity of seasonal sales window/opportunity.

Let's take your manufacturing business, first.

Number one (Quantity of price versus quantity of sales) is where you would want to concentrate. To make that work, you have to have realistic expectations of what you could make and sell. To do that, you NEVER EVER listen to potential customers. Everyone will tell you, "Hell, yeah. I'll buy one from you." And maybe twenty percent will actually follow through.

How to forecast is where art meets science, and one could devote an entire forum thread to just that discussion alone.

But, a high-ticket item such as a firearm or receiver is not a volume sales item (unless you are Colt or S&W doing high-volume guaranteed contract work with gov't agencies). That's your Product (one of the marketing P's)

Your markup is whatever the market will bear for your product. Ie, the Price (another P). To get that Price, you need to Place your item for availability and Promote your item (the other two marketing P's).

And again, how to price is never as simple as a straight mathematical formula based on percentage(s) alone. That is one of the most common pitfall of all new small business startups and a leading cause that results in the business folding.

Now, let's compare that with the ammo business.

Ammo is a quantity-based pricing product. Think of ammo like a gallon of gasoline at the corner gas station/convenience store. The owner is not going to make all his money on ten or twenty cars filling up with gas per week.

He's going to make his money on three to four hundred cars filling up per day. Therefore, he wants the lowest possible markup that will give him the highest competitive edge over his nearest three competitors. People WILL drive across the street to save .02¢ per gallon, even if they are only buying five gallons of gas.

This is the realm of Perception versus Reality.

You even mentioned somewhere how just a dollar or two could be the difference between a sale and no sale in your ammo business online. And, you're exactly right.

In quantity sales merchandise, the key to profits is in reducing your costs since the price is pretty much set by your competition. Lower your costs and you'll raise your gross.

In the high-ticket item merchandise (guns, receivers) your materials costs are important because if you use cheap stuff, it will show and your customers will not be happy. This is where your time is basically free because until you have a "name" and reputation, your time isn't worth squat. Your markup is based upon cost of materials alone.

In seasonal, it's a combination of the two. Think Walmart and Walgreens with their cheap ChiCom seasonal merchandise. Their buyers negotiate contracts with the Chinese before the stuff is ever even manufactured. All costs, including shipping and displayers, are firmed up and in contract before the first production run is even made.

In these scenarios, profits are already fixed and factored. The only room for adjustment is to change the price once on the shelf--but that is dangerous because most stuff comes pre-priced on the package. Only way to adjust the price is downward--clearance sale type pricing.

However, in general, the retail markup/profit on seasonal stuff in this category hovers around 100% to 150%--which is why you see so much cheap ChiCom garbage in the Walgreens and Walmarts. The big box retailers can forecast down to within 1.5 to 2 percent of what their sales and profits will be with this kind of merchandise.

This is important because Wall Street much prefers forecasting as to speculating. Both have their place and both are necessary, just that forecasting often is more controllable in terms of gross and net than is speculating.

In other businesses I've been involved with, including the gun business, I've yet to ever see a 100% retail markup on a firearm from Wholesaler to Retailer. Never seen it. I helped get three new large sporting good stores set up and running in a major metro area here in the southwest last year. Average retail markup in the firearms area was only 20% for firearms, 30% on ammo, and 40% to 60% on clothing.

I haven't seen an average markup higher than 50 to 60% on basic FMCGs in decades.

:coffee:

[Adam10mm]

Thanks for sharing that, Recluse. Part of my failure is I have no business background and took advice from anyone who would offer it without a sense of direction. People spend several years in school learning how to run a business and I just started from scratch with little money and a desire to succeed and make a good living for my family. There was no knowledge.

A lot of my price setting in the beginning was advised by others in the reloading industry to go 100% plus FET (11%), then a 20-30% reduction for wholesale orders. Well that's all fine and dandy on paper but when the numbers came out I had tons of overpriced product on the market. Price dropped until things moved and then I kept it there. Things got slower so price went down and kept going down. Last retail pricing I was selling a case (1,00rds) of ammo at $15 profit per case and barely getting sales. I based my prices off Georgia Arms, they were selling 9mm reloads for like $240 per case, I was selling them for about $170/case and shipping faster than they could fill the orders yet sales were pathetic despite advertising as best as money could afford. A business associate/friend of mine in CA stated plainly the big issue is I'm a 3yo business competing with companies that have been doing it 30+ years. He said I was trying to take on the world with no army to back me. I should have focused first on local and regional (MI and WI customers via gun shows, dealers, etc) instead of getting a website and marketing my product to the entire country.

