30/30 Limbo Load

[357maximum]

Cabin Fever Strikes Mid-Michigan Man :)


I have been toying with severely reduced charges in the 30/30. I have been all the way down to 2.0 grains of bullseye. The boolit I am using is a 160Grain plainbased loverin/Lee TL looking thing with a round/flat nose with a hint of SWC from one of the earliest lee group buys. Bullets made out of almost pure lead and lubed with LLA and mica dusted. I had best accuraccy at 4 grains but the 2 grains are doing what I wanted and the vertical dispersion is nowhere near as bad as I thought it would be going into this. I have settled on a 2.5gr charge in neck sized brass. I have used both LR and LP primers...oddly enough the CCI LR's are more accurate than the LP primers. Groups are basically one ragged hole but the hole is a bit oblong vertically (barely)....no biggie this was meant to be a short range vermin/play load.

No fillers have been used.

No small defenseless animals have been hurt in this adventure........yet.

I have actually been shooting these in my barn at 25yards into an old thick plate of almost kinda sorta pure lead that used to reside in an old commercial oven as a counterweight for the door. Makes a pretty good backstop and no lead is lost.

I have not chronied these loads but they are similar to a very very high powered air rifle.

Rifle is an older pre1973 H&R 158 topper with the milled/scalloped receiver. It wears a 1X weaver.

So my question is How LOW HAVE YOU BEEN?

I am normally a hotrodder so this is a severe departure from the norm for me......I have slowly worked my way down the charge scale and I see no issues thus far. It is big fun and allows me to play while staying out of the wind. If you believe some of what you read one should not go this low...but it is working for me.

If you shoot more than 4 times in the same spot lead starts to fly out of the divet in chunks...so heads up...........as Norm says "safety glasses are the first step in shop safety;) .

Loaded round + boolits+ powder charge + neck sized case

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/3030limbo.jpg

From left to right: glob of lead from 3 shot group, divet from 3shot group with blob extracted, single boolit strike.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/3030limbo001.jpg

*if you decide to try this.....please be diligent and watch the powder charges closely.....I keep a mini maglight on the bench......and I use it to peer into every case. I charge each case and then set it into a block to avoid double charges.

These loads still have enough oomph to make living things into not living things...be careful

[dubber123]

I think 4 grs. BE with a 100 gr. boolit was as low as I went in my Savage 219 in 30-30. I didn't chrono them, but they sounded exactly like the same boolit exiting my 32-20. Shot well, but not great at 50 yds. About 1". I didn't experiment with them much.

[barrabruce]

Iv'e only gone down to 5 grains of unique with polyfill and ccu lr primers, 170fp lee
don't know the speed.
Still working on it.
1.25" at 100yrds. 3 out of 5 in an 1" at 150 and the other two in group 3" low.

Like to try bullseye or n110 one of these days. But still got enough unique for 4-500 rnds.
In no rush.
Aint shot nothing but I think I don't wanna stand in front of it.

Barra

[lavenatti]

I've been using the same 2.5 grains of bullseye for loads for almost every rifle I own ( with any cast bullet I have on hand) . Accuracy is usually inside of 2 inches at 25 yards with the same minor vertical stringing you mentioned.

In my 30-30 this load with a 165 grain cast bullet goes through groundhogs. Penetration is good, expansion is nil - bullets are too hard.

One of my favorite loads though, pretty quiet and no recoil.

[enfield]

4 grains 700x and a 114gr lyman RF and a 150 ish grain flat nose ( it was 6 banger group buy mold I borrowed from a friend ) I used them in a cowboy shoot we had at our range ( most guys didn't have appropriate cowboy guns so i loaded up some that wouldn't hurt the steel plates, they worked great , didn't dent the clangers and 50y accuracy was good. no chrony but I'de guess they were goin pretty slow.:veryconfu

[Larry Gibson]

I shoot thousands of Lee's TL314-90-SWC sized at .311 (Hornady's 90 gr swaged lead .32 SWC bullets work as well) over 2.7 gr of Bullseye in the 30-30 for 815 fps and excellent accuracy to 200 yards.

You are on the right track using dead soft lead with such loads. You probably could go lower but watch out ofr a stuck bullet in the obre. You will know when a bullet is stuck in the bore because the case will auto eject on opening, wear those glasses!. Accuracy because of stability might be a problem much lower than you are using . I've gone as low as 1.3 gr of Bullseye under a 205 gr bullet in the 8x57 at 235 fps with out sticking a bullet in the barrel. At 1.2 gr 1 out of 3 bullets would stick about 2/3 of the way down the barrel. They were easily shoved out with a cleaning rod. Be careful.

