Revolver shot loads that WORK!

[geargnasher]

I've been unhappy with the options available for making .357 Magnum and .45 Colt shot loads (Snakeshot, Ratshot, whatever you want to call it), so I set about improving current methods. After reading about the tests and efforts of others here and elsewhere, I had an idea of what needed to be done. Mike Venturino did an article a while back that explains the challenges pretty well and gives some excellent data. I also read the article at Gunblast.com and thought a person could do much better if they wanted to. My objectives were:

1) Eliminate the leading normally associated with firing shot through a rifled barrel.
2) Maximize the shot payload and velocity while maintaining good patterns. I was hoping to include enough shot to equal "typical" boolit weights for these cartridges.
3) Be able to make them entirely myself without any commercial materials other than the normal handloading supplies.

To accomplish this, I decided I'd need to use a plastic "wad" or "shot cup" with petals like modern shotshells use to protect the bore, and the shot cup would need to extend beyond the cartridge brass like a normal boolit to contain as much shot as possible. CCI shot capsules accomplish this, but they are expensive and don't hold nearly the amount of shot that they could. I experimented with many different things, and finally settled upon using 1-gallon milk/water jugs for material as it will melt and form quite nicely without becoming too brittle, and it is self-lubricating and pliable, making it quite suitable for a shot wad. It's also universally considered trash, and is therefore FREE.

This is going to be long on pictures, so I won't include a bunch of pattern shots, but perhaps in a later post if folks want to see.

The .357 Magnum carries 125 grains of #9 shot and fills typing paper up at eight feet from a 4" barrel, with a half-dozen or so pellets off the paper.

The .45 Colt carries 255 grains of #9 shot and fills typing paper at 11 feet from a 7-1/2" barrel with maybe one or two strays outside the sheet.

Zero leading, patch pushed through the bore comes out with just a smudge of powder residue. A cylinder full of these can be fired without any of the shot capsules migrating forward and locking up the works, and I loaded these pretty hot ( equal to same weight of regular boolit with fairly slow powder). The slits down the sides of the shot cup, plus the tendency of the material to want to return to being flat create constant case tension, and the bottom of the shot cup it precisely dimensioned to bind with the case walls at the exact level of the overpowder wad create a good bit of friction with the case. Since straight-walled cases thicken toward the case head it is necessary to predict powder level and make the cup base the correct diameter. For the .45 Colt, there is no need to taper the wad, but the .357 Magnum had to be tapered quite a bit. if you shoot .41 and .44 Magnum skip this and use cushionless .410 wads. .38 Special is a waste of time IMO.

I make these by full-length sizing and priming brass, charging the powder, tamping down an over-powder wad squarely and tightly, pressing the shot wad tightly over the powder wad, installing a support collar over the protruding petals, filling and tamping the shot cup full to 1/16" below the collar, and then melting and forming the petal ends over the shot to make a sealed cap.

The shot cups themselves I make by cutting water jug material with a razor knife and a sheet metal template, wrapping the cutout around the mandrel, sliding the forming collar over the shot cup/mandrel, melting/forming the protruding plastic into a base cup for the shot, removing the mandrel and pushing the shot cup out of the collar and then slitting it down the opposite side of the formed edges to make a two-petal shot cup. In the last pic I put the .45 Colt forming tool with shot cup ready to melt/form the base from the plastic sticking out so I could get the process into one picture.

Gear

[scrapcan]

I am interested in hearing more on the making of the wad. Can you expand on that?

[geargnasher]

I am interested in hearing more on the making of the wad. Can you expand on that?

In the first and last pictures you can see the almost rectangular piece of plastic cut from the water jug. In the first pic you can see the sheet metal template I use as a guide to cut it out with the razor, this piece has to be EXACTLY the right size and shape to come out correctly in the finished product. I then wrap that piece around the tapered mandrel made from the bolt, and slide the "forming collar" s(made from two cut-off cases taped together with blue tape) over the mandrel to capture the plastic and form it into a tube with minimal gap where the sides wrap around and meet each other. At this point the forming collar extends about 1/16" beyond the mandrel end and the plastic "tube" extends .300 past the collar.

I use a propane torch to gently melt the plastic until it becomes clear and gooey and then fold and mash it down into the recess in the end of the tube with a butter knife. This forms the base of the shot cup, as in third from the right in the last pic. When it cools for a few seconds, I trim any excess, pull out the mandrel, and then push the shot cup out of the forming collar. At this point the shot cup will have a slit down one side from the original edges of the flat plastic meeting. I slit it again on the opposite side with a knife, forming two petals. In several of the pics I show shot cups with one slit (as formed) and the finished one next to it with two slits.

After I seat the shot cup in the case over the wad, I then install a cut off case over the protruding petals. This "nose-forming collar", together with the cut-to-minimum case, is made to the max SAAMI COL for the round so it will chamber in any modern revolver of that caliber.

Next, I fill the shot cup with shot and tamp it down firmly leaving 1/16" room at the top of the nose collar (room for the protruding petals to be melted, folded, and pressed into the end forming a sealed end cap over the shot).

The milk jug material is easy to form, just warm it until it becomes clear and starts to shrink and curl, then take a knife blade and fold it in on itself kind of like a shotshell crimp, and then heat again if necessary and mash it against the mandrel (for the base of the cup) or the shot and collar (for the business end) to force it to form a solid mass flush with the end of the collar. Any excess will be squeezed out the sides and can be peeled or trimmed off. I sharpen the collars with an outside deburring tool so the excess is pretty much cut off by itself.

Hard to describe without video, I'll post more pics later if I can figure a way to capture the melting/forming process where it will make sense.

Thanks for the interest,

Gear

[scrapcan]

Thank you Gear. I await further info.

[geargnasher]

This is the shotcup sequence and tools, bottom to top: Template, cut-out, tapered forming mandrel (note the "stop" made from a cut off cartridge), the "forming collar" made from two pieces of cut-off brass taped together (the nickle case is longer, with the casehead end sticking out of the tape, this mimics the exact shape of the inside of a sized case to make the shot cup tapered to fit. I had to adjust the depth several times to get it right (add powder volume and you have to increase the shotcup base diameter). The brass end of the forming collar is a short section from a fired case to give a more loose fit and is belled on the end sticking out of the tape to make starting it over the plastic-wrapped mandrel easier. Next up is a shot cup removed from the mandrel and collar, then at the top is a finished shot cup after slitting the other side.

Gear

[Catshooter]

That's terrific! How very elegant in design and execution.

Shot cups for my .45 Colts, here I come. Thanks a bunch.


Cat

[wistlepig1]

Nice job, I have used the Speers and was all that pleased with them--- not enough shot! Keep us updated, thanks

[geargnasher]

Catshooter, here's the .45 Colt dimensions, might save you some figgerin'. This is for SAA-style cylinders and leverguns, Ruger SBH will take longer wads.

Inside forming mandrel: .390" o.d. rod with 1.390" extending past the "stop" bushing.
Forming collar: 1.410" long, made from two cut-off cases, one fired, one sized. The sized one forms the base of the shot cup.
Nose collar for SAA: .400", rolled over slightly on one end to make rounded noses for easier cylinder insertion.
Wad/shotcup template: Exactly 1.300" X 1.700".

As always, YMMV.

If you want to make the whole shot cup longer, add exactly the same amount to the 1.700" dimension of the template, mandrel, forming collar, and nose collar so the amount of material for making the cup base and nosecap is adequate.


I'm adding these pics (for .45 Colt, the OP shows mostly .357 Magnum) to show how the blank is captured between the mandrel and forming collar with the mandrel recessed .020", then the melted end of the blank ready to mash into that recess, and finally what it looks like when pushed out of the forming sleeve and before the opposite side is slit. This makes the basic shot cup or 'wad', the nose end is formed the same way after loaded in the case, filled with shot, and the nose collar slipped over the protruding petals. The molten petal tips will press into the nose like hot glue, holding the exposed part of the wad together. See the OP pic for the "exploded" view of the .357 round with the wad pulled out to show it in it's finished form.

The last pic shows a few finished .45 Colts with the noses formed as I described above, I forgot a pic of the nose mandrel for the .45 but it's in the OP in several pics for the .357. These pack between half and 5/8 ounce of #9 shot, the equivalent of many .410 shotgun loads! They can be loaded pretty warm. I've pushed them beyond equivalent powder loads for Boolits, and haven't had a recovered wad disintegrate yet.

Gear

[leftiye]

Ingenious! Very exciting work there. Thanks for sharing.

[357maximum]

The ingenious stuff that comes out of the minds of the residents here never stop amazing me. That is some wicked kewl:mrgreen:....thanks for sharing.

[thx997303]

Might this work with 38 spcl cases? I unfortunately don't have a 357 magnum or a 45 colt.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Yes. those 45 Colt loads are the equivalent of the 2 1/2" 410. With 5 or 6 shot you can hunt rabbits, or make big mocassins drop dead. BvT

[geargnasher]

Might this work with 38 spcl cases? I unfortunately don't have a 357 magnum or a 45 colt.

Yes, but they will only hold about 100 grains of #9 shot, if you decide to try it I would highly recommend #12 shot to keep the pattern density. These are for close-range (inside of 10 feet) anyway, just not as effective as .357. Any snake beyond 10 feet isn't really a threat unless it's right around my house, so extreme range isn't necessary IMO.

Gear

[thx997303]

I will definitely have to give this a try. Once I reach home though.

Will be a couple of weeks.

[George Tucker]

Thats interesting, i have always loaded my 45 Colt cases, using gas checks, put one lip up over the powder, fill with #12 shot and put a check lip down over the shot, and crimp the case mouth, works good on snakes,

[yondering]

Awesome, geargnasher! Thanks for sharing; I'll have to try this. I've tried other shotshell methods, like you, and haven't been satisfied with any in 45 Colt.

What powder and charge weight are you using with these in 45 Colt?

[geargnasher]

GT, that works ok, but the velocity and penetration are low unless you use a really thick base wad, you can't get nearly as much shot in it as you can with a plastic wad, the patterns really blow up, and I've had terrible leading doing that. You can also crimp a round ball over the shot instead of a GC, but I live in the rocks and the shot richocheting back at me is bad enough without a ball to contend with.

