Bullet diameter Q? pre patched

[wonderwolf]

I've been only using .450" size bullets before patching with black powder. They usually patch up to .459 with the paper I have been using but as you can imagine its a really gosh darn tight fit after 3 shots even if I brush. My bore is .450 and the grooves are .4585 I'm getting frustrated with this size bullet. I imagine its meant for smokeless powder loads (its rapine mold, of which I have two weights 405gr and 501gr) and like I said they drop right smack dab at .450 with soft lead.

So here are some Questions I've been turning over in my head lately as I'm trying to settle on a bullet diameter to go with. Does the paper thickness need to exceed the differance between the lands and grooves? In my head I'm seeing a under bore sized bullet tearing the patch while its being bumped up to size. And what pre patched diameter do you guys use for .45-70 with black powder loads?

I've got the money for one of RRR molds, but I don't know what a versatile diameter would be. I am thinking about making a push through sizer on the lathe so I can size down my .450 bullets to .440ish (using a 7/16 reamer and lapping from there). How bad of an idea would it to just go with the .440" mold and then fuss with the paper more? I worry if I go too small then with just two wraps of thicker paper the bullets may walk out of the cases. A cylinder mold like the old ideals may be in the works if I can get a better idea of their design especially the ejection pin portion and nose design.

If I don't try making a cylinder mold for the 45-70 I'll try making one for my 50-140 as I do want to try paper patched bullets in that but I don't want to put a ton of money in it since its just a plinker

[Kenny Wasserburger]

You need a mould around .444 to .446, wet patch with Tracing paper of .0016 thickness patch up to .450-.451 seat the bullet out.

They shoot quite well this way even to 1 Mile.

And do darn well at 800-900-1000 yards.

Kenny Wasserburger

[powderburnerr]

for ease of learning and simplicity in loading start with the 440 dia bullet ,this will give you satisfactory results with the least amount of frustratration. once you have the process mastered . then you can go any way you like with confidence, Frustration ruins more good times than anything. ............Dean
I would be happy to send you some .440 s to try before you buy....I may even hav some 444s I will look.

[Doc Highwall]

Kenny, when you patch them to .450"-.451" with a .450" bore, how tight is your boolit in the case and what would happen if you had to take the cartridge out of the gun would it debullet? If I recall your boolits are just seated by hand. I am looking at this as if my chamber was on the loose side and if it would be beneficial to neck size a minimal amount to hold the boolit in alignment.

[montana_charlie]

Wonderwolf,
If you would like to have better luck with your (current) patched to groove bullet, try wiping the bore with damp patches between shots.

You can use plain water, or mix up some 'moose milk'' to dampen the patches. Moose milk is oil and water. Ballistol can be used, or any water soluable oil used when machining metal.

A ratio of 80% water and 20% oil works satisfactorily.

Wet the patches moderately, than squeeze a stack of them between two boards to wring out most of the liquid. Place them in an airtight container to prevent drying out.

After your shot, run two patches through the bore, letting each one drop off at the muzzle.
Then dry the chamber with a mop...or by running a dry patch through the barrel.

If you have other issues, too, describe them.

CM

[wonderwolf]

for ease of learning and simplicity in loading start with the 440 dia bullet ,this will give you satisfactory results with the least amount of frustratration. once you have the process mastered . then you can go any way you like with confidence, Frustration ruins more good times than anything. ............Dean
I would be happy to send you some .440 s to try before you buy....I may even hav some 444s I will look.

I've got the process of patching down pretty good. its just with these .450" diam bullets. Is your mold one of RRR's molds by chance?

I want to avoid running a rod down the bbl as much as possible once a shot isn't bad, but with my tang mounted sight it is in the way of even doing that.

[wonderwolf]

You need a mould around .444 to .446, wet patch with Tracing paper of .0016 thickness patch up to .450-.451 seat the bullet out.

They shoot quite well this way even to 1 Mile.

And do darn well at 800-900-1000 yards.

Kenny Wasserburger


Again I'm confused about paper thickness though. I've got .004"+ depth of rifling and I would only have .0032" thickness of paper.

I've got paper that is .001375" 3 wraps would work but 3 wraps would be excessive.


Q? why hasn't anybody gotten with the people who do the slow motion clips and taken some videos of the area ahead of the muzzle to see how patches leave the bullet under various circumstances. #of wraps, cup base, lube etc...

[powderburnerr]

wonderwolf,
it is a RRR mould it is the 440 gibbs he makes . you can shoot it with a patch of .001 , .002 , or .0025. and they all work . depending on what you want to do . the 1 tho. patch is a good hunting round , the 2 tho can be shot with a blow tube with good results and if you want to work hard at it the .0025 paper will give a very tight fit to bore ..you are welcome to e-mail me at
zb70045 @ ctnis .com if you like , remove all the spaces. .....Dean

as to wiping , a good delrin rod is flexable enough to go around or over your tang sight.

[Don McDowell]

I want to avoid running a rod down the bbl as much as possible once a shot isn't bad, but with my tang mounted sight it is in the way of even doing that.

Put a lubed felt wad between to card wads, that'll help keeping from having to wipe if you patch to .450 or smaller.
Delron rods are the best way to go for wiping between shots.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Doc hiwall,

Sorry so long to get back to you on this question, My bullets are just slip fit as you recalled, the Norma cases they are snug but if you shake them they will fall out of the case. Perfect for Competition but not worth a hoot for hunting. The will stay in the rifling if I pull the case out.

Wonderwolf,

the best Advice I can say is that thick paper is great for hunting and say 200 yards with a .441 bullet. However if accuracy is your game, my first advice is the very best you can get. I strive for accuracy in my loads, Sub MOA is my game, and 200 yards is the shortest range I test at, and the loads will do it when I do my part. I have used thicker paper and a .441 bullet to hunt buffalo with and we have killed several with that bullet. However these loads are Way less then great for long range accuracy or real tack driving accuracy.

The thinner paper and a .446 bullet will deliver the mail at 200 yards, it also will deliver the mail at 800 yards 900 yards and 1000 yards, And even 1 Mile! It can and will beat the very best GG bullet in competition if the Nut behind the butt does his part.

Again it all depends on what your after.

I been there done it with undersize bullets and wont do it again from an accuracy standpoint, and have the scars to prove it, 2008 Phoenix Winter nationals come to mind.


2009 was a different story, got the scores and trophys to also prove it. Windy conditions the last day of Winter Nats 2 of the very best long range shooters dropped out due to the heavy winds predicted at 800 yards a 45-110 with .446 bullets and Seth Cole tracing paper, took the top honors, a 93-4X. Considering the field of shooters that it won against is testimony enough/

Kenny
Wasserburger