200gr .38 SPL data?

[336A]

I didn't want to hijack LouisianaMan's thread so I thought I would start my own thread. It appears that there is quite a bit of interest in this bullet weight for the .38 SPL of late. I've given it a thought a time or two and am now back to thinking about loading this bullet weight for my .38 SPL M10-14.

I've seen some of the older load data floating around for the Lyman #358430. However I really wonder if it is safe espsecially the MAX load for 2400 which is 9.5gr. Can anyone here elaborate on that particular load? If not is there a source of current data for this bullet weight around some where? I'm also wondering if any one can tell my how much higher POI will be from POA from a fixed sight M10 that shoots 158gr ammo to POA. Lastly I don't cast my own bullets where can i find .358 200gr bullets to purchase?

[Landric]

I've shot some of the 200 grain 358430/ 9.5 grains of 2400 combo. It actually feels pretty mild and doesn't show any pressure signs (though that is fairly meaningless at .38 Special pressures). Average velocity was just under 900 fps in a 4" gun and right at 800 fps in a 2" gun. I got basically the same performance with 6.9 grains of HS-6.

For a milder load, 4.3 grains of Trail Boss averaged about 675 fps for me from a 4" gun.

Point of impact is slightly higher than 158 grain bullets, but its not a huge difference in my experience.

[dubber123]

My 2005 Alliant suppliment lists 7.1 grains of 2400 as a +P loading with 200 grain boolits. Pressure listed as 17,500 Psi.

[Bucks Owin]

A 200 gr at 900 fps in the .38 Spl is pushing it IMO...

[danski26]

I found this data on the web. PLEASE VARIFY IT WITH THE LYMAN 43 MANUAL BEFORE USING. I have not used these loads or seen the Lyman manual they supposidly came from. At least it gives you a starting point. My Lyman #47 manual does not list a 200gr load.

Lyman 43
.38 Special, 200 gr. cast flat point bullet

Bullseye Max 2.7 gr., 720 fps.
SP230 (no longer available) - Max. 2.5 gr., 700 fps.
No. 6 (no longer availabe) - Max 2.8 gr., 705 fps.
5066 (may be available) - Max 3.0, 710 fps.
Unique - Max 4.0, 681 fps.

[danski26]

This data is supposed to be out of Lyman #45 for a 195 gr boolit. Again please check this data with the lyman #45. I have not used these loads or have i seen the manual.

Bullseye 2.0 - 530 - 2.7 Max - 658
Unique 3.0 - 572 - 4.1 Max - 772
2400 8.0 - 734 - 9.5 Max - 893
SR7625 3.0 - 478 - 3.8 Max - 675
SR4756 - 4.0 - 506 - 5.4 Max - 810
IMR4227 - 7.0 - 494 - 9.5 Max - 748

[9.3X62AL]

The Alliant data also lists 7.0 grains of 2400 as its top-end standard-pressure loading, giving 15,800 PSI. If the addition of 0.1 grain of powder adds only 20 FPS of velocity (870 vs. 890 FPS) but boosts pressures from 15.8K to 17.5K, I'm thinking that sort of kinkiness isn't to my tastes. At all. Such things were called "clues" at my old job site.

The Lyman #358430 has been splendidly accurate for me. Much of its usage has been in the 357 Magnum, less in the 38 Special--it did well in both calibers, spread among at least a dozen revolvers through the years. Keep in mind that standard-pressure 38 Special factory loads seldom exceeded 700 FPS with 200 grain boolits in real-world ballistics......f you can safely get to 800-825 FPS, you've gained a 20% momentum advantage over the "158 grain standard"--perhaps a bit more.

[LouisianaMan]

336A,

Lee 2nd lists 14 diffferent powders for .38 SPL with 200g lead bullet, plus another 3 for 195g lead bullet. Some more loads available in .38 SPL +P.

Let me know which powders you're thinking about, & I'll be glad to send you the Lee data. Interestingly, he doesn't list Win 231, which apparently was a long-time standard for this bullet weight @ 3.8g.

Listed:
ACCUR 7, 5, 2 (195g bullet)

200g below:
IMR 4227
BLUE DOT
H4227
HS6
HERCO
UNIQUE
IMR PB
BULLSEYE
SR7625
GREEN DOT
SR4756
IMR 700X
RED DOT
IMR 800X

[336A]

Thanks to all for the help. 9.3x62AL I fell the same way as you do, something ain't right there. LouisianaMan thanks for the awesome offer. I'm looking at data for Unique and 2400, thanks for the genorosity.

[LouisianaMan]

336A,

From Lee 2nd Ed, p.568

.38 Special, 200g lead bullet
Unique:

Start 3.4g 745fps Max 3.6g 780fps 15700 PSI COL 1.540
************************************************** *******

.38 Special +P, 200g lead bullet p. 573

HERC 2400

Start 6.6g 834fps Max 7.1g 890fps 17500 PSI COL 1.540

I haven't used 2400, so I personally don't even know if 2400 and HERC 2400 are the same powder. No doubt you know already, or can easily verify it. HTH.

[9.3X62AL]

"2400" was formerly made by Hercules Powder Company, and is now made by Alliant. There has been commentary that 2400 "changed" between makers, but in the many loadings I've used I haven't noticed a significant change. Of course, I'm not running most of those loads at "red line", either.

Regardless which 2400 you use, I would do the standard work-up.......10% less powder than listed max (7.1 - .71 = 6.4 grains), start there, and work up 0.2 grains at a time, to maximum.

[Beerd]

here is some older IMR data:

[robertbank]

I know I am waking up an old thread but information is timeless. I just acquired a 200 Gr Lyman mould and am working towards two objectives. I am looking for a very light load of around 550 fps for IDPA out of a 4.2" GP - 100 for SSR Division and a heavy load of 850 fps for ESR Division in IDPA using 38spl cases. I may have to go with .357Mag cases for the heavy load but would prefer to use 38spl cases as they are shorter and reloads are or can be marginally faster,

Right now I have PB, Titegroup, Clays, Universal Clays, 2400, 4227, Unique and 231 at ny disposal.

The objective here is to reduce felt recoil in the hopes of gaining some time on splits, Fools errand perhaps but I have the time.

Thoughts and loads if you have them.

Take Care

Bob

[DrCaveman]

Yo buddy. Nice score on that mold! ;)

I shot 7 gr of imr 4227 behind that one, got average of 526 fps. 38 spl case, standard primer. Ill bet around 7.5-7.8 would get what you are looking for. I didnt record which gun i shot it from but i think it was a 4" 357 mag.

Good shootin to ya.

[robertbank]

Yo buddy. Nice score on that mold! ;)

I shot 7 gr of imr 4227 behind that one, got average of 526 fps. 38 spl case, standard primer. Ill bet around 7.5-7.8 would get what you are looking for. I didnt record which gun i shot it from but i think it was a 4" 357 mag.

Good shootin to ya.

Gotta a heck of a deal from a guy down in Oregon. Got rid of a mold I hardly ever use foe one that has already cast 500 boolits with more coming. Gotta like it when a deal comes along like that.;)

Thanks for the load I will get some loaded and over a Chrony today. I figured a slow powder might do it. I should have got hold of you in the first place. If it works as it should then I will chase up a heavier load to make 170 PF (850 fps) and should be good to go for both divisions. 158's aren't bad at 105PF but get hurtful when you go to 170PF with .357mag on my old wrists.

