Best .44 boolit for black bear?

[fatelk]

A friend of mine is a wildlife guy, and in the course of his duties has to occasionally dispatch a bear. He wants to load up some good bear medicine, and I told him I'd help with some bullets.

I have molds for 250gr SWC, and a new Lee 310gr mold that I haven't used much yet. For Oregon coast black bear, what's a good slug? Should the boolit be hard or softer for expansion?

I'm not a hunter, and he doesn't really know either. Any ideas?

[Bucks Owin]

A friend of mine is a wildlife guy, and in the course of his duties has to occasionally dispatch a bear. He wants to load up some good bear medicine, and I told him I'd help with some bullets.

I have molds for 250gr SWC, and a new Lee 310gr mold that I haven't used much yet. For Oregon coast black bear, what's a good slug? Should the boolit be hard or softer for expansion?

I'm not a hunter, and he doesn't really know either. Any ideas? .44 Spl or mag? I'll assume mag, I'd pick 250 for either but the 310 would be good in the mag if accurate. I never had much luck in that regard with the 310 Lee. RCBS 250K was very accurate in my .44 mags....BTW, Expansion isn't especially needed, a long leaky hole is...JMO

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Fatelk, you can't go wrong with the 250 "keith" style semi wadcutter...no problems with black bears...I use 20gr 2400 when I am hunting these critters with a RBH pistol . I like to mix my alloy 50/50...wheel weights and pure lead....they will expand without shattering on bones...usually...nothing is completely fool proof...if you know where the bears vitals are and place the boolit accordingly...Dead Bear...good luck

[randyrat]

I'm betting the 310 will penetrate better than the 250 gr bullet. If it was me i would go HEAVY. Bears die easy and fast with 2 bleeding holes (one in and one out).
Maybe it's like asking which cannon ball would you like to be killed by.

[MrMajestic]

There are a lot of good weights in between those two. I like the LBT design in 270 or 300 grain. What ever makes the prerequisite two holes, one in and one out. For bear I would be more concerned with penetration over expansion especially when you are starting out at .430, oh and your life could depend on it!

[Dale53]

My experience with handguns on big game has been limited to white tail deer. They grow pretty big in Ohio (corn and bean fed). A 250 gr Keith will shoot through a large deer end for end, regardless of what's hit and put a 3/4" permanent wound cavity all the way. I have been in on 35-50 "autopsies" on black bear. The average black bear is not all that large. However, there are some monster blacks that get really large. The Keith is adequate for that job.

However, the Lee C-430-310 RF was designed by Frank Siefer and I for just that purpose (bear hunting). It's super wide meplat and heavy weight kills very well. Several members of our local club, who have shot the Lee bullet extensively, claim that it is the single most accurate bullet they have fired from their .44 Magnums. I have had excellent results with it through two S&W's and one Ruger Red Hawk. At a 100 yards I am able to keep most bullets on a playing card. Some have reported even better results. I limit my use of 300 gr bullets in my Smiths. Extensive use may increase the wear on a Smith. I typically choose the Red Hawk for most of my 300 gr bullets.

Neither is a bad choice for the purpose. If you use the Lee 310, load it as long as the particular revolver will allow you. This results in greater case capacity and will allow you to get the best performance with the least amount of pressure.

FWIW
Dale53

[Blammer]

Here are some to look at for design wise.
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Cast%20boolits/44list.jpg

IF I were to dispatch a bear from 50 yds and closer, I'd use this one.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Cast%20boolits/DSCN7432.jpg

OR I'd pick a big heavy with a really big meplat. The Lee 310 is on my top of the heap list. I also have a 280gr really big meplat one not shown, I'd probably pick that one.

My recommendations probably are horrible because I don't hunt bear, but this is what I'd lean towards.

as far as hardness? I'd go with standard WW's air cooled.

[George Tucker]

250 Keith bullet for me, or one of the LBT bullets.

[outdoorfan]

Personally, I'd go with the Lee 310 and drill a HP in it. Make the HP about 2/3 the length of the nose and around .125-.15 in diameter. Alloy would be 50/50ww/soft air-cooled loaded to between 1100-1200 fps.

