Tumble lubing trouble, or something else.

[fatelk]

I'm still having issues with tumble lubing some .45 boolits. This is the .452 TC-TL mold I bought new a few months ago and have been having trouble with.

I even lapped the mold so the diameter is plenty good for the barrel. I've tried hard lead and soft lead, finally settling on a mix of clip-on and stick-on ww metal.

So I've got boolits of the right size, made of lead the right hardness for the load (about 750fps at most). I'm still getting a little bit of leading. It's right in front of the chamber, and for some reason more at the top than the bottom?? It seems to be in "lumps" more than streaks or smears. About the only way I can get them out is to carefully scrape them loose with the tip of an aluminum rod.

As to lube: this is with two coats of alox/jpw tumble lube. When I put some old-fashioned lube on the boolits, leading goes away. I don't have a proper sizer die for my lube-sizer, so I just lubed some boolits by hand to try them out.

Does tumble lubing just not work with some boolits, or am I still missing something? Where can I find a .453" sizer for my Lyman 450? Maybe I'll try pan lubing them. The barrel slugs at .4525.

I've read a couple other complaints about this particular boolit leading. I wish I'd have gone with the 200gr WC instead. These cast heavy and I have to seat them deeper than I like. They do seem to shoot OK, though: most shots in about 2.5" at 25yds, and I'm not the best shot around by any stretch.

I know a lot of folks seem to get away fine with one light coat of tumble lube, but this is just not working at all for me. Any ideas?

[bohokii]

heck i'm there now i figure a little leading is the trade off for home cast

all i can say is i'm glad i only have 5 inches of bore to clean

its funny i always find myself picking out the leading a little ahead of the hood in the top middle groove

[sagacious]

You say the diam of the tl bullets as-cast is plenty good for the barrel, but you also ask for a .453" sizer.

Just curious, what diam are you sizing/loading at now?

[Bill*]

"It's right in front of the chamber, and for some reason more at the top than the bottom??"
Any possibility there's a rough spot in the bore?

[kbstenberg]

Not trying to TELL YOU what to do. NEVER settle for something if better results are available.
There are lots of people looking for all kind of molds. Put a message up on swapping for what you got an what you want.
Sorry Kevin

[hornady]

I may be way off on your problem. But here goes. You said you are setting the Bullets deeper than you like. The deeper the bullet the more pressure you create . And if not checking with a Chrony the load may be a lot hotter than listed for the load. Also If I am loading Light pistol loads I pick the stick on WW out. They are pretty soft. They are soft enough I shoot them in my Muzzle loader. But then it could just be your gun and mold are not right for each other

[Baron von Trollwhack]

You know what it is. You said when you use 50/50 leading goes away ; it's the alox/jpw.

What? you got Johnson stock to support?

BvT

[Recluse]

Three things to consider:

1. Lube is a tool.

2. Not all tools are appropriate for all jobs.

3. There are a lot of ways to apply lube to boolits.

Always use the tool that works best rather than using the tool that is easiest to use. After all, the only thing that matters is the end result.

Lathesmith or Buckshot can make you a .453 sizing die for your lubesizer.

:coffee:

[runfiverun]

bvt hit it.
try borrowing another type of boolit from someone and try them.
if all is good,you then know what to do.
but since they don't lead with the other lube i'd explore that first.

[Allay]

I have had the same problem with a 9mm bullet and bc of lessons learned I have no problems casting now.
I use the exact same mould in a Colt Gold Cup not a trace of lead.
First you need to measure to get repeatable results.
The reason you can cast slow bullets with soft lead is bc it is hard enough, but if you want to cast faster bullets you need harder lead.
So you need a lead hardness tester, Lee sells one and it works fine.
Next look a your reloading tables for pressure required divid it by 1440 and it will give the BNH. I water drop so for 9mm example I need harder than 13.4 BNH which after 24 hours will be above 20 BNH and above 22 after a week and at 6 months 27.
So read your reload tables.
Next you need to cronagraph your loads or just like not messuring your lead hardness you'll be guessing.
Also WW are not standard hardness up here in Ontario Canada I have found harder and softer.
Lastly you will find Lee's Tumble Lube requires harder lead.
You will find grease grooves filled with lube (not a film) act as a seal allowing you to use soft lead.
I shoot IPDA and load to a power factor for both 9mm and 45acp with zero leading.
You want to shoot a heaveir bullet, lighter bullets have to be much harder.
Type of powder makes little diffrence if any.
I shoot the following
45acp 228 and 230 grain at about 720 to 750 fs @ -5 C
9mm 124 (pain in the aXX), now use 358 150 grain. ~833 f/s @ -5 C

I load for winter conditions, the loads are faster in summer.

