Why not a red dot sight on a dangerous game rifle?

[44minimum]

Well, why not. Authors are all the time recommending Scopes for a dangerous game rifle so that they can be able to put their bullets where they need to be. A good red dot sight (not the $30.00 ones you get at Walmart) is at least as reliable as a scope is it not? It might not be quite as precise then again you're talking about close range and an inch one way or another most likely will not matter. The only detraction I can see is making sure you have good batteries and unless you're an idiot can be pretty easily managed. So why not?

[jbc]

time it takes to turn on

[nicholst55]

The only detraction I can see is making sure you have good batteries and unless you're an idiot can be pretty easily managed. So why not?

Not that I hunt dangerous game all that much...

Having said that, my personal objection would be that red dot sights are battery powered, electronic devices. Since Mr. Murphy (of Murphy's Law fame) will doubtless accompany you on your hunt, the battery on your red dot sight will fail, just when you need it most. Or, the sight itself will fail.

If you have good iron sights on your gun, it's not a huge issue. If you don't, well, you're royally screwed.

I have the same objection to using an electronic sight on a battle rifle, but the Army and Marine Corps obviously disagree. I thought that the old Trijicon reflex sight was the way to go, like M4 Carbine was originally fielded with. They have all been replaced with the Aimpont M4 series red dot sights. Whatever.

[montana_charlie]

Just because it's 'dangerous game' doesn't mean that it's close. A lion can be a hundred and fifty yards out...far enough that a scope is the best option...and it's still called 'dangerous'.

The tricky part comes when you find out how fast that lion can be right in your face when a shot goes wrong. I haven't been in the situation, but I have seen some real-time video of the charge. In that one, the hunter couldn't work his bolt fast enough to get off two shots...and the lion was so hard to see as it came through the brush, a red dot would just have been a wishful thought.

You can pull the trigger when the dot falls on the animal, but he'll be gone by the time the bullet arrives. You can't really lead a moving target by holding the dot on empty air out in front of him.

CM

[ANeat]

I love red dots but for something like that give me some good iron sights.

And usually in a "dangerous game" situation they have at least one other person ready with a gun.

[HeavyMetal]

Anybody remember the old Weaver "Quick Point" sight?

This was a sight the used the "Occluded Eye" concept and did not require batteries.

This sight was way ahead of it's time and marketed to, of all shooting groups, bird hunters!

It was way to new fangled for them and the concept never caught on because Weaver never marketed it right.

Fast forward to today and "Terminal Gadgititus", from the computer genius's of course, have red, and green, dot sights on everything from black powder rifles to Bows!

Now I have a couple red dots on a few of my Ruger 22 auto pistols and I like them. These are the type with a single lens and the dot is projected up to it for sighting.

They are fast and quick, once you get used to them.

However the already mention issues with breakage, batteries, and mis handling are a real world wake up call on a DG rifle!

Until the O E non battery sight makes a reappearence I'll stick to iron sights on my 45-70 bear gun.

[Ed Barrett]

The double is for all practical purposes two rifles, these were and still are popular for dangerous game hunting since if something went wrong with one side the other side could save your body parts. Most of the double rifles were fitted to the customer by the British makers so when it came to the shoulder, the eye and positioning were just about perfect for the shot. The British gun makers wanted to make sure their customers came back in one piece for repeat business. Most American rifle shooters are used to “Making do” with whatever Remington or Winchester thinks the proper fit for most shooters. Top trap and skeet shooters go to great lengths to have their stocks fitted so they come up in the right position for a quick shot.

I have seen some rifles with 6 picatinny rails and people think they have to hang a “DoDad” on every one of them. If it floats your boat fine, but what is more important is bringing the gun to your shoulder every time with a good sight picture. It’s just my opinion, I own guns with scopes but even with my 68 year old eyes I prefer a peep sight.

[waksupi]

When I was with Serengeti Rifles, we specialized in dangerous game rifles. The general opinion in the shop was, once you put a scope on a DGR, you then had a large caliber varmint rifle. A scope is just too slow, if you really, really need your rifle, RIGHT NOW!
The best sights for a DGR in my opinion, are the sights from NECG, wide open V in the rear, with large ivory front bead. With this set up, we could fire fast follow ups, coming back on target as fast as the bolt could be worked.
If you are shooting at something 150 yards away, it isn't dangerous game.