Take Care

Bob

[Old Caster]

I know I am waking up an old thread but information is timeless. I just acquired a 200 Gr Lyman mould and am working towards two objectives. I am looking for a very light load of around 550 fps for IDPA out of a 4.2" GP - 100 for SSR Division and a heavy load of 850 fps for ESR Division in IDPA using 38spl cases. I may have to go with .357Mag cases for the heavy load but would prefer to use 38spl cases as they are shorter and reloads are or can be marginally faster,

Right now I have PB, Titegroup, Clays, Universal Clays, 2400, 4227, Unique and 231 at ny disposal.

The objective here is to reduce felt recoil in the hopes of gaining some time on splits, Fools errand perhaps but I have the time.

Thoughts and loads if you have them.

Take Care

Bob

Bob, For IDPA the 200 grain bullet works great. I used a 200 grain RCBS bullet that was for a 35 Remington rifle and they weighed around 217 out of the mold without the gas check. I used 231 but no longer remember how much. I remember them being around 550 as you mention and recoil was remarkably low. Everyone griped that I was gaming until we shot them over the chronograph and I was way higher in Power Factor than any of them were. I was using a Model 10 with a 4 inch barrel and had a hard time getting a 158 grain bullet to even make PF but with the 200, it is so easy that you might have to pass it up a bit just to make it reasonable.

[robertbank]

2.5 gr of 231 just makes PF. May bump to 2.6gr to have some comfort level. Recoil is very light. I use the same gin in ESR with 357Mag cases but will develop a load using the 200 gr boolit and 38spl cases using 4227. Looks like 9.4 gr should do it for 170PF with 7.3 gr making PF for IPSC minor.

Take Care

Bob

[robertbank]

Here is the result of my testing over the last couple of days. All loads shot over a F1 Chrony using a Ruger GP-100 with a 4.2" barrel using S&B Brass. Temperature was aroud 20C The object was to test different powders given none are available right now so at some point it will be down to third best choice. All loads were an attempt to meet one of the power factor minimums for either IDPA or IPSC revolver classes. The hope with this bullet was to reduce felt recoil by as much as possible by using a larger bullet and small powder charges. Recoil for the lighter loads was quite soft and less than that from 158 gr boolits at approx. the same PF.

I was pleasantly surprised at the results for Win231/HP38 and Unique. Both powders fulfill the needs for several calibers I shoot regularly. When powder is available I use them a lot. The powder is quite dirty compared to Clays for the 158 gr and dirtier than Universal with the 200 gr boolit. It does work well in my 125 gr 9MM boolit and I use a lot of it in that cartridge.

PB is a powder bought as a last resort due to the powder shortage. I find it dirty at the PF we shoot it at but beggers can't be choosers and the darn powder works well with this bullet as well as the 158.

I have not tried Clays, a powder of choice with the 158 gr bullets. I think the powder would be to fast for the 200 gr boolit in a 38spl case but I could be wrong. Has anyone here had any experience using Clays with a heavier boolit.

Universal burns very clean and I intend to play with that powder a bit more. May try 2.8 gr to see if I can move up in PF just a bit.

4227 leaves something to be desired even when loaded hot. I noted a lot of unburned powder. I may try applying more crimp to see if that helps. I may increase the heaviest load by a couple of tenths of a gr to give me a little more room for the IPSC Chronograph.



POW GR OAL PRIMER HIGH LOW EX SP AVG SD PF H PF A PF L


.38 Spl
IMR 4227
7.5
201
1.500
Tula
722
667
55
694
16
2.31%
145
139
134


.38 Spl
IMR 4227
9.2
201
1.500
Tula
845
782
63
812
17
2.09%
170
163
157


.38 Spl
IMR 4227
7.2
201
1.500
Tula
620
551
69
595
13
2.18%
125
120
111


.38 Spl
IMR 4227
9.5
201
1.500
Tula
838
801
37
822
11
1.34%
168
165
161


.38 Spl
PB
3
201
1.500
Tula
653
627
27
641
7
1.09%
131
129
126


.38 Spl
Titegroup
3
201
1.500
Tula
715
690
26
703
5
0.71%
144
141
139


.38 Spl
Unique
2.7
201
1.500
Tula
573
534
39
551
15
2.72%
115
111
107


.38 Spl
Universal
2.5
201
1.500
Tula
536
434
103
490
12
2.45%
108
98
87


.38 Spl
Universal
3
201
1.500
Tula
630
600
30
615
9
1.46%
127
124
121


.38 Spl
Universal
2.7
201
1.500
Tula
531
508
22
520
10
1.92%
107
105
102


.38 Spl
Win 231
2.5
201
1.500
Tula
573
514
59
541
12
2.22%
115
109
103


.38 Spl
Win 231
2.6
201
1.500
Tula
571
552
19
559
6
1.07%
115
112
111


The 9.2 amd 9.5 4227 loads listed above were shot in a Ruger GP-100 and are not recommended in lighter built K38 'smiths or similar .38spl revolvers. The 4227 loads in 357 Cases would be well under SAMMI maximums for the boolit.

Take Care

Bob

[Old Caster]

I think you can have clean or less perceived recoil. Two bullets of the same weight at the same velocity loaded with fast and slow powder have the exact same recoil but how they feel can be very different.

[robertbank]

I think you can have clean or less perceived recoil. Two bullets of the same weight at the same velocity loaded with fast and slow powder have the exact same recoil but how they feel can be very different.
Yup. The 165 PF load feels like more of a push as opposed to the 158gr boolit load I use in .357 cases to make the same PF. The light loads feel real light using the 200 gr boolit. Again more of a push than a snap.

Take Care

Bob

[Outpost75]

In a K-frame S&W .38 Special, I would not exceed 800 fps with a 200-grain bullet, and that is +P!

In my Marlin lever actions and Rugers I use 4 grs. of Bullseye for 850 fps in the 4-5/8" Blackhawk and 1000 fps i. The1894 Marlin. These are very accurate at 100 yards. 9 grs. Of #2400 gets about 900 in the revolver and 1080 inthe 18" Marlin, but is less accurate.

[jmort]

.38 Special - Part 2 (Lee Precision Data)