Yondering, I'm using Longshot with the .45 Colt, since this is an "experimental" load I'm going to leave it at "work it up yourself for YOUR gun". I use longshot in both calibers because faster powders tend to compact the shot and are tough on the wad as it passes through the forcing cone, plus Longshot gives a lot of power for a small volume versus other slower pistol powders which gives me more room for shot. I get I'll pm you details tonight when I get back to my data.

If anyone else wants my load data, I'll be glad to discuss it via pm, but if you don't have an idea of where to start, maybe you better stick with commercially loaded shotshell loads.

Gear

[caillouetr9981]

With the snake population down here, you need to either be an expert pistol shot or have a shotshell alternative.

For years, I have used a simple method. Take a 38Special case, add 2.3gr. of Red dot, shove a GC on top, then fill the case with #9 shot and cap it with an inverted GC and crimp it slightly.
I usually go the extra by painting the end with some nail polish. This works great on snakes out to 20 feet or so.

[JIMinPHX]

I messed with those Speer capsules in a 4" .357 a few years back. When I did that, I found that 4.5 grains of Bullseye under #9 shot gave me my best patterns. I didn't get the doughnut shaped patterns that some other people had reported. I was pretty happy to have gotten what I ended up with.

You have certainly kicked it up a notch from where I left off. Your creativity, resourcefulness & craftsmanship are all impressive. I'd love to turn you loose in a fully equipped machine shop some time & see what you come up with.:smile:

[geargnasher]

I messed with those Speer capsules in a 4" .357 a few years back. When I did that, I found that 4.5 grains of Bullseye under #9 shot gave me my best patterns. I didn't get the doughnut shaped patterns that some other people had reported. I was pretty happy to have gotten what I ended up with.

You have certainly kicked it up a notch from where I left off. Your creativity, resourcefulness & craftsmanship are all impressive. I'd love to turn you loose in a fully equipped machine shop some time & see what you come up with.:smile:

Thanks, Jim. If I was ever let loose in a bona fide machine shop I wouldn't be heard from for years! I actually thought about contacting you about making some of these simple wad forming tools, but random bolts and scrap shell casings work fine. Maybe you can tinker with the idea and sell a few if you ever run out of something to do. :kidding:

Gear

[geargnasher]

With the snake population down here, you need to either be an expert pistol shot or have a shotshell alternative.

For years, I have used a simple method. Take a 38Special case, add 2.3gr. of Red dot, shove a GC on top, then fill the case with #9 shot and cap it with an inverted GC and crimp it slightly.
I usually go the extra by painting the end with some nail polish. This works great on snakes out to 20 feet or so.

I suspect you exaggerate a bit about the effective range of that being 20 feet. I've done the exact same thing in the past with .357 Magnum and #9 as you say with the gas checks and the pattern density was about five pellets per square foot at seven yards. Not too good for killing snakes. Even with 255 grains of #9 in .45 Colt from a 7-1/2" bbl and a good, taped wad, the pattern density at seven yards is only about two dozen per square foot, that's why I go to all the trouble to make my own custom wads.

Gear

[JIMinPHX]

Maybe you can tinker with the idea and sell a few if you ever run out of something to do. :kidding:


Yea, run out of things to do, that will be right after I win the lottery.;)

[crabo]

Yea, run out of things to do, that will be right after I win the lottery.;)

I seriously doubt that you would be able to run out of things to do if you won the lottery. You would have so many projects, you would never get done.

[inuhbad]

How do you go about making the plastic bases of these wads fuse together?

Heat, I presume, but how is the heat applied? Do you fold over the petals of the plastic and just cook 'em with a propane torch, or how do you do it?

Any photos or video of how you do this? I'm curious as I just can't picture it in my head very well.

[geargnasher]

How do you go about making the plastic bases of these wads fuse together?

Heat, I presume, but how is the heat applied? Do you fold over the petals of the plastic and just cook 'em with a propane torch, or how do you do it?

Any photos or video of how you do this? I'm curious as I just can't picture it in my head very well.

This is the part that's difficult to describe. See post #8, picture #3, I captured the molten plastic end after warming with a propane torch (heat gun would be better). Once the plastic is clear, it is hot enough to form (it's like hot glue). Then I take the side of a knife blade and just kind of roll/push/smush the molten plastic into the pocket at the end of the mandrel like buttering a biscuit. The molten plastic flows together and "homogenizes" nicely, just don't overheat it or it will be brittle and crumbly. When the plastic is "mounded" into the end of the tool, I press it firmly against a flat surface to pressure-form the plastic flush with the end of the forming collar, leaving a flat solid base for the shot cup that is the thickness of the difference between the mandrel and forming collar (.020" or so the way I do it). Any excess (usually none, I figured the length of the wad blank to have the exact amount necessary sticking out) is squeezed out past the edge of the forming collar and peeled off.

I form the nose the same way, slip the nose-forming collar over the protruding petals, fill with shot to 1/16" shy of the end of the collar, heat the petals, and form them down flush over the shot and even with the end of the nose collar, leaving consistent OAL.

Hope this helps,

Gear

[dakotashooter2]

FYI for anyone that wants to do this with the .41 mag. You shouldn't have to make them as a 410 wad will fit. In the past I have just cut off the excess wad and loaded them flush with a GC on top but I think I'm going to play around with leaving the excess wad and sealing it somehow.

[GP100man]

With the 357 I use MAX brass , anneal it so it does`nt spring back & size it in a 222 die , then load it & roll a bit with the shoulder portion of the die .

It makes fine shotshells for a GP100.

http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/xx110/GP100man/102_0229.jpg

[geargnasher]

FYI for anyone that wants to do this with the .41 mag. You shouldn't have to make them as a 410 wad will fit. In the past I have just cut off the excess wad and loaded them flush with a GC on top but I think I'm going to play around with leaving the excess wad and sealing it somehow.

You can also get by with the cushionless .410 wads in the .44 magnum if you aren't using shot smaller than #9. I mentioned this in the OP, that's why I'm only making wads for the .357 and .45 Colt. .410 wads ought to be the bee's knees for .41 Magnum.

You can cut off a piece of junk shell with a tubing cutter and slip it over the end of the excess and melt it over just like milk jugs, I've done this for the .44 in my various tinkering experiments.

Gear

[yondering]

The Winchester AA .410 wads are the hot ticket for 45 ACP shotshells made on the RCBS shotshell dies, but those are essentially a bottleneck case of ~.41 caliber inside the "neck". I've used them in 45 Colt too, they do work, but are too small. It sounds like this milk jug trick will be a lot better. Definitely a huge step up from the old method of two gas checks and shot exposed to the rifling.

[geargnasher]

With the 357 I use MAX brass , anneal it so it does`nt spring back & size it in a 222 die , then load it & roll a bit with the shoulder portion of the die .

It makes fine shotshells for a GP100.

http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/xx110/GP100man/102_0229.jpg

Those HPs will work pretty well on snakes, too! Do you get much leading? How about a pic of the loaded cartridge outside the cylinder?

I had terrible leading without some kind of petal-type wad, especially in .357 Magnum. So bad I didn't want to shoot any solid boolits afterward without a delead cleaning, which doesn't serve well in a woods gun where it may be a rattlesnake one minute and a feral pig the next.

I tried industrial coffee filter wads over cork, upside-down gc, plastic, you name it, the paper just disintegrated. Tried pillow ticking, stuffed it down on top of an overpowder gas check and filled that with shot and sealed with beeswax, that worked pretty well but was very short on shot capacity.

Bullshop Jr. was going to experiment with .30-'06 cases cut to cylinder length and fireformed to headspace on the cylinder throat shoulder in his .45 Colt revolver, then seal with a .44 gas check IIRC. Not sure how that turned out, but similar to your Max case in the .357. I was going to try that because it would truly enable maximum shot payload, but got sidetracked on my shotcup idea and it turned out to work so well I quit experimenting with anything else.

The next experiment is to determine the size shot that will go three-by-three inside my plastic .45 Colt wads (like 000 buckshot in 12-ga) and pack with BPI original shot buffer. The objective here is to make a close range 'possom/'coon/treerat/ringtail etc. varmint eliminator.....more to come!

Gear

[Recluse]

Gear, that is just SLICK!

Sooner or later, I'm going to HAVE to fire up the bird and fly me and the wife down there and see this setup and operation firsthand.

I dislike poisonous snakes. Big time. Few things can warm my heart faster than blasting one to Snake Hades.

Only thing better? Seeing one dropped in the sleeping bag of a sleeping PETA wacko at the Sweetwater Rattlesnake Roundup one year. [smilie=1:

:coffee:

[GP100man]

Heres a pic of a 357mag on the lft. & a MAX on the rt.
I use a cardboard wad as big as I can stuff in the case & it has to act as a scraper ,I can get 3 shots off of shotshells before seein any leadin !

http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/xx110/GP100man/102_0037.jpg

[geargnasher]

Gear, that is just SLICK!

Sooner or later, I'm going to HAVE to fire up the bird and fly me and the wife down there and see this setup and operation firsthand.

I dislike poisonous snakes. Big time. Few things can warm my heart faster than blasting one to Snake Hades.

Only thing better? Seeing one dropped in the sleeping bag of a sleeping PETA wacko at the Sweetwater Rattlesnake Roundup one year. [smilie=1:

:coffee:

Invitation is still open, I'll look for you at Lady Bird when the weather warms up a bit. Maybe I can talk you into letting me try out your Judge, the ultimate anti-snake pistol!

Gear

[geargnasher]

Heres a pic of a 357mag on the lft. & a MAX on the rt.
I use a cardboard wad as big as I can stuff in the case & it has to act as a scraper ,I can get 3 shots off of shotshells before seein any leadin !


Thanks for the pic and report. I get zero leading and no significant plastic fouling after 12 with the wads, but they are much more involved to make! I bet yours work just fine for all the actual snake usage they're likely to see. Is that hot glue, or epoxy sealing the end?

Gear

[GP100man]

Gear

I`ve found that a card on top then a small roll & sealing with waterproof carpenters glue will stand up to recoil well .

My first trys were dismal to say the least , hardly standin up to 1 shot with full 357 mag recoil!!