Larry Gibson

[Southern Man]

Last weekend I shot some H&G 170 FP-GC , 16 to 1 , through a Marlin 336 30-30.I used 4.5 grn of 700x , WLR primer. I was useing a ghost ring sight and getting 3" @100 yds and 1300 fps. Southern Man

[jimwill48]

160 gr Lee Round Nose
2.0 gr of Trail Boss

Penetration is good, Accuracy great at 25 yards.....

[Archer]

I'm thinking of trying 4 to 5 gr's of Bullseye, or about the same
of Unique behind a 110gr. J bullet, since I have a bunch of them,
and still have to get a .308 mold.
This would be just a plinking load, out of a Win. 94
Does this sound like a likely load, or not.

[harrya]

Just loved this thread. I've been playing with the very same thing and NOW I know I can go much lower then I'm loading now. I like the soft POP of the 30-06 downloaded like this. Working with some greendot (that's what I had in the powder drop) and down to 5 gr w/180 LRN cast w/WW & water dropped. Seems to be more accurate then I am.
harrya
PS. Thanks for all the great info and thoughts on this.

[kbstenberg]

A new guy question.
Using a strait lead bullet, wont that lead the barrel badly? Or because of the very low velocities that your using there isn't a prob.

[MT Gianni]

KB a good lube fixes that problem. Mike's pic shows a liquid alox lube.

[barrabruce]

Hmmm
Iv'e noticed no one seems to using filler.
Do you up end the barrell before shooting???

Iv'e seem to get better conisistancy with a filler than without.
The velocity may be higher thou.
NOt sure.

I don't seat out to the lands normally but will try next time the range is open when ever that may be. May be even better.

I like this thread too.

What sort of rule of thumb are you using for your peeksqueek loads??
Just interest in others take on this aspect of reloading.

1. I only use a scoop and don't weigh my charge.
2. size prime cases etc but only load one case at a time. powder/ filler / bullet seat.
3. Iv'e only loaded with the projectile off the lands or throat.
5. I don't have any Jacketed stuff but wouldn't use any for the sticky one in the barrell job.
6. I usually lube with alox and clean every 20-40 rounds. Seems no problems.
7. I test to my at least 1/2 - 3/4 max range to see how it shoots then out to the max (max for me is 300mtre, but then again its going like 950 fps)

I may try some lower velocity stuff to see how quiet it gets.

Cheers
Barra

[mroliver77]

I dont know how low exactly I have gone, but low enough to stick the boolit. It does work better to open the flash hole but cases must be marked well or destroyed after using. Bulls Eye is great for this as it lights so easy. The 2.5 gr seems to be where I settle for accuracy /power in most CF cart. Yesterday I was playing with the
finn 39 and using round ball .313, 311284(210gr), 311413 and an LBT 180gr over 2.5 "Titewad" and was having a "blast" well a small blast...err more of a pop with the RB. I tried with and without dacron and settled on without.
For "serious" wimp loads I fill the case with lead and then drill a powder chamber back to the flash hole. I get better burning and better accuracy out of these. I have taken loads below 1gr with these with satisfactory results.
As has been mentioned, pure or soft lead is the best for this type of shooting.Just the faintest trace of lube will do. Look at a .22 long rifle round if you doubt me. If you looking for quiet, use the longest barrel possible and the heaviest boolit.
here is a good read on subsonics from another point of view
http://guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane1.html
Jay

[Molly]

On a related note, I once decided to see how lightly I could load Bullseye in a .357 Martini. I started with the usual cast lightweights, and dropped the charge until one stuck. Then I'd seat it deeper in the case, and / or go to a lighter bullet. To make a long story shorter, I ended up with 1/4 grain of Bullseye under a 000 buckshot that was pressed down to the very bottom of the case. The very first shot with this combination produced the most astonishing report. It didn't go 'bang' or 'pow' or even 'pop'. It went 'Thoiinggg'. Sounded like a spring in a vise that someone whacked with a ruler.