I knew going in this was a volume business. I had that in mind but no means to produce it so I tried to do what I could do as fast as I could. Things got out of hand way too fast. I was so focused on what I wanted to sell rather than what I was physically capable of producing. Like I said, lots of hard lessons. I'm glad that I didn't go ahead with the suppressor side of the business much beyond some RT&E. I knew when things weren't going the way the plan stated and decided to quit instead of pushing forward hoping things would change. Things like buying a 1050 to get the volume without having the sense to realize I lacked the capital to keep it running for even 20 hours solid per week. Like buying a Rolls Royce yet not being able to afford gasoline to drive it. It's now sat idle for several weeks. I have components to load but what's the point when my name is tainted to the point I've had $200 in sales this year? Instead of a bunch of components that aren't selling, it would just be a bunch of ammo that wasn't selling. 6 in one hand half dozen in the other.

And I wish I would have learned about SCORE when I first started my business. I finally read about it last week in Entrepreneur magazine.

All left to do now is liquidate, settle debts, and chalk it up to a hard lesson that will haunt me until my days end. Such is life.

[Adam10mm]

Oh, forgot. I used to manage the gun department in a sporting goods shop in Green Bay. At the time guns were 10%, ammo was 30% and clothing and accessories were all 100% markup. Browning clothes were price fixed (like Oakley sunglasses) at 30% but everything non-Browning branded was 100% markup. Some guns were only 5% markup, like the Winchester Super X2 were $579 cost and retail was $599 (I remember that because we sold a metric ass load of them) but the Beretta 686 and 687 series shotguns went for a nice 28% as well as the old AyA guns.

The number one thing I hated to do is set the price with my business. I've always kept a spreadsheet of costs and updating every time I ordered so I could keep current. I've tried all sorts of methods from simple percents like 50, 75, 100 and straight dollar markups across the board no matter the cartridge (my thinking is it takes the same time to load 1,000 9mm as it does 1,000 .40, .45, .38 Spl, etc).

[PatMarlin]

That was just one hell of a pond to swim in Freakshow, but that's how you learn.

I've been in business for myself all of my life, plus in and out of manufacturing and sales over the years and made a ton of mistakes. All that experience adds up and comes in handy when you least expect it. I use it all now, and looking back was glad I went through it back then.

[Recluse]

And I wish I would have learned about SCORE when I first started my business. I finally read about it last week in Entrepreneur magazine.

All left to do now is liquidate, settle debts, and chalk it up to a hard lesson that will haunt me until my days end. Such is life.

No. . . .

Sam Walton failed twice, huge. . . big time. . . colossal. He ultimately succeeded because he learned from his failures, and up until the day he died, he always placed more stock in what he DIDN'T KNOW than in what he did know.

Thing is, Adam, you're young and you have plenty of time to recover from your commercial cast bullet biz and your manufacturing biz. Take the lessons you've learned, store them, study them, and use them as a basis and foundation to remind you of what you DON'T KNOW rather than what you do know.

The people that I feel for, that just break my heart, are retired folks who invest their life savings into starting up and owning their own business--and then it fails within one to two years.

They're in their late 60's, nothing left in their savings account, and are forced to go back to work.

The beauty of SCORE is that in today's day and age, you can get help and advice from anywhere in the U.S. via the internet and the SBA network. I've written business communications plans and marketing plans (both of which are required before being approved for an SBA loan) for start-up businesses on both coasts and as far north as Duluth, Minnesota. A lot of folks involved in SCORE do the same thing--in fact, most do a lot more than I do as they are 100% retired.

I'm too young to be 100% retired, but I'm working damned hard on it. :)

You can get your name back. And you can get your pride back. Both are doable. You can do it.