[fatelk]

Lots of great info, thank you!

I forgot to mention, the gun is a really nice, older model 29. I'm thinking we'll work up some loads with both boolits, and see which shoots better. He's definitely leaning towards the heavier boolit. It sounds ideal for him if it shoots well.

I've always been a model 29 fan (I have three), but I do understand about them not liking the pressure levels that some others can take. Another friend has a Dan Wesson .44 Mag, and I had to be real careful to never shoots the loads that he had worked up for his gun, in my gun. They were fine for his DW, but I once shot a couple in my Smith, and the cylinder kind of jumped backwards or something (wouldn't advance right), and the brass was sticky in the chambers.

I keep my max loads well under book max now, and they work fine.

[trap shooter]

owm moulds are great i like the 310 gr with imr 4227 david moss mould i hunt bear wild boar with ruger super redhawk

[Lloyd Smale]

either will work fine for a black bear.

[1Shirt]

Either would be fine, but if I had my druthers would go with heavy lee.
1Shirt!::coffee:

[twotrees]

I cast some of these up out of Lyman #2 alloy. CCI Mag prime,r Rem cases 21 gr of "OLD" 2400.

Complete straight penetration on an old 8 inch dia. Telephone pole (A cutoff from our back stops) Distance 50 yards, Gun Ruger Super SS Blackhawk 7" barrel.

IF I was to bear hunt again, that would be on my hip. I can't think of where I would need more penetration.

Expansion None. Except for the smear on one side of the nose, and rifling marks, I could have loaded it again !!!

Good Shooting,

[jhrosier]

I fired fifty of the Lee 310s over a full load of H110 last weekend, from my 4-5/8" SBH.
Sprained my pinky finger with the pinky-under-grip hold. Took most of the hide off the side of my thumb and got some pretty good brusies on top of my hand from the hammer. It is a real handfull of romp and stomp, even with shooting gloves and a two handed hold.
The good news is that I fired several 1-1/2" five shot groups at twenty five yards.
I wouldn't hesitate to take on a bear with these loads.

I don't think much of it for plinking though.:veryconfu

BTW, This load was not bad to shoot in the 7-1/2" or 10-1/2" SBH. The shorter barrel makes the recoil feel a lot worse. I was curious to see if the load would shoot better in the short barrel than in the longer one, and it did.

Jack

[fredj338]

Unless you are talking huge bears, the 250grLSWC would be enough bullet. Nothing wrong w/ the 310grLFP, but the 250gr will be a bit easier on that nice old M29. I save the 310gr for my RBHH.

[Larry Gibson]

A 250 gr "Keith" SWC cast of WW + lead at 50/50 or 1/20 tin/lead alloy over Keith's favorite load will do very nicely on Oregon BBs out of that M29. I've been there and done that (I am an Oregonian after all:-) )

Larry Gibson

[44man]

One thing missed. What revolver will the boolit be used in?
The larger boolit is not kind to S&W's and the recoil beats them too much and can give a failure when a shot is really needed. Stay at 250 to 265 gr for a S&W.
The Lee 310 is a HAMMER from a SBH, make them hard, expansion will limit penetration. Water dropped WW's work fine.

[fredj338]

One thing missed. What revolver will the boolit be used in?
The larger boolit is not kind to S&W's and the recoil beats them too much and can give a failure when a shot is really needed. Stay at 250 to 265 gr for a S&W.
The Lee 310 is a HAMMER from a SBH, make them hard, expansion will limit penetration. Water dropped WW's work fine.
Exactly the point I made. The 300gr+ bullets are tough on lighter framed M29. If I do shot them, it's at about 1000fps.

[CJR]

Black bears can get big. Here in PA we have the largest black bears in the world. About two years ago, I helped haul out a 500+lber. My buddy put it down with three 308 jacketed HP bullets. When we opened him up, there were no exit holes, only entrance holes. He had a layer of fat, white as snow that was about three inches thick. Another buddy took a 545lb black bear and it required two magazines (8 rounds) of 30/06 to get the job done.