But at least they still would`nt lock up the cyl.!!!like the cci factory stuff!!!

[yondering]

Bullshop Jr. was going to experiment with .30-'06 cases cut to cylinder length and fireformed to headspace on the cylinder throat shoulder in his .45 Colt revolver, then seal with a .44 gas check IIRC. Not sure how that turned out,

I've done this, but with 444 Marlin brass, as it's the same thing but with a rim. It didn't work well; the bottleneck shape tends to lock up the cylinder after the first shot or two. Your method is much superior.

[leadman]

With a 357 magnum dedicated to carrying one round of snake shot it would be neat to bore one hole of the cylinder for a Max case with bird shot. Might improve the patterns. Don't know what would happen if you put a normal case in it.

Would be easy to do with a single action like a Blackhawk with an extra cylinder.

[AZ Pete]

Great post, thanks for posting your tutorial....

[jimb16]

I wonder if you could use a GC and make a tube out of the jug to slip into the GC????That would make for a better gas seal and still provide the "winged" sides........

[geargnasher]

I wonder if you could use a GC and make a tube out of the jug to slip into the GC????That would make for a better gas seal and still provide the "winged" sides........

Yes you can, but they work best under a wad made as I have described, as they have a tendency to get turned sideways in the forcing cone area and blow your seal, and the shotcup base works to keep them square. Two other issues: All revolver projectiles try to "pull" out of the cartridge under recoil, and shot wads that aren't fully integrated will separate and spill your shot everywhere, or not enable you to push the wad back in because of shot spilled under the edge of the petals if the wad jumps forward away from the gc, thus binding the works at the worst possible time. Other issue is you need at least two petals, as a single piece will unfurl and create lopsided patterns.

There are many, many ways to make handgun shotshell loads, and most of them work to one extent or the other, I'm just showing a way I found that outclasses all the ones I've tried. You don't have to do it this way, but you might try it and see.

Gear

[zardoz]

Very impressive procedure here.

One thing, I'm not clear on though. Am I to understand that your cartridge is primed and charged, then the wad, shot cup, and shot are loaded. Then, you put heat or flame on the end of the petal ends, while the round is "live"?

If so, then I would be a bit concerned about bringing a loaded cartridge near a heat source. Am I being a nervous Nellie here on this point?

[geargnasher]

Very impressive procedure here.

One thing, I'm not clear on though. Am I to understand that your cartridge is primed and charged, then the wad, shot cup, and shot are loaded. Then, you put heat or flame on the end of the petal ends, while the round is "live"?

If so, then I would be a bit concerned about bringing a loaded cartridge near a heat source. Am I being a nervous Nellie here on this point?

You're just heating the petals sticking out of the end of the nose forming collar, and the lead shot is one heckuva heat sink. I sometimes form the molten plastic over the shot with my fingertips, it's not that hot (but then again, I'm a diesel mechanic and have very calloused hands).

I have no trouble whatsoever doing this. If it makes you a little nervous, you can always finish your wads in a "dummy" case with filler like black pepper under the shot wad, then use one of those can opener pads to grab the nose and pull the finished "capsule" out.

I was just showing "a" way to do it, not "the" way, part of the reason I wanted to post this was to see if anyone had ideas to improve my methods or had better methods of their own they wanted to share, I appreciate all the interest and responses! :Fire:

Gear

[zardoz]

Yes, thanks.

One thing that I was thinking of to seal the end of the finished shot cartridge, would be to fabricate a brass cup or something, that could screw into the end of of pencil type soldering iron. Then, this would act sort of like the final crimp station, sort of like a crimp on a regular shot shell.

The heat could be controlled by a rheostat for the soldering pencil, to the exact melt point for the milk jug plastic. No open flame, and might even get very consistent ends on the shot capsule for better patterns.

Just thinking out loud here.

[DLCTEX]

I was thinking of turning a rounded shape in the end of a bolt to heat with the torch, (wooden handle here) Use the heated hollow bolt to form and seal the the petals.

[Hank10]

Gear, interesting, I'll give it try. More shot is always good. I've been making shot loads for 40 or 50 yrs. using a method I found that shoots excellent patterns but with less shot. It's the gascheck but with a plastic wrap. The wrap is .015 clear plastic upholstery material. A piece cut just long enough to reach from the overpowder GC to the overshot GC and long enough to make about 2 1/4 wraps.
Roll it up and drop it into the case, making sure it rolled so that it doesn't unroll in the rifling. It will unroll itself against the case walls, fill with shot and crimp GC over it. Definately not as many shot but plenty for snakes and many grouse, rabbits, ground squirrels, etc. have been done in with it. I've used this method to make shot loads in as small a case as .30 carbine for a Ruger blackhawk. Works good if you can get by with less shot.
H10

[thx997303]

Oh ****, I got to thinkin. I wonder if this method could be used with a 45-70

Maybe make it good enough to kill a grouse. Dang things are all over the place, and if I don't see a deer, I shoot a couple grouse.

Good eatin.

Edited to add: If the forum can edit out the word c rap, then why can't it edit out the more foul language?

[geargnasher]

Yes, thanks.

One thing that I was thinking of to seal the end of the finished shot cartridge, would be to fabricate a brass cup or something, that could screw into the end of of pencil type soldering iron. Then, this would act sort of like the final crimp station, sort of like a crimp on a regular shot shell.

The heat could be controlled by a rheostat for the soldering pencil, to the exact melt point for the milk jug plastic. No open flame, and might even get very consistent ends on the shot capsule for better patterns.

Just thinking out loud here.

Try it. I've been toying with a more rounded nose-forming collar so these will feed in my Henry. Problem so far is I have to slice little wedges out of the petals to they don't overlap each other when the nose collar is pressed in to place.

I'll report back on patterns and such, I don't expect much with the higher velocity of the rifle, maybe "donuts"?? My wife keeps reminding me that I DO have a good Winchester single-shot .410. Oh well.

Gear

[webfoot10]

Hi All; If any of you guys have the 2nd edition of RELOADING FOR SHOTGUNNERS by
Robert S.L Anderson. There is an article ( Loads & Reloads for Stockless Shotguns) by
Dean Grennell that gives all the information for making shot loads for revolvers and
the 45 auto pistol. He used .308 cases trimmed and sized in .308 dies and in .44 mag
dies for use with the half moon clips in .45 acp revolvers. The article is quite long, but
shows all the steps needed to load shotshells for pistols. The book is by DBI Books Inc
and is the Revised and Expanded 2nd Edition. Hope this helps. webfoot10

[geargnasher]

Hi All; If any of you guys have the 2nd edition of RELOADING FOR SHOTGUNNERS by
Robert S.L Anderson. There is an article ( Loads & Reloads for Stockless Shotguns) by
Dean Grennell that gives all the information for making shot loads for revolvers and
the 45 auto pistol. He used .308 cases trimmed and sized in .308 dies and in .44 mag
dies for use with the half moon clips in .45 acp revolvers. The article is quite long, but
shows all the steps needed to load shotshells for pistols. The book is by DBI Books Inc
and is the Revised and Expanded 2nd Edition. Hope this helps. webfoot10

Good info, I read that (FIL has a copy), but if you reread my OP you'll see why I was looking for a better way. I think I found it.

Gear

[jason867]

Well, I ran out of cast bullets to reload so I set about creating my own shot shell, in .38sp.

It's not as nice as the original poster's stuff.

I primed a winchester .38 shell with a federal small pistol primer. I loaded it up with 3.7 grains of unique, to be conservative. The best thing I could find around the house to use as a powder stopper was to punch a small bit of candle wax, I made mine a little less than a 1/4" thick. I then took some milk jug plastic and did my best to mimick the op's method. Mine didn't turn out as nice; if I remember correctly I was only able to fit about 60-70 grains of 7-1/2 shot from a 12ga shell. I then sealed up the end with a lighter and put a dabble of super glue around the rims edge to be sure. It's looks like someone wadded up some gum and stuck it in the case, lol.

I don't plan on making any more of these, too much effort, not enough patience, and too little use for shotshells.

I'm kind of leery to test fire it. The idea of the powder being compacted into a much smaller space worrys me.

And I just had another thought, does anyone think the wax bit between the powder and shot casing will combust and make the round dangerous or something?

I guess I'm looking for assurances that this thing won't blow up or damage my taurus 85 ultra lite 38 snub

what do you all think? I'm thinking I'd rather not risk it the more I think about it.

[geargnasher]

Jason, if it worries you, don't do it. You can buy ready-made CCI shotshells for .38 already loaded and ready to go.

Gear

[christian]

Hallo geargnasher

- You do SUPER work!!
Thanks for the sharing of all this info.!

Chr.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Well done ! Very nice explanation !
I like IT ! Sure beats my idea to take an old Dan Wesson 4 " 41 mag barrel and make a smothbore out of it. With this "Jug Shot" setup I can still have an accurate revolver with the 6th shot for pest control.

[thx997303]

I just loaded ONE shot shell using this method.

Interestingly, it feeds just fine in my Marlin.

Unfortunately, due to OAL constrictions, I think I may be able to squeeze in a grand total of 250 gr of shot. I also, have no idea of the shot size.

The shot was pulled from a shell labeled "super handicap" 1 7/8 - 7 1/2 or something like that. I found it on the ground.

It contains a measured 225 gr of shot. 15 gr of Unique is the powder charge.

The shot sits directly on top of the powder charge, and is very slightly compressed.

I found a max charge of 20 gr Unique listed for a 300 gr flat point, so I imagine 15 gr is safe for the shot weight.

Assuming nobody thinks this is dangerous, I will make up a few more and see how they do.

Oh, and I actually formed the top of the shot cup by heating up the milk jug plastic, rough forming it over the shot, then heating it again and pressing a 50 AE case down over it. I believe it did pretty well.

Heck, it even gave me an imprint of the flash hole.

http://i312.photobucket.com/albums/ll331/thx997303/100_3025.jpg

[shootingbuff]

I have not made my own shot shells - I have not made my own shot shells.

What every article for what it is worth - for what it is worth has stated is that better patterns will result from less than max loads.