If you need help or ideas or counsel or just a place to vent during the upcoming period of frustration, shoot me a PM. We've also helped folks in your position who are trying to make good on debts owed to customers, too. There's a way you can do that and get your name back at the same time.

In the meanwhile, do not let a failure shred your dreams and ambitions. Vince Lombardi, the greatest coach and Life Coach ever, in my opinion, always said, "The biggest accomplishment in life is not in never falling down. It is in picking yourself back up after you've fallen down."

I believe that with all my heart.

Hang in there. You're among friends here. Always remember that.

:coffee:

[The Double D]

Some months ago I read a report on postal rates and raising costs and things the Post Offcie was considering to cut costs. The flat rate box was targetted and just an obvious appearing the money loser...the report said that in fact the program was a money maker as most item sent in the boxes could have been sent cheaper, at parcel post rates. The only concern was that businesss were not embracing the method of shipping. They raised the rate slightly to fund a advertising campaign to try to get businesses on board.

Why doesn't business get on board with this? Boxes provided free and no postage to compute. That should reduce shipping costs? Doesn't it?

On the other hand, it might be difficult for a business to justify the shipping and handling fee line of revenue if they did that.

[PatMarlin]

I see many companies starting to come on board with USPS flat rate.

It is seriously time consuming calculating postage, specially with websites like UPS. The post office got it right with this one, and their website is done well.

I think the rub comes into play concerning the size of your product. I'm fortunate as all of my items fit in a Small or Medium flat rate box. That solves a tons of time and problems and allows me to pass on the cheap shipping rate to my customers. Big plus for everyone.

Click and ship is really convenient, pretty darn fast and keeps a data base of your shipments. Printing lables on copy paper then taping to a box is easy and secure.

I have lost 2 items in the mail so far though, but that's out of a bunch shipped. I dunno- all and all I thinkg the PO has done a great job with flat rate.

[Adam10mm]

When I sold brass and bullets, FRB was the way to go. As I moved towards loaded ammunition, US Mail was not an option so UPS then FedEx had to be the one.

One thing I found with customers is they can be difficult to deal with, not the 1% but the 90%. They want fast, cheap shipping and actual tracking not a "delivery confirmation" number. Well to get that you have to pay for it with a private carrier. Minimum package cost to ship is around $6-7 for about a pound. Then goes up from there. It is far cheaper to ship USPS FRB but you don't get the tracking number system like the private carriers. No matter what choice or option the customer makes, the business is always at fault. They want USPS to ship cheap but it's the business' fault for not having a tracking number like UPS has. Geez.:)

[Adam10mm]

Insurance is another thing too. Shipping UPS or FedEx it's insured to $100. Anything above that is a surcharge. With US Mail, it's uninsured.

I've shipped about 3,500 firearms over the country, mostly to CA. Never ever lost a single gun. US mail on the other hand, what a circus.

[PatMarlin]

I setup my program and if someone wants to buy from me, they accept it. I've been asked a few times if I would ship UPS and I say nope. Sorry.

But it's easy to do when you only sell a few small sized items to go flat rate.

[Recluse]

No matter what choice or option the customer makes, the business is always at fault. They want USPS to ship cheap but it's the business' fault for not having a tracking number like UPS has. Geez.:)

Another business lesson learned. . .

If you set up a business in which shipping is your primary method of delivery, set up no more than THREE options, and stick to them. If customers want "delivery tracking confirmation minute by minute Google Earth," then charge them for it.

Everyone wants something for nothing.

More people complain about shipping than any other thing in online shopping. I've seen people right here on this forum pay more for an item at several online e-tailers simply to get "reduced shipping costs" that they might pay at Midway or Midsouth.

And that ALWAYS gives me a chuckle.

As a business owner, your rates are what they are. Your shipping options are what they are. If that causes potential customers to go elswhere, oh well.

You cannot make every customer happy. To try will bankrupt you at the speed of light.

Build your better mousetrap. Price it at what it needs to be in order for you to make a fair profit and at the same time, be salesworthy. Promote it honestly. Ship it in an established manner in which you KNOW how much that shipping will cost--including YOUR TIME in getting the product ready to ship.