I quickly made up some more. They were all alike. It took me a while to figure out what was going on, but I THINK that the push from the primer and the trace of powder was enough to get the buckshot moving fast enough to get out of the muzzle, but it didn't produce enough gas to fill the bore of the rifle. So the buckshot started drawing a vacuum after the gas pressure ran out, and the funny report happened because after the buckshot was gone, air was pulled into the bore and bounced like a spring. The only thing I’m pretty sure of is that I had generated the only ammunition I'd ever heard of that (ahem!) really sucked.

[btroj]

I have gone with 3gr trail boss in 32-20 with a 120. Only about 750 fps. Like Molly said, only a twang. I asumed it was from the mainspring in my Marlin.
I have a feeling trail boss would work well for reduced, really really, reduced loads in 30-30 too. I like the bulkiness of it.

Brad

[Larry Gibson]

barrabruce

I use dedicated cases that are well fire formed. The flash holes are drilled out with a #28 drill. This prevents the shoulder of rimless cases getting set back creating headspace problems and also gets the flash to the powder quickly for evene ignition. I do not bother tipping the barrel one way or the other to "position" the powder with such loads. I just load them into the magazine, chamber and shoot them.

I use a powder thrower to throw the lighter charges. I have an old Pacific thrower that takes bushings. I custom make the bushings for the specific powder cahrge. I also do not put a case in a loading block unless it has powder in it; in other words if a case is in the loading block I've put powder in it. I've no problems with double/tripple charges that way. I do not use a wad or filler with such loads as with Bullseye they are not necessary for consistent ignition of these small "cat's sneeze" loads.

I also cast of soft, almost pure lead, and TL the "as cast" bullets lightly with LLA and do not size them. I also clean the barrel every 50 or so rounds. With some cases it is not even necessary to size the necks. I just wipe of the neck/shoulder with a paper towel, deprime, reprime, charge with powder and thumb seat the bullet. When/if the neck won't hold the bullet I then resize and flair the case mouth. I also give the case mouths a good taper ream with the Lyman tool.

Larry Gibson

[Doc Highwall]

About 30 years ago I was shooting 1-1/2 to 2 grains max of BE in a 22-250 case with 22 cal pellets and at 25 feet I shot at a soda can that was filled with water in my friends basement that had a range. Well we were surprised when the pellet hit the can it exploded like a M-80 was inside it and it was flattened out and water was dripping off the ceiling and the walls, we still laugh about it. Then about a year or two later I read about somebody else doing it with a 222 or 223 and they max out at 1-1/2 grains of BE and they said it was choreographed about 3000 fps., no wonder the can exploded like it did.

[Molly]

About 30 years ago I was shooting 1-1/2 to 2 grains max of BE in a 22-250 case with 22 cal pellets and at 25 feet I shot at a soda can that was filled with water in my friends basement that had a range. Well we were surprised when the pellet hit the can it exploded like a M-80 was inside it and it was flattened out and water was dripping off the ceiling and the walls, we still laugh about it. Then about a year or two later I read about somebody else doing it with a 222 or 223 and they max out at 1-1/2 grains of BE and they said it was choreographed about 3000 fps., no wonder the can exploded like it did.

Been there! I loaded a .22 pellet in a .222 Rem, and used a brand new Samsonite suitcase to back up my paper target. Put the dang thing through BOTH sides of the suitcase. Expensive lesson!

[excess650]

I haven't tried this with the 30-30, but did the 32-20 and 38-55. The 32-20 load ended up with 2gr Solo 1000 under a Lyman 311008 sized and lubed conventionally, and 15bhn. It shot sub 1" at 50 yards. The 38-55 got the 37583 bullet over 4gr Solo 1000 and shot similar groups. Bullets were seated out so as to be seated when closing the action.

I will revisit this with the 30-30 at some point in time, but with the Lee 311-100-2R or the 311008.

[Rocky Raab]

As reported in another thread, I used to shoot a single buckshot over 1.5 Bullseye in my .308 Win. as a backyard beastie load. There's no reason why it wouldn't shoot as well from a .30-30.

In truth, ANY uncoated flake shotgun powder will work at these charge levels. I went as slow as Unique, and that's as slow as I recommend trying. But any powder faster than that will work perfectly between about 1.5 and 3.5 grains.

[Molly]

>Please visit my shooting articles at www.reloadingroom.com

I did, and all I got was a blank green screen. ????

[Doc Highwall]

Molly, after shooting the can with the pellet I shot a 2x4 through the 1.5" dim an the pellet made a 22 cal entrance hole and blew a cone shape out out back and when I tried it with the 3.5" dim it did not make it through but knocked the 6"-8" long piece of 2x4 off what it was resting on.

