Spencer Brass size & confusion

[barnaclebill]

Well here I am back to the forums again pleading for the great help I have always received.
I have 2 original Spencers 1865 and through all my research the caliber is 57-50. I always thought they were 56-56s but found out that was only for the early ones.
Today I ordered a center fire conversion kit from S&S and started working on profiling my guns. I slugged the barrel .535 and started measuring distance to rifling to see how this corresponded to Spencer cartridge length of 1.675". This overall length would put the tip of my bullet 1/2" into the rifling but of course the bullet will not fit to make it there. I started trimming down a 50-70 case and had to go to 1" before I did not get interference with the chamber. Confusing?

If I trim the case to 1" it almost matches the 56-56 cartridge case as it is .920" and the 56-50 is 1.165".

Anyway I look at it I would need the short case combined with a tapered bullet [I think] to clear the rifling to load without a hammer and then it would not eject very well. My gun is stamped 1865 made by Burnside and is not supposed to use the short 56-56 brass.

So ! Am I going crazy [as usual] or am I missing something here?:groner:

[missionary5155]

Good morning
You may have a rifle that was put together with a new receiver and a left over barrel from a previous batch. Most manufacturers were very fond of that practice (good economics). During the war many factories were employed in barrel making and tolerances were sloppy. Plus with balck powder it was more important for a weapon to chamber and fire than to be "target shooting" accurate.
So do not give up. I would make a chamber cast first before grinding down any more 50-70 brass. Plain parafin will give you a good enough working look at what your chamber measures. Plug the barrel just past the chamber area and pore it in hot. I toy with all sorts of old military rifles also. That chamber cast is a first chore after a good cleaning.

[NickSS]

Are you sure its a model 1865? Almost all of them were made by the Burside Rifle company and so marked. From what you say about the bore dimentions it looks like whatever model you have is in 56-56. The 56-50s slug at around 515 to 5-20 and the shell is a little over 1 inch long. I would make a chamber cast to make sure. Is both you rifles the same caliber?

[barnaclebill]

I did use cerracast or?? or whatever it is called and because the rifling has 3 lands I wrapped it with .005" copper , measured it and then subtracted .010" to get .535" bore. Pretty large but rifling is distinct and deep so wear does not appear to be a huge issue but .535 seems a bit excessive !!
I guess I will have to expand the case mouth about .010" to get a bullet to fit. From the back of the mold base to the start of the rifling is 1.196" but it starts tapering at about 1.00" from the base so that limits me to a 1" long case. The model 1865 I am sure about the date as it is stamped clearly on the receiver. I think you may be right on the 56-56 barrel as there is no way I can get a longer than 1" case in this bugger. This defiantly leaves out the option of purchasing ready made brass for 56-50. I have only cast one gun so far and will do the other today to see if I have the same issues. The date marking on the other one is not distinct but It could read 1860 which would make it a 56-56.
I also had to turn down the diameter of the bullet base to .530" to get it to chamber properly.
Thanks for the input, everything helps in a situation like this and I am fairly a neophyte on this subject.

[barnaclebill]

Well I just made a cast of the second Spencer and here are the numbers
First of all it has 6 groove rifling and measures out to .516" bore and the distance from the base of to the start of rifling is 1.210" but it is interesting that it does not taper like the other one but holds its dimension all the way to the rifling so a shell brass of 1.165" long would work making it a 56-50. One of these I am going to make into a shooter so now I must decide the direction to go.

My modified length 50-70 will only go 1/2" into the chamber before interference as the chamber tapers from .562 to .554 and the brass is .560 so it needs resized. Maybe I will just stick with shooting my Sharps.

[MtGun44]

Sounds like an interesting project.

Good luck, keep posting for those of us just watching on the
sidelines.

Bill

[405]

Well, a good chamber cast along with a good bore slug will tell all the details of what the correct cartridge and bore size should be. The conversion kit might work out and allow use of centerfire cases. Instead of trying to fight with 50-70 or whatever to make it work there are sources for some of the Spencer cases for centerfire. Then it's just a matter of best bullet and safe load. Most Spencer cartridges/bullets I've seen look similar to the pic below. The measurements on these are rarely spot on to what is listed as standard, varying by several thous in some of the parameters so it takes a compilation of all the measurements to help ID the cartridge and/or the chamber.

