Today's results with unsized cases & WC's ala C.E. Harris

[Maven]

All, The weather was picture perfect, thus allowing me to retest the unsized cases and both Cramer (Lee Precision's .38spl./.357mag. WC is a dead ringer for the Cramer.) and RCBS wadcutters in my S & W Mod. 10 and Dan Wesson .357mag. In short, there was good news and bad news. The bad news first: The unsized Cramers shot poorly from the Mod. 10; i.e., too much dispersion without a large, ragged hole @ 25yds. from a sandbag rest using 3.0gr. CLAYS. On the other hand, the RCBS wadcutters seated backwards, also unsized and over 3.0gr. CLAYS, grouped better, but the dispersion was still larger than I'd like.

In order to make the test more meaningful, I tried the unsized Cramers in unsized .357mag. cases in my Dan Wesson (6" shrouded bbl.). The load was the same, namely 3.0gr. CLAYS ( Lee Auto Disk cavity = .43cc). While there was some dispersion of hits on the target, there was also a gaping 1.25" hole through which at least a dozen Cramers passed. That's the good news. The bad news is that the loaded rounds had to be coaxed into the chambers with a plastic hammer and when fired, would not extract easily. That was unacceptable. Thus, I'd suggest avoiding the unsized CB's in unsized cases in the .357mag., but maybe not in the .38spl.

The next test will be with both sized & unsized Cramers @ .359" seated backwards (nose down) in sized and unsized cases for the .38spl. and sized RCBS WC's also @ .359" in sized cases, all using the 3.0gr. CLAYS I mentioned above. Btw, I saved 25 unsized RCBS WC's in unsized cases, which will be fired alongside their sized brethren. Nedless to say, I'll report my results here.

[45 2.1]

Instead of unsized cases, try sizing them in a 38 super or 38 S&W die. It will chamber snugly and still be loose with a 0.360" boolit.

[Dale53]

4.5 2.1'
>>>Instead of unsized cases, try sizing them in a 38 super or 38 S&W die. It will chamber snugly and still be loose with a 0.360" boolit.<<<

I believe that Harris' whole idea was to reduce time and effort. If you are going to size them in anything, you might as well use the proper dies.

I have been sizing my .32 H&R's normally (Lee Carbide full length sizing dies) but sizing bullets at .314" (only size the bullets about .0005" but lubes them) and using a Lee Factory Crimp die for final crimping and case sizing. I had problems chambering that combination before using the Lee die but now, I have NO problems. They shoot quite well (under an 1" at 25 yards). I didn't save any time or effort but this allows me to use the largest bullet that I can chamber without difficulties. The accuracy speaks for itself.

I could have avoided the whole problem with a .313" bullet sizing die but I didn't have one. Now, the expedient works so well that I will probably not change anything in the future.

Dale53
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[Bad Flynch]

Maven,

What crimping die were you using? This process will not work with standard roll-crimp nor taper crimp dies; it must be the Lee Factory Carbide Crimp die or the Redding Profile Crimp die.

If you are using the Lee CFC die and your ammo is too large, then you need another crimping die. I had Lee make me one that gave an absolute dead-max SAAMI cartridge dimension. Well, as near as is possible anyway, given that different lots of brass spring back differently from sizing. Lee will custom make one to your requirements for about $30-$35, and they do not take long, either.

When I seat my bullets, I do so by hand allowing that the HBWC might stand about 0.005"-0.010" proud of the case mouth for a little bit better bite on the bullet. I do that by inserting the bullet by hand and pushing the case against the bottom of the reloading bench at a 45 degree angle. With the rounded edges on the HBWCs, it allows them to stand just a tad proud of the case mouth. Then I crimp, of course.

By the way, I have had my best luck with Remington 148 grain HBWCs and 2.55 grains of BE with a soft primer in my Pythons. However, the M15 Smith and my K-38 both like the Hornady 148 gr HBWCs over 2.7 grains of PB--again, with a soft primer like the Remington or Federal small pistol. All of those in .38 Special cases, even though one of my Pythons is a .357 and the other a .38 Special Only.

When I tested this method back in the late 1980s on a Ransom Rest, Bullseye shot well from 2.5 grains up to 2.7 grains, but the groups opened up above 2.7 grains, predictably. That was with the HBWCs. I do not remember nor have my data any more for the DEWCs that we shot.

[Maven]

BF, I roll crimped the .357mags. in the RCBS seating die; the .38spls. in a Lee seating die, both as a separate operation. I also don't wish to invest in more equipment for what is essentially a feasibility study. Moreover, I've usually had the most success in both cals. (3 revolvers) using the both the RCBS wadcutter seated backwards and sized to .358" & .359" and the Remington swaged HB wadcutter seated ~3/32" out from the case (both cals.) and roll crimped in a separate step. The powders and charges were 2.7gr. B'eye (Lee Auto Disk, .34cc cav.) or 3.0gr. CLAYS (Lee Auto Disk, .43cc cav.) in the .38spl. and .357mags., respectively.

[fecmech]

Over the past couple years I've read a number of opinions that one must have thin wadcutter brass for use when loading such target loads and I have done so for many years. About a month ago I decided to test a worst case senario as far as loading wadcutter ammo. I have a couple thousand WCC74 military .38 cases which are noticeably thicker than WW wadcutter brass. You can see the lube grooves thru the case! I think (and this is just my opinion) Wichester used .357 mag brass shortened to .38 spl length for the military.
At any rate I loaded and fired seven 6 shot groups at 50 yds with the H&G #50 wadcutter cast of ACWW in WWC military cases and taper crimped to the crimp groove. Load was 3.1 Bullseye, nothing was weighed, bullets were just visually inspected as cast and sized (.358) on a CH Auto Champ progressive with a carbide size die. Groups were shot out of a dot sighted K-38 off bags. The average for the 7 groups was 2.34"@ 50 yds. That still gives you a little wiggle room in a 3 1/4" ten ring on a bullseye target( believe me I can wiggle!).
I still load most of my wadcutter in wadcutter brass but with my bullets,gun and loading practices the use of the thinner brass only decreases the group size average about 1/4", so for me it's not a big deal. Nick