You'll find 452 is fine for most 45, the bullet bumps up to the needed size if not too soft or hard. Using lube rings are superior to any other method.

45acp really doesn't need to be slugged in a modern gun due to standardization, size it to 452, if the right hardness is used the bullet will seal. The grease grooves if filled with standard lube your lead will seal over a large range of harness.

For me since all I can get is very soft lead and I have to add a much harder alloy, cost effectiveness is my goal with zero lead.

Right now I'm working on reducing the smoke, so I have on order a star luber sizer and 2 pounds of thier hard lube.

Lastly if you can't measure it, I'm not interested, over the years I have drop over a $1000 on bad ideas and all kinds of time. Now a days I can get a load right in under 15 rounds.

Remember the old carpinter's saying "Cut once, measure twice" it applies to casting and relaoding.
Reloading / casting can be an exact process with, exact results if you measure.
cheers
Allay

[Old Goat Keeper]

I'm new at this casting and lead boolit business so bear with me folks. Tell me what JPW is. I know what alox is. Also can anyone explain shortly why lead boolits change hardness over time? I never heard of this before.

Thanks in advance!

Tom

[littlejack]

Johnsons Paste Wax.

[fatelk]

Lots of good info and some stuff I didn't know. The boolits are coming out at about .453, and my bore slugs at .4525 (old series 70 barrel). I sure don't see any rough spots in the bore.

I know I should just get another barrel, but this one shoots good and it is a challenge to make it work. My other .45 slugs at .4505, and the same load doesn't lead in it, as long as I use two good coats of tumble lube.

I've used an old two-cavity .230RN mold an tumble lubed for many years with no trouble. It's just this new TC boolit that's giving me so much trouble, and the only difference seems to be the design of the boolit.

I have a chronograph. I'm using 5gr. of Unique for right at 700 fps.


You know what it is. You said when you use 50/50 leading goes away ; it's the alox/jpw.
I guess that has to be it. I think I'll pan lube some, load up a couple boxes for testing to make sure, then just get a sizer die eventually.

[Allay]

Ok I opened that can of worms...
Lyman has a book that covers the science, called "Cast Bullet Handbook"
Starts on page 43 runs about 19 pages...
Bottom line get yourself a lead hardness tester and you can measure the differences yourself.

[Allay]

Rate of twist can have an effect as well.
You want a harder bullet for a higher rate of twist.

The ruff patches in the bore would be a concern as well but if both bullets are the same the flat nose shouldn't make a difference. Unless the bullet is being damage in the feed path.
That's why I use only round nose in my semi auto handguns.
As for rifles I'm a bolt type of guy.
You could make up a few dummy rounds that are very soft and check for damage once you cycle them through to check for feed path damage.

[geargnasher]

I have had a devil of a time with my .45 acp Kimber leading. The bore slugs around .4525" also, and sizing .452" was the issue. Once I hogged out the mould to .4535" and sized to .4533" the leading (with the same tumbe lube you're using) went away. Problem is I have to use Winchester cases only because they are the only ones I've found so far that are thin enough to chamber reliably with those fat boolits. .4535" boolits will jam every time.

Moral of the story is some combos work and some don't, try going a full .001" over groove diameter and see what gives, or try a slower powder and slightly harder alloy (like water-dropped 50/50. Don't get crazy with hardness at those velocities, try to stay around 14 bhn.