[Lloyd Smale]

you have to keep in mind that theres a vast differnce in quality of red dot sights on the market and most just arent reliable enough to trust your life to. the two exceptions are aimpoint and trijicon. Aimpoints are battle tested and tougher then any scope made and have a battery life if left on continously for over 5 years. trijicons are also very tough and use trinium so there is no battery to go bad or chance of turning it off. they are both use in hunting the most dangerous game on earth! Man!!! Just ask a soldier if he thinks there reliable sights. As to taking a beating from handling and recoil. I once saw a shooting show on the box that two reps from aimpoint stood about 10 yards apart on a concrete parking lot and shot ars with aimpoints. They tood 3 shots at a target took off there aimpoints and BOUNCED them across the cement to each other picked them up and bounced them back to each other mounted them back on there guns and shot another 3 shot group at a 100 yards and both guns shot right to point of aim. Now show me a scope that will put up with that kind of abuse. Dot scopes have been used on dangerous game. Boddington (I know i dont like him either) uses trijicon scopes on sights on all of his dangerous game hunting guns now. Why? Id guess mostly becuase they sponsor his show but i think its something that is catching on fast. I think the major holdback is tradition. Most guys hunting big game in africa are doing it once in there lifetime and have read all the storys and watched all the shows and want traditional equiptment. Im sure my beowulf would handle a cape buffalo. it has taken a water buffalo over here but it sure wouldnt be what i picked to go on safari with.

[218bee]

I've never done it but after reading many books and articles I would go open sights or low power say 1.5-5x in some type of tip-off mount with iron sights still available if needed. I agree Murphys Law would undoubtedly apply to me

[Shiloh]

I love red dots but for something like that give me some good iron sights.

And usually in a "dangerous game" situation they have at least one other person ready with a gun.

Killer marmots??

Shiloh

[ole 5 hole group]

Have we become a “Chicken Little” society? Will we ever drive another Toyota? Come on, if one is so paranoid that he thinks his battery will be dead while on “safari” with his red-dot howitzer at the ready against an all out charge by the mighty cape buffalo – well, maybe he should have stayed home. A dead red-dot battery in a tight situation is about as likely as having every cartridge in your immediate possession having dead primers or your rifle’s firing pin all of a sudden breaks etc. Although I don’t own a red-dot yet, I see it about the same as a scope – not as accurate, but just as quick as a scope and quicker than a scope for those gentlemen that shoot a scope with only one eye open. A rifleman with a well set up rifle having quality aperture sights can quickly raise hell with anything he can see and that type of sighting system is what I personally prefer over a scope or red-dot on a rifle. Get on with it - adapt & overcome - don’t sweat the small stuff like dead batteries, broken crosshairs, Dear John letters etc.

[Hardcast416taylor]

On my .416 Taylor are a fine set of NECG sights and a Leupold 1.5 X 4.5 power scope with a heavy #4 European post crosshair reticule in a tip off QD type mount. My other heavy calibers are equiped with Williams peep sights for fast acquiring. I had 1 of the early Weaver quick points, darned dot would vanish on you if you didn`t have it shoulder mounted just right or stared through it too long. My old eyes have seen many "different targets" through a variety of sights on a variety of miltary and sporting rifles, I`ll still rely on a good set of open sights and peeps.Robert

[44man]

Just because it's 'dangerous game' doesn't mean that it's close. A lion can be a hundred and fifty yards out...far enough that a scope is the best option...and it's still called 'dangerous'.

The tricky part comes when you find out how fast that lion can be right in your face when a shot goes wrong. I haven't been in the situation, but I have seen some real-time video of the charge. In that one, the hunter couldn't work his bolt fast enough to get off two shots...and the lion was so hard to see as it came through the brush, a red dot would just have been a wishful thought.

You can pull the trigger when the dot falls on the animal, but he'll be gone by the time the bullet arrives. You can't really lead a moving target by holding the dot on empty air out in front of him.

CM
WHAT???? You can't lead an animal with a red dot? Where did that come from?
I think you are thinking about a laser, not a red dot and until you see the difference, your information is wrong.
Lloyd and Waksupi are both right, a scope can be too slow when needed in a hurry and both open sights or a red dot are much faster. The military is not wrong and knowing how stubborn they are, it is funny that soldiers love the red dots and the government is giving them to our troops.
It is also funny that I shoot walking and running deer with red dots ON REVOLVERS easier then I can with a scope---Come and have a steak with me, shoot a red dot while you are here.

