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milkman
06-20-2006, 01:56 PM
paper patching has kinda, sorta been in the back of my mind for awhile. I finally lost enough brain cells that I started doing some reading on it and much of what I could find assumes that the reader has some experience or intelligence, both wrong in my case. I found several references to a book by Matthews, but the hook hasn't gone deep enough for me to buy it yet. I figger this is the place to have some basic questions answered, so that I will know whether to proceed further.

1. using special bullets was mentioned. - Can I use my existing molds and patch over the grease grooves?

2. Can I use boolits with GC shanks without the GC?

3. An article, recommended in a post here, said that with smokeless powder the bullet shoud be .001-.002" larger than bore diameter BEfORE patching, true? A .459 bullet with 2 wraps of 9lb would be about .463+???? Or are they sized back to the previous diameter?

4. One article said that modern rifles would cut the patch at each land, another said if the patch was cut, you had trouble?

5. I will probably be using a NEA 45-70. Anyone have an idea if their throats are compatable with PP?

milkman

Dale53
06-20-2006, 02:01 PM
Milkman;

>>>3. An article, recommended in a post here, said that with smokeless powder the bullet shoud be .001-.002" larger than bore diameter BEfORE patching, true? A .459 bullet with 2 wraps of 9lb would be about .463+???? Or are they sized back to the previous diameter?<<<

That is "BORE", not groove diameter. That would be, say .450"+.001".-.002" or .452" before patching. Then typically run thru a .460 die before loading (Lee push thru die would be swell).

Dale53

Bigjohn
06-20-2006, 09:17 PM
Milkman; I have read and reread Paul Matthews book and will try to answer your questions with reference to this book.


1. using special bullets was mentioned. - Can I use my existing molds and patch over the grease grooves?

Yes you can but they will need to be sized down to at least .451/.452" diam. and this is best done in stages.


2. Can I use boolits with GC shanks without the GC?

Yes, either way will work, one will give you a tapered base and easy loading. If the gascheack is used it will need to be sized down to the pb projectile size before patching.


3. An article, recommended in a post here, said that with smokeless powder the bullet shoud be .001-.002" larger than bore diameter BEfORE patching, true? A .459 bullet with 2 wraps of 9lb would be about .463+???? Or are they sized back to the previous diameter?\

As Dale 53 said in his post;
That is "BORE", not groove diameter. That would be, say .450"+.001".-.002" or .452" before patching. Then typically run thru a .460 die before loading (Lee push thru die would be swell).


4. One article said that modern rifles would cut the patch at each land, another said if the patch was cut, you had trouble?

If the patch is damaged in anyway, Yes you will think you have a lead mine in your barrel. The solution to this is in the method of patching. Under normal circumstanses rifling in a modern firearm will not cut the patch unless there are burrs left from production and a few 'J' bullets would solve that issue.
A patch should be applied to the projectile so it covers part of the ogive for about 1/16". This way it will not present the front edge to the rifling.


5. I will probably be using a NEA 45-70. Anyone have an idea if their throats are compatable with PP?

Test fit a projectile into the barrel. Method:- Take one rod capable of fitting into the bore, close action and place rod in from muzzle until it contacts breech face. Mark rod at muzzle, remove rod.
Open breech, point muzzle down and drop in a projectile (only). With small section of rod, tap base of projectile lightly to seat it lightly into rifling. Careful, replace rod into barrel until it contacts the front of the projectile and again mark the rod. When rod is marked use it to remove projectile from barrel.

Remove rod and measure distance between the two marks; take approx 1/16" from measurement and you have the OAL for your cartridge. Try and adjust length (if needed) during reloading.

Locally, we have one shooter who uses swaged projectiles Paper patched with smokeless powder in a rebarreled Martini action and the barrel is Magna Ported. He reports no problems with cutting of the patch.
I use a cast projectile Paper patched in a BPCR Browning and Pedersoli.

I will take some photos and post them.