[Rocky Raab]

Molly, you must be using Internet Exploder, the ONLY browser that messes up my pages.

Your best option is to use Firefox or Chrome, both of which work perfectly. Or, you might try scrolling right to see if IE is just forcing the pages flush right instead of flush left. It does that sometimes and other times it scrambles everything.

Thanks for trying, though!

[Molly]

Molly, you must be using Internet Exploder, the ONLY browser that messes up my pages.

Your best option is to use Firefox or Chrome, both of which work perfectly. Or, you might try scrolling right to see if IE is just forcing the pages flush right instead of flush left. It does that sometimes and other times it scrambles everything.

Thanks for trying, though!

Yep. Using IE, and when I went back to check, I found that everything had been forced RIGHT, and piled up in one heck of a mess. Sorry about that.

Molly

[Rocky Raab]

No sorrier than I am. I designed that whole website using Microsoft software - and IE is the only browser that scrambles it. Typical, huh?

It's way, WAY too big a job to re-write the whole thing, unfortunately. My best suggestion is to download Firefox - which you'll like better and is much safer than IE anyway.

[45-70 Chevroner]

Molly!
That sound was caused by the ringing of your chamber. Just kidding. Nice read. The magumites don't know what they are missing when it comes to this type of expermenting. The only fun out of life they get is laughing at us. The lightest load I have ever used was 3.0 gr. of bullseye behind a cast 130 gr. Lyman I think the # is 311410. Nice load kind of like a 22 LR. I never put it on paper but I could hit pop cans off hand out to about 40 yards.

[Good Cheer]

Tried reduced loads in 8mm but never 7. Guess I oughta.

[Molly]

Molly!
...The magumites don't know what they are missing when it comes to this type of expermenting. The only fun out of life they get is laughing at us.

He who laughs last, laughs best! I have come to enjoy light loads more than the full power stuff. I can shoot them cheaper than 22's, and in more places, and without upsetting the neighbors and gendarms.

Of course, they CAN have disadvantages at times. I've just gotten a rifle built on the .32 S&W Long, and was wanting some ultralight loads that still had a bit of whomp. I loaded up a 3111291 (170g RN) over a pinch of 4227. The idea was to let the 4227 get it going, and let the heavy slug carry on by inertia. Good idea, just not quite good enough: Stuck in the 26" barrel about 10 inches from the muzzle. Gonna try some more in a few minutes when I'm done with this.

OOOPS! I wuz too slow. The wife just announced that she has "2 or 3 things (she) wants (me) to do before I go." But I WILL get out today: They're forecasting freezing rain tomorrow, turning into accumulating snow during the night and all next day. I've shot in a snowstorm so bad I had to wait for a lull before I could see the target, but I'm a little bit older and smarter now. (BG)

[RU shooter]

Not a 30-30 but my backyard load for my 30-06 is 2.8 gr of BE and a 185gr boolit with out the GC soda can accurate at 40- 50 yds. quiet and powerful enough to dispatch a pest raiding the chicken coop in the middle of the night without disturbing the neighbors

[45-70 Chevroner]

Molly: I've never tried 4227 as a light load medium. I will give it a try in my 14" TC 30-30. How much is a pinch? Starting load? I'll probably use the same 130 gr. Lyman boolit. I also have a Lyman 110 gr. RN, 160 gr. Lyman lovrin, 155 gr. Lee, 180 gr. RCBS, 210 gr.Lyman.

[Molly]

Molly: I've never tried 4227 as a light load medium. I will give it a try in my 14" TC 30-30. How much is a pinch? Starting load? I'll probably use the same 130 gr. Lyman boolit. I also have a Lyman 110 gr. RN, 160 gr. Lyman lovrin, 155 gr. Lee, 180 gr. RCBS, 210 gr.Lyman.

Well, MY 'pinch' was about 2.0g 4227, but you must remember 1) This was in a rifle chambered for the 32 long, not a 30-30. And 2) the bullet stuck in the bore! I'll likewise guarantee that in a 30-30, that charge will generate a LOT LOWER pressure, and your bullet won't get nearly as far up the bore as mine did.

Frankly, I don't think I would select 4227 for a squib load in a 30-30: You might make a good small to medium game load with it, but not a squib. Any load that generates enough pressure to burn 4227cleanly would have a LOT more 'BANG' than I think you may want in a squib.