Warning! Notes: With NEVER EXCEED LOADS maintain Minimum Over All Length or longer. Small Pistol Primer. (MODERN RELOADING Second Edition - Richard Lee)
Be Alert: Publisher cannot be responsible for errors in published load data.
Wt. Bullet Powder Manufacturer Powder Charge Velocity (FPS)
200 Lead IMR IMR-4227 8.7 822
Remarks: start load; min. OAL: 1.500
200 Lead IMR IMR-4227 9.2 870
Remarks: NEVER EXCEED; 15,900 cup; min. OAL: 1.500
200 Lead Alliant Blue Dot 5.0 802
Remarks: start load; min. OAL: 1.540
200 Lead Alliant Blue Dot 5.3 850
Remarks: NEVER EXCEED; 16,000 psi; min. OAL: 1.540
200 Lead Hodgdon H-4227 8.0 773
Remarks: start load; min. OAL: 1.425
200 Lead Hodgdon H-4227 8.5 819
Remarks: NEVER EXCEED; 15,900 cup; min. OAL: 1.425
200 Lead Hodgdon HS-6 4.5 749
Remarks: start load; min. OAL: 1.425
200 Lead Hodgdon HS-6 5.0 794
Remarks: NEVER EXCEED; 15,900 cup; min. OAL: 1.425
200 Lead Alliant Herco 3.7 764
Remarks: start load; min. OAL: 1.540
200 Lead Alliant Herco 3.8 785
Remarks: NEVER EXCEED; 15,500 psi; min. OAL: 1.540
200 Lead Alliant Unique 3.4 745
Remarks: start load; min. OAL: 1.540
200 Lead Alliant Unique 3.6 780
Remarks: NEVER EXCEED; 15,700 psi; min. OAL: 1.540
200 Lead IMR PB 3.2 725
Remarks: start load; min. OAL: 1.500
200 Lead IMR PB 3.4 760
Remarks: NEVER EXCEED; 15,800 cup; min. OAL: 1.500
200 Lead Alliant Bullseye 3.0 753
Remarks: start load; min. OAL: 1.540
200 Lead Alliant Bullseye 3.0 760
Remarks: NEVER EXCEED; 15,100 psi; min. OAL: 1.540
200 Lead IMR SR-7625 3.3 720
Remarks: start load; min. OAL: 1.500
200 Lead IMR SR-7625 3.5 755
Remarks: NEVER EXCEED; 15,800 cup; min. OAL: 1.500
200 Lead Alliant Green Dot 3.0 729
Remarks: start load; min. OAL: 1.540
200 Lead Alliant Green Dot 3.1 750
Remarks: NEVER EXCEED; 15,500 psi; min. OAL: 1.540
200 Lead IMR SR-4756 4.1 705
Remarks: start load; min. OAL: 1.500
200 Lead IMR SR-4756 4.3 740
Remarks: NEVER EXCEED; 15,700 cup; min. OAL: 1.500
200 Lead IMR 700-X 3.0 725
Remarks: start load; min. OAL: 1.500
200 Lead IMR 700-X 3.0 725
Remarks: NEVER EXCEED; 15,000 cup; min. OAL: 1.500
200 Lead Alliant Red Dot 2.8 718
Remarks: start load; min. OAL: 1.540
200 Lead Alliant Red Dot 2.8 725
Remarks: NEVER EXCEED; 15,100 psi; min. OAL: 1.540
200 Lead IMR 800-X 4.4 704
Remarks: start load; min. OAL: 1.500
200 Lead IMR 800-X 4.6 725
Remarks: NEVER EXCEED; 15,500 cup; min. OAL: 1.500
�2011 PPC, INC. All Rights Reserved. LoadData is registered in the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office

[robertbank]

The loads I have been working on are used in a GP - 100 and a 686 'smith.

Outpost75 most of my work is for a light load for PF minimums of 105 for IDPA SSR Division, 125 for IPSC Revolver (Minor Scoring) and one for IDPA ESR Division 165. Your 4 gr of bullseye load would do it with some room to spare. I may try it and load the boolit out a little longer. The heavier load is not all that important to me as I will be shooting few of the loads. Outside of competition Wilderness Carry would be the only other use t=for the load.

I want to work a little more on the Universal Clays load. I am going to move up to 2.8 gr which should result in velocities close to or similar to Unique. While all loads are individually measured on my RCBS digital scale I would prefer a powder that flows well out of my Dillon powder measure freely at light loadings. Unique struggles in that regard, although I find once you get the measure set with Unique it works pretty well.

As far as a major load I may just have to settle on using 357 cases. They are longer and don't work quite as fast out of a Speedloader but for the few times I would shoot ESR/IPSC Major in revolver it probably will not matter. Getting to say 170pf using the 357 cases would not be a problem using 4227 or 2400. The latter is a little harder to come by around here.

The heavy 4227 loads left lots of unburned powder in the barrel and I may start again using Magnum primers to see if this helps. If not I will abandon the powder and move on to some other powder.

I have added a warning to my above post regarding the use of 4227 loads.

Take Care

Bob

[35remington]

robert, if you're using that light of a charge with Universal Clays, you had better try it with powder forward and powder rearward over the chronograph as a low velocity shot may disqualify you per minimum power factory. Either that or somehow "cheat" and position the powder rearward before firing. IF they let you do that over the chrono for qualification.

With positioning variations in the case......you may not like what you find with Universal Clays as I find it to be more position sensitive than many powders. Since a revolver is drawn from a holster and the powder may be near the bullet when fired, this should be investigated.

[robertbank]

35Remington All loads are shot after tipping the barrel up for testing. I have found even with powders that are not supposed to be position sensitive you can get a variance of 100 fps or more going from pistol up vs pistol down when doing testing. Good to know though and thanks for the heads up.

I know in competition circles there are two schools of thought on the chrono. The first is you draw from the holster so you should not tip the barrel up for chrono testing ammo at matches while the other is you should tip the barrel up for more consistent results and because we are not in the business of sending folks home. Using the latter method for everyone in my mind is the fairest method and provides more consistent results.

Back to Universal I find the powder is very clean shooting, similar to Clays, a real benefit when shooting matches. That said there are safety areas where you can go and brush out your revolver. Right now 231/HP38 is a powder I have lots of and certainly will work well based on the chrono results to date. It is dirty though compared to some powders I have used. The same thing can be said for Unique.

Readers should know getting any pistol powder up here right now is a challenge. A few months back I bought 4lbs of PB, a powder I would not normally use but beggers can't be choosers and it works reasonably well in the applications I use my guns for. Hopefully the powder shortage will end soon and supply matches demand.

Take Care

Bob

[robertbank]

robert, if you're using that light of a charge with Universal Clays, you had better try it with powder forward and powder rearward over the chronograph as a low velocity shot may disqualify you per minimum power factory. Either that or somehow "cheat" and position the powder rearward before firing. IF they let you do that over the chrono for qualification.

With positioning variations in the case......you may not like what you find with Universal Clays as I find it to be more position sensitive than many powders. Since a revolver is drawn from a holster and the powder may be near the bullet when fired, this should be investigated.

Took your comment to heart and found the powder to be position sensitive as you pointed out. I am going to do some blind testing with a friend of mine to see if the difference in perceived recoil is significant enough to pursue or just stick to my 160 grain bullet for competition in SSR and use the bullet for .357 mag loads for ESR and go for 165+ PF. It's been fun though. A small benefit arising from the powder shortage.:grin:

Take Care

Bob

[smkummer]

I have shot that load of 9.5 grains 2400 and lyman 195 grain bullet in medium frame Colts such as the official police, officer model match and a 38 trooper. I didn't chronograph it but it knocked down the metal plates like a 40S&W and the 4 in. guns have more recoil with this bullet than a 158. The bullet almost comes out of the cylinder when crimped in the crimping groove and is intimidating from the business end. I also knew the Lyman 45th edition does not conform to SAMMI specs. so I would not try this in an aluminum frame cobra. Right now I have no need for it, so I only have one box of 50 loaded but more testing is needed.

[MT Gianni]

Castpics, load data and Lyman 44 has plenty of free data for the 358430.

[robertbank]

Tomorrow I am going to run 9.5 gr of 4227 with magnum primers and see if I can free up some bottom end room. With an avg of 165 there is no room for light loads over the match Chrono. I need to avg 170 PF. It should be doable. These are match loads used in 357mag guns. I would NOT attempt these loads in any 38spl guns. I should add these loads are being shot in 38spl cases.

Take Care

Bob

[robertbank]

Castpics, load data and Lyman 44 has plenty of free data for the 358430.

Thanks for the info.

Just downloaded the manual. Great! I see 9.5 gr of 4227 is shown as mz for 38spl so I feel better. I don't need much more than that to make my target Major Load. If Magnum Primers doesn't boost the load up a notch U may add tenth of a grain.

I do have a very soft shooting 110pf load for IDPA so half the equation is completed.