Neat idea. Once I get time I will try this. Thanks for the right up.

sb

[geargnasher]

Jeremy, looks like you're the only other person that's ever actually going to try this. What caliber are you using? Is that .45-70 or .450 Marlin? Can't tell from the angle of the pic if it has any taper or not. I'm surprised you don't have more room for shot than you do, is your shotcup compressed against the powder? I get a full 250 grains of #9 shot in a .45 Colt case with half as much powder, give me some details on what's in the case.

I'd say you should easily be able to surpass .410 shotgun ballistics with this, but your patters are going to royally suck beyond about 20 feet at any decent velocity. Also keep in mind that you only need enough powder to fully obturate the bore with the shotcup, and if you work up from cat-sneeze velocities, fire through cardboard, and inspect your shotcups carefully you can get a really good idea of when you should stop adding powder. If you started off with five grains of unique, recovered the wad, you might notice slight land engravings on the plastic, but no burn marks. As you increase, you will note progressively sharper and sharper land engravings and the pellets will make deeper impressions in the plastic from the inside, indicating that the shotcup has sealed in the bore and is getting full use of the available pressure from the burning powder. Eventually, you'll get to the point that the undershot wad and shotcup base can't contain the pressure and you'll blow the whole center out of the shot column, possibly leaving the petals stuck in the bore as a nice obstruction for a following shot. Please be careful, and if you don't see your wad, check the bore each shot to make sure it's clear.

Gear

[thx997303]

I'm using 15 gr of Unique underneath 225 gr of shot. The caliber is 45-70.

The shot cup is compressed against the powder charge.

I decided on 15 gr of unique because it is a full 5 gr below a max charge for a 300 gr boolit. And that's a trapdoor load.

I will definitely check the bore after each shot.

So, you're suggesting I fire the shotshell through cardboard?

Is this to catch the wad for inspection?

I should be able to get 250 gr of shot into the cup, but when I loaded 300 gr of shot it got stuck in the chamber of the marlin and threw powder everywhere.

I'm thinking it's possible that 15 gr of unique is a bit much. If that's the case, It should open up a lot more space for shot.

We'll see what happens.

With the current powder charge and the shot cup set up the way it is, I can't pull the shot cup out by hand, but I don't believe that the case neck tension would be greater than that on a boolit plus the crimp.

So, with 225 gr I'm sure I'm in a safe, and quite possibly cat sneeze load range.

I'll load a few more and see what happens. After that I should adjust the powder charge as necessary.

[geargnasher]

I don't think you're in an unsafe range for the powder, but remember that the dynamics of a Nylon shotcup are quite different than a boolit. Also remember that you aren't using a shock-absorbing wad, either. Unique should be a fine choice, but I would try HS6 or Longshot myself since they are much less bulky for the same energy, are slower burning but still burn fairly clean at low pressures, and make room for more shot.

The cardboard is a shotcup trap and patterning board, good for diagnosis. Use at least two layers to catch the shotcup.

Good to keep the powder charge compressed, you get maximum energy out of it with zero free air gap, just like in a shotgun shell. The compression of the powder also makes your published loading data useless, as that data was most certainly worked up with only a half-casefull of powder or less and removing that space really spikes pressures.

I noticed you didn't make a very big "boolit" end of the capsule sticking out, you can gain quite a bit if you'll take a fired, unsized .45 ACP case and cut the head off of it to make a nose forming collar, that way you can slip it over your shotcup petals, fill it with shot, seal the end and then remove the collar. That will leave a formed shotcup nose poking out that will look like a boolit nose. You should be able to get an ounce of shot in there easily, but based on my experience with .45 Colt I wouldn't go more than 300 grains without using some sort of shock-absorbing wad under the shotcup unless you were using milder loads. It really doesn't take much, you aren't trying to push the shot to 2,000 fps, just about half that is plenty for small game, and your patterns will probably be gone long before killing velocity is anyway.

Gear

[x101airborne]

Gear, brother I'm impressed. Good on ya. If you gave me a sponge and an anvil, I'd bring the anvil back in pieces. I never would have figured that out for myself.

[excess650]

Years ago, and I mean 30 years ago, I made cylinder length cases for the 44mag from 30-40 Krag cases. The rims need to be turned down a bit.....might need to try that again.

Heat shrink tubing comes in various diameters. I wonder if anyone has tried using it as "tubes"?

It might be worth searching the 'net to see if anyone makes LDPE thin wall tubing in useable diameters. Larger diameter straws come to mind.....just thinking out loud!

[thx997303]

Gear,

I made a shotcup containing 300 gr of shot, unfortunately it was too long to cycle in my marlin's action, and when I managed to get it out of the mag tube, I chambered it just to see.

Of course that was dumb. The darn shotcup got stuck in the rifling and had to be driven out.

I think that with a bit lower powder charge, I should be able to get about 300 gr of shot in there.

I'm thinking I may just reduce the powder charge to 10 gr. Should be sufficiently cat sneeze.

With the compressed powder charge, I don't think we get into any dangerous areas like SEE, even with light loads of the slow burners.

I wonder though, wouldn't having only the one seam do some pattern deformation?

And how far from the muzzle would you suggest I place the cardboard?

Another thing, I was thinking about the whole lack of a shock absorber in these loads.
Got me wondering if a thin slice of hot glue attached to the base of the shotcup would be sufficiently shock absorbing. Might also give a bit more square base. I would think the wad leaving the shot as uniformly as possible would be a good thing.

Well, I better get a hold of some more shot so I can do some testing. I think I have a bag of it somewhere.

[geargnasher]

Years ago, and I mean 30 years ago, I made cylinder length cases for the 44mag from 30-40 Krag cases. The rims need to be turned down a bit.....might need to try that again. Why? Just use .410 cushionless wads, trim the petals to cylinder length+1/4" after seating in the case, slip a cut-off case section over the petals just short of cylinder length, and heat/melt the ends of the wad petals to seal over the shot.

Heat shrink tubing comes in various diameters. I wonder if anyone has tried using it as "tubes"? To much friction in the bore.

It might be worth searching the 'net to see if anyone makes LDPE thin wall tubing in useable diameters. Larger diameter straws come to mind.....just thinking out loud! LDPE tubing is available, but milk jugs are free, come in various thicknesses to suit your needs, melt and reform easily, and are very tough.


Gear,

I made a shotcup containing 300 gr of shot, unfortunately it was too long to cycle in my marlin's action, and when I managed to get it out of the mag tube, I chambered it just to see.

Of course that was dumb. The darn shotcup got stuck in the rifling and had to be driven out. That's why I suggested a .45 ACP case for a forming collar, it shouldn't be much more than .451" ID at the mouth and gets smaller very quickly toward the case head, you could section the case somewhere between the case mouth and head to get a collar the right length, taper, and ID to form a good nose on you shotcup that would ride inside the lands. That way, at least in theory, you could make a cartridge that would approach the max OAL that will feed in your gun and still be able to extract it from the chamber intact.

I think that with a bit lower powder charge, I should be able to get about 300 gr of shot in there.

I'm thinking I may just reduce the powder charge to 10 gr. Should be sufficiently cat sneeze. Only one way to find out!

With the compressed powder charge, I don't think we get into any dangerous areas like SEE, even with light loads of the slow burners. No real danger of that here, or with Unique period.

I wonder though, wouldn't having only the one seam do some pattern deformation? Why do you only have one seam? Yes, it will deform the pattern. Take a razor knife of some sort and slit the shotcup in one or two places lengthwise after forming the base so you have two or three petals like a shotgun wad, that way it will expand evenly like a flower and brake quickly upon muzzle exit allowing clean shot departure.

And how far from the muzzle would you suggest I place the cardboard? Ten feet. Wear your safety glasses!

Another thing, I was thinking about the whole lack of a shock absorber in these loads.
Got me wondering if a thin slice of hot glue attached to the base of the shotcup would be sufficiently shock absorbing. Might also give a bit more square base. I would think the wad leaving the shot as uniformly as possible would be a good thing. IDK, perhaps you can try it and see, the proof of any improvement is in the patterns and the condition of the recovered shotcup, and in a rifled, cylinder-bore barrel there is only so much you can do.

Well, I better get a hold of some more shot so I can do some testing. I think I have a bag of it somewhere.

Have fun! Post pics of your recovered shotcup and ten foot patten, I can give you my two cents worth of feedback.

Gear

[thx997303]

Ha, for some reason I thought you were only using one seam. Guess I should have looked more carefully.

I'm going to redo the one I have done. I'm going to give the 45 acp a try, though the 50 AE case worked Ok.

I'm going to start at 10 gr unique and I'm going to attempt to get 300 gr of shot in there.

I'll take pics. Probably be able to test them soon. Next weekend at the latest.

[thx997303]

Well, I'm having a heck of a time making these shot cups.

I need some practice.

At the rate I'm going, I may not get to test these this weekend.

[geargnasher]

"Blow up" the pics on my posts 1, 5, and 8, study the associated text and way I made the tools to form the shotcups. I'll bet you will pick up something new each time you look at the pics up close. With the right tools it is a piece of cake. If not, you will struggle. The key is to get the mandrel the correct size and build a forming sleeve from some old cartriges with the heads and web cut off. Your template for the shotcup is important, too, as it determines how much plastic you have to form the base and how much left over plastic there is to form the petals after the shotcup is seated.

Gear

[thx997303]

Alright, I got making the shot cups down. Just need to use a razor blade so I can make the plastic the right length in the first place. Scissors aren't near precise enough if you ask me.

I found a bolt that was a bit loose inside the 45-70 case and cut a 45 acp case for a nose collar.

Of course, I use the nose collar for forming the nose, and for making the base.

Here is everything I used to make the shot shell.

http://i312.photobucket.com/albums/ll331/thx997303/100_3040.jpg

Here is the shotshell cycling into the chamber from the mag tube.

http://i312.photobucket.com/albums/ll331/thx997303/100_3041.jpg

And here it is ejecting from the rifle.

http://i312.photobucket.com/albums/ll331/thx997303/100_3043.jpg

So I'm gonna make up a few more of these and see how they work.

[geargnasher]

TIP: Once you're happy with the dimensions of your cutout, make a template out of sheet metal that you can cut around with your razor knife, that way you get consistent shapes and that saves a lot of headaches too.

Looks good, can't wait to see how these patten. What's the twist of your Marlin?