I would recommend starting with powders that fall between PB and SR4756 in burning rates. Faster powders will serve, but make more sensitive loads. I've used up to 5.0g of Bullseye and Red Dot in 30-30 and 30-06 with lightweight bullets. They burnt cleanly, and gave a good trajectory for close range targets, but muzzle blast was more than I wanted. Slower powders - especially ball or stick powders - will need too much pressure to burn cleanly for a squib load. Medium burning flake powders seem best suited for loads like this.

I'd suggest you start with 2.5 to 3.0 grains under a pinch of cotton ball to keep the powder down near the flash-hole, and a bullet in the range of 70 to 120 grains. Don't overdo the cotton! Enough to make a small ball the diameter of the case is all you need - and you may not need any at all. Play with the powder charge until you have decent accuracy, and you can use the same sight picture for most anything below 40 or 50 yards. Once you have a nice squib load that you like, then you can try heavier bullets, different primers, seating depths, and the like.

Personally, I like a squib load so quiet that I can shoot it in the basement while the wife is having a gab session with the neighbor ladies upstairs. Yes, it CAN be done, if you're willing to give up "long" shots like 40 or 50 yards. But hey, that's the charm of reloading: You can work up special loads for almost ANY situation. Make up loads with buckshot for the kids to pop at soda cans at 20 or 30 feet, and other loads to educate groundhogs in the garden, and still other loads to invite squirrels to dinner, and yet another load to send similar invitations to the deer in the neighborhood. Experiment with a short length of 5/16 wooden dowel or PVC rod for basement or close up shooting. After a while, working up another load gets addictive ....

[barrabruce]

Well I did try the bigger primer hole trick.
With my gun with 180's with or without filler and 3.4 gnrs bulleye seems to be louder than the std flash hole.
To my ears any way.

I have updated my techique and seat out long and let the chambering seat the nose into the lands.

I'm getting 10 shots groups that are just a tad over 1" at 100 yrds with unsized lee 170 fp.
6-8 " at 325 yrds.
With sized slightly and indexed I get mostly 1" groups but they blow out about the same when I get right out there.
I think it could be me thou.

I can't get real good groups unless I seat to the lands and a 150 is about as short as my 30-30 will allow me to do that.

I will try some buck shot one day thou.

I have used maybe 1 1/2- 2 grns bullseye and they are pretty slow.
They are reasonably quiet and penetrate about 8-12 inches of sand at point blank range with a 170.
( used them to do some fire-lapping ). but didn't group them
When dug up I could have loaded them again apart from the sand abrasion.

I have cast a new batch of boolits so I will try and see how low I can actually go with a 150 maybe.

I thought the longer heavier bullets would be quieter for some reason than the small stuff.
Or as usual I have it all ar$e about face again???
Cheers
Bruce.
I get a buzz out of light load shooting!!!!

[excess650]

I just received a new 311299, so cleaned it and turned the pot on. While I was at it, I decided to find my old Lee 311-100-2R. I gave it a good cleaning and cast some of those as well. My alloy is my normal stuff that was already in the pot, so fairly hard and suitable for at least 2K fps from the 30-06, 7.5x55, etc.

I ran the little 100gr RNs through the .311" sizer and loaded up a couple in 7.5x55 cases. These have the same capacity to the bottom of the neck as 30-06, so I was skeptical about tiny powder charges. In the past my powders of choice were the clean burning variety like Solo 100 and Clays. I put 2.5gr Solo 1000 in a case, seated the bullet to engage the rifling, and shot into a 6" thick block of white pine at 15'. The bullet did exit the muzzle (20.5" barrel) and made a louder report than expected. It didn't exit the block, so I tried 2gr. The report was a little quieter, and the bullet was still burried more than 2" in the block. I seem to recall having stuck 311008s in my 32-20 at less than 1.8gr, so didn't attempt to go lower.

I'll have to try some of these in my 30-30s. What surprises me is that some of you have shot some of these mouse fart loads to 100 yards and beyond with good accuracy. I thought my previous 50 yard accuracy tests were pushing the limit, but I guess not.

[Molly]

>I'll have to try some of these in my 30-30s. What surprises me is that some of you have shot some of these mouse fart loads to 100 yards and beyond with good accuracy. I thought my previous 50 yard accuracy tests were pushing the limit, but I guess not.