Final thought, if I had one, not sure I would try to convert it if it were all original and in good shape. More power to those who do though.

Pic of original Spencer cartridge- 56-56 Carbine

[barnaclebill]

Hey Montelius Walsh
Good to hear from you again

I agree with you on conversions and this is why I went with one where there are no permanent changes to the original. It only takes a couple minutes to remove the conversion and put it back to original. I just resized my machined 50-70 brass but I have a little issue that I have run into before. The sizing die will not go all the way down to the rim of the brass due to the space that the shell holder is taking up and now the brass will go all the way in the chamber except for the last .100". How do you get it sized all the way to the rim? or can you? Thanks for the pic. More bullet than brass. I have only found 56-50 brass from vendors but cannot find specific dimensions on it. I actually do not mind machining down the 50-70 brass as I have a lathe and it is done quickly. Also the 50-70 brass is 1/2 the cost of the 56-50 brass and it might also have to be machined anyway with all the wild numbers I am getting. Nowhere have I found 56-56 Brass.YET

[405]

Ya right, for a Spencer!
Really it is fairly easy to do. If you can insert a regular headless machine screw into the sizer die and tighten with nut you can chuck it into a drill. Then simply hold the turning die bottom against a bench grinder and take off a little of the bottom of the die. I would check often by running the die farther into the press and checking against a case until you've sized down the case enough so the case chambers easily. As the material is removed from the bottom of the die it allows the resizing die to progress farther down the case body toward the rim and clears the contact with the shell holder. Again, take a little off at a time and check often. The grinding may leave a small burr around the bottom die entry. You can dress that up with some emery paper, while turning in the drill. I've done several dies this way for tight chambers and/or short headspace chambers. With some dies there is only so much that can be removed because at some point the case mouth may run into the end of the sizing portion of the die at the mouth end of the die.

I've even free-handed doing this to a die by holding the die and turning it by hand against a grinder. The better method tho is using the drill to turn the die as it is ground.

Agreed, if the centerfire conversion is straight forward and doesn't alter the original gun then give it a go!

[barnaclebill]

Thanks
I will do it to my 50-70 die. I don't have to worry about the depth on that one. I have a lathe so I will just chuck it up and grind off a little. Hopefully then the shell holder will allow me to get close enough.
Do you know where I can purchase Rapine bullet molds?? I have just looked all over the web at dozens of suppliers and cannot find a source for Rapine molds.Maybe just call Rapine tomorrow.

[405]

You may be out of luck with the Rapine mold idea- link below. And, if you can chuck the die into the lathe then grind that'd work even better.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=72833&highlight=rapine

[NickSS]

I make some 56-50 brass from 348 Win brass. It works fine for me.

[barnaclebill]

I make some 56-50 brass from 348 Win brass. It works fine for me.

http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd348winchester.jpg

Now I would not have thought of that with the tapered case and all. How do you go about reforming it? Do you get cracked cases after firing?

[barnaclebill]

Help

When I try to insert an image it asks me for for the path to the image and then inserts that path but not the image--How do I insert the image?
Thanks

[405]

Pic attachment? I guess you can try to insert directly into the subject block. However I just store the pic in a folder on the PC. Then click "Manage Attachments" at bottom of this page and follow that path which will include "browse", "open" and "upload". I use jpeg format and size to between 50 and 100kb. Seems to always work.

As far as loading for the original Spencers-- that is such a rare and seldom traveled path, info is hard to come by. So not much help from me. But I'll give the specs of this 56-56 original cartridge. It doesn't match the listed specs precisely but is close enough considering all dimensions that by default I'm sure that's what it is. The specs of an original cartridge most likely will fit a Spencer so chambered. References like COTW have the specs for a lot of these obsolete rimfires.

OAL 1.660
Case Length .898
Neck .558
Base .561
Rim .645
Rim Thickness .060
Bullet .545

Good luck!

[barnaclebill]

Thanks for the info

I am machining several aluminum blocks to fit my Lee handles and going to machine up some bullet molds since I cannot find any of the correct ones. I guess I will be loading both 56-56 and 56-50 cartridges. It appears that both bullets are the same at about 350gn. I have been looking for dimensions of the bullets but have not found them yet. I have all the info except for the length of the bullet itself. I am assuming that it is set approx 1/4" into the brass on the 56-56 which would make a bullet length of 1".That length bullet would sit 1/2" into the 56-50 brass. It would be nice to measure an original but I have non of those handy.