I would recommend you spend the money and buy the book by Matthews as it contains the answers to questions you have not asked here and may need. Even if you do not take up the art of Paper Patching, it makes an interesting read and contains much information on techniques.

If you wish to try without the effort of patching your own, I believe Buckshot who posts here offers a service which includes patched projectiles.

Best wishes,
John:drinks:

Bigjohn
06-20-2006, 09:56 PM
1680

The cartridge has a 380gr pp Projectile and is charged with smokeless powder. This is one of Patricks cartridges.

The projectile weighs 420 grs and patches out at approx 460".

John.

Buckshot
06-21-2006, 02:38 AM
...................Milkman, paper patching is pretty simple stuff. It takes a bit longer to patch a slug then it does to cast one. Both Dale and Big John answered your questions.

Other stuff is that (it's in the Paul Matthews books, "The Paper Jacket") you'll need to make a template for cutting the patches, as you sure don't want to cut them one at a time! So that means a blade type paper cutter or a set of very good and very sharp scissors.

One of the neat things about patching is you can pre-size the slug down several thousanths and use a certain paper to give a desired finish size. Or you can size down an already paper patched slug (to an extent).

The beauty of paper patching is that it can allow you to shoot something that you might not have the correct mould for. It also make a superlative hunting boolit as when patched you can drive a pure lead, or almost pure lead slug to full jacketed velocities in most all straight walled rifle cases, and some early necked cases.

They do take time though. Time to cut the patches and the time to apply them. I sure wouldn't expend much energy paper patching for just plinking purposes, except in one instance. Since I don't have a .470" mould for my two 577-450's, if I want to shoot them, at this point I have no option other then paper patching the slugs.

....................Buckshot

andrew375
06-23-2006, 04:37 AM
1. using special bullets was mentioned. - Can I use my existing molds and patch
over the grease grooves?
Yes

2. Can I use boolits with GC shanks without the GC?
Yes.

3. An article, recommended in a post here, said that with smokeless powder the bullet should be .001-.002" larger than bore diameter before patching, true? A .459 bullet with 2 wraps of 9lb would be about .463+???? Or are they sized back to the previous diameter?

Not true. Ideally the bullet dia. should the same as bore dia. so it rides the lands but I've seen bullets .015" under bore dia. and patched with three wraps of heavy paper perform well.

4. One article said that modern rifles would cut the patch at each land, another said if the patch was cut, you had trouble?

The paper will be cut, this is not just about modern rifles ask anyone who shoots a .451 match rifle. In fact if the paper isn't cut you can get problems as the paper has to leave the bullet as soon as it leaves the muzzle. In any event it isn't a problem. Paper patch bullets leave my barrels spotless, the perfect antidote to jacket fouling.

I've used paper patching for my .375 H&H, .308 win and 6.5 x 55. These were bullets cast from moulds I designed to give a cast version of jacketed sp/bt match bullets. All three I got to shoot inside two moa at over 2600 consistently. In fact the .375 bullet, propelled by 71 gr. of VV N140, gave one of my best scores at 1000 yards. So much for cast spitzers not being accurate!

Experiment with different papers and directions of wrap, some rifles don’t care about direction of wrap but some definitely do!

I wrap my bullets so the paper ends just above the start of the ogive. Keep this consistent as it affects the amount of bullet jump. Then I put the bullet through a conventional sizing die; this ensures all bullets are the same dia. and the lube helps to protect the paper.

Experiment with seating depth, sometimes it matters sometimes not. Start with the bullet crushed into the rifling and work your way back.

Don't worry about problems that don't exist. Give everything a try. I've seen good shooting done with bullets patched with self adhesive labels; the shooter hadn't read the articles that said they didn't work!

For paper just test out whatever you find it is surprising what you come across. I just rescued two reams of two thicknesses of suitable paper from the bin at work. The test is easy and fast; tear off a piece about one inch by three inches, wet (not soak) it and roll around the end of a pen or pencil as if you were wrapping a bullet and try to twist on a tail. If the paper tears it is no good, if the tail forms ok you've got yourself paper patching paper.