Don't underestimate these squib 'mouse fart loads'! I once had a squib in a .357 Carbine that featured a Speer plastic bullet and about half a grain of Bullseye. It was almost noiseless, and I wondered how dangerous it might be. So I dug into the groceries and got the biggest Idaho potato I could find - and it was sizable! I popped it with the plastic slug, wondering if it would just bounce off, or if it would actually stick in the potato. Well, it did NOT stick in the potato! It went THROUGH the potato, and split it all to BLEEP!

And I once had a .222 Rem load that featured an air rifle pellet, a drilled out flashhole and a mag primer. I thought it would make some good offhand practice in the upstairs hallway, so I put a NEW Samsonite suitcase up to keep from dinging up the baseboard. First shot went through both sides ....

Ben Franklin once said that “Experience keeps a dear (expensive) school, but fools will learn in no other.” The quiet report and miniscule powder charges (if any) of squib loads can be VERY misleading. These things are NOT toys! Don't EVER make the mistake of wondering how loud Bill would yell if you pop him in the tail with one, unless you are inordinately fond of the short end of unpleasant police officers and hopeless lawsuits.

[krag35]

I have not playd with boolits in mouse fart loads, but I have done some with .311 RB in a 30-30. Drilled out the flash hole ( don't remember what size, but pretty much as big as I could go and keep the feet of the anvil on brass) belled the neck and seated a .311 LLA coated RB over 2.5 gr of 4756 (fastest powder I have ) Pretty much one hole 5 shot group at 50 feet. would go through 1 3/4" pine board, but stop on the surface of the next. Was going to use them for a Graouse load when i was hunting, but the point of impact was far to different to make it useable.

[excess650]

I loaded some of the 311-100-2R in 30-30 cases with several light charges of Solo 1000 and will have to try them at the range. Do I test them through the 24" 336CB or 20" 99 carbine???

I have a pair of Redding measures, and the one with the "pistol metering chamber" throws miniscule charges very well. What is also interesting is that the micrometer reading is almost exactly 10X the charge weight in grains of Solo 1000. This is a most welcome coincidence.

While looking for some Lee C309-120s I found some 311008s that hadn't been sized or lubed, so ran them through the .311" die. This is a great bullet in my 32-20 1894CL and S&W Model 16 32mag, and I'm thinking of trying it in the K31. Its .200" meplat should make it more effective on critters than the Lee 2R RN.

While I've never shot RBs from cartridges, I do recall reading articles mentioning their use from 30-30s. Apparently they were also used for gallery loads in Krags(?) and I have an arsenal mold for casting them.

[excess650]

I decided to load some MF loads for the shortened K31. I started with 2.0gr Solo 1000 and 311-100-2R. These printed 1.8" low and 1.4" left of my point of aim at 25 yards and were very quiet. 4/5 shots were in a ragged hole, and this with only an elbow rest and receiver sight. 2.5gr was 1.1" low and 1.2" left with 4/5 shots that could be covered with a dime. 3.0gr raise the POI to POA, but was 1.18" left and the size of a quarter. 3.0gr with the Lyman 311008 had similar results.

BTW, my sights were set for a 2Kfps 200gr load that prints 2" high at 100 yards. The 3gr loads could easily be used for backyard varminting or headshooting rabbits.

I had rounds loaded for the 30-30, and 8mm, but it was too cold outside for me to keep shooting.

I'll have to do a bit more casting and experimenting with other powders and charges.

[excess650]

I shot the 30-30 rounds from my 20" barreled 99 carbine. I had loaded 1.8, 2.2, and 2.6gr of Solo 1000 under the Lee 311-100-2R in WW cases. My target was at58 yards and the 1.8gr and 2.2 gr loads would have been doing well to hit a quart oil container. At 2.6gr it tightened up to about 2". More testing is needed, but the 2.6gr load shot marginally higher than 17gr AA5744 under the 175gr Saeco #315.

This carbine has the flattop buttstock with curved steel buttplate, so has never been comfortable to shoot with heavy loads. I really like it, so am working to find accurate but comfortable to shoot loads for it. BABore has both a conventional grooved and TL(uncataloged) similar to the 357maximum's bullet, so I'm thinking of ordering one if I can't get a bite in WTB. The idea of TLing and without GCs is starting to appeal to me for casual shooting, and particularly since some of the posters have mentioned shooting well beyond 50 yards.