[405]

Yep,
I tried to design one using the Mountain Mold design program. Set at .545 diameter and 370 grains with a nose configuration similar to the original ... they are short, would have a fairly short shank and wouldn't be seated very deeply into the case. No, I'm not going to tear down an original round to get the specs of an original bullet :)

Quote, "Nowhere have I found 56-56 Brass.YET " Don't know where you've looked but BACO (Buffalo Arms) lists 56-50 and 56-56 brass along with some reloading dies-- just in case the re-forming/sizing doesn't work out. The bullet may be the tricky one but should be able to come close via one of the custom mold makers like Mountain Molds. I think with some careful study and work on the MM design program you should be able to come up with a "correct" bullet for one of the Spencers for just north of $100.

[NickSS]

I anneal new cases down quite a bit just leave like 1/2 inch in water. Then I load like 15 gr of Red Dot and fill the case with corn meal with a wax plug on top and fire them in my 50-70 Sharps. I cut them to length with a tube cutter for either 50-70 or 5650 spencer. I have to ream the inside of the spencer cases as they are thick. I foget the size reamer I bought for it but it was not hard to figure out.

[barnaclebill]

This is dynamite information you guys are giving me. This is beginning to be a fun project. I enjoy the challenges presented here. I just installed the S&S Spencer center fire conversion [$170] and have been spending some time lapping in the dimensions so it will fit properly. It was interesting to discover that the lever hinge pin diameter has a huge influence on the operation. The loose pin will let the action work smooth and a snug pin will lock it up. I discovered this as I had both Spencer's disassembled and mixed up the pins.---A little more lapping of the S&S conversion will solve the binding problem.

Nickss--A little tutorial on your annealing technique would be appreciated.

I just looked at the MM design program and I think that will solve my problem--Thanks for the idea. I am going to machine my own bullet mold so I can modify it as needed and also learn a little more of the technique of producing molds. Come on --lets tear a bullet apart ! I did a little research for "as dug" bullets from the war and found a couple in great condition and they measure out to be .92" long. That gets pretty close to my 1" guess and also gives a good visual as to the actual shape of the original of which I will have to modify to get the flat tip. This is where that design program will come in handy.
If nothing else I am getting a good education of Spencer rifles.
Next comes the Roper Rifle !
Thanks for being here and putting up with me
BB

[barnaclebill]

Yep,
I tried to design one using the Mountain Mold design program. Set at .545 diameter and 370 grains with a nose configuration similar to the original ... they are short, would have a fairly short shank and wouldn't be seated very deeply into the case. No, I'm not going to tear down an original round to get the specs of an original bullet :)

Quote, "Nowhere have I found 56-56 Brass.YET " Don't know where you've looked but BACO (Buffalo Arms) lists 56-50 and 56-56 brass along with some reloading dies-- just in case the re-forming/sizing doesn't work out. The bullet may be the tricky one but should be able to come close via one of the custom mold makers like Mountain Molds. I think with some careful study and work on the MM design program you should be able to come up with a "correct" bullet for one of the Spencers for just north of $100.

Just looked through my cabinet and found that I had ordered 5 56-50s a long time ago from Buffalo arms and they are cut down 50-70s. Thats the reason they were so expensive. I started designing a bullet but then realized that what I was ending up with was a short 50-70 that i mold for my Sharps so I took a couple dozen to the machine lathe and cut them down to .780" which measures out to 350gr with the flat nose so I can use the center fire conversion. I think I am getting a handle on this Spencer thing finally.[smilie=w: Thanks for all the help.
BB

[barnaclebill]

All I can add is what my original 1865 Spencer carbine is. The serial number puts production as 1864 year. It is a 56-50 (not 56-56) Groove diameter is .520" , 6 grooves bright and shiny.
I use Rapine mold no. 520350 which looks like a huge Keith type boolit. It feeds OK and gives me 3' inch groups at 100 yards on a good day with light loads of smokeless Hercules 2400 using a poly fiber fill tuft. No fouling, very consistent, and just a few grains of unburned powder.
Cut down 50-70 brass like you are doing and the rims to.

