Swaging .224 cal bullets - Part2

[Hickory]

http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab247/hickory_01/Bullets/photobucket021.jpg

http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab247/hickory_01/photobucket023.jpg

http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab247/hickory_01/photobucket016.jpg

After you have swaged all the cores, the lube must be removed to insure a tight grip on the jacket when the core is swaged inside of the jacket.
Place them in a clean container until you are ready to form the point on the bullet.

http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab247/hickory_01/photobucket027.jpg

Now comes the tricky part of swaging your bullets. If you have exercised good quality control and annealed your cases properly 99.5% of your bullets will turn out looking really good without the nose folding upon its self. When you are ready to form the point remove all lube near the mouth of the case where the point will be. If you don’t it will cause wrinkles on the point. This will make a very nice hollow point bullet. If you have a lead tip point forming die, you can run the bullet into the die just enough to force a little bit of lead out the end.
http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab247/hickory_01/Bullets/photobucket002.jpg
This is an update. It shows the gradual forming of the point of the bullet. This is what happens inside the die that you don't see.


http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab247/hickory_01/photobucket030.jpg

When you have finished with your bullets, now is a good time to put them in the tumbler to make them nice and shinny.


http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab247/hickory_01/Bullets/Gunstock015.jpg

[ANeat]

Quality work Hickory, well done.... Im about to venture into this so its good timing.

[Hickory]

ANeat;
I saw you press, and am impressed!
What caliber are you thinking about
running on your press?

[ANeat]

Hopefully 22, 6mm and 30 cal jacketed, 45 lead. who knows what else

Probably try the rimfire jackets on the 22 and 6mm.

I always thought this was a facinating aspect of shooting that I wanted to try

[Hickory]

I like making these bullets. After my orignal investment, it cost very little to make these bullets.
If I sweep up the brass at the local shooting club, the cost is -0-.

I have nearly 1/2 ton of pure lead that I have aquired over the years at almost no cost.

If I count the cost of electricty to melt lead and not use the lead wire, the cost to produce a 1000 bullets would be less then $10.00

Provided I don't count my own labor.

[DLCTEX]

Thanks for posting Hickory!

[scrapcan]

Another thanks from me on part 2. I too hope to venture down this path.

[cumminsnut76]

Very nice Bullets!!

[jixxerbill]

thanks hickory for the pics and the great info...bill

[warf73]

Thanks again Hickory, I just wish the cost wasnt so much for the die set to make 224 bullets, I dont shoot them small pill enough to justify the cost of getting started maken them.
Those are great looking bullets I bet they shoot GREAT also.

[jdjframes]

Nice bullets. I use an old Hempstead die set from the early 70s in an RCBS RC press to make a spire point bullet. Got a set of BSS dies and press from Larry Blackmon a couple of years ago. Good products in my opinion.

Hardest part is derimming the 22 hull. Try to make them in 1 pass puts a big strain on the press and my arm. Set the derim die about 2 threads into the press top - no problem, but the jacket is stuck in the die. Try to push it out with the next and get some damage at jacket mouth. Knock them out, lower the die and run them again - no problem, just a pain to do. Any suggestions?

I like your anneal process. That has given my problems in the past.

Anybody interested - give it a try by all means. It doesn't cost thousands $.

Jim

[Hickory]

Jim,
I have to be away form the computer until late tonight.
I'll comment tomorrow about deriming.
I had the same problem.

[Hickory]

Jim,
The problem is one I had when I first got started swaging bullets. The press I was using at the time was a RCBS Rock Chucker. I soon realized that I could not remove or swage off the rim of 22 rimfire cases without a lot of effort.

The problem was that the ram was only half way up in its stroke. It should have been at the very top of the stroke, whereby the most power would be exerted in the last ½ “of the stroke.

The first thing I did was to buy a reloading press with a larger opening. That would allow the ram to be closer to the top of its stroke when it came in contact with the draw die. You only need to push the 22 case into the draw die just enough to remove the rim. The only reloading press with a large opening at the time was Lyman’s Orange Crusher.

This did not totally solve the problem but it helped. The next thing that helped quite a bit was to reduce the length of the pin that 22 case slides over. You can shorten it by grinding it of a little at a time, being careful not to get to hot or else it will lose its temper, (not that it will get angry with you) but that the pin will become soft and will wear out faster than normal.

