C.E. Harris' article in "The Fouling Shot" #181

[Maven]

C.E. Harris' article on reloading the .38spl., "Tales from the Back Creek Diary: More
.38 Load Tests," may pique your interest. In short, he tested a variety of commercial cast & swaged wadcutters along with some he brewed himself. What's more, he loaded the homemade ones without sizing them, lubed only with Liquid Alox and inserted into unsized cases. You'll quickly see that there are 2 reloading steps eliminated here: Sizing & lubing WC's and resizing fired cases. All WC's were seated to the crimping groove and crimped in place, which gave better results than flush seating. Harris also upped the traditional 2.7gr. B'eye charge to 3.0 - 3.2gr.

As I have a newly acquired Cramer WC mold, whose droppings I tried once in my .38spl. (S & W Mod. 10), I thought I'd give Harris' method a try. I should add that my initial test of the Cramer WC was with sized bullets and cases and it wasn't impressive. On the other hand, the results I obtained with unsized WC's, lubed with L. Alox, roll crimped and only 2.7gr. B'eye were more satisfying, but by no means perfect. Past experience with the RCBS 148gr. WC (large, flat "button" nose), which I seat nose first into both .38spl. and .357mag. cases, suggested I do that with the Cramers as well: they were a bit more accurate than those seated normally. I've since reloaded both the unsized RCBS (seated backwards) and Cramers (seated normally) and roll crimped them, but over 3.0gr. CLAYS (original formulation) because it burns cleaner than B'eye and will let you know how they perform after my next range outing.

If you try Harris' technique, have a caliper & an inertial bullet puller handy (Just a light tap will do.) because you may find it tricky to seat your WC's to the crimp groove. I crimp in a separate step, irrespective of bullet type or whether it's been sized or not. Let me know whether "doing less" produces more accuracy.

[StarMetal]

Paul,

Next try, with your Cramer bullets, sorting them by weight and see what difference that makes. Being a test you don't to cull a large amount and let us know.

Joe

[Bad Flynch]

>What's more, he loaded the homemade ones without sizing them, lubed only with Liquid Alox and inserted into unsized cases. You'll quickly see that there are 2 reloading steps eliminated here: Sizing & lubing WC's and resizing fired cases. All WC's were seated to the crimping groove and crimped in place, which gave better results than flush seating.<

Please add that the final crimp was done with the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die. What that means is that the case is sized to maximum SAAMI dimensions as it is pulled out of the crimping die: sized, but not in a conventional manner.

The increase in the Bullseye charge may have been necessitated by the fairly recent reduction in the Nitroglycerine content of BE by Alliant. My old lots of BE, by Hercules, shoot at 2.7 with this method, but the newer lots seem not to. At any rate, testing is in order here.

The Redding Profile Crimp Die is as effective for this method as is the Lee CFCD. I have used the Redding for years and it might produce a little more rounded crimp for use in one of the semi-autos that shoot .38 Special--assumine one could find one to shoot these days.

[StarMetal]

I know that the newer lots of Unique and 2400 I've gotten from Alliant are HOTTER then the older ones. Haven't tried any new Bullseyes lately.

Joe

[fecmech]

I don't know what you consider "newer" Bullseye but my machine rest testing back in the mid 70's with my K-38 showed 3.1 of bullseye to be the most accurate charge for that pistol @50 yds with the H&G #50 wadcutter. At the time 2.7 BE groups were more than an inch bigger IIRC. Nick

[StarMetal]

By newer I mean since Alliant reformulated to what they said were cleaner burning powders.

My most accurate load out of my four inch Model 19 using 38 spcl cases was the Hornady HBWC over 2.7 grs of Bullseye back in the late 70's.

Joe

[Four Fingers of Death]

I always try any boolit unsized, tumble lubed first to see if it works. It generally does and saves a whole mess of work. I never thought about not sizing the cases as well. I will have to give it a try.

I have always loaded 2.7-2.8 Gns Bullseye and it has been reintroduced after being off the market here for many years.