45 2.1
06-23-2006, 07:05 AM
I've used paper patching for my .375 H&H, .308 win and 6.5 x 55. These were bullets cast from moulds I designed to give a cast version of jacketed sp/bt match bullets. All three I got to shoot inside two moa at over 2600 consistently. In fact the .375 bullet, propelled by 71 gr. of VV N140, gave one of my best scores at 1000 yards. So much for cast spitzers not being accurate!

Another guy who got cast to shoot above 1650 fps. See guys, it is possible.

waksupi
06-23-2006, 08:38 AM
I shoot several rifles at over 2000. But I want to know, is the 6.5X55 you are shooting, a Swedish Mauser, or something else? I would think the rotational force limit would be far surpassed with 2600 fps. If it is an issued Swede, please give us some more info, so we can try to duplicate the results. I would really like to be able to use mine for longer range varmint shooting.

9.3X62AL
06-23-2006, 08:57 AM
I shoot several rifles at over 2000. But I want to know, is the 6.5X55 you are shooting, a Swedish Mauser, or something else? I would think the rotational force limit would be far surpassed with 2600 fps. If it is an issued Swede, please give us some more info, so we can try to duplicate the results. I would really like to be able to use mine for longer range varmint shooting.

Now, I swore up and down that the Ruger 77R in 6.5 x 55 WOULD NOT get used with cast boolits, but I just might have to patch up some of the NEI 25 caliber/114 flat noses just for grins and jollies. You guys either inspire me with ideas, or infest me with annoyances--I'm not sure which it is this time.

45 2.1
06-23-2006, 09:58 AM
Ric-
I've got all or have had all the Swede military issue rifles. The 38 is the easiest to get accuracy from (above and below 1650fps). I also have tried the Carcano and Jap rifles extensively. I usually patched up 25 cal. cast with 9 lb. onionskin when I wanted velocity out of them. They cast the perfect size to patch to begin with. Boolit length is your enemy with the swedes. LeftoverDJ ran a couple of 25 cal. 75 to 80 gr molds that patch good and most all of the 25-20 boolits are excellent patched. I have freechecked a couple of PB 6.5 boolits and got good results with them also. The 6.5 GB mold we did some time ago would be ok also. You will find that the swede is a lot more fickle in powder selection, boolit alloy and seating depth. The easiest thing to do is get some 10 to 12 BHN PB 25 cal boolits sized about 0.258" and patch them up.

andrew375
06-26-2006, 04:40 AM
I shoot several rifles at over 2000. But I want to know, is the 6.5X55 you are shooting, a Swedish Mauser, or something else? I would think the rotational force limit would be far surpassed with 2600 fps. If it is an issued Swede, please give us some more info, so we can try to duplicate the results. I would really like to be able to use mine for longer range varmint shooting.

A bog standard M38 carbine. Though the barrel was a bit warn, throat = .272" - groove = .2685".

I agree that bullet length counts against cast bullets in the Swede, with bullets of any meaningful weight there is an awful lot of mass not going anywhere at the same time as the front hits the rifling and is suddenly spun up to match the 1 in 7.5" rifling.

Dale53
06-26-2006, 11:25 AM
I have a suggestion for cutting patches with a template (probably the BEST way to insure that each patch is the same as the last). Use a rotary cutter like the quilters use (my wife is a dedicated quilter). You can find the rotary cutter on line or at your local fabric shop. You will also need a proper cutting board (they sell those also). Do NOT try to makeshift a cutting board. The correct material will greatly extend the life of the rotary cutter.

The rotary cutter makes it extremely easy to precision cut multiple layers of paper and greatly speed up the process. This also allows you to make the template from easily worked plastic (the fabric store will also have material for this - just ask for it. Tell them you are trying to make a template for quilt pieces).

FWIW
Dale53