Product does not walk itself to a box, jump in, pull the flaps of the box over itself. Tape does not magically appear any more than a shipping label printed on a computer does. And packages do not walk themselves to the Post Office.

It's all a significant learning curve.

:coffee:

[StarMetal]

Another business lesson learned. . .

If you set up a business in which shipping is your primary method of delivery, set up no more than THREE options, and stick to them. If customers want "delivery tracking confirmation minute by minute Google Earth," then charge them for it.

Everyone wants something for nothing.

More people complain about shipping than any other thing in online shopping. I've seen people right here on this forum pay more for an item at several online e-tailers simply to get "reduced shipping costs" that they might pay at Midway or Midsouth.

And that ALWAYS gives me a chuckle.

As a business owner, your rates are what they are. Your shipping options are what they are. If that causes potential customers to go elswhere, oh well.

You cannot make every customer happy. To try will bankrupt you at the speed of light.

Build your better mousetrap. Price it at what it needs to be in order for you to make a fair profit and at the same time, be salesworthy. Promote it honestly. Ship it in an established manner in which you KNOW how much that shipping will cost--including YOUR TIME in getting the product ready to ship.

Product does not walk itself to a box, jump in, pull the flaps of the box over itself. Tape does not magically appear any more than a shipping label printed on a computer does. And packages do not walk themselves to the Post Office.

It's all a significant learning curve.

:coffee:

Midways system is pretty well automated. You're not correct on taping and labeling. I've seen boxes automatically closed and tape, and labeled.

When I worked as a Journeyman Electrician at the IBM plant in Boulder, Co they were totally automated. They had these little robot cars that moved the product around the plant. They even brought it boxed to the shipping dock. This was ages ago too.

Shipping for many companies is where they rip you off. Although not a company people who sell on Ebay are very guilty of this. I'll have to hand it to Midway for listening and utilizing USPS Flat Rate shipping.

[Recluse]

Midways system is pretty well automated. You're not correct on taping and labeling. I've seen boxes automatically closed and tape, and labeled.

When I worked as a Journeyman Electrician at the IBM plant in Boulder, Co they were totally automated. They had these little robot cars that moved the product around the plant. They even brought it boxed to the shipping dock. This was ages ago too.

Large companies can afford this. Most small mom/pop businesses still do stuff by hand. Which takes time. And time is your number one commodity.

Agree about the Ebay seller shipping rip-offs. I've seen one-ounce, two-inch items get shipped for up to $10 when sellers didn't get the bid they were wanting/expecting.

When I shop on-line, if the seller doesn't have pre-published shipping rates or a shipping calculator, I generally just pass them on by.

:coffee:

[Adam10mm]

Midways system is pretty well automated. You're not correct on taping and labeling. I've seen boxes automatically closed and tape, and labeled.

Even as large as Midway's shipping department is, I doubt they have robots picking product off the shelves and sealing/labeling boxes. My tiny company had some neat sealing equipment. Using the kraft paper tape I set the machine to the length needed, pulled the handle and it wet the site, fed to length, and cut it. I pulled the handle and put it on the box to seal it. The shipping labels printed direct to sticky labels so I wouldn't use tape. Reduced costs even more.


Recluse, I learned so much about shipping and packaging it's unbelievable. The boxes I used for the ammo were the simple "indestruco mailers" which were 200lb crush test and didn't require tape to seal them. I learned that lesson after wasting so much time and money with the fancy box and tray combos that only held 50rds. Those were 53 cents each and took up so much shelf space it was insane. Looked good, that's about it. When I switched to the loose pack format, my 50rds of ammo fit into a 3x2x2 inch box (or 3x3x2 for the .45 ACP) and cost me 14 cents to box rather than the 53 cents for the fancy packs, saving me 39 cents per 50rds. Two of the loose pack boxes took up the same space as a single 50rd box/tray so my dealers could fit twice the product on the shelf versus the old style. Saving 39 cents per 50rd box meant a savings of $7.80/ 1,000 rounds. When I ran the numbers and realized how much I was wasting just to hold the product, that changed almost overnight. :lol:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/P4100128.jpg