The next thing to do is to check the diameter of the pin itself. Dave Corbin in his book Rediscover Swaging, pages 158-159 calls for the diameter to be at .199-200” but I’ve found that .198-.199 is best. And it helps to have a slight radius on the end of the pin, so that the sharp edge doesn’t push off the top of the drawn jackets.


http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab247/hickory_01/photobucket014.jpg

[jdjframes]

Hickory:

Frank Hempstead made a shortened ram for the RCBS RC when he made my dies so I'm already working closer to the top of the ram travel. I can imagine the hassle of using the full length ram!

Think I'll measure the pin and maybe shorten it a bit.

Swage On!

Thanks.

Jim

[scrapcan]

again more good info. Thanks

[Smokin7mm]

Hickory, why is it that you only run the casing in just far enough to de-rim? This requires you to knock the de-rimed jacket out the bottom. I just push mine through. When I was doing this on my rockchucker it was a little tough but still pushed them through. To make it a little easier I took the handle off my swaging press and put it on the rockchucker. It is a little longer and has a bend in it which with the die set up in the rockchucker to where the 22lr case would completely enter the de-rim die so the following one would push it out. The handle would be at about 90 degrees (horizontal) and I could stand over it and push down whiched helped with leverage. Now I have a de-rim set up for my swaging press which has much more leverage than the rockerchucker and is like a hot knife through butter.
Bret

[Hickory]

Bret.
Do you push the jacket through the die in one stroke or just enough to have it strip off of the pin, and force it through with the next one?

I can’t see how it is possible to do it in one stroke, so you must do the ladder.
I use to do the second method. But I found that when forming the point, the mouth of the jacket was deformed enough that it was hard get more than 80% good bullets without something going wrong.

Yea, it takes a little longer, but I try to protect the mouth of the jacket.
;-)

[jdjframes]

I get some damage if I try to push a jacket out with the next. So I tap them out, lower the die and re run. Makes it much easier on the press and arm. If I get the adjustment right on the second run, air pressure will pop a jacket out as the next one is rammed in behind it.

It is kind of neat to take a peice of scrap (22 hull), a bit of lead, some precision tools and make a bullet. I also use J4 jackets to make serious bullets - will shoot as good as any bullets short of benchrest quality and pretty darn close to BR bullets.

Any of you guys in Arkansas?

Swage On!

Jim

[Smokin7mm]

I push it through in one stroke. With the rockchucker it is a mater of leverage thus adding the longer handle. Now that I have a set up for my swaging press leverage is not an issue but stroke is as the swaging press has a much shorter stroke than a loading press. I push the case in so it is past the radiused section of the de-rim die and fully in the straight portion. If you leave it hanging part way the next casing to push through will damage the mouth which forms the point. It is a fine line but if it is in far enough there is no resistance pushing it out as it is already fully drawn down. With your current method what is your % of good bullets where the cases dont fold on point forming. I use the oven clean cycle method of annealing jackets.

I also make 6.5mm & 7mm bullets with a process I have worked up using 22mag casings. Have a few more rejects but free jackets are free jackets.
Bret

[felix]

Yep, Fort Smith ... felix

[sagacious]

Shortening and slightly radiusing the derimming punch has also worked very well for me.

Reducing the diam of that punch also reduces effort, but I find that if the diam is reduced too much, a variable amount of a slight fold or ring remains where the inside radius of the case rim was.

I prefer that the cases are not just derimmed, but ironed completely smooth. Not sure how much difference it makes, but I try to keep everything as consistent as possible.

That's just how I like it! Keep on keepin on! :drinks:

[Hickory]

With your current method what is your % of good bullets where the cases dont fold on point forming.
Bret

I get very few bullets with the jacket that folds over anymore.
I was going to post a picture of one but could not find any.

[Rat-Man]

I was going to post a picture of one but could not find any.

You talking about jackets that do this?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=260&pictureid=1831

[Hickory]

Yea, those are the ones I couldn't find!

[.357]

Wow okay i really want to learn/do swaging .....

[jdjframes]

Hickory:

I think I shall have a short de-rimming pin made instead of cutting off mine. That way I can leave the die set and just change pins.