[44man]

I do not know the percentage of hunters that DO NOT KNOW HOW TO USE A SCOPE is, but when I had my 24X scope on my varmint rifle, I could put it in a sparrow flying 30 feet in front of me instantly. I would hand my rifle to other hunters to look at the moon at night and none could find it, actually looking in the opposite direction searching for it. Yeah, sure, they could pick up a running deer, get real.
Even on the hunting shows I hear the guide say to the hunter "there he is, shoot." The hunter asks "Where? I can't see him."
Your perception of the average hunter is way off, yet the red dot with the huge field of view will help even the poor shooter.

[mtnman31]

Dangerous game - I think enemy combatants shooting at Marines could be considerd VERY dangerous game. If an Aimpoint or Trijicon is reliable enough for combat, I am sure it is reliable enough for dangerous game hunting. As for batteries dying, I would hope that for a once in a lifetime hunt I would spend the couple bucks and install fresh batteries into the scope at the start of the hunt. There is no reason that a good quality red dot couldn't be used for dangerous game hunting. Having said that, practice makes perfect. Whatever a guy uses he needs to be practiced and proficient with it before hand.

Personally I wouldn't use a red dot on a dangerous game hunt simply because I wouldn't want to mess up a pretty double or drilling rifle that I would be forced to buy in order to go on said hunt.:p

[montana_charlie]

WHAT???? You can't lead an animal with a red dot? Where did that come from?
I think you are thinking about a laser, not a red dot and until you see the difference, your information is wrong.
As it happens, you are right. I WAS thinking of the laser sight.
Now I wonder which the author was talking about...

CM

[44minimum]

Well, I guess specifically I was thinking about a trijicon reflex site on your everyday average bolt action 458 Winchester or 416 or some other suitable caliber. I would never dream of putting one on a double rifle and anyone that will consider such a thing should be drawn and quartered. And backup iron sites are an absolute must. The aim points and a few others have batteries that last hundreds of hours and I guess if I was the real worrisome sort then they could be swapped every couple of days for new ones. Can't recall ever seeing a hunting show or reading an article where they used a red dot sight for dangerous game and I got to wondering why? Almost always the shooter is using a low powered scope and the PH has a double rifle. So far, I haven't read much that will convince me that a red dot sight would not be about the same as a low powered scope. But I am always willing to listen to more input. And I'm not going to Africa anytime soon so I guess it doesn't really matter but it does make me wonder.

[Larry Gibson]

In 2004/5 while on deployment I used my Eotech mouted forward of the handle on my M16A2 low right on top of the front handguard. I was able to use the iron sights if the dot wasn't there for whatever reason. The issue iron sight sights were zeroed for 300 meters and with the 1 moa dot sitting on top of the front sight I had a 250 meter zero. I could use the iron sights, the iron sights with the dot, the short range aperture with the dot or simply look over the top of the rear sight and put the dot on target and pull the trigger. In QCB training i always fired first and always had 100% hits (90 rounds during QCB COF) from 5 to 25 meters in a group that often could be covered with your hand. Considering 7 hits out of the 90 shots was considered a "go" I most often amazed the instructors running the course. I also had 100% hits on every night fire course let alone 40 hits out of 40 on the 300 meter qualification course. I had no problem whatsoever with batteries going dead during the entire deployment. They are easily tested and new ones put in before any excursion outside of fobbitland. Turning the Eotech on and off presented no problem as it was most often done automatically with little effort when bring the rifle to play. Besides, when in hadji country I routinely turned it on and left it on. The Eotech give an option of 4 hour or 8 hour operation before it with go to sleep. The 2 AA batteries lasted a long time and I never ran any pair more than half down on their charge. Also as an old infantry/SF soldier I constantly checked the "condition" of my weapon. Checking to see if the dot was on was accomplished when I looked through the sights to make sure they were not clogged or blocked. The Eotech now resides on my own AR as my home PDR. I also have a Burris Fastfire on my .41 Ruger Bisley. I have a Tasco red dot on a Spanish Destroyer and a Burris red dot on a .357 magnum Contender barrel. I'm only mentioning all of this to demonstrate the faith I have in such sights.

However, my concerns of such sight mounted on a DGR are twofold and may be moot since I have not tested them.

The first concern is of their ability to with stand recoil. There is a great deal of difference between the 18 - 20 ft lbs of recoil on my Conder .44 Magnum and the 50 ft lbs of recoil from my 450-400-70 or the lessor 43 ft lbs of recoil from my M70 three six bits. The larger .40 - .577 cartridges develop even more ft lbs of recoil. The question the begs are the electronic parts, optics and usually alloy rings able to withstand that kind of recoil to be reliable on a DGR.