Take Care

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

Bob, a thought occurred to me along these lines. I understand the rationale for using the 38 Special casing in place of the 357 Magnum casing--to have a shorter ejection stroke. But this shark bites in two directions.......what about stickier extraction with the charged-up 38 loads, versus ease of extraction with 357 cases run at half the caliber's pressure gradient?

[robertbank]

Hi Al

After Mt.Gianni posted the reference to Lyman's manual #44 I scurried off to my collection of old reference books and there were the loads for the 200 grainer. The 9.5 gr of 4227 is on the edge of what I need for PF. When I ran my tests with it there was un-burned kernels of powder in the barrel and around the crane after 12 rds. While the primers were flattened slightly I did not experience any extraction problems....yet.

Knowing Lyman is not going to publish a load that is over SAMMI specs and also knowing pressure rises are not linear the question is do you go over the recommended maximum to achieve the velocity you want to get to and by what method? Given the gun is chambered for the .357mag round I am thinking a few tenths of a grain or the use of magnum primers is not likely going to triple the pressure levels. Both will likely increase the pressure though and should result in slightly higher velocities.

As you point out though, if all that is achieved is say a 170 pf but with sticky cases the whole exercise is for naught. Playing a game where scores are converted to time is the defining reason that I am where I am and I have to remind myself of that.

If I switch to .357 cases, the advantage is I can reach my velocity requirement with ease. Clearing the cases in the heat of competition might take longer and the longer cases as you know might take longer to align and insert with speedloaders. (Note to self I am pretty inept as it is using 38spl cases).

I should know later this afternoon what affect the hotter primers have on a 9.5 gr load of 4227. If no change in velocity I might go up a few tenths. If extraction becomes sticky I'll end the quest and work on a .357mag load. Four of us up here play IDPA with our revolvers using the GP-100 or the Smith 686 and all reload. So there is some interest in how this will play out.

Good thoughts from you Al, don't be surprised if you get a few phone calls as this project proceeds.

Take Care

Bob

[robertbank]

Well there is happiness in Bob's house. I used 9.5 gr of 4227, Win Mag Primers, 39spl cases, 201 gr Lyman boolit and managed an avg PF of 169 with a low of 165 and a high of 173. Perfect! The magnum primers made the difference. I experienced no sticky cases, in fact the primers, though flattened more than the lighter loads did not show any significant signs of over pressure. The load is right at the max reported in the Lyman manual. I won't use this load a lot unless I want to compete in ESR Division for IDPA. I am not ready to shoot revolver in IPSC.:bigsmyl2:

I did try increasing the load to 9.7 gr of 4227 and there was no appreciable increase in velocity which is a nice way of saying there was no increase from the 9,5 gr when using regular primers. As I said the Major load will not be used often so I am calling it good to go with this boolit combo.

I should report we also did some recoil testing using a blind test with one of my buddies assisting. Conclusion??? Well at 110 pf neither of us could discern any difference in felt recoil using either the 160 gr RN or the 201 gr RN when shot at a PF of 110. We tried several different blind tests with the same result. What we did note was a difference in muzzle rise. The 200 gr boolit shot with LESS muzzle rise than the lighter 168 boolit. From that we have decided the heavier boolit is worth pursuing for matches as less muzzle rise should over the course of the match result in faster target acquisitions and transitions. On our hands the difference in rise was estimated to be about 2" but that is using eye sight with no replays. For matches the heavier boolit gets the nod and for practice the lighter 169 gr boolit.

My next move will be away from the competition sports and see what the boolit will do in my Rossi using 357 Mag cases. The fun never ends,

Take Care

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

Well, COOL. I'm glad those warmed-up 38s didn't get sticky in the charge holes. I never had a question about revolver strength when 686s and GP-100s are getting run with warm 38s.

[robertbank]

Went out today and tested some of my light IDPA loads using the 200gr boolit. Recoil was light and the boolits just cut a large hole at 15 yards. Good enough for anything I have to do with the gun. Next week it will be the Rossi and 357mag brass.

Take Care

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

Recoil was light and the boolits just cut a large hole at 15 yards.

Were they unstable in flight/wobbling through the target? Or just tearing ragged RN holes? At 600-700 FPS, I've not seen the Lyman #358430 go unstable in Colt (1-16"), S&W (1-18.75") or Ruger (1-20") twist rates.

[robertbank]

Were they unstable in flight/wobbling through the target? Or just tearing ragged RN holes? At 600-700 FPS, I've not seen the Lyman #358430 go unstable in Colt (1-16"), S&W (1-18.75") or Ruger (1-20") twist rates.

No they were nice clean holes. I was pleasantly surprised though you had mentioned you felt they would be stable so I should not have been. Yesterday was funny, I was practicing my reloads that do need a lot of work so after about 50 draws and firings I was getting a bit tired so I spent some time mining the sand berm then went back to shooting. I went from the 160 gr RN RCBS boolit ar 110PF to my heavier 200 gr boolit at the same PF and immediately noticed a lighter recoil, more of a longer push. Odd since I had not noticed the change the day before. Felt good!

One other thing I noticed is the boolit impact at 15 yards for both was virtually the same with any variance I would blame on my less than steller eys, well maybe Wyatt Earp, I am not. :-o

All good in any event. Will be back to work later to day on my reloads. I load one live round and five empties and time the draw, the reload and fire a shot to mark the reload on the timer. In terms of time the draw good or bad varies less than half a second. The reload though can vary 1.5 seconds. Not much doubt where I have to improve. Right now I am around 4 seconds. When I am smooth I get it down to 3.5 seconds and when things go sideways up to 5 seconds.:oops: Jerry M has no worries for the moment and time is not on my side. :|

Take Care

Bob

[Groo]

Groo here
If you pick the correct boolet [like the penn 230gr with 2 crimp grooves] you can load to 357 length
using 38spec cases and use the loading data for 357.
Shoots as a 357, unloads like a 38.
The FBI used this method when using snub 357's with short ejector rods, 357loads put up in 38 cases.

[robertbank]

Interesting. Makes sense. The case volume with the boolit loaded that way would be the same as the case volume for the 357 mag. For playing the game with speedloaders shortest OAL works best as it makes the reload a little easier hence my search for a 165+PF load using the shorter cases. I have some friends here who are short on 357MAG cases and they like to shoot .357 loads.

Take care

Bob

[DeanWinchester]

I'm tagging this one for future reference. I have been wanting to try something for a while.
RCBS 35-200 boolit in a .38 special case for my best friends .357 mag lever gun.

[robertbank]

Dean I'll post any loads I work up using .357Mag cases.

Bob

[DeanWinchester]

Cool, thanks.

I won't be able to use .357 cases with the RCBS 35-200. Even in a .38 case, seated to the crimp groove it's about .090 over max length for a .357 mag. I'm going over to his house tonight with some dummy cartridges to see if it'll still cycle. Won't know till you try. Some levers are more forgiving than others when it comes to OAL.

[DeanWinchester]

It works! Seated deep into the crimp groove it cycles his lever gun just fine. Seated shallow on the crimp groove tends to hang a bit. I'm tempted to seat a little deeper and slap a taper crimp on that puppy.
We stuck on in his GP100 and the nose of the boolit is almost flush with the edge of the cylinder. We're gonna try some in his pistol too!

[robertbank]

Well I loaded the Lyman 358430 201 gr bullet in .357mag cases with 5.5 gr of Unique under them and fired with a Win SPMag primer.