22 Short cases make a nice little 35 grain bullet. .600 J4s make a 41grainer.

I finally have a 22 Hornet that wants to shoot so I'm getting ready to have serious go at it. Lil'Gun, pistol primers, quality bullets, precision reloading and 30x scope may end years of frustration.

Swage On!

Jim

[giz189]

What weight are these bullets and how consistent are they with the 2 hulls ?

[giz189]

Okay Hickory, I found part one. This is really way cool. Is it possible to do this for 224 bullets, from start to finish on a Rock Chucker press?

[jdjframes]

griz189:

Indeed you can do the entire job on an RCBS RC. Do it all time with good results.

I'm from Benton.

Swage On!

Jim

[uncleskippy]

jdjframes,

What brand of dies do you use to make 224 bullets with a RCBS RC?

Thanks

[jdjframes]

Uncleskippy:

I have an old set of Frank Hempstead dies I got in the early 70s - derimming die, core swage, core seater and point die.

Also have a set of Larry Blackmon dies and press. He modifies the RC for swaging using his dies. Can use the same dies in his press if you decide to upgrade.

By the way, some of the finest carbide die makers modify RCs to make some of the finest bullets money can buy - nothing wrong with the RC.

Swage On!

Jim

[uncleskippy]

I agree. I love my RC. I was just wondering if you could use Larry's dies without modifying the RC?

[jdjframes]

Uncleskippy:

Larry modifies the RC a bit. Takes about 2 minutes to return to reloading mode. He will furnish the drill bit and jig for a DIY job, or do it for you.

A set of his dies and an RC will make as good a bullet as the average shooter needs. The BR crowd goes for custom carbide dies, and that is OK if one has several thousand $$ floating around and plans to make thousands of bullets per year. Some BR types who make bullets just for themselves do quite well with Larry's dies.

Can get his address next week, don't have it at home. Nice guy to deal, dentist by trade.

Swage On!

Jim

[40sandwfan]

Okay guys. I spend more time on here just reading and learning from everyone than I do posting, but I'm highly interested in this process. Aside from this thread, can y'all point me in a direction where I can learn more about it?
I've talked to many people who've done it and they love it. I've shot some swaged bullets in others guns but have never shot any in mine!! I've always thought it would be fun to do and would be rewarding as well.
I'd like to do it for .30 Cal Rifle, .223 and my .45 ACP. Any help y'all can give would be greatly appreciated!! Thanks in advance!!

[jdjframes]

40sandwfan:

The posts by Hickory will give you as good a picture of bullet swaging as you will get anywhere.

Corbins.com has a wealth of info, books,etc. Check them out. Both Corbin brothers,
Dave and Richard, make presses and dies. Both have their following and both have their detractors. Can't please everyone all the time.

Swaqing is fun, interesting, fascinating and can get expensive if you let it. If possible, try to find someone local, or at least semi-local, who swages and see if you can get together. Some hands-on experience and guidance is worth big $$.

Swage On!

Jim

[giz189]

griz189:

Indeed you can do the entire job on an RCBS RC. Do it all time with good results.

I'm from Benton.

Swage On!

JimHey Jim, down here in Magnolia, you know, LA (lower arkansas). Where do I get the dies to do this with? If you could, pm me with info. And also info on what mods need to be done to RC. Thanks Ricky

[jdjframes]

Felix:

I'm in Benton.

[Smokin7mm]

Bret.
Do you push the jacket through the die in one stroke or just enough to have it strip off of the pin, and force it through with the next one?

I can’t see how it is possible to do it in one stroke, so you must do the ladder.
I use to do the second method. But I found that when forming the point, the mouth of the jacket was deformed enough that it was hard get more than 80% good bullets without something going wrong.

Yea, it takes a little longer, but I try to protect the mouth of the jacket.
;-)

Hickory,
Another thing you can do to avoid having to knock each one out the bottom is to use a seperate punch pin to push them through. The die sets Richard Corbin supplied me always have this extra pin for the longer jackets. You mearly push up as far as you can in one stroke. Then you insert the push through pin (about a 1" pin slightly smaller diameter than the derimming pin). This gets the jacket through the die completely so you dont damage the mouth of the case.
I am not sure of your set up but I did a bunch last night and did not damage any jacket mouths. As long as you get the mouth of the jacket past the radiused portion of the die I do not have a problem. On really long cases (ie 22mags or when drawing other calibers down and the jackets are over about 1.115" long) I use my push through pins)
Bret

[felix]

JDJ, look up milkman. ... felix

[jdjframes]

Hickory:

Didn't tell you, but your photo sequence is as good as I've ever seen.