The second concern is one of size. Many red dot/electronic sights are rather bulky and those with integral mounts sit up very high. As alluded to in an earlier post the rifle must come to shoulder with the line of sight imediately in line with the sight. If you must search for the sight with the eye all is wrong, especially on a DGR. The additional bulk of many red dot sights makes the some what unhandy. I have tried the Eoteck on a couple bolt actions and if mounted on the receiver it is too high for quick engagement. If mount forward on the barrel it is some what ingainly. I also have tried the Trijicon and Aimpoints and find the same with them. They all work fine on an AR platform but not so well on a fast handleing bolt action. To the contrary the small Burris Fast Fire is very unobtrusive and could probably be mount so it is also co-axial with the iron sights. If you didn't have time to turn it on the you are still aiming with the iron sights. I might have to try my Burris Fast Fire on the three six bits one of these days one of these days.

Larry Gibson

[jmorris]

I have a bunch of red dots including an aimpoint that has a battery life of 60,000 hours but the only one I would count on would be the trijicon acog reflex. It's tritum and fiberoptic. It's always on self adjusting for brightness and has no swtiches, buttons or batteries.

[44minimum]

Well, there you go. That would seem to be the answer to my pondering. If they simply cannot be mounted to line up with your eye when shouldering the rifle and looking down the barrel then that would explain why you never see them. Thank you for the input.

[44man]

Well, there you go. That would seem to be the answer to my pondering. If they simply cannot be mounted to line up with your eye when shouldering the rifle and looking down the barrel then that would explain why you never see them. Thank you for the input.
I use ultra dots on my revolvers and they mount the same as a scope, no higher.
Mine has withstood thousands of heavy .475 loads, much more then a rifle will do to them.

[KCSO]

No.

Red dots just don't seem to stand up as well and if it is dangerous you don't want to rely on a BATTERY. WTSHTF the battery will be dead. We tried red dots on patrol rifles and went back to iron sights, they work ever time. I personally wouldn't scope a dgr for the same reason.

[Adam10mm]

I would trust an Aimpoint.

Battery failures happen but are largely a thing of the past. In the rare case that it does occur, you have a big ghost ring to use. Center your target in the circle and apply the basic principles of marksmanship.

[44minimum]

44man, what is an ultradot, a brand or a certain model within a brand?

[44man]

44man, what is an ultradot, a brand or a certain model within a brand?
Go to www.ultradotwest and look them over. They are very tough and have a lifetime warranty plus they cost very little.
I have had the same battery in one of mine for four years.
If I am not mistaken, Ultra Dot is the original red dot.
Cheap ones like Bushnell, Millett, BSA, etc, will break easy under recoil. Some need the dot control turned to near max before you can see the dot.
The very expensive ones are great if you want to spend that much but the Ultra Dot is reasonable.
I can't afford $250 and up for one.
Look at my avitar, those are Ultra Dots.

[Ed Barrett]

Go to www.ultradotwest and look them over. They are very tough and have a lifetime warranty plus they cost very little.
I have had the same battery in one of mine for four years.
If I am not mistaken, Ultra Dot is the original red dot.
Cheap ones like Bushnell, Millett, BSA, etc, will break easy under recoil. Some need the dot control turned to near max before you can see the dot.
The very expensive ones are great if you want to spend that much but the Ultra Dot is reasonable.
I can't afford $250 and up for one.
Look at my avitar, those are Ultra Dots.

The address to their site doesn't seem to work for me.

[fecmech]

Try this ED. http://www.larrysguns.com/

[44man]

The address to their site doesn't semm to work for me.
Try www.ultradotwest.com/
They still pay the shipping charges too if I am not mistaken.
Larry's guns does the repairs too and he is a great guy. I had the tiny screws in a switch get loose on one and he fixed it super fast.

[cptinjeff]

I use ultra dots on my revolvers and they mount the same as a scope, no higher.
Mine has withstood thousands of heavy .475 loads, much more then a rifle will do to them.

AND

"Larry's guns does the repairs too and he is a great guy. I had the tiny screws in a switch get loose on one and he fixed it super fast.:veryconfu:veryconfu



Not trying to pick a fight or argue....I just want to learn from your expierience because I don't have any with the various red dots. Are these two quotes about the same dot?