I think this that load was intended for the hollow base wadcutters and other guys on this site have recommended slightly warmer charges with solid base boolits.

Mick.

[Antietamgw]

Just yesterday I shot some loads with the Lee 358 158 RF and new Bullseye. The first difference noted was volume or bulk. I generally use a Pacific and a Bonanza powder measure with the fixed rotors. The old Bullseye averaged 2.75 gr. and 3.05 gr. average for 10 drops with the 2.7 and 3.0 gr. rotors. The new Bullseye weighed heavier at 2.9 and 3.2 gr with the same rotors. I ended up using an adjustable measure to drop 2.7 and 3.0. These loads, though not chronographed, loads produced more recoil in my S&W M/60 3" and M/19 4". I also noted that the POI was a tad lower at 15 yds. Grouping was vertical at 1/4" X 2 1/4" at 15 yds but that's not a real good test as it has been a month since I'd shot the handguns and had an eyeglass change to progressive bifocals in between as well. 2.9 gr. in my 4X scoped Savage M/23 in .32-20 with some 30 year old Lyman 3118 of ACWW shot some very nice 5/8" groups at 50 yds. I was real happy with that as it's better on average than the same load of old Bullseye and is the best I can recall with that rifle and bullet with any load. I hope the accuracy is repeatable and not a fluke that I end up chasing to try and repeat :) :) . I cast these boolits with a friend who introduced me to casting and I'm down to my last 100 or so. I must have started with a couple thousand cast from that 2 cavity mold. I miss my old friend and that mold... Anyone have a spare 3118 or 311008 to sell or swap?

[Wayne Smith]

"New Bullseye" and "cleaner burning"? I must not have any yet!

[Larry Gibson]

By newer I mean since Alliant reformulated to what they said were cleaner burning powders.

My most accurate load out of my four inch Model 19 using 38 spcl cases was the Hornady HBWC over 2.7 grs of Bullseye back in the late 70's.

Joe

Back in my early police days (early '70s) I was into PPC and used a couple K38s with 6" barrels and a couple custom heavy barreled match M15s. I did a considerable amount of testing then with a Ransom Rest and found I was reinventing the wheel with all my loads. I had been told by "old timers" that 2.7 gr BE was THE load with HB lead WCs and 3.1 gr BE was the load for double end or solid base WCs. And so it was, so it is and so it shall be. Even with the "new cleaner burning" Alliant BE I find 2.7 gr to be the load with Speer or Hornady HBWCs and 3.1 gr BE for Speer, Hornady and cast solid based WCs. I find 4 gr BE with 358477 to be a very good load in .38 Specials while 4.5 gr BE and 358477 are very good load in the .357 case. I like them as I cast them out of range lead and size at .359 which is what they drop out of the mould at. The 358477 is as accurate as the WCs in my 5" M15 and 6" Ruger Security Six.

Larry Gibson

[Bucks Owin]

"New Bullseye" and "cleaner burning"? I must not have any yet!

Don't know about the Bullseye since I don't buy it...(I use PB mostly or sometimes 700X) but the latest jars of Unique I've bought say "NEW CLEANER BURNING" right on the front label....

FWIW,

Dennis

[Four Fingers of Death]

Notice they didn't say clean burning, I have some of the new stuff and it is pretty grotty compared to AS30 and AS50 (Clays, International).

Mick.

[fecmech]

Maven--Did Harris mention what group sizes he was getting with this method??? Thanks Nick

[Maven]

fecmech, There's a table of his results on p. 8 (TFS #181), but I'll summarize some of his results. All will be the mean/average group size from a 24" BSA Martini single-shot rifle @25yd.:

Win. Factory Load = 0.87"

SAECO #348 DEBB WC, 3.5gr. BE = 0.76" - 0.84", seated out

SAECO #348 " " " " = 1.19" - 2.54" seated flush

Rem. 148gr. HBWC with 2.4gr. - 3.5gr. BE = 0.79" - 0.83", seated flush

Although the above results were for a custom-barreled rifle, Harris obtained similar results from a 6" bbl'ed. Colt revolver (Officer's Model). In a way Harris confirmed what E.H. Harrison wrote about long ago in the NRA's "Cast Bullets." I.e., it is hard to beat the accuracy of factory loaded WC's, but some handloaded WC's can certainly come close. (Harrison also found that one of the H & G .38spl. wadcutters was superior to others.)