Gear

[thx997303]

It's got a 1:20 twist.

[thx997303]

Well carp.

I made a few more shot cups and when I got ready to put the shot in, I reached for my bag of shot.

SURPRISE! Some jerk turned my bag of shot into .454 round balls!

So this project is on hold until I get myself some more shot.

[geargnasher]

$5/1.5lbs at Wal-Mart, 25 individual containers. Try to get #9 if you can, but #8 is better than #7-1/2.

Gear

[Doby45]

I gots to make me some of these, bet they would be good in my Ruger BH .357

[thx997303]

I've never seen shot at wal-mart.

Is it located in housewares? :kidding:

But seriously, where would it be located if they have it?

You aint talkin about buying shotshells and mutilating them are ya? I have a shotgun and the idea of mutilating shotshells to make shotshells sounds kind of like masturbation.

[Doby45]

Yhea, I am sure he was talking about abusing regular shotshells.. ;)

[thx997303]

Some days, I'm a little slow on the uptake. :D

[geargnasher]

I've never seen shot at wal-mart.

Is it located in housewares? :kidding:

But seriously, where would it be located if they have it?

You aint talkin about buying shotshells and mutilating them are ya? I have a shotgun and the idea of mutilating shotshells to make shotshells sounds kind of like masturbation.

What's wrong with that?

Gear

[thx997303]

Did I say there was anything wrong with it? :shock:

Well I'll have to see if I can't find some change and pic up a few shotshells.

I'm a little poor at the moment. Maybe somebody has some they would like to donate to the cause. [smilie=l:

[thx997303]

I tested the ONE shot shell I made.

I was unable to recover the wad, since I didn't have enough cardboard available.

I shot it at a tree.

At about 15 feet it gave me a perfectly round, roughly head sized pattern.

The center was not blown out of the pattern.

Honestly, I don't believe further testing is required on this load. Seems like 10 gr Unique and 350 gr of shot will do what I need it to do.

[geargnasher]

Good job! Was your bore still clean?

Gear

[thx997303]

Yep, still as clean as it usually is.

[Daddyfixit]

Fantastic concept Geargnasher! Looks like a real winner. I've tried the CCI shot shells with poor results.
I think there is a real marketing opportunity for one of you machinist here the refine and market some tools!!
I'd buy one[smilie=s:

[thx997303]

Make it from a bolt and a properly sized case cut off into a collar.

I used a file and a dremel to make mine.

[thx997303]

Alrighty then, I think it's about time to speed up production.

I'm thinking of making a setup that will allow me to vacuform these cups.

The idea is to make a gang mold, figuring about two rows of six, that is the exact size and shape you need for the shot cup.

The mold is placed over a vacuum source, and the plastic is heated inside of a frame, then pressed over the mold. Once the frame seals, the plastic is sucked down over the mold, giving precise detail.

I'll let you know how things go as I build the thing.

[geargnasher]

I don't know if this will help, but let me relate some of my developmental experiences, might help you as you plan your design and method. When I first started playing around with the plastic shot cups, I made a forming set out of a stainless-steel bushing and a piece of rod. The idea was to heat a square piece of milk jug to the right temperature, then place it over the bushing and stretch it down in there with the rod. Even after chamfering the bushing considerably it still wouldn't work because the milk jug has to be stretched too much, and ends up thin as a ziplock baggie in places. Then I tried to melt milk jug plastic gently to get a quantity of liquid I could pour in the bushing and pressure form with the same rod, but the stuff cooled too fast. That was how I came up with the idea I posted here. Once I learned that the plastic could be melted and formed to an extent without becoming brittle I knew I could form bases, but still needed to use unmelted plastic for the sides. It kind of evolved into this method which I still have yet to improve upon, but I certainly encourage you to do so, keep us posted.

Gear

[nanuk]

Gear, another application I see here is close range grouse gun with a muzzleloading rifle

just make them up inside copper tubing or something, to simulate a round, then pull them out after completion.

a wrap of cellophane tape would hold the slits together enough for handleing, then just powder and ram one home. you would have to experiment to get the size right for a "Snug" fit.
Perhaps a long taper punch to taper the tube, with a press fit endcap to you could push it out. then just make the tube long enough for the whole thing.
You could end up with a sealed shot cup.

for extra strength, so you think alternating 2/3 height slits, say two from bottom up at 12, and 6 oclock and two at 3 and 9 from top down? no tape needed, but would still allow fragmenting outside of barrel?

[geargnasher]

Nanuk, that could certainly be tried, only one way to know how it would work. The shot cups are no problem to make "stand alone" and sealed on both ends, just make one more tool for holding the cup during shot filling and sealing the final end. Several shock-absorbing wads would, of course, be needed for this since black powder is really tough on shot. The wads could be glued in a stack to the back of the shot cup with hot glue or super glue to simplify reloads in the field. The finished shotcup/wad assemblies could be carried stacked up in those fancy tubes sometimes used for cigars. Just a thought.

Gear

[thx997303]

I actually worked on the 45-70 shot loads specifically for a close range grouse load that is legal in my state.

Needless to say, it was a success.

Now I just gotta shoot me some grouse with em.

[seppos]

I tried .410 shotcups in 45-70..
Beefed up the base with duct tape and used about that much shots that fitted to .410 shotcup.
I used VV:s N110 powder.. Dont remember the amount now..
My impression was that it was too slow for the purpose..
Also.. I should propably make a some kind of separate cup to "simulate" the bullet, as I had to feed the cartridges manually to the chamber of my GG.
.410 cups are handy, as one could use them in calibers like .44 and .45 and maybe they fit also to .41..?

S

[geargnasher]

.410 cups might work in the .41 Magnum and do, sort of, work in a .44 Magnum, but are a waste of time in the .45 calibers. You would be better off using two gas checks and a roll crimp like most people do, the bore leading will be the same and the patterns will blow just as badly.

Gear

[thx997303]

Was just thinking about this today.

I am very glad I posted my load and how much shot I got in the case. I forgot to write it down. [smilie=l:

Gotta get on the vacuforming experimentation.

[thx997303]

I tried my first attempt at vacuforming today.

So far, my observations are this.

The base of the shotcup formed perfectly. Nominal thickness and beautiful.

Unfortunately, since I didn't secure the mold properly, it fell over.

I was able to gather some more useful data though.

The sides are uniformly .008" thick. I'm curious as to whether this thinner HDPE will stand up to the rifling upon firing.

I'll post more as I progress.

Honestly it seems that a double layer of HDPE (milk jugs) may give the results I want.

[thx997303]

Just tried another run using the secured mold this time, and double thickness of plastic.

The mold for 45-70 is too long and straight, I'm guessing that the method exactly as I'm doing it now, may work for 357 mag, but not 45-70.

The base is extremely uniform in it's shape and thickness using this method.

I cut the base in half of the double thickness and the first single thickness. Interestingly enough, they both matched the original thickness of a single sheet of HDPE.

This stuff is surprisingly touch, even at only .004" thick, but I do not think it will hold up to firing.

I'm going to try a variation here in a bit.

[gunslinger20]

I have only read 3 pages of the thread soooooo if im out of line let me know but here gos why cant you drop the powder charge in the case insert a gas ck (cup up) insert a precut measured lenth of 410 case (plastic) fill with shot gas ck on top. If needed crimp 1 or both ends of the 410 case.

[thx997303]

Less shot capacity that way.

With a 3 piece cup like that, I imagine the patterns would blow quite readily.

[gunslinger20]

Sorry I didnt specify 45 colt ruger revolver.

[dhufford]

In the days of Sketer Skelton articles, a friend and I had Ruger 45 LC's with the extra 45 ACP cylinder. The ACP cylinders were modified by using a adjustable reamer to produce a straight bore in the cylinder of appropriate size. Marlin 444 brass was cut down to the Ruger cylinder length. I reamed three of the ACP chambers to what I termed "45 Huntsman".

I loaded (7)grains of Unique, a thin card wad, 1/2 ounce of 7 1/2 shot, another thin card wad, and then sealed flush and water-proofed the top with "Poly Seam Seal".

The attached picture show a 3/32" thick piece of polypropylene that was shot with one load at (10)yards. The 7 1/2 shot went clean through the plastic. I circled each hole in the plastic made by the 7 1/2 shot with a black marker. From memory, I believe the load started out with 155 shot, with 144 poking holes in the torso sized plastic.

We also experimented with "BB" shot for a "hallway clearer". A law enforcement friend saw an application for this. The energy of this size load, in the 45 Hunstman, is about equal to a 38 Special. We achieved similar patterns and it would definitely give one holes for thought.

[Matt_G]

Welcome to the board dhufford.
Outstanding first post.
You're going to fit right in around here. :drinks:

[Cadillo]

This appears to work well, bt also appears to be quite labor intensive. Has anyone ever loaded .45 Colt, 45-70, etc. using cut down .410 wads, shot, and an overshot wad , gas check etc.?

[geargnasher]

I have only read 3 pages of the thread soooooo if im out of line let me know but here gos why cant you drop the powder charge in the case insert a gas ck (cup up) insert a precut measured lenth of 410 case (plastic) fill with shot gas ck on top. If needed crimp 1 or both ends of the 410 case.

You don't need to read the whole thread, just go read the FIRST post, I explained all of that there. The method you mention works, as does powder/gc/shot/round ball, but it blows patterns and leads the bore something terrible. My method solves these problems.

Gear

[geargnasher]

This appears to work well, bt also appears to be quite labor intensive. Has anyone ever loaded .45 Colt, 45-70, etc. using cut down .410 wads, shot, and an overshot wad , gas check etc.?

Yes. We covered that several times. The .410 wads are too small to work very well in the 45 calibers. The petals spread and shot gets jammed against the rifling, causing leading. In a smoothbore this isn't much of a problem, in fact I have chamber inserts to shoot 28-ga. shells in my 12-ga, and the 28-ga. wads spread plenty once out of the chambers and into the barrels, but the smoothbore just doesn't lead like a rifled barrel will with shot.

It is fairly labor intensive, but how many of these do you reall think you'll ever need to make? I've only killed one snake with them (.357Magnum version) and most of the others I've fired have been in testing. I did go to the skeet range a few times, last time I blew a dozen or so of them at station #1 and #7 with my Ruger .45 Colt, actually broke most of the birds I shot at!