[44man]

AND

"Larry's guns does the repairs too and he is a great guy. I had the tiny screws in a switch get loose on one and he fixed it super fast.:veryconfu:veryconfu



Not trying to pick a fight or argue....I just want to learn from your expierience because I don't have any with the various red dots. Are these two quotes about the same dot?
No, the one on the .475 is going strong but the one on my 45-70 had the switch get too easy to turn. There are some tiny screws in the switch that can't be reached unless the switch is taken apart with a special spanner. All red dots use the same type switch and sometimes the screws come loose. They still work OK if not too loose but I don't like a loose switch because if they get too loose, the dot will flicker or not come on.
Now the 45-70 does not recoil as hard as my .44 so it was not recoil, just vibration making the screws loosen just like the screws in the gun itself that need tightened all the time and Loc-Tite applied.
It took several years of shooting for them to loosen and is not a common problem.
The scopes themselves have taken a lot of punishment without a problem unlike the cheap ones that have glass pull loose inside the tube.
I was wiping out scopes and red dots like crazy so I called Magnum Research and they told me they use Ultra Dots and I have been very happy with them and can accept a small problem that is fixed free and quickly. The price is right and I can buy three instead of one of those expensive ones.
I feel for the price, the Ultra Dot is the best there is even though my mouth waters over some of the fancy ones but when a scope costs as much or more then the gun, I can use a napkin! :bigsmyl2:

[cptinjeff]

Thanks .44man, that clears it up and helps alot.

Although I don't intend to buy one of these any time soon (I can still see pretty good for irons), I just like to know what others experience and get some facts for the day when I might be in a position of need/want. This has been a very educational thread. Thanks again.[smilie=p:

[bearcove]

Iron, Iron or Iron sights.

But to each his own. All the guns I carry wondering in bear country are iron sighted.

[44man]

Iron, Iron or Iron sights.

But to each his own. All the guns I carry wondering in bear country are iron sighted.
Sure, best for a back up gun. But for a primary hunting gun, rifle, shotgun or pistol, the red dot is great and is much faster then open sights. Just keep both eyes open and put the dot on the animal and squeeze off the shot.
All of the guns I have built are made to fit me, muzzle loader or rifle so the sights are in line without looking at them so I just need the front sight and it works great but the older I get the harder it is to see and the more light I need. Most store bought guns do not fit everyone so a fella has to hunt for his sights, I would not like that for a bear tussle in dim light.
A pistol scope is just too dark in the morning and evening and the open sights disappear so the red dot allows me to hunt all the hours allowed.
I would not like to try and line up open sights on a fast moving bear either, I don't point shoot too good.

[bearcove]

I don't consider a dangerous game rifle to be a primary hunting rifle. Think that was the topic.

[Char-Gar]

Shooters are pretty well hide bound by tradition and they find it hard to break free. There are red dot sights out there plenty reliable and with plenty of battery life to be used on a DGR.

Murphy can screw up anything including welded on iron sights. If he can't get to your sights, he will get to the stock or your eyes. Dangerous game will always be dangerous, that is why they use the term.

[dogbert41]

Holy ****!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQahgDP8d_k&feature=related

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9D64GKHhBw&feature=related

I think an Aimpoint would be handy.

[ole 5 hole group]

When ever you're "up close & personal" you just need to know how far above the bore line your sights are and "adjust for it" because time is not your friend. Best not to get yourself in that position in the 1st place but there's always someone that does and a few pay a price for not utilizing their alloted time in an efficient manner. Those videos have been floating around for a couple years.

[44man]

I will stick to vicious charging chipmunks.

[craigf]

Possibly the best reason for not putting one on a hunting rifle is that it would look awfull. Imagine putting a roof rack on a Ferrari! It might look cool in the US but your PH in Africa would probably send you home. Learn to shoot with irons or a traditional scope and leave the red-dots to the armchair Rambo's.

[44man]

Possibly the best reason for not putting one on a hunting rifle is that it would look awfull. Imagine putting a roof rack on a Ferrari! It might look cool in the US but your PH in Africa would probably send you home. Learn to shoot with irons or a traditional scope and leave the red-dots to the armchair Rambo's.
Now that hurts us old folks that can't see for beans anymore! :bigsmyl2:

[rob45]

I met someone at the range a while back shooting a 375 H&H with (gasp!!) an EOTECH 512.
What really peaked my interest is that a storm had rolled in and sent everyone packing, while this guy kept shooting.

I went over to take a looksee and was certainly enlightened. At first it looked out of place, but when I witnessed the things he could do with it, aesthetics most definitely took a back seat.

Since that time I have done considerable research on that particular sight. I would not have any reservations at all putting one of those on a "dangerous game" rifle.