Your press is the "great grandfather" of the BSSP by Blackmon.

[uncleskippy]

Will Larry Blackmon dies (.224) fit in a regular Rock Chucker press or is the thread size to large?

Thanks

[jdjframes]

Larry's conversion for the RC is a modified ram, punch holder and ejection pin. The actual dies will work in both the RC and BSSP. Bullets are ejected on the upstroke of the handle - no tapping out with a mallet. A hole is drilled in the base of the press for the ejector pin. He will supply a jig and drill bit or do the job for you.

If you convert a RC or buy a BSSP system, get 3 punch holders - set them and leave them instead of changing all the time. I got 3 with the BSSP setup after using it a bit, makes life just a little easier.

You will need 2 core seater punches if you plan to use 22 hulls and commercial jackets - different thickness of the jacket. BE REAL SURE TO ALWAYS USE THE CORRECT PUNCH FOR THE JACKET!

Which to chose? I had the RC setup already and just wanted something different.
May have my other RC converted to Larry's system, then swage cores on 1, seat cores on another and point up bullets on the BSSP.

Doing it again? Rock Chuckers all the way.

Swage On!

Jim

[uncleskippy]

Thanks Jim. Your info was what I needed. I will probably go RC also. I am in the process of making a custom handle to give me some added pressure also.

[jdjframes]

The only part that is anything like difficult is de-rimming 22 hulls. By adjusting the die, it is a one hand operation both times, if you are standing up.

Other operations are easy is as easy does. I expected core swaging to be a grunt and strain deal, no sweat. Core seating and point forming are a breeze. Don't need extra leverage which might reduce your "feel". That "feel" is developed with practice and can tell you if something is wrong before something messes up big time.

Blackmon dies screw into the modified, shortened ram. The ejector pin operates in the ram. Punch holders screw into the top of the press like reloading dies. These punch holders won't fit a BSSP.

Either system will serve you well for years to come if kept CLEAN. Another story there.

If I can help you in any way, PM me. I think I'm registered.

Swage On!

Jim

[MIBULLETS]

Jim,

I was considering purchasing some of Blackmon's punch holders to use in my Corbin press. In your post you mention that the punch holders for the modified RC won't fit a BSS press. Does he make 2 sizes?

Can you give me the dimensions of a external punch so I can compare my Corbin M die punches to see if the BSS punch holder will work for me?

Thanks,
Dan

[jdjframes]

Blackmon punch holders for the RC won't fit the BSSP.

He does make 2 sizes. Right now I can't get to mine to measure.

Let him know which Corbin press you are using and he will furnish the correct holder.

Larry is a good guy to deal with.

Do you have his address?

Swage On!

Jim

[MIBULLETS]

Yes I have his address.

I have a Dave Corbin S Press. My current punch holder is 7/8 14 thread. The M die punch heads are .498" diameter and about .375" long. The S punch heads are .498" diameter and about .750" long. I was just wondering if they would fit in one of the holders Larry makes.

[uncleskippy]

jdjframes,

Can you post some pictures of the BSSP press? Larry's pdf doesn't make it look to clear on it's looks.

Thanks

[shooterg]

I have a Corbin CSP press with Blackmon dies - I prefer Blackmon punch holders over the Corbins, more and easier adjustments can be made as his have a "micrometer" like adjustment knob on top, not just the external 7/8-14 die threads. Corbin may do 'em different now - mine are older. But, yeah, get a least 3 of 'em !

[jdjframes]

Skip:

Will have to get my son to take shots and post for me. Be a day or two.

I can do lots of things better than the average bear - photography isn't one of them.

Swage On!

Jim

[uncleskippy]

No problem and thanks for you help

[MIBULLETS]

Thanks shooterg, this is what I need.

Have you used Corbin punches in the hold too?

[jdjframes]

Gang:

Swaged some little 35 grain bullets tonight. Finished and as I put things away, I just tried the punch holders for the BSSP in my RC.