Early on when things were going good, I had a "blasting bucket" bulk lot. A 5 gallon bucket filled to the top with reloaded ammunition in 9mm, .40, or .45. It was a huge hit with LE agencies wanting training ammo. They would buy a bucket of ammo, save the brass, then ship the bucket of brass back. I'd clean the brass, reload it, then ship it back in a bucket again. At any given time I had a bucket of brass coming back at the same time a bucket of ammo was going back to them. Nice thing was a local company had shipping routes where all the agencies I serviced so they let my toss the buckets on their truck for free and return the brass when they delivered the ammo to the agencies. I'd just go to the shipping station and get the brass buckets back. Ahh, the good old days.

[wills]

Why would they used USPS priority mail and not use the flat rate box??????

You can send priority mail with a corporate account, but not flat rate.

[Adam10mm]

You can send flat rate with a business account. I don't know how that rumor got started.

[wills]

You can send flat rate with a business account. I don't know how that rumor got started.

We cant send flat rate with our "corporate account".

[Adam10mm]

Strange. A local company I know that has a "corporate account" ships only flat rate boxes.

[wills]

Come talk to our post office.

[abunaitoo]

We cant send flat rate with our "corporate account".

Is there a difference between a corporate and business account??????

[abunaitoo]

I emailed a few businesses to see if they are willing to use flat rate boxes.
I've only tried tool and equipment companies and a few gun shops.

Enco:(
Dear Customer, Thank you for your e-mail. Unfortunately, we do not offer the flat rate shipping via USPS at this time. However, we do ship via USPS to Hawaii. Please note, there has been some delays with some of our customers receiving their packages within a business week even on upgraded shipping to Hawaii. These delays are generated by USPS.

Travers:(
To Hawaii your order would need to ship Next day air, 2nd day air or we do ship USPS. However, we do not use the flat rate boxes.

Grizzly:(
We are unable to ship using USPS flat rate boxes since we do not have USPS pickup.

Wholesale Tool Company:smile:
Yes we do, when ordering just select USPS and in the comment section put a note that states you want flat rate box.

I guess I'll be buying all my tooling from Wholesale Tool Company from now on.

Gunshops that I've use that are willing to send USPS flat rate box.
Graf and Sons
Wideners

[wills]

Is there a difference between a corporate and business account??????

There may be.

You deposit money, and as you mail things they charge the account. It makes no sense why they limit how you can use it, as the post office already has your money.

The people at the post office here were excited when we opened the "corporate account", because it was the only one they had.

[PatMarlin]

I emailed a few businesses to see if they are willing to use flat rate boxes.
I've only tried tool and equipment companies and a few gun shops.

Enco:(
Dear Customer, Thank you for your e-mail. Unfortunately, we do not offer the flat rate shipping via USPS at this time. However, we do ship via USPS to Hawaii. Please note, there has been some delays with some of our customers receiving their packages within a business week even on upgraded shipping to Hawaii. These delays are generated by USPS.

Travers:(
To Hawaii your order would need to ship Next day air, 2nd day air or we do ship USPS. However, we do not use the flat rate boxes.

Grizzly:(
We are unable to ship using USPS flat rate boxes since we do not have USPS pickup.

Wholesale Tool Company:smile:
Yes we do, when ordering just select USPS and in the comment section put a note that states you want flat rate box.

I guess I'll be buying all my tooling from Wholesale Tool Company from now on.

Gunshops that I've use that are willing to send USPS flat rate box.
Graf and Sons
Wideners

THat is the perfect example of why I think Flat Rate has been a good selling feature for business.

Enco- you can get free shipping from them and it gets here in one day. I do it pretty much weekly. They are better than flat rate by a mile.

[abunaitoo]

Being in Hawaii, many great offers don't apply to us.
Enco free shipping is one of them.

Need to add Harbor Fright to the list that will NOT send USPS flat rate box.

I'm sure Alaska is having the same problems we have in Hawaii.

At least we have sunshine:D

[theperfessor]

That's the price you pay for living in paradise!

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Roto Metals sent my 50 pounds of shot in a flat rate box!

I don't know if they have a business or corprate account, but the guy told be that they send out a pallet full every day!