Gear

[geargnasher]

In the days of Sketer Skelton articles, a friend and I had Ruger 45 LC's with the extra 45 ACP cylinder. The ACP cylinders were modified by using a adjustable reamer to produce a straight bore in the cylinder of appropriate size. Marlin 444 brass was cut down to the Ruger cylinder length. I reamed three of the ACP chambers to what I termed "45 Huntsman".

I loaded (7)grains of Unique, a thin card wad, 1/2 ounce of 7 1/2 shot, another thin card wad, and then sealed flush and water-proofed the top with "Poly Seam Seal".

The attached picture show a 3/32" thick piece of polypropylene that was shot with one load at (10)yards. The 7 1/2 shot went clean through the plastic. I circled each hole in the plastic made by the 7 1/2 shot with a black marker. From memory, I believe the load started out with 155 shot, with 144 poking holes in the torso sized plastic.

We also experimented with "BB" shot for a "hallway clearer". A law enforcement friend saw an application for this. The energy of this size load, in the 45 Hunstman, is about equal to a 38 Special. We achieved similar patterns and it would definitely give one holes for thought.

Very nice, thanks for sharing. I think you have made yourself a very handy little gun and load.

Gear

[thx997303]

Vacu forming was a flop.

I mentioned these shot loads to my father in law, and now he wants to try them.

Guess I better make a few more, still gotta get more shot though.

[geargnasher]

$5 Box of El Cheapo Supremo 12-gauge #7-1/2s at Wally World gets you over a pound and a half of shot......

Gear

[ditchtiger]

Few posts here but I've been shooting for 40 years and reloading for 35 of them.
I've made good shot loads using gas checks for the top and bottom of the shot load.
I would have to check my reloading tables to find the powder charge but I did not have lead issues and it holds a good amount of lead.
I think both checks were installed inverted.

[VenomBallistics]

If I may make a recommendation ..... I see you fabricated your tools to do this.
if you can "clean up" the design there in .. MARKET THEM :smile:

[geargnasher]

Venom, I appreciate the vote of confidence, but I don't think there's enough curiosity to support a product line.

If you or anyone else is interested in developing and producing a toolkit to do this, feel free, I shared this information to help out anyone who might have the same needs as I do, but no way to fulfill them with existing products or processes.

But if you do bring such a kit to market, I want a complimentary set in .45 Colt! :kidding:

Gear

[Axton1]

geargnasher
Thanks for posting this! Being new to the site, it's amazing the information available here! Great site! Have lurked on here awhile - just had to get in on here!
:-)
In the past few days, I had a few minutes to make a "bolt" - or would you call it a mandrel - to form the wads on. Got a case cut down to slip over it ok. I finally got a pattern made up to cut the plastic by that seems to come close to repeating what you have pictured. Then I ran into a small problem - my propane torch is busted so - improvise! I broke out a small solder iron and used it. (Well after I tried a butane lighter, but that made an ugly mess!) Using the iron, I could melt the plastic fairly well but had to cut it into 6 petals to get it flat - still does't look as good as yours but, my bad. But I was able to fill them and seal them up before sticking them in a shell as I can take the iron and "touch" the split in the sides in a few places and seal it. Anyhow, got a few questions if you don't mind and have a moment.
1. What size propane torch are you using to melt with?
2. Do you only use the flat portion of the jug - seems the part that has the texture on it doesn't do well..........
3. About what weight did you end up with for the shot in 357mag? (That's what I'm working on.)
I've got 6 made up to try - got to wait till I'm off work to load them up!
I have always loved to have some rat shot loaded up in a revolver while mowing hay/pasture on the tractor. Nothing like busting a cap on a fat rat running across the feild from a moving piece of equipment! :guntootsmiley:

[SPRINGFIELDM141972]

Gearnasher-

I reviewed this older tread after you linked to it from the current PP thread. I was quite impressed with work. I can't believe I missed this one.

I have a question about your method that I didn't see asked. Did you leave the two slits in the side of the shotcup or did you fuse them together after loading the shot? It seems the the slits could open up if the cup was pressed from the end kind of the like the old rubber change carriers the banks used to hand out.

Regards,
Everett

[geargnasher]

Thanks for the interest, Everett, it does dandy for my purposes, anyway! I do leave the slits in the shotcup, just like in shotgun wads, and for the same reason: It improves the patterns.

If you look at the fired wad in the first pic, you can see the shotcups do get pretty beat-up going through the gun and the pellets swage into the plastic very hard after going through the oversized part of the forcing cone and then into the bore, but there's no place for the capsule to go but forward so it seems to simply swage through the gun. I shot some of the .45 Colt capsules through my NEF .45 Colt (only, not 45/410) and the wads looked about the same as the ones shot through the revolvers, so the extra beating going through the cylinder gap didn't seem to make all that much difference.

Gear

[SPRINGFIELDM141972]

Thanks for the reply. The information on this site never fails to amaze me.

Best Regards,
Everett

[Heath2]

Looks good, I'm going to try it for my 500 s&w and 45colt.

[Alan in Vermont]

I've read through the whole thread and I see where this project is going on my bucket list. Had a rat show up at the barn I rent to keep equipment in so that's my goal, minute of rat patterns at 15' or so.

I was all set to charge into it but there was no #9 shot to be had. A trip to my LGS yielded none either but they did have a 10-pack of Speer 44 shotshells,, for $16. GASP! CHOKE! I did not fall down but did get a bit weak in the knees.

My Charter Arms 44 Bulldog will get the duty, partly because the size is easier to have on the belt when moving stuff around and partly because it is my ONLY 44 right now.

I'm going to end up working with the method shown here, just not sure when.

Thanks for the great write-up, Gear.

[geargnasher]

Yer welcome, Alan! You can use #8 shot just as well, maybe better on rats. If you don't have any, buy a box of cheap 12-gauge skeet loads and you'll have well over a pound of it for $4-5. Milk/water jugs are essentially free.

Gear

[flounderman]

If you have gas checks for the caliber you intend to load shot loads for, that is all you need. 1 gascheck upside down over the powder and another one upside down over the shot and crimp. in a 44 you could use 7 1/2s and still get a good pattern.

[geargnasher]

If you have gas checks for the caliber you intend to load shot loads for, that is all you need. 1 gascheck upside down over the powder and another one upside down over the shot and crimp. in a 44 you could use 7 1/2s and still get a good pattern.

There are lots of ways to build shot loads that work, but some work a lot better than others, as I outlined in my original post. What "you need" is up to you.

Gear

[thx997303]

I thought I might chime in with an experience here.

I went out grouse hunting this last season and i took my marlin 1895 guide gun with my shot loads just to see what i could do with em.

Well they fed through the tube perfectly, and netted me three grouse in three shots. I would prefer a shotgun for the purpose, but these in 45-70 are definitely capable of some short range kills. I had originally loaded these up for just this reason, as i often se grouse while hunting deer and elk, and these are pretty quiet too.

[Von Dingo]

Why this thread is not a sticky eludes me, had to search pretty hard for this one...

[Rooster]

Has anyone done 45 ACP from 308/06? I'm thinking about trying that out but the RCBS dies are astronomicaly priced.

[RoyEllis]

Just an added note to an oldie but goody here, you can make shot cups like Gear has shown for BP rifles and get some decent patterns inside of 20yds. I've used them in my .50 to replicate 28ga loads to shoot pot meat (rabbit & squirrel) at deer camp.:drinks:

[Harter66]

I dabbled w/this also. I found a solution in a pile of range brass most likely from a Judge. I cut the 410 case flush at the cylinder face. Used a built up wad ,a plastic wrap (actually Mylar from my Dads magnumitus days) and a folded crimp. W/6 and & 1/2 shot 10yds would be sort of an outer limit. The biggest issue I had was over seating the primer w/o a proper tool. I made a few up w/regular wads also. They worked well enough that a roll crimp tool is in my future very soon.

[geargnasher]

Cut-down .410 hulls worked for me too, but I had to turn down the rims slightly to get them to fit against the cylinder ratchet in my New Vaquero. Some revolvers have larger rim cutouts.

Gear

[429421Cowboy]

Has anyone done 45 ACP from 308/06? I'm thinking about trying that out but the RCBS dies are astronomicaly priced.

Check over in the special projects forum, there is a thread on there right now.

Love this thread, should be a sticky! Gear pointed me to it a year ago and i have to admit, loads like these are fun to explore, plus you get some satisfaction in cheating the store out of $1.50 a shell >:)

[drinks]

A suggestion, a block with several male pattern forms on it, an oven and vacuum pump chamber.
Vacuum forming over male molds is a common practice in model airplane building.
Once you have the basic setup, it is possible to make many and have them uniform in dimensions and form.

[Jack D]

This thread was pointed out to me for ideas in my own experimentation efforts. My interest in a decent shot shell is for my H&R .357 magnum Handi Rifle with the long SAAMI throat. In this rifle, I can chamber cartridges up to 2.25" long, depending on the bullet shape. A shot shell this length would mean a lot more shot than the commercially available shot shell and maybe better patterning, too. There are some good ideas in this thread and food for thought. I can't wait to get started.

[SantaFe66]

This thread was a fun read. "Gear" has really put some work into his solution. When I lived in Alaska I bought a T/C Contender pistol with the .44 Mag/Shot barrel. It has a "choke" that unscrews when you want to shoot .44's and the single shot chamber works with T/C shot cartridges that are quite a bit longer than the Speer models. No leading and the shot comes out grouped nicely with the choke on. Over the years I have accumulated both loaded shot shells in various lead sizes, and some cartridges without the shells. I used this pistol on Ptarmigan (Spruce hens) during the winter and it was very effective even out to 20 - 30 feet. Here's a pic of the pistol and some #9 shot loads. I've never shot a snake with it but, now that I live in New Mexico, I'm sure an opportunity will present itself.

142138

[Blackwater]

The very best shot loads I've ever used involved some 9.3x72mm brass that I believe had the rims thinned to appropriate thickness, and then they were cut off just short of cylinder length. Powder was loaded and a wad of some sort (can't remember what I used right now) and shot placed in the top, and an over shot wad put in and the case crimped to hold it in. Also melted some candle was on the over shot wad to seal it and maybe provide a bit of "lube" for the pellets. Really worked well and didn't take near as much time to load up as to talk about. MUCH heavier shot charge, and #9's really put out a nice pattern.