Here are the results of 10 rounds fired over my F1 Chrony. Temp was 21C

Cases: Mixed

OAL 1.615"

High 962fps
Low 937fps
Avg 952fps
SD 7fps
Ext. Spread 26fps
Avg PF 191

Recoil was almost identical to shooting 200 gr boolits out of my 1911 at the same PF. Compared with my loads using 158 gr boolits the recoil was less snappy and more of a push with much less muzzle rise.

I am not a target shooter but the load certainly seemed to be accurate enough out to 25 yards. At 15 yards the hole just got a bit bigger with every other shot from a rest.

Take Care

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

Those #358430s can REALLY shoot. Those velocity ratings are right fine, too. Single-digit SDs are nothing to sneeze at, and sub-1% in the bargain. GOOD LOAD.

[robertbank]

OK I went to the range today with .37cases loaded with 5.3 gr of Unique. The only bad news was I discovered I had loaded the rounds to long for them to cycle in my Rossi. Stupid here, didn't check before leaving the house so all rounds tested had to be loaded one at a time from the breach. Well that isn't the dumbest thing I have done in my life and with that little misadventure aside here are the results.

5.3 Gr Unique
Cases R&P Nickle Brass
OAL 1.630 (Should have been 1.590 to cycle in my Rossi)
High Vel 1089
Low Vel 1063
EXT Sp 26 fps
SD 8!

I never did any accuracy tests other than to go at a plate at 50 yards ding ding ding and out to 100 yards bullet drop was noted. One thing I have noted shooting at plates and poppers with this boolit was, it has energy behind it, and logic tells me it has killing power. Not that this is a factor. For me living in "Canada the Good" hunting is not allowed using a handgun BUT for Black Bear protection loaded a little heavier this old boolit will do very nicely if .357mag revolver is what you have on your hip.

Take Care

Bob
ps Temperature was in the high 90's and hotter down at the range. I will do some accuracy tests once it cools down a bit using the Rossi.

[9.3X62AL]

I've been running #358430 for 30+ years, and whether at 700 FPS from the Webley 38/200 or at 1350 FPS from my BisHawk--there is some definite thumpus maximus getting transmitted by those heavy-for-caliber slugs.

[robertbank]

Well next week-end I have an IPSC Qualifier and Steel Match to attend. I decided to risk ridicule and shoot IPSC with my GP -100 using minor loadings of 3gr of PB under my 200 gr boolits loaded in 38spl cases. Should be fun. I have 9 speedloaders ready to go. Can you imagine....

In any event should be a boatload of fun. The following week we are shooting a postal match and I have to switch to a bottom feeder as I have already shot the IDPA match with my revolver. Ah to be inept in many disciplines. Age has it's advantages.....no ego to worry about.

Take Care

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

Inept......hardly.

Lyman #358430 was impressive from Day 1 for its intrinsic accuracy. This wasn't and isn't a fluke, its accuracy has "held" through dozens of 38 S&W--38 Special--and 357 Magnum revolvers over the many years I have cast with the mould. If the design has a "flaw" in the scope of modern thinking, it would be its dome-shaped meplat/point. Such a design is not thought to transmit shock or cavity crush as efficiently as the flatnose or SWC form, and there may be some truth to that. My solution to that issue has been to cast 20 of these bullets as soft points per the BruceB Method, in hopes of inducing some expansion in game or vermin. At slower velocities, #358430 shows pretty reliable tendency to tumble after critter contact. At Magnum speeds (1000 FPS+) the bullets seem to drive right through, and the quarry gets anchored humanely (jackrabbits, mainly) despite the bullet's less-than-ideal nose form.

[MT Gianni]

Al, i have bumped a flat nose on mine with no degrading of accuracy. I have yet to see them hit anything but paper.

[robertbank]

Funny thing about killing power Al. I know of no animal, human or otherwise that runs around long with a bullet hole through their lungs, pelvis or brain no matter how that is achieved. Lots of theory conducted on gelatin blocks on how jacketed bullets do so much more damage but round lead balls did a number on our General Brock back in the day and I suspect the modern day version in the form of a 358430 would be just as effective. I know it works well on IDPA/IPSC targets and steel plates. :mrgreen: Off to the ranger to sight in my 686 I use as back up to my GP 100.

Take Care

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

Interior ballistics and exterior ballistics are hard, exact sciences--terminal ballistics is at best a poorly-understood art form in cahoots with wishful thinking and hopeful marketing. I am NOT a member-in-good-standing of the Facklerite Fraternity......nor am I an enthusiastic Jello Shooter. I do think bullets have improved substantially over the years I have been involved in the shooting sports, but The Magic Bullet for small arms has not yet been birthed--and may never be. For game-taking and self-protection, it is difficult to find a better, simpler, and more reliable projectile than an accurately-placed soft lead bullet.

[Love Life]

Holes kill stuff.

[9.3X62AL]

Holes kill stuff.

Yes. And bigger holes kill stuff better/faster. This bit of common sense rang true for illiterate mountain men, and remained constant for centuries until people in lab coats or suit coats that don't get shot at much took charge of the caliber assignments and issuances. Modern thought dictates that those with the least likelihood of requiring the defensive tools have the greatest input on their selection and description.

[Love Life]

True, but you can shoot a person more than once.

[9.3X62AL]

Yes, and the small-bore service calibers that predominate lately certainly incentivize that approach.

"Deputy/corporal--why did you shoot the assailant 16 times?"

"The slide/bolt locked back."

[Love Life]

I plead the fiz'ith

[Fordfan485]

Worked up some loads with 4227 and magnus 200gr 38 special bullets and my 4" 686 SSR. I wasn't thrilled with the results , not sure how much temperature played a factor (was 28 degrees today). Guess I will have to go to magnum cases. OAL was set at 1.50 but it varied alot probably due to using mixed brass and using the round nose seater stem in my dillon die (these bullets are round nose flatpoint)



Date
Qty
Caliber
Bullet Weight
Brand
Style
Bul Lot #
Powder Charge
Powder
Powder Lot #
OAL
Primer
Primer Lot #
Case Brand
Times Fired
Case Length
Avg Velocity
Max PF
Avg PF
Min PF
std dev (sample)
extreme spread


1/26/2015
10
38
200
Magnus
LRN
N/A
7.240
IMR 4227
1060214 4496
1.495-1.505
WSPM
GGL 397G
Mixed
1
n/a
506.5
109
101
97
19.03
60


1/26/2015
5
38
200
Magnus
LRN
N/A
7.632
IMR 4227
1060214 4496
1.495-1.505
WSPM
GGL 397G
Mixed
1
n/a
567
117
113
110
16.08
37


1/26/2015
5
38
200
Magnus
LRN
N/A
8.000
IMR 4227
1060214 4496
1.495-1.505
WSPM
GGL 397G
Mixed
1
n/a
621.2
132
124
117
33.80
73


1/26/2015
5
38
200
Magnus
LRN
N/A
8.392
IMR 4227
1060214 4496
1.495-1.505
WSPM
GGL 397G
Mixed
1
n/a
641.8
138
128
122
31.73
83


1/26/2015
5
38
200
Magnus
LRN
N/A
8.880
IMR 4227
1060214 4496
1.495-1.505
WSPM
GGL 397G
Mixed
1
n/a
693.4
147
138
134
26.20
65


1/27/2015
5
38
200
Magnus
LRN
N/A
9.184
IMR 4227
1060214 4496
1.495-1.505
WSPM
GGL 397G
Mixed
1
n/a
691.6667
140
138
134
18.01
33


1/27/2015
5
38
200
Magnus
LRN
N/A
9.430
IMR 4227
1060214 4496
1.495-1.505
WSPM
GGL 397G
Mixed
1
n/a
720
151
144
133
41.41
88


1/27/2015
5
38
200
Magnus
LRN
N/A
9.552
IMR 4227
1060214 4496
1.495-1.505
WSPM
GGL 397G
Mixed
1
n/a
749.8
153
149
147
10.76
29


1/27/2015
5
38
200
Magnus
LRN
N/A
9.692
IMR 4227
1060214 4496
1.495-1.505
WSPM
GGL 397G
Mixed
1
n/a
770
161
154
147
27.24
74

[9.3X62AL]

700-725 FPS is the general velocity neighborhood that 200 grainers in 38 Special play within. That isn't world-class earth-shattering velocity, but compare the THUMP a 200 grain bullet makes at that speed with that made by a 150 grain on a steel plate in 38 S&W, and there is evidence that some property of inertia and motion is operating with the heavier slug that is decidedly diminished with the bullet weighing 75% as much. I'm sure as hell NOT ABOUT to stand downrange and try fielding these slow-movers with a baseball glove.