In my last hunting camp we had a 638 lb sow that was regularly drug-darted and weighed by Game Wardens. Likewise, an 800 lber was shot up the road from our camp. Supposedly, the Game Wardens have been drug darting a 900lber., but I can't verify that. While scouting last summer, we kicked out a 500lber, feeding on blueberries, and it had a beautiful coat and wide head. In hunting season he was taken.

The Keith 250 gr. 429421 is an awesome penetrator in a 44Mag. There have been tests done in gelatin blocks where penetration reached 48-52 inches. Likewise, shooting this bullet into water tanks showed it out shot 30/06s and 375 H&H Mags. Years ago, I did some penetration tests by shooting this bullet into a frozen sand bank. After digging in about three feet, I gave up and never did recover one bullet. Though I cast LBT LFN 320 gr. bullets, I always use the 250gr. 429421 in bear country. We've had a couple of hunting camp members get chased by some black bears and it's always nice to have a 44Mag along.

As mentioned sometime before, my standard load is 25 gr. IMR 4227 behind theWW/WQ Keith (a Lyman accuracy load years ago)w/LBT blue lube, sized to 0.4305 inch. It works for me! Once you get a chance to feel some of the muscle/bone structure and ligaments like steel you get a whole new respect for black bears. When they can bite back, there's no such thing as overkill. In my view, penetration is the key and you need to be breaking bones/breaking them down and putting big bleed holes through black bears and forget about shocking power (wide metplat bullets). We had a car hit a black bear in the Poconos and the car was totaled, but the bear just ambled off. So much for shocking power. Likewise, forget about the saying, "black bears are timid". If I'm not mistaken, black bears have killed more humans than any other type bear. Likewise, you're not going to outrun them. They've been clocked at 40 mph.

Best regards,

CJR

[fredj338]

About two years ago, I helped haul out a 500+lber. My buddy put it down with three 308 jacketed HP bullets. When we opened him up, there were no exit holes, only entrance holes. He had a layer of fat, white as snow that was about three inches thick. Another buddy took a 545lb black bear and it required two magazines (8 rounds) of 30/06 to get the job done.
Your buddy's need to rethink their bullet choices. A HPBT is NOT a hunting bullet, especially for thick skinned game. SOmething in the 180grNP range would guarantee penetration form most angles.

[Dale53]

On one of my bear hunting trips in Canada, I loaned my buddy my .257 Roberts that I had handloaded a 115 gr Nosler partition bullet. The bear was circling the bait and had his head turned back when my friend shot it. He broke it's neck and BOTH shoulders with total penetration. The bullet was NOT recovered.

Bullet design is right after bullet placement in importance. Elmer Keith discusses bullet penetration tests in "imitation bear muscle" and stated that the handgun (.44 and .45 Keith cast bullets) penetrated MUCH further than the 30'06 and .270 Winchester with expanding bullets. My personal experience on game (deer and bear) was the same. Sounds ridiculous at first blush but it IS true. I have never recovered a Keith bullet from a deer when fired from the .44 magnum at 1200-1300 fps (chronographed velocities). I have been in on 35-50 autopsies on bear and a smaller but significant numbers of deer with expanding rifle bullets and expanding bullets are often recovered.

So, the moral of this is if you need penetration, then you need strong bullet construction in an expanding jacketed bullet or in a cast bullet on very large animals, then the solid is the way to go.

On deer and average size black bear you might (notice that I say MIGHT) enjoy better "stopping power" with a hollow point bullet with cast bullets at reasonable velocity.

Just a thought or two...

Dale53

[Marlin Hunter]

I do not have personal experience with hunting black bear, but I have seen a few black bears in the mountains here in N-California. They are not that big. In fact I think they are really small. Weight wise, they are about equal to a large (N-California) doe. Maybe around 250 pounds. I would feel comfortable with a 44 mag pistol, with any 240gr or heavier flat nose SWC type boolit, for self defense against black bear. My main concern would be boolit accuracy with quick multiple shots. I would test rapid fire accuracy with a dual action revolver before I worried about boolit weight or shape.




from: http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/bear/biology.html

Adult females weigh 100-200 pounds whereas adult males are larger, at 150-350 pounds, though individuals over 600 pounds have been taken by hunters in California.