[russs]

this thread is still relevant. I have a 44mag and just got a 357 mag that I want to make snake shot for. Just read the whole post and now have ideas to start with. thanks a lot Geargnasher!

[Ole Joe Clarke]

I know this is a really old thread...... but. I have loaded .38 Special shot loads for a very long time, using the gas check method. I don't know how many rattlers, moccasins, and copperheads have met their match using them. Most of them with one shot. The cottonmouth shown below was one of three we disposed of many years ago while fishing, in the span of about 10 minutes. It works for me.

http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad123/olejoeclark/Fishing/Fishing022.jpg (http://s928.photobucket.com/user/olejoeclark/media/Fishing/Fishing022.jpg.html)

[russs]

thanks for the picture Ole Joe Clarke

[Shuz]

Shot loads ain't only for revolvers! I have used a Winchester Trapper with .44 magnum shot-load, with #9 shot in a Speer capsule, on a bull moose that is perhaps on the verge of entering my swimming pool AGAIN!
Last year, our swimming season was shortened by a big bull moose who entered the pool and put his hooves right thru the liner!
This year,the first time I saw a bull moose, I whopped him in the butt, and it was 3 weeks before he returned. He hasn't returned at all, since I whopped him in the butt the second time. The neat thing is that the plastic shot capsules and the #9 shot-loads get his attention without doing any serious damage. If I had a moose tag, the damage would be much more serious and I would use a different boolit! By the way, my whole place is surrounded by a 4 foot barbed wire fence that Bullwinkle just steps over!

[Blackwater]

Joe, sounds like ya' wandered into a real nest of 'em!

And Shuz, we don't have much of a problem with meese down here in th' swamps, but ANY animal CAN learn if ya' just provide th' right motivations.

It's been a long time now, but lots of you have .45 LC's. I had a Ruger years ago, and wish I still had it. It was an OM, and was a real honey, EXCEPT for the fact that it had the small throat, large bore problem, which I didn't understand at the time, so I traded it off. Wish I had it back, but I got a small number of brass that had been made from 9.3x72R IIRC. I think the rims had been thinned down to fit, and they were cut off just short enough to fit the full length of the cylinders, almost to the face of the cylinder. They held a darn good sized charge of shot, and worked really great - better than anything I've used before or since. BEing longer than the actual chamber of the cylinders, the taper at the throat seemed to act as a little bit of choke, and center of patterns was denser than anything I've tried before or since, though i haven't experimented all that much with shot loads.

I've also heard of, but never tried, cutting off .410 shotshells the same way, but can't say if they'll provide the same "choke effect" or not, being plastic. Since they can be picked up for free if you know someone who shoots a .410 and doesn't reload the shells, it's always worth a try, though.

Those 9.3x72's were worth getting a box of 20, I think. FWIW?

[geargnasher]

While I still appreciate everyone's "what works for me" posts, I still see that most everyone still misses the point I made in the beginning. What works for ME, is something that leaves my bore clean so I can still count on the next round going on target without cleaning between. I don't get that with the gas-check and fillerup method. In my OP I outlined all the other methods I tried and explained the shortcomings I found after trying each one, and how I developed this method to solve those problems.

BW, some revolvers will chamber a .410 shell and some won't, depends on the diameter of the rim counterbore. I did it and think it's pretty much a waste of time due to loss of shot capacity.

Gear

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Gear , thanks for your work and sharing , Now just find someone to mass produce these units !??[smilie=1:

[Ole Joe Clarke]

Blackwater, we did get into a "nest" of them. I went back a week or 2 weeks later, (can't remember) and there were 2 more of them in the same spot. One of them got away.

[trapper9260]

I know this is a old post and all. but I just found it by another post and was thinking about what Gear OP was and of how it can be done. But Gear made it easy for me to think of how to go about doing it. There is one thing I like to ask is for each of the cart., what would be the starting load of powder to use.I have longshot and others.Unless I miss of how much to start with.Thank you

[flounderman]

I used a set of dies for the 45 shot shell. We cut some wads from a milk carton. The end crimps like a 22 shot shell and they feed thru an auto. I loaded some 357 shot loads, no 8 shot, gas check over powder, up side down, and one over the shot crimped and elmers glue sealing it. I never saw a snake twitch after being hit with it. I believe you might get more pressure from a shot charge than a single bullet, weighing the same. The shot might jam together and expand as it goes down the barrel. No scientifice evidence, just observation.

[atr]

this is a great post ! good ideas and pictures....I think dispatching the local rattlers up here in the North Central Cascades would be more fun with a pistol loaded with shot than with my trusty .410

[Forrest r]

Never made anything other than loaded 11 #5-shot pellets in a speer 35cal blue capsule and loaded them in 357 cases. Used them at the skeet range with a 6" bbl'd 586. Man I sucked!!! Could only break 6 to 8 birds out of 25 on the skeet range. I could run 25's with a 20ga and a 410. Darn 586 played hell with me, I called it 50/50.

50% me and 50% the 1000fps load. Tried pushing the speer capsules harder and they blew out. I shot countless 1000's of 1200fps loads on the skeet and trap fields. Just couln't get the leads right with the 1000fps load of the 357/speer shot capsules.

[dverna]

Never made anything other than loaded 11 #5-shot pellets in a speer 35cal blue capsule and loaded them in 357 cases. Used them at the skeet range with a 6" bbl'd 586. Man I sucked!!! Could only break 6 to 8 birds out of 25 on the skeet range. I could run 25's with a 20ga and a 410. Darn 586 played hell with me, I called it 50/50.

50% me and 50% the 1000fps load. Tried pushing the speer capsules harder and they blew out. I shot countless 1000's of 1200fps loads on the skeet and trap fields. Just couln't get the leads right with the 1000fps load of the 357/speer shot capsules.

You did not miss because the speed difference between 1000 and 1200 fps required a significant change in leads. BTW, not many target shotgun shooters run 1200 fps. That is the speed of a Heavy Target load....the load I use for Trap Handicap.

You missed due to pattern...or shall we say lack of such.

BTW, #5 shot is not permitted on most skeet fields and would be a poor choice even with the payload in a 12 ga.

Don Verna

[dbosman]

Anybody have 24ga, 28ga, or 32ga plastic shot shell wads? What size brass with those fit in?

[Smoke4320]

Yes, but they will only hold about 100 grains of #9 shot, if you decide to try it I would highly recommend #12 shot to keep the pattern density. These are for close-range (inside of 10 feet) anyway, just not as effective as .357. Any snake beyond 10 feet isn't really a threat unless it's right around my house, so extreme range isn't necessary IMO.

Gear

come on now you know any snake over 10' you get the 45-70 out :)

[trapper9260]

Never made anything other than loaded 11 #5-shot pellets in a speer 35cal blue capsule and loaded them in 357 cases. Used them at the skeet range with a 6" bbl'd 586. Man I sucked!!! Could only break 6 to 8 birds out of 25 on the skeet range. I could run 25's with a 20ga and a 410. Darn 586 played hell with me, I called it 50/50.

50% me and 50% the 1000fps load. Tried pushing the speer capsules harder and they blew out. I shot countless 1000's of 1200fps loads on the skeet and trap fields. Just couln't get the leads right with the 1000fps load of the 357/speer shot capsules.I have shot the Speer capsules hard .But did it with the 38spl case and shot in a 357mag, Other wise they would not fit in a 38spl.and shot some birds with them. I use 7 1/2 shot in them.it work about 7 yards.

[No_1]

Why this thread is not a sticky eludes me, had to search pretty hard for this one...

Stuck - excellent thread!

[rockrat]

I have been playing with some loads for my 38 special snubby. I use 357 max brass, trimmed so the end is about .010" inside the cylinder, size in a 357 mag die, run thru a 38 special seater die to set the bit of a should back. I then load with 2.2 gr bullseye, a wad cut from cardboard egg carton, then fill with "ancini de pepe" pasta (maybe 1/16" in dia.) then another card wad on top and make a small crimp using a 7mm br seating die with the bullet nose stem removed.
I need to anneal like GP100man had posted years ago as I get springback on the case neck when I form it, and they are difficult to chamber.
However, they work up close. I use the pasta as I sometimes shoot in the gravel in the flower bed next to the house and don't care for any ricochets. Figure the pasta just disintigrates. Wife says snakes out in the field or 75' or so away from the house are fine, but next to the house, it is verboten for them to be here. They have taken to hibernating under the house, so they get no mercy when they emerge. She stepped on one coming out the front door one day and almost levitated getting out of there. I heard the scream a long ways away.
So far this year, 11 snakes with 12 shots (gave a ball of three an extra shot).

[dot6]

Somehow, I had never seen this thread before. Only revolver shot loads I'd ever made were the old double gas check variety. Now I have another project simmering on one of a dozen back burners. Thanks a lot, GearGnasher.

Seriously, thanks for taking the time and trouble to explain all of this. I'll file it away until this winter when it's too cold to piddle around outside.

[Drm50]

Last week I had some trouble with vermin in a attic. I just about had problem solved but still had
a few I couldn't catch. I decided CCI 22 shot caps would work without doing any damage to
structure or roof at 6'-8'. I never had much use for them to shoot snakes at any range. I don't
shoot non poisonous snakes and if I shot a Copperhead it is a must and I'm not playing with it.
Anyway they worked perfect to my surprise. I had already done the basement with traps and 38
Speer capsules loaded with #71/2 shot.

[Handloader109]

I have been playing with some loads for my 38 special snubby. I use 357 max brass, trimmed so the end is about .010" inside the cylinder, size in a 357 mag die, run thru a 38 special seater die to set the bit of a should back. I then load with 2.2 gr bullseye, a wad cut from cardboard egg carton, then fill with "ancini de pepe" pasta (maybe 1/16" in dia.) then another card wad on top and make a small crimp using a 7mm br seating die with the bullet nose stem removed.
I need to anneal like GP100man had posted years ago as I get springback on the case neck when I form it, and they are difficult to chamber.
However, they work up close. I use the pasta as I sometimes shoot in the gravel in the flower bed next to the house and don't care for any ricochets. Figure the pasta just disintigrates. Wife says snakes out in the field or 75' or so away from the house are fine, but next to the house, it is verboten for them to be here. They have taken to hibernating under the house, so they get no mercy when they emerge. She stepped on one coming out the front door one day and almost levitated getting out of there. I heard the scream a long ways away.
So far this year, 11 snakes with 12 shots (gave a ball of three an extra shot).