[robertbank]

I went to 9.5 gr of 4227 under my Lyman bullet and achieved 822fps to get to 164 PF using 38spl cases in my Ruger GP-100. Recoil was relatively mild with no signs of excessive pressure. Lyman`s 45 Edition Reloading Handbook Maximum listed load.

John Goins published 4.5 gr Unique to get to 825fps using the same bullet.

I intend to work up a load to 800 fps for IDPA ESR using the bullet. Recoil should be relatively mild with good accuracy.

Take Care

Bob

Take Care

Bob

[Fordfan485]

Used my 7.6gr of 4227 with WSPM primers for a IDPA classifier yesterday. Couldn't go more than 12 rounds without unburnt powder getting caught under the ejector and causing the cylinder not to close and or rounds not to chamber all the way. It was a major headache and pain in the ***. However I loved how it shot and the accuracy was good. I'm thinking of only using this powder for 357 magnum loads now and not for competition other than pin shooting.

[9.3X62AL]

485--

I can't recall having used either of the 4227s in 38 Special in the past. I have used in Magnum revolvers to some extent, and haven't had issues with unburnt powder granules getting under the extractor star. Such a thing IS a monumental PITA under time-pressure of any kind, for certain.

[Oyeboten]

Okay, well, if no one minds me breathing a little Life back in to this thread..!

The 200 Grain RNL was of course the "Super Police" round, back when.

I'd be curious to know when did it appear?

Was the 195 or 200 Grain Bullet used in any of the "38-44 Heavy Duty" Factory Loadings of the 1930s, 1940s?

I just Cast a bunch of them from my old LYMAN 358 430 Mold, and I am hoping to work up a friendly Load for use in a 1934 S & W "Heavy Duty" Revolver...I read through to here, but no one seems to have had the 1930s .38 Special S&W N Frame, or Colt New Service in mind.

[robertbank]

I'll defer to 9.62x62Al he has had more experience than I with the bullet. Here are a few loads I worked up in my 4.2" GP=100.
High Low ES AVG SD
.38 Spl PB 3 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Tula 653 627 27 641 7

.38 Spl Unique 2.7 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Tula 573 534 39 551 15
.38 Spl Unique 3.7 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Tula 770 735 35 749 7
.38 Spl Unique 3.7 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Tula 767 739 28 751 7

.38 Spl Win 231 2.6 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Tula 571 552 19 559 6
.38 Spl Win 231 2.6 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Fed 591 537 54 565 16

.38 Spl***** IMR 4227 9.5 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Win Mag 861 820 41 839 12
.38 Spl***** IMR 4227 9.5 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.485 Win Mag 847 817 30 831 8
.38 Spl IMR 4227 7.2 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Tula 620 551 69 595 13
.38 Spl IMR 4227 7.5 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Tula 722 667 55 694 16
.38 Spl IMR 4227 9.2 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Tula 845 782 63 812 17
.38 Spl IMR 4227 9.5 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Tula 838 801 37 822 11
.38 Spl IMR 4227 9.7 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Fed 845 801 44 815 16

.357 Mag Unique 5 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.615 Win Mag 912 841 71 888 19
.357 Mag Unique 5.3 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.615 Win Mag 945 911 34 927 8
.357 Mag Unique 5.5 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.615 Win Mag 962 937 26 952 7
.357 Mag Unique 6 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.615 Win Mag 1086 1049 37 1067 10
.357 Mag Unique 6 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.615 Win Mag 1057 1012 45 1031 8


Loads represent 10 rounds over F1 Chrony at 5 yards
ES - Extreme Spread
SD - Standard Deviation

Take Care

Bob
ps Formatting from my spreadsheet leaves a lot to be desired. If you have any questions PM your email address and I can send you the spreadsheet.

[Oyeboten]

I'll defer to 9.62x62Al he has had more experience than I with the bullet. Here are a few loads I worked up in my 4.2" GP=100.
High Low ES AVG SD
.38 Spl PB 3 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Tula 653 627 27 641 7

.38 Spl Unique 2.7 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Tula 573 534 39 551 15
.38 Spl Unique 3.7 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Tula 770 735 35 749 7
.38 Spl Unique 3.7 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Tula 767 739 28 751 7

.38 Spl Win 231 2.6 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Tula 571 552 19 559 6
.38 Spl Win 231 2.6 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Fed 591 537 54 565 16

.38 Spl***** IMR 4227 9.5 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Win Mag 861 820 41 839 12
.38 Spl***** IMR 4227 9.5 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.485 Win Mag 847 817 30 831 8
.38 Spl IMR 4227 7.2 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Tula 620 551 69 595 13
.38 Spl IMR 4227 7.5 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Tula 722 667 55 694 16
.38 Spl IMR 4227 9.2 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Tula 845 782 63 812 17
.38 Spl IMR 4227 9.5 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Tula 838 801 37 822 11
.38 Spl IMR 4227 9.7 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Fed 845 801 44 815 16

.357 Mag Unique 5 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.615 Win Mag 912 841 71 888 19
.357 Mag Unique 5.3 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.615 Win Mag 945 911 34 927 8
.357 Mag Unique 5.5 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.615 Win Mag 962 937 26 952 7
.357 Mag Unique 6 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.615 Win Mag 1086 1049 37 1067 10
.357 Mag Unique 6 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.615 Win Mag 1057 1012 45 1031 8


Loads represent 10 rounds over F1 Chrony at 5 yards
ES - Extreme Spread
SD - Standard Deviation

Take Care

Bob
ps Formatting from my spreadsheet leaves a lot to be desired. If you have any questions PM your email address and I can send you the spreadsheet.

Nice work!

Thank you Bob..!

I'll meditate a while on all this, being as I have a 6 inch Colt 'Army Special', and also my 5 inch S & W N-Frame "Heavy Duty", so, these two would be the ones, for possibly each their own loading of this Bullet.

I do not intend to go faster than "in the low 8s", so...should be no strain or worries for those two.

And too, the 195 or 200 Grain RNL would likely be an agreeable Black Powder Round as well, so, I'll load up some of those also, and see what they do in .38 Special "BP'.

[robertbank]

Nice work!

Thank you Bob..!

I'll meditate a while on all this, being as I have a 6 inch Colt 'Army Special', and also my 5 inch S & W N-Frame "Heavy Duty", so, these two would be the ones, for possibly each their own loading of this Bullet.

I do not intend to go faster than "in the low 8s", so...should be no strain or worries for those two.