[outdoorfan]

Jim has shot a shot a black bear or two. :wink:

Sixth post down.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/381449

[Slow Elk 45/70]

OK , I'll go out on the limb here, I'll bet the Wildlife Officer is carrying a double action pistol...most likely a Smith, so that leaves the 310gr. out IMHO...Fatelk says he has a 250 swc and the 310.....so why would he need to buy another mold ??? The 250 swc cast 50/50 ww/pb will shoot through the black bear , end to end if you want....I do believe a lot of people make assumptions on these questions with 0 experience doing the deed....IMHO
No disrespect intended to anyone.

[fatelk]

Thanks all, for the input and info.

Yes, he carries a nice, older S&W model 29. He was really interested in the heavy boolit, but neither he nor I knew that boolits that heavy are really not ideal for a model 29.

It looks like we'll be working up a good load with these 250gr slugs, then.

Added: I feel stupid. The mold is actually a Lee six-cavity .429 255 gr. SWC, but I'd never bothered to actually weigh the bullets, just work up a load in my gun. I just weighed one and it's actually 265 grains without lube. It seems to me that that should be a pretty good compromise.:)

[Blammer]

sounds like a winner to me!

if you want any of those FWC's PM me I may have a few I could send. :)

[CJR]

fatelk,

Supposedly, M29 are not to be shot with max loads on a regular basis. Apparently, it loosens them up a bit. Likewise, M29 had a problem with max loads, i.e. during the recoil process, the cylinder would unlatch and rotate back to a fired cartridge. Then when you pulled the trigger again, the hammer hit a fired round. Not good! I believe S&W corrected this with a stiffer latch spring. You'll know it your friend's M29 has this problem once you begin your load development. A quick trip back to S&W will cure the problem.

Best regards,

CJR

[fatelk]

Likewise, M29 had a problem with max loads, i.e. during the recoil process, the cylinder would unlatch and rotate back to a fired cartridge. Then when you pulled the trigger again, the hammer hit a fired round.
I wondered! My 629 does this when fired in single action with max loads, and it's annoying.

I love my 29's (I have three of them; 3" 29, 6 1/2" 29, and a 8 3/8" 629). I don't shoot very many max loads in them anyhow, it's just not fun. The worst recoil I've ever felt, though, was when I shot a S&W model 329 that a friend of mine had for a while. Two shots and I was done. My hand hurt for several days afterward!

[CJR]

Fatelk,

The secret to shooting max. 44 Mag loads is grips. Factory grips don't cut it. You need to try everything out there and if they don't work, either make a set yourself or have them made. You need as much surface area as feels comfortable, with a wide slightly rounded back to absorb the recoil, and a grip that gives direct alignment/pointing to the target/threat, and a wide ledge behind the trigger guard to rest on your finger. The Bill Jordon and Ed McGivern books show what's important in good grip design for heavy recoil and how the hand should fit the grip. Your hand needs to fit the grip like a glove to distribute the recoil over as large a surface of your hand as possible. The acid test for grips is to close your eyes, draw an unloaded gun and bring it to eye-level, and then open your eyes. With proper grips, your eyes should be lined-up very closely with the sights. The gun should not be pointing to one-side or the other or up or down, but dead on. If you work on the grips properly, the Mag will feel like a 38 with automatic pointing capability built-in.

If you ever get a chance, look at some Jordon or McGivern fast shooting videos and you'll see what good grips can do in proper hands.

Best regards,

CJR

[45-70 Chevroner]

As CJR said black bears are very fast. A black bear can out run a quarter horse for the first 100yards. I go along with the majority here a 250 gr. Keith style at around 1100 to 1200 FPS is good medicine for black bear.

[spqrzilla]

Someone once pulled a huge black bear out of the hills above Fillmore in southern California. It had fed itself in the avocado orchards and in fact still had green stains on its muzzle when it was taken.