Gear

[Allay]

What might be of interest try as you might,your reloading die that sets the bullet will swag the brass case and the part of the bullet inside.
Then if you use a fourth finishing die (Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die) it swags it again.
Measure it for yourself.
Brass does come in different thicknesses, but if you run it through the four die it doesn't matter.
Now the forward end of the bullet is not swagged, but on some handguns this larger bullet that is not re swagged can cause problems by jamming in the throat.
To correct this you have to seat the bullet deeper and when you do this...
Rounds can move forward in the mag and jam
The shorter round causes problems when stripped from the mag.
The shorter round has problems going up the feed ramp to chamber or if it does it is rough damaging you brass, effecting slide movement all which can effect accuracy.(auto)
The forward nose of the round helps guide the cartridge into the chamber, shorten that and it might jam. There's point where to short is a problem and too long is too.
The bigger bullet if jammed in the throat will prevent the round from head spacing on the case mouth, so it will not fire.
Then if you lead is too soft lead might build up on the case mouth and make the case too long, therefore not going into battery again.

Can you see where I'm going with this...

Whether it be lead or FMJ it needs to be a certain size,shape and hardness.
Semi auto that are accurate are the fussiest.

So casting larger will cause other problems.
If the lube doing it's job, and the cartridge arrives undamaged, then it has to be a hardness problem.

That said sometimes casting larger works but only for that gun.

45 is a soft round so it can bump it self up to the right size.
That's why you can't find a 453 die only 454 which is for 45 Colt.

I have never casted a hard 45 and shot it and if I did I would put it aside for my faster bullets.
For me a hard 45 is almost twice the cost of a much smaller 9mm cast of hard lead.
Casted correctly a 45acp is cheaper than a correctly casted 9mm.
I need ammo that will feed and shoot without a problem and I need to be cost effective given the volume I shoot.

Also note different alloys of lead will cast different sizes from the same mould, a hardness test allows you to control this.

As a side note some cheap mass produced FMJ can be out of size but the 4th die will allow you to shoot it without problems.

[Allay]

I have had a devil of a time with my .45 acp Kimber leading. The bore slugs around .4525" also, and sizing .452" was the issue. Once I hogged out the mould to .4535" and sized to .4533" the leading (with the same tumbe lube you're using) went away. Problem is I have to use Winchester cases only because they are the only ones I've found so far that are thin enough to chamber reliably with those fat boolits. .4535" boolits will jam every time.

Moral of the story is some combos work and some don't, try going a full .001" over groove diameter and see what gives, or try a slower powder and slightly harder alloy (like water-dropped 50/50. Don't get crazy with hardness at those velocities, try to stay around 14 bhn.

Gear

I had a similiar problem with a Para P14-45, I went the large bullet route to no avail. Two bullet moulds latter, reworked loading dies and about 3 months of pulling hair. After about $600 I tossed in the towel and sold the gun back to the dealer. It shot hi end store bought amo fine but at $40 a box too expensive for me.
Guns have amo specs for a reason and amo is made to spec for the same reason.

Older guns where not so much built to spec but now a days they are buit to a standard spec. So I'm not a big fan of slugging and only doing it after feeding the gun in question spec amo, that has yet to fail but when it does I'll slug the barrel.
For accuracy you can play around with an extra thou or two.
Like my FS92 slugs to 356 which is spec but for accuracy and economy (softer lead) it shoots 358@150 grains. To shoot 356 the lead has to be very hard.

You find softer lead (10 BHN) in a 45acp will bump up and seal the barrel

[Recluse]

I've used an old two-cavity .230RN mold an tumble lubed for many years with no trouble. It's just this new TC boolit that's giving me so much trouble, and the only difference seems to be the design of the boolit.

The more I thought about this today, the more I wondered something:

What if your boolit(s) are out-of-round?

I'd check the boolits. With the incredible rush to crank out reloading and casting equipment in the past year/two years, QC sometimes didn't get back on the timeclock fast enough--and at a lot of places, not just Lee.

Check to see if BOTH cavities are producing round boolits. Might try casting boolits with just the front cavity, then loading them and shooting them. Then try the back cavity and repeat.

And, might check your seating die. Have you changed the crimp on it with this new boolit? Is there anything that could possibly be getting the boolit out-of-round just enough to lead slightly before obturation is 100% in the barrel?

:coffee:

[fatelk]

These new molds are six-cavity. The bullets are a bit out of round, especially since I lapped the mold. They are about .453- to .454+. I know, I should have been more careful (I tried), but I think they'll be just fine if I size them.