And too, the 195 or 200 Grain RNL would likely be an agreeable Black Powder Round as well, so, I'll load up some of those also, and see what they do in .38 Special "BP'.

You might want to think on that. The bullet does take up quite a bit of space in the case. You may not be able to get much BP in the case to do much more than push the bullet out the barrel. I have no experience in this area and have only just begun to shoot a New Army Remington in 44 caliber. Just thinking about how little room you are going to have for BP after the bullet is seated.

Take Care

Bob

[Oyeboten]

You might want to think on that. The bullet does take up quite a bit of space in the case. You may not be able to get much BP in the case to do much more than push the bullet out the barrel. I have no experience in this area and have only just begun to shoot a New Army Remington in 44 caliber. Just thinking about how little room you are going to have for BP after the bullet is seated.

Take Care

Bob

Good observation!

I'll see..!

I think with Balloon Head Cases, and good compression, and holding the Boolit out about 3/32nds farther than normal, I can maybe get in about 20 Grains of 3 F Swiss.

I'll find out for sure soon...just realized though, I need to get some Loading dies!

Last .38 Special I loaded up was about four years ago, and all I had then was my Lyman Tru-Line Junior and it's 310 style Dies, and I set all that aside ( and out of reach now ) to favor a Lyman All American Press which takes the usual "fat" Dies...so, off to ebay with me now, to get some fat .38 Special Loading Dies.

I found that with good compression, using the fairly light duty Tru-Line Junior Press, I would get the original 21-1/2 Grains of 3F, under a usual 158 RNL Bullet, in modern thick Head .38 Special Brass, just fine...but I prefer the older roomier Balloon Head Brass with BP, and then not quite so much compression needed for Standard Loadings.

[robertbank]

The 200 gr Lyman bullet is a long sucker. I will be interested to see how you make out. I would be marking those balloon head cases for certain. I just eye balled a bullet/case when loaded to the crimp grove and you got a 5/8th + inch to work with so you might get 20 grains in. Good luck.

Take Care

Bob

[Oyeboten]

I'll report back later this evening with pictures..!

Got some .38 Special Dies this morning at my LGS...yeahhh!

[45DUDE]

I have a Bill Davis 681 and a Lymam 200 grain mold and out of the LEE Hardback book with a starting load of 2400 using 200 grain data for 38 special it is very accurate. This boolit is too long for a model 27 but you can seat it deeper. I use it in my 19-3 also on the low side.<My wife has had 7 kids since this thread started>[smilie=s:

[MikeP]

I'm a longtime fan of the heavy-for-caliber 200gr boolit in the 38 Special. So, 15 or so years ago I did a bit of testing of that boolit in my then-new 357 Ruger 101 with a 2.25" barrel that I had just bought for conceal carry.

The load I settled on is 2.82gr of Red Dot, because I wanted a fast-burning powder to achieve maximum efficiency without leaving unburned powder in the shorty barrel. My Chrony shows 567fps with this load in 38 Special cases. That has given me good accuracy, mild recoil and effective target disruption.

I use a Lyman 358430 mold when casting my own, but also use 200 grainers of the same design from commercial casters as well. I crimp at the first groove, which results in a longer-than-standard 1.85" OAL. This extra length has proven to be much easier to use with a speed-loader for me, since the bullets seem to just fall into the cylinder ports in an almost self-guided fashion. Also, those big lead boolits protrude to the end of the cylinders and fill the holes up quite adequately, to the point that they are easily seen from the business end, like guided ICBMs in their silos. I don't know about anybody else, but there's something intimidating to see all those boolits pointed right at me when I point the loaded gun at the image in the mirror.

Some smaller 38 Special revolvers might not take a loaded cartridge that long. My 357 Ruger 101 does. Goodie.

Tested in wet, bound newspaper, the bullet penetrates about 5 inches, and at the end of its travel it is sideways. The last two or three inches show a lot of newspaper tissue disruption from this tumble effect. For a self-defense load, this unstable boolit behavior should limit excess penetration in typical self-defense situations, yet offer the type of effect that will stop a threat.

My goal with this big boolit in the 38 Special was to emulate the British 38/200 in a short revolver that is easily concealable. I'm satisfied that I've achieved that in my little hammerless, double-action 2.25" 101.

At least, it works for me that way.

[robertbank]

I have a Bill Davis 681 and a Lymam 200 grain mold and out of the LEE Hardback book with a starting load of 2400 using 200 grain data for 38 special it is very accurate. This boolit is too long for a model 27 but you can seat it deeper. I use it in my 19-3 also on the low side.<My wife has had 7 kids since this thread started>[smilie=s:You devil you! Way to much information but congrats.

Take Care

Bob

[robertbank]

MikeP have someone powder coat a few of those bullets red. That would scare the bejesus out of anyone close enough to want to know what was in the gun. I alternated red and green bullets in my GP-100 and it was awesome to look at.

Take Care

Bob

[VICIOUS]

OLD but good. Those long bullets like the MICRO-grove rifleing of Marlin carbines and 2400 powder.

[smkummer]

OLD but good. Those long bullets like the MICRO-grove rifleing of Marlin carbines and 2400 powder.

You hit the nail on the head. I see I responded to this back in 2014 when I just fired it in my revolvers. Since then, I bought a micro groove Marlin 1894 357. Which just love the 38 case and 9.5 grains 2400. Since now my 2400 is getting a little short these days, I switched to unique and a 357 case. I also discovered that I can’t size this bullet to .358, I have to leave it a bit fat unsized and water quenched for my micro groove Marlin. I like shooting metal plates at my range and the 195 grain bullet makes a “clang” sound over a “ting” sound of a 158 grain.

[Outpost75]

Some recent chronograph data for 158 LRN and 200-grain .38 Special factory loads and hand loads with the NOE 363-204RN clone of the British 380-200 Mk1 service bullet, fired from 1964 Colt Official Police former NYPD issue, authenticated by Colt factory letter, maintained by factory-trained armorer during annual requals, with 4-inch barrel and 0.005" barrel-cylinder gap. Ammunition tested came from the estate of a retired NYPD detective and Vietnam vet. Mentor and teacher.

Rem-UMC 158 LRN Police Service WW2 era. 764 fps, 32 ES, 9 SD

Rem-UMC 158 FMJ Steel Jacket, WW2 era 798 fps, 84 ES, 22 SD

Rem-UMC 200 LRN Police Service, WW2 era 684 fps, 21 ES, 8 SD

Western 200 Super Police Lubaloy, WW2 era 676 fps, 22ES, 6 SD

WRA 158 LRN WW2 era, 792 fps, 42 ES, 15 SD

WCC60 XM174 158 FMJ, 779 fps, 58 ES, 19 Sd

NOE 363-204RN, COWW sized .358, Rem-UMC case, Rem 1-1/2, 3.3 grs 452AA, OAL 1.55" 665 fps, 47 ES, 21 SD

NOE 363-204RN as above, 3.1 grs. Bullseye , 676 fps, 35 ES, 11Sd

NOE 363-204RN, Rem-UMC case, Rem 1-1/2, 3.3 grs. Bullseye 706 fps, 51 ES, 19 SD
Above should not be exceeded except cautiously in revolvers rated for .38 Special +P or .357 ammunition. Your mileage may vary.

[Walks]

I'm interested in those Unique loads for the .38Spl case. I have a bunch of #358430 to try in a Colt OP 6" made in the late 1950's.

[smkummer]

I'm interested in those Unique loads for the .38Spl case. I have a bunch of #358430 to try in a Colt OP 6" made in the late 1950's.

