Gripping a S & W

[Greg]

I been having a problem with my M13...it always seems to shoot far left, about 5" at 25 yards.

At first I thought that maybe this one’s wrong in some way, especially when it shoots to the left for my shooting buddy also. And last week it shot to the left for another experienced shooter also.

Then I shot a couple cylinders full with my off (left) hand and the impact was to the right... inducive of too much finger through the trigger guard. In my case using the first joint instead of the pad of the finger.

I then remembered that my adjustable sight S & W revolvers thru the years have had the rear sight cranked hard to the right.

So now my question...

If I were to have a set of Fishpaw grips made for me would they definitely fix this problem? Would, or could a set of Fishpaw grips limit the over reach of my trigger finger? Would a Tyler T grip adapter help in the interim, while I did my year’s wait?

[Bass Ackward]

Greg,

Grip is highly personal.

You can comfortably grip your gun as you would to shoot. Without looking advance your finger keeping it straight along side the trigger. Rotate your hand palm up so that you can see it from the off side. Look at where your finger would make perfect contact. Now, visualize the distance you need to add to the back strap of the grip and or the palm swell to increase the grip distance and make the fit perfect.

This is similar to holding a long gun up in the air with the butt in crook of your arm to guage proper stock length.

Then play with some stuffing materials like cotton using electrical tape to wrap around the grip to hold it in place. Play with this until you get this distance correct to where your finger falls at the proper point. Play with the palm swell until it feels like you want it to. Then shoot the gun. Maybe you can answer all these questions to your satisfaction.

It may not take as much as you think and you can always add and subtract. You can leave this for quite awhile revisiting every couple of days to ensure you have it right. Most solvents will remove the sticky tape residue once you are satisfied.

So much depends on how you prefer to shoot. I prefer to make grips that fit my hand as opposed to grips that alter the way I want to hold the gun. This test will show you want you want to know.

[redneckdan]

I had the same problem with my model 19 when shooting bullseye. I shifted the grip over in my hand about a 1/2" toward my finger tips. Looks goofy as heck, doesn't feel right and my thumb gets bit by the cylinder release, but I can keep 'em in the x-ring where they belong.:-D

[slughammer]

You don't say what kind of grips you have tried. Were you shooting double action? I use a Pachmayer Presentation grip LARGE, it adds material to the back of the grip frame and fills the hand.

If shooting double action, learning the release stroke is just as important as the pull stroke. Both strokes should be the same speed; straight back, then straight forward. Repeat in dry fire until it affects your social life. Best book I own about the revolver game is Ed McGivern "Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting"; mostly dry reading (Ed was not a writer by trade), he did however do some amazing shooting feats and he tried to explain everything in detail.

No matter how you are shooting, double or single action; a straight follow through is essential.

[Bucks Owin]

As much as possible, try to "isolate" your trigger finger so it's not part of your grip. Trigger finger should be able to press straight back independently. (This is hard to explain). Try practicing this idea by making a fist as if holding a gun and then trying to "pull" a trigger. Feel the muscles on the back of your hand try to work? You want to minimize that as much as possible. Trigger finger works by itself....

(If this makes any sense!)

Dennis

[44man]

Bucks????? There are no muscles in the back of the hand! Only tendons, the muscles that make them work are in the forearm. These muscles share the load for all fingers and holding a gun in a death grip will strain them so the trigger finger has less control.
The main reason for shooting sideways is from putting the whole finger in the trigger guard. When the finger is cocked over that way, it can't be pulled straight back and will only move sideways and back.
Point your finger straight out, bend it at the middle joint and see how nice you can move only the end of your finger straight back without moving the part from the middle joint to the knuckle.
Now turn your finger until it is pointing to the left like it would be when jammed all the way into the guard. Now your whole finger will move and it is very hard to just make the end of your finger move by itself.
My friend has this trouble because he has short, fat, stubby fingers and the only way he can reach a trigger is to reach sideways. He always shoots left.

[StarMetal]

44man is right. I've said that before and few fellow forum members didn't like it. You have to pull that trigger straight back. It doesn't matter how you grip the gun if your whole finger is wrapped around the trigger. Alot of friends asked what my shooting secret was. I said it wasn't any secret, I said for me it's all about trigger control.

Joe

[Bucks Owin]

OK, "tendons" not "muscles"......Told ya it was hard to explain! [smilie=1: 44man, you're explanation was far more understandable than mine! Thanks!