I just tried pan lubing some bullets. Kind of a big pain in the neck for TL boolits, isn't it? I'm really thinking that what I need here is a .453 die for my lube-sizer, but I'm wondering if a custom size like that will cost as much as another barrel with a tighter bore. I wish I knew someone with a .452 sizer I could borrow just to see if it would work.

I will check over my dies again, just to be sure, but I've been pretty careful with seating and crimping. If anything I might not crimp enough.

[sagacious]

I'm really thinking that what I need here is a .453 die for my lube-sizer, but I'm wondering if a custom size like that will cost as much as another barrel with a tighter bore.

If you can lap out a barrel, why not just lap out a LEE push-through sizer from .452" to .453"?

Seems like the easy, inexpensive, and most effective route to go-- especially for TL bullets.

[Echo]

+1, Sag - my thoughts exactly. I've heard that it may take up to 15 minutes to lap out a Lee sizing die - I'm sure there is a sticky around describing the procedure.

[geargnasher]

These new molds are six-cavity. The bullets are a bit out of round, especially since I lapped the mold. They are about .453- to .454+. I know, I should have been more careful (I tried), but I think they'll be just fine if I size them.

I just tried pan lubing some bullets. Kind of a big pain in the neck for TL boolits, isn't it? I'm really thinking that what I need here is a .453 die for my lube-sizer, but I'm wondering if a custom size like that will cost as much as another barrel with a tighter bore. I wish I knew someone with a .452 sizer I could borrow just to see if it would work. I have several, but if your bore is truly the .4525" that you stated, it won't work. You should buy a Lee push-through sizer ($15 most places) or ask Buckshot here on the forum to make you one about .453" (with WW alloy). If you need to go bigger you can always lap the die.

I will check over my dies again, just to be sure, but I've been pretty careful with seating and crimping. If anything I might not crimp enough. If you're shooting .45 ACP you don't need to crimp at all. Skip it. Take the bellmouth out with the crimp shoulder in the seating die, but try not going beyond that. Just make sure you have adequate boolit tension to hold the round, any crimping operation you do (except for roll-crimp) is self-defeating and actually reduces case tension in the crimp area. If you're shooting fatter than .452" I bet they'll have good tension with your die set.

Good luck,

Gear

[fatelk]

I thought about the Lee sizer die, but my point in sizing is really for lube application, rather than actually sizing. I'm about to give up on tumble lubing altogether.

I just shot another 50 rounds today, the pan lubed ones. Not a hint of leading at all; totally clean. Not sure why tumble lubing is not working for these, but it just plain isn't.

[Recluse]

I thought about the Lee sizer die, but my point in sizing is really for lube application, rather than actually sizing. I'm about to give up on tumble lubing altogether.

The point of sizing is for sizing--proper fit in the barrel. It's not just about leading, but also about consistency/accuracy. On one of my .45's, I sacrifice a little bit of leading for other-worldly accuracy and consistency. it's a trade I'm more than happy to live with.

Sizing is not for lube-application; however, lube application can be a by-product of sizing. You size the boolit to ensure proper fit to the barrel.


I just shot another 50 rounds today, the pan lubed ones. Not a hint of leading at all; totally clean. Not sure why tumble lubing is not working for these, but it just plain isn't.

Not sure what to tell you, except for go with what works. :)

:coffee:

[fatelk]

Sizing is not for lube-application; however, lube application can be a by-product of sizing.
I understand, but for me it's the other way around, right now. How else can I get lube on the bullets? I'm frustrated with the tumble lube thing.

I've contacted Buckshot, and think I'll go with a custom sizing die. I'm inclined to go with .453", unless there's a reason not to. I have three .45 autos, one slugs at .4525", one at .452", and one at about .4505". The one with the largest bore gets shot the most. The one with the .452" bore was my grandfather's old Colt, and it pretty much just stays in the safe.

The bullets are a bit out of round, about .4525 at the narrowest, so .453" seems like the best compromise.

I appreciate all the input on this. I've never got into the science of boolits this much before and am realizing that there's a lot to learn. I'm not a serious target shooter or competitor, don't shoot a lot of rounds, and certainly can't afford to put a lot of money into a fancy gun. I figure if I can get good enough to put them all into a 2" circle at 25 yards, and the old .45 will do it, then I'm happy as I shoot tin cans and swinging metal targets.:)