Guess what? They fit and reloading dies fit the BSSP. Sometime between printing his brochure and making my press, Larry must have gone to 7/8x14 threads for the punch holders.

Opens a whole new ballgame for de-rimming 22 hulls. If Larry will make a de-rimming pin to fit the BSSP, a tough job will be lots easier. Jury rigged what I have and it is a snap. Need to be able to screw the pin into the ram and be home free.

Swage On!

Jim

[jdjframes]

Guess it is good thing to read, and study, brochures to be sure to understand exactly what the writer was saying.

Sorry if I steered anyone wrong about BSS, Inc punch holders; they fit any 7/8x14 reloading press as well the BSSP. Don't know about Corbin stuff.

Swage On!

Jim

[jdjframes]

Skip:

Trying to pin the son down is like trying to pick up an eel, very difficult.

Will try to get some shots soon.

Swage On!

Jim

[uncleskippy]

Thanks for remembering. Anytime, I'm in no hurry

[jdjframes]

Skip:

Between working full-time and going to college full-time, his time is a little thin.

Good young man. He will get it.

BSSP is horizontal rig, links run from toggle to press head, like a Redding Ultra Mag press. Ram travel is approximately 2 inches. Punch holders are 7/8 x 14 as is press head, naturally. Dies screw into the ram with a 5/8x20 (I think) thread. Ejector runs in ram so cored jackets or formed bullets are ejected as handle is raised. For the sake of cheap, I use my Hempstead core swage die in a RC. No sweat job.

Neat little set up, swages .224 bullets with ease. The slightest little difference in pressure is easily detected and that cored jacket or formed bullet is set aside as a junker.

Swage On!

Jim

[closebutnocigar]

Really great work!!!

I ´m very astonished what one can do by swaging!!

What do you use for jacket if you want to make 30 caliber bullets?

[jdjframes]

closebutnocigar:

Probably best to buy J4 or other commercial jackets. There are lots of posts by people using some small cailber cases for jackets. Might be OK, haven't tried it.

Jim

[closebutnocigar]

How heavy are this bullets, please?

[jdjframes]

closebutnocigar:

Depends on the length of the jacket used and to some degree on the die.

J4s come in lenghts of .925 - 1.400 (that I know about). Bullet weight can be from about 120 - 200 plus. When you get into making copper tube jackets, whatever your shoulder can stand is the limit, within reason.

Some of the 30 caliber guys can answer much better that me.

corbins.com has some good reading and info.

Jim

[Jim_Fleming]

Hickory, it's interesting to see an OLD Mitey-Mite still in action! Yes, I have one, I've not been posting because my Mitey-Mite has been getting exercise like it hasn't seen in 15-20 years...

I have a post elsewhere about my comeback and the work it's taken to get here...

It's just wonderful to see those tarnished ugly .22 RF cases come back into little brass jewels... lol! [smilie=p: :bigsmyl2:

I wonder where I got that silly line about brass and copper jewelry? :-P Yes, sir, I've read from cover to cover most of Dave Corbin's older books & pamphlets...

I really enjoyed the pictures, it's almost as if I took the pictures myself this last 8-10 days... Prices are right too!

Take Care,

[-Mischief]

I know this is a crazy, old thread..but...how do you get such uniform points? I have a BSSP press from Larry Blackmon and I try to be as precise as I can with the steps required to make good boolits. Unfortunately, my points are not consistant. I took 30 hulls weighing exactly 10.4gns each and swaged 30 cores to exactly 44.6gns...half of them were open tips and the other half ended up being some sort of soft tip, whether just to the tip of the boolit or just protruding out of the tip. How do I get them all to look the same?

[Reload3006]

it could be your variation is different lots or different mfr on the brass. the thickness of the brass will make a difference. How tall are all your cups? are they all the same length? that will make a difference. are you checking your seated cores with a micrometer and ensuring you are seating the core exactly the same in each bullet?
I personally quit worrying about it and got a Sinclair Meplat trimmer now they are all the same. It does help them fly a bit truer .. probably better than I am able to shoot.

[-Mischief]

When using the trimmer, you need to make a soft tip and then cut it back, right? I do not measure each hull but I do separate them by brand first.

[Reload3006]

you can trim an open tip.