You have an excellent gun for 358430-195 grain. That’s what I originally loaded the 9.5 grains 2400 for. I have both a army special 6” and colt official police MKIII with a 6” barrel. Plus several officers models.

Somewhere I read that the 200 grain 38 special was introduced when the 41 colt (200 grain) was dropped. So replication the 700-730 fps would approximate the performance of the old 41 long colt of which I load as well.

[pakmc]

I got my Accurate bullet mold in the other day and poured and powdered coated a long SWC for my .38. ok, actually my .38 is a model 28 smith. the bullet, with powder coat weights 220gr.'s. 2.5 gr's of HP-38 is a very light load. 3.6 gr's of unique is a fairly mild load, 5 gr's of HS-6 I fairly mild. the only reason I tried HS-6 is because I 've got about 6 lb.s of it and it's too dirty to shoot in any thing else. But 5 gr's is a pretty good load and pretty clean shooting. I'll be trying 5.3 gr's , and 4.7 gr's also just to check for how dirtyi they can be. I believe the bullet is about 7/8 inch long.

[Kosh75287]

Nothing wrong with the 195 gr. Lyman, but I was thinking it'd be nice to find a mold that would cast a projectile similar in shape to what was used in the old Enfield .38-200 rounds, that was tail-heavy and tended to yaw on impact. No doubt out of place on an IDPA range, but with the extra "oomph" afforded by a .38 Special, it could add a new index of fight-stopping capability to snubbies and K-frames.

[Outpost75]

Nothing wrong with the 195 gr. Lyman, but I was thinking it'd be nice to find a mold that would cast a projectile similar in shape to what was used in the old Enfield .38-200 rounds, that was tail-heavy and tended to yaw on impact. No doubt out of place on an IDPA range, but with the extra "oomph" afforded by a .38 Special, it could add a new index of fight-stopping capability to snubbies and K-frames.

NOE clone of British Mk1 service bullet is what you want. I ordered the .363-204RN because I wanted to feed a Webley & Scott Mk4 and two Victory S&Ws. It tolerates being sized to .358 for the .38 Specials, but you can also order the mold in smaller .360 or .358 diameters.

[Good Cheer]

I had always thought the 195 grainer would be a great excuse for a yawning wide "manstopper" style hollow point approaching the geometry of a HPWC. But then I experimented with HPWC's and decided that 195 was too heavy to get the velocity for reliable expansion except with .357Magnum level loading. But, hey, convert it to a HPWC and you'd shed some weight so yeah, it would be just right. Could surely be better than how reversing #358395 turned out.

[pettypace]

I had always thought the 195 grainer would be a great excuse for a yawning wide "manstopper" style hollow point approaching the geometry of a HPWC. But then I experimented with HPWC's and decided that 195 was too heavy to get the velocity for reliable expansion except with .357Magnum level loading. But, hey, convert it to a HPWC and you'd shed some weight so yeah, it would be just right. Could surely be better than how reversing #358395 turned out.


Good Cheer -- I'm thinking the same thing. Maybe we need a fresh thread -- something like Bullet Expansion at "Leisurely" Velocities (https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?440485-Bullet-Expansion-at-quot-Leisurely-quot-Velocities&p=5377317#post5377317).

[Good Cheer]

Oh my, you've given me an idea.
#358430 could be given a Shai Hulud style hollow point. And with a shorter flat plug in the same hole you'd have heavier WFN plain base rifle boolits.

[pettypace]

Oh my, you've given me an idea.
#358430 could be given a Shai Hulud style hollow point. And with a shorter flat plug in the same hole you'd have heavier WFN plain base rifle boolits.

Never heard of Shai Hulud hollow points, but I think the .38 snubby has the most to gain from them.

In the mid-1930s, Hatcher listed the Super Police load at 625 f/s from a snubby. If that bullet could be induced to mushroom to 0.50", the mathematical models predict about 17" of penetration and 38 grams of effective wound mass.

For comparison, Brassfetcher's snubby testing (https://brassfetcher.com/Handguns/38%20Special/38%20Special%20Ammo%20Selection.html) showed 135 grain short barrel Gold Dots with a velocity of 860 ft/s expanding to 0.53" and penetrating to about 12". Effective wound mass would only be about 28 grams.

[pettypace]

I had always thought the 195 grainer would be a great excuse for a yawning wide "manstopper" style hollow point approaching the geometry of a HPWC. But then I experimented with HPWC's and decided that 195 was too heavy to get the velocity for reliable expansion except with .357Magnum level loading. But, hey, convert it to a HPWC and you'd shed some weight so yeah, it would be just right. Could surely be better than how reversing #358395 turned out.

Here's the first batch of 200 grainers out of an adjustable weight HPWC mould a shooting buddy cooked up for me:

http://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/450_Adams/SuperPoliceManstopperMedium.jpg

Hatcher lists the original .38 Special Super Police load at 623 f/s from a 2" barrel. Starting there and working toward expansion between 0.40" and 0.48" should give FBI-compliant penetration and maximize wound mass.

I hope to get some testing done this week.

[Livin_cincy]

Western powders has load data for 230 grain 38 special & 357.

Penn bullets also has data.

[ddixie884]

That HPWC is really cool........

[Bill*B]

3.0 grains of Bulls Eye will propel the Accurate 36-193D at 585 fps, from my little one pound, 1 7/8" barreled S&W M37.

[pettypace]

That HPWC is really cool........

Cool, yes. But 200 grains appears to be a bit too heavy. Here are the results from last week's Snubbyfest:

https://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/expansion/200HPWC01.jpg

From a 2-3/4" Ruger Speed-Six, the shots through four layers of denim performed as I had hoped. But from my 442, they yawed before hitting the target, failed to expand, swapped ends and penetrated less than 12" in the gello. Not good. Next trip, I'll try less lead and more powder.

[catkiller45]

Sounds like a good deer load..
Might even be better out of a rifle..

[Green Frog]

Has anyone tried a heavy bullet, British military style round from a Terrier (38 S&W)? I’m thinking it might be too much of a good thing, but would certainly give the little Terrier som serious street cred!

Froggie

[Outpost75]

Has anyone tried a heavy bullet, British military style round from a Terrier (38 S&W)? I’m thinking it might be too much of a good thing, but would certainly give the little Terrier som serious street cred!

Froggie

Yes! I got good results with NOE 363-204RN with 2.1 grains of Bullseye for 550 fps.

[Green Frog]

Just to be sure. You got those results from a short barrel (snub) Terrier, right? How was the recoil? Did you have any indication you might be overworking that little I (or J) frame? My application would be a pre War I frame Terrier which is of course minimal in size, weight, and overall strength for any 38.

Thanks for your response,
Green Frog

[Outpost75]

Just to be sure. You got those results from a short barrel (snub) Terrier, right? How was the recoil? Did you have any indication you might be overworking that little I (or J) frame? My application would be a pre War I frame Terrier which is of course minimal in size, weight, and overall strength for any 38.

Thanks for your response,
Green Frog

Yes. Also worked well in a1937 Colt Banker's Special. Recoil and velocity similar to pre-WW2 WRA Super Police which I also tested. Velocity 620 fps in 4" Colt Police Positive in .38 NP.

[Green Frog]

Thank you very much, Outpost 75. I had been hesitant to fire that heavy a bullet in that lightweight a gun. I know it’s an all steel frame, but there’s just so little of it! I really appreciate your definitive information. I had considered selling off the little Terrier in favor of my 38 Spl Chiefs Specials, but I think I’ll play with it a bit longer.
Regards,
Froggie