I got thinking about this again this morning and figured the most important element is probably "follow through" or less delicately, flinching. I don't care who says differently, EVERYBODY flinches at some time or another and not just from recoil. Could be fatigue, conditions, stress, muzzleblast or what have you. Best way to combat the malady is to first of all, admit to the possibility! Then practice "calling your shot" which can be done with dry fire. Keep your eyes open and "see" where the shot went. If you let go all holds and blink, jerk the trigger, cringe at the noise etc you'll never be a handgun shot IMO. You've got to follow through when the sear slips and keep that sight picture while the hammer falls and the boolit goes it's merry way. When you are calling the shot you have no time to flinch....

Maybe this should be practiced before worrying about the "grip". Hold as 44man explained and see if you are calling your shot or not.

Trigger control is essential but so is keeping that sight picture by calling the shot.

FWIW,

Dennis

BTW, when you find you can't call the shot, take a break! Too many guys figure total tonnage of powder burned will make them improve. Wrong! It's "quality" and not "quantity"!

[Greg]

It’s been a hectic week, and I appreciate all the help given...

One morning I remembered that some where in my plunder was a Tyler’s grip adapter thingee

I finally found it and will try it Monday morning at the range, I’ll take some tape and an extra stack of patches also. A sorta kinda palm swell just might help also.

[Char-Gar]

Hummm... Lot of information, so let me through my two cents worth in. It won't be anything others have not said, but probably said in a different way.

I learned long ago, that the trigger finger should not contact the pistol any place, but the trigger. If the trigger contacts, the frame, there is the strong chance the will be pressure put on the frame when the trigger breaks, causing the shot to go off.

Fixed sight handguns are seldom dead on for everybody. It is not just the way a person holds the pistol, but there are many factors. These handguns are designed for service and not for target use. Some amount of Kentucky windage and and/or evevation may just be the way things must be. Custom grips may not change the situation.

[44man]

Charger, this is really true with a S&W. Any change in grip pressure with them makes them shoot to a different POI. No two people hold it the same. They are just grip sensitive. I learned this trying to shoot a Smith at IHMSA shoots. I shot many, many 1/2" groups at 50 meters with them but I could walk these groups as much as 10" by just changing my grip pressure a few ounces or hand position a few thousandths. I learned you never put the gun down between shots. Of course, after hitting the first 5 targets dead center, the gun had to be put down so the targets can be reset. In every case, the next 5 would be missed due to how it was picked up and held. They never won an IHMSA shoot!

[9.3X62AL]

The grip dynamics are a BIG factor, and figure highly in my occasional spastic results shooting D/A revolvers in single action mode. I shoot a lot more consistently using double action that single action, and group size isn't a lot bigger when firing in D/A mode.

[felix]

Shooting bullseye pistol is equivelent to shooting 1000 yard BR. The former is extremely physical, and the latter extremely mental. ... felix

[Greg]

The verdict is in...

This particular Smith & Wesson model 13 shoots left, anywhere from 4-5½" at 25 yards depending on the load and shooter. Shot standing, sitting with elbows inside of knees, Weaver stance double action, isosceles stance double and single action...uh, it shoots to the left.

Three different shooters; myself, a mediocre revolver shot, my shooting partner Jeff, he shot PPC for quite a few years, and another friend whose is a firearms instructor for the state.

Four loads; Remington Targetmaster 148 grain wadcutters, Federal 125 grain JHP, Skeeter’s 38-44 loads: lyman’s 358156 with Unique at 1.535 oal, and the lyman 358156 with 2400 at 1.535 oal; both in Federal 38 +P cases with a Winchester Small Pistol primer.

The Tyler grip adapter thingie looks kind of cheesie (sorta 1970's leisure suit like) but it maybe helped my grip a little. I could take it or leave it...it will go back in the drawer of plunder.

Today, while finishing the testing, I took extra care to assure that I had a consistent grip, aligned straight with the bones of my forearm. Trigger finger in center of pad, smooth straight back pull. I was shooting Skeeter’s load of 2400 and a Lyman 358156 seated out to 1.535 in 38 Special brass. Seated on the ground with my back rested again a post, both elbows inside of my knees, groups stayed around 2" ctc size, 2" high but 5" left.

Anybody know a Pistol Smith in the midwest who can set this barrel back a thread, recut a 11º barrel chamfer?

I knew it wasn’t all me

[44man]

It could very well be that the barrel is not straight in the frame. I have see many Dan Wessons with this problem. Look over the top of the gun and you wll see it if this is the problem. I would also see if the barrel is bored in the center.
I once had a Ruger Mark I that shot into the ground in front of me. I could see no visible defects nor could I measure any. Ruger replaced it but never said what was wrong.