[Maven]

All, the rains finally ended today allowing me a chance to complete the unsized WC's in unsized cases experiment a la C.E. Harris. The results, in brief, were mixed. I.e., my Dan Wesson .357mag. shot the Cramer WC's very well, regardless of whether the cases and CB's were sized or not. However, the unsized WC's in unsized cases had to be hammered into the chambers and out again after firing: Not a good thing! This revolver also likes the RCBS wadcutter, but sized to .359" and seated backwards over 3gr. CLAYS.

I also tested both the Cramer & RCBS WC's in the S & W Mod. 10 (4" heavy bbl., fixed sights) with the same 3gr. CLAYS. Here the results were telling: Both WC's were sized to .359" and seated backwards in resized cases(because when seated normally, accuracy just isn't there), but the RCBS' did significantly better, meaning there was much less scatter. (I'll retest these two again in the near future.)

Conclusions: Harris' premise of not sizing CB's and brass may work for you (It does save 1 reloading step.), but my results indicate less isn't always more. I.e., I got the best accuracy in two revolvers* with sized wadcutters in sized cases, one seated normally (Cramer) the other (RCBS) backwards. The unsized stuff just wasn't worth the decreased effort on my part.


*From past experience I know my Ruger BH (4 5/8" bbl.) also likes the RCBS WC seated backwards and is as accurate as the DW with a variety of CB's.

[Slowpoke]

All, the rains finally ended today allowing me a chance to complete the unsized WC's in unsized cases experiment a la C.E. Harris. The results, in brief, were mixed. I.e., my Dan Wesson .357mag. shot the Cramer WC's very well, regardless of whether the cases and CB's were sized or not. However, the unsized WC's in unsized cases had to be hammered into the chambers and out again after firing: Not a good thing! This revolver also likes the RCBS wadcutter, but sized to .359" and seated backwards over 3gr. CLAYS.

I also tested both the Cramer & RCBS WC's in the S & W Mod. 10 (4" heavy bbl., fixed sights) with the same 3gr. CLAYS. Here the results were telling: Both WC's were sized to .359" and seated backwards in resized cases(because when seated normally, accuracy just isn't there), but the RCBS' did significantly better, meaning there was much less scatter. (I'll retest these two again in the near future.)

Conclusions: Harris' premise of not sizing CB's and brass may work for you (It does save 1 reloading step.), but my results indicate less isn't always more. I.e., I got the best accuracy in two revolvers* with sized wadcutters in sized cases, one seated normally (Cramer) the other (RCBS) backwards. The unsized stuff just wasn't worth the decreased effort on my part.


*From past experience I know my Ruger BH (4 5/8" bbl.) also likes the RCBS WC seated backwards and is as accurate as the DW with a variety of CB's.



Hey buddy

I believe you are missing the boat (train) on the Harris article.

He uses the Lee factory crimp die and it sizes the case and the bullet at the same time.

It leaves you with a round that is with in SAAMI specs as far as diameter is concerned.

Good luck

[Maven]

Slowpoke, I know Harris used the Lee FC die as well as a custom bbl'd rifle in his tests. As I didn't want to spend for either, I used both Lee (.38spl.) and RCBS (.357mag.) seating dies because I never had a problem with either. My results didn't justify using unsized WC's in unsized cases, tempting as that was, at all. In short, I guess I'll just have to live with the extra steps and 1 1/4" - 1 1/2" groups out of the two revolvers I mentioned, 3 if you count the Ruger BH and the RCBS WC's seated backwards.