Dude! Got to make some of these up! Got the pasta, brass and powder!

[Handloader109]

Ok, So I only had some std 357 mag cases. Primed a dozen, loaded up a starting load from above of 2.3 gr on Bullsey. I laser cut out some hardboard discs from a thick mailing envelope I had around. Decided not to use just corrugated as it would take up space or collapse. Placed one disc on top of powder, pushed down tight. Filled up with ancini de pepe (stole the bag for a bit) but DaVinci brand is extruded cylinders.Oh well, for try let's see.
Pushed another disc on top and I crimped down with a 9mm crimp die. Didn't roll over at all, just pulled it down 10 thousandths for about an eight inch. HMMM. So I dribbles some elmers white glue on top of the disc to seal. Let dry over night. Fired off 4 of them. 22 short or less report. At 3-4ft, went thru 2 layers of newsprint. Tried a couple on an Amazon prime corrugated plastic shipping envelope. Loads went thru one side, but not the opposite. About a 6-8" diameter spread. And would do pretty good. I think I'll run down some spherical pasta, I think I might have some couscous that is round.
Should work better as this stuff broke up easy.

Oh, the glue worked well. No motion, no movement, no residue. I'll mark base of some of the cases and put one or two in my taurus. 5 shots of good stuff, and two of shot.
Thanks

[wildcatter]

Very crude but excellent results, and put's my buddies Judge to shame. 460 S&W Brass makes great metallic shot shells for the 45 Colt.

I am kinda crude prepping brass, need a 44 mag resize die, I neck down the case till it will just fit in the Colt chambers. They are usually neck sized off to one side at this point but slight pressure allows them to be seated in the cylinder deep enough to operate and fire form.

Once fire formed, and I use a healthy dose of 231, same as I shoot with 250 grain slugs in my Blackhawk.You have cases that look as good as the old 12 ga greener shells made of brass.

My load process is dump the powder, I cut cards out of card board with a sharp 45 case, once the powder is dumped I carefully use a flat eraser end on a lead pencil to seat it down flat over the charge, then dump the #8 shot all the way to the top, I then carefully put a revered 44 cal gas check on top and drop a drop or two of wax over the top of the gas check and slightly crimp them. The early shells were sealed with pastbord cards and bees wax.
232362
232363
232364
232365

The Water bottle was full and has holes 360 degrees around it, so full penetration at 25 yards is great. The Turkey target also at 25 yards shows how effective this could be for snakes and the likes. Very handy out of the 5.5" Blackhawk.

[Outpost75]

The Starline 5 in 1 Blank cases work for shot loads too:

https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/single-post/2018/01/13/Loading-44-Game-Getter-Shot-from-Starline-5-in-1-Blank-cases

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/418223/starline-reloading-brass-5-in-1-blank-bulk-packaged
Description of the shotshell procedure from my review:

5 in 1 Revolver and Rifle Shot
Submitted 3 years ago
From West Virginia
Verified Buyer

The Starline 5 in 1 Blank cases work well to assemble handgun shotshells useable in the .44 Special, .44 Magnum, .38-40, .44-40 and .45 Colt revolvers. Powder charges must be kept mild due to the enlarged flash hole. I use 5 grains of Alliant Bullseye or 6 grains of WST or 231 and a Winchester Large Pistol primer. A Buffalo Arms .45 card wad must be inserted over the powder charge, first inserting the card sideways with tweezers, pushing it about halfway into the case, before rotating it to bridge across the interior case wall and then aligning and pressing it down against the powder using a 3/8" dowel. Next a Federal 410SC shot cup is inserted firmly against the card, seated with the dowel and its protruding wad fingers trimmed off with a sharp knife. It is absolutely necessary to use the .45 card under the plastic shot cup because it is not of sufficient diameter to prevent powder from otherwise leaking around it, which will cause bloopers. Load about 1/3 oz. of fine shot not larger than 7-1/2, to maintain adequate pellet count, within 1/8" of the case mouth. Insert a .38 cal. Buffalo Arms card wad over the shot and then crimp the shell using either a .44 Long Shot, .45 ACP Shot or Lee .308 Winchester seating die which has been shortened by 1" and a blank RCBS sizer-lubricator top punch positioned and adjusted in the seating stem collar to hold the top card at the mid point of the die shoulder, while the case mouth is bumped against the shoulder to form a nice, professional looking crimp. Waterproof the shell by painting the top wad with clear urethane or varnish. These produce rabbit and grouse killing patterns patterns at 20 feet with No.8s and burn rattlers to "snakeburgers" at 15 feet. More effective than the Speer factory shot and useable in a variety of guns. I pack 20 of these in each vehicle or aircraft survival kit.

Photos:

5 in 1 Revolver and Rifle Shot 25 foot pattern from Marlin 1894S .44 rifle

5 in 1 Revolver and Rifle Shot 25 foot pattern from 5-1/2" Ruger .44 with No.8

[725]

One of our castboolit brothers proffered the use of .303 Brit brass trimmed to length (of the whole .44 mag cylinder / minus a fraction), fire formed in the revolver cylinder, then loaded with unique, wad cards, shot (I use #7 1/2 shot), over shot card, then sealed with Elmer's glue. Re-sizing starts with a .44 mag FL and then the reduced "bottle neck" is re-sized with a .40 FL die. Works like a champ.

[skeettx]

I use 30-40 Krag brass

[Gunny Bill]

Have you tried some of the different hole punch out there, some make quiet a large plug from many different materials.
You can buy many different sizes from Hobby Shops and even some automotive supply places (used to put holes on gasket materials for carbs etc. (giving my age away).
You can get them in sets or individually.
Mine are from an old set of Tandy Leather punches. I also have a set from an auto place.
Its worth a try and saves a lot of cutting.
They will cut thru most any not metal material.
On a side note, I always used the CCI capsules, but I was working with buckshot mostly.
I used to reload a lot of .38 and .357, but now I just get loaded.

[milltownhunter]

you might try gas checks and reverse them you have to get the right amount of shot to fill the case then crimp them work very well in 38spl to 45/70 I use 444 marlin in my 410 just use 410 data and wad

[Alferd Packer]

Dear Gear
You have made the double gas check load obsolete.
You are an innovative reloader to be sure.
Your patience explaining to everyone and then another double gas checker shows up.
Without your heat formed wad, the shotload has no protection.
Again I want to thank you!

[Alferd Packer]

I hope to copy your method to make shotloads for .32 H&R revolver cartridge.
I'm planning on trying a hardwood dowel to make the forming mandrel and cut off cases for the nose collar .
If the hardwood dowel doesn't prove sturdy enough, I will use a turned down bolt.
Takes me awhile so i will get back to you and let you know.
Thanks for sharing.

[Alferd Packer]

Gear
Post #131 says it all.

[owejia]

Any one making 9mm shot shell loads for 9mm revolvers? Am working on some made from 223 brass necked down to fit the throat of the cylinder, for use in a Charter arms 9mm Luger, no moon clips required. Lengths of 1.100,1.200,1.300,1.400 hopefully will get final trimmed to lengths today, deburred , chamfered inside and out, run through tumbler to get clean and ready to load. Anyone making them for use in a auto pistol especially a Glock? Should get a hefty payload for the revolver with the 1.400 oal. My mail carrier is interested in some for use in a 9mm Glock. Would like to know the oal if any one is making them to use in the 9mm autos. Thanks

[Bwana John]

Any one making 9mm shot shell loads for 9mm revolvers? Am working on some made from 223 brass necked down to fit the throat of the cylinder, for use in a Charter arms 9mm Luger, no moon clips required. Lengths of 1.100,1.200,1.300,1.400 hopefully will get final trimmed to lengths today, deburred , chamfered inside and out, run through tumbler to get clean and ready to load. Anyone making them for use in a auto pistol especially a Glock? Should get a hefty payload for the revolver with the 1.400 oal. My mail carrier is interested in some for use in a 9mm Glock. Would like to know the oal if any one is making them to use in the 9mm autos. Thanks

Overall length for a 45 in a 1911 to be able to cycle semi auto is a function of the ejection port lenght, the fired shotshell case (still full lenght or even a little longer than a bullet loaded round) must be able to be ejected thru the ejection port. Id try trial end error while focusing on ejection.

Let us know if you can get it to work through a 9mm Glock, hopefully semi automatically.

What caliber sizing die do you plan on using to form the case mouth to headspace on using cut down 223 cases? (32acp?)

[joeblack357]

Interesting I use a blank die which will perform a star crimp on a 357 Mag case. A felt wad and shot crimped in place works perfect for me. You can not reload the cartridge as the crimped star will break upon opening.

[Alferd Packer]

Interesting I use a blank die which will perform a star crimp on a 357 Mag case. A felt wad and shot crimped in place works perfect for me. You can not reload the cartridge as the crimped star will break upon opening.

IMHO. way to keep factory making new shells

[Cosmic_Charlie]

The outfits that make regular shotgun wads should produce these.

[farmbif]

has anyone with 3d printer made custom wads? or are the plastics too brittle?

[kombayotch]

has anyone with 3d printer made custom wads? or are the plastics too brittle?

I've been playing with a capsule printed on a resin printer with Inland ABS-Like resin. Not brittle and all, probably more flexible than real ABS. I'm unable to break them with my fingers. It replaces the bullet and has a grove that allows it to be crimped so that it doesn't get pushed in and doesn't come out under recoil. Seems to be working.

317056

317057

317058

Just started playing with it and am still tuning the load. Noticing that the pattern is tightening as I bring up the powder charge, so I'm going to keep working it up. Also, the cases that I'm using are a bit short. With longer cases and one piece of cardboard for the wad, I should easily be able to increase the payload to over 145 gr. of #9 shot. Currently holds 139gr.