Thanks Bill for the input. Sounds like we have the same Carbine. I decided to convert the 56-50 to center fire and leave the 56-56 alone for now I am now ready now to start loading. I had also considered using a light load of 2400 as I have a can of it that does not get used for anything but I would really miss the BP smoke.. What load are you using? I tried finding a Rapine mold but they are now out of business. Would it be possible for you to measure up one of your bullets dropped from your mold? A pic would be nice too.
BB:coffee:

[herbert buckland]

56-56 boolits are a heal based boolit Rapine Bullet Mould maks two sizes .546 & .535 ,370gr boolit,Bufolow Arms sells 56-56 cases for original Spencers also 56-50 cases for originals, though they dont recomend the starline 56-50 casses for originals i and others use these cases with no isues,Buffalow Arms also sells a very 56-50 boolit mould for originals these boolits need to be about .520 for the 56-50,It sounds lick your Burncide Spencer has been rebareled with a civil war 56-56 barell these are 22inches long the 1865 modle 56-50s have a 20 inch long barell ,the load i youse in my original Burncide 56-50 is a .520-375gr .775 inch long Biffalow arms Jim520-375 Boolit driven by 35gr swissFF and Wolf large pistol primers in Starline 56-50 cases OAL 1.58 inches

[barnaclebill]

,It sounds lick your Burncide Spencer has been rebareled with a civil war 56-56 barell these are 22inches long the 1865 modle 56-50s have a 20 inch long barell

My barrels on both Spencer's are 20" long and one has 3 rifle grooves,pic. below [56-56] 1865 Ser#22xxx and the other has 6 [56-50] 186? with no ser# apparent. Appreciate all the info you supplied. Thanks :veryconfu
BB

.

[herbert buckland]

This is starting to sound very unusual ,All Burncide Spencers were made in 1865 they have there own seprate serial numbers so it is posible to have the same serial number on 1860 spencers 1865 Spencer made carbines or rifles & Burncide 1865 contract carbines ,have you checked under the forwood for serial number on the barell,if this matches you may have a experimental carbine ,all Burncide carbines will have 3 groove rifiling Spencer did not use 3 grooves so it seems strange that it a 56-56 have you done a chamber cast .The 56-56 had a taperd boar groove diameter yously starts at .546 and tapers to .535, 56-50 is yously very close to .520 groove and throut diameter in the Burncide spencers ,you might check to see if you have a cass seperation at the front of the chamber, but looking at the pictures of your spencer it is obvious that it has work done on it (nice inlays)i would say a gunsmith rerifled and chamberd it to 56-56 this would clean up pits in original barell an not be a hard job for a good gunsmith

[barnaclebill]

I checked under the wood on the Burnside Spencer and the serial number matches. To not confuse the issue I will only speak here of the one Burnside carbine Dated 1865 and has the 3 groove barrel.

Casting measurements
A...Bore tapers from .570 to .558 & Brass tapers from .560 to .540"
B...1.2" from base end to rifling
C....530" rifling bore diameter

At first I thought this was a 56-56 as the 56-50 cartridge would not enter the chamber but I found that was due to the fact that the ejector lever was slightly bent and interfering with the cartridge. Now that it is fixed the 56-50 cartridge will load easily in both Carbines. My Mistake---Sorry for the confusion.

The inlays are silver and look quite cool. I like them a lot. There is also an owl on the top of the stock.

BB


I checked for a serial# on the other carbine under the wood and there is non.

[herbert buckland]

.530 is on the high side for 56-50 groove diameter but not uheard of ,i measured a Burncide Spencer that had a .528 groove diameter( it shot suprisnly well with .520 boolits) if the serial number on the barell matches and is 20 inches long I would think it is a 56-50 whith a seperated cass in the chamber ,squirt some wart kill in the chamber(either)waight 30 seconds then push a wire brush down the barell it probly will come out ,last resort rent a 56-50 chamber reamer and gently clean chamber out ,good luck these old rifles are great fun and when you find the right boolit very acurate .I have been yousing my Burncide Spencer for 30 years now an have lost count of the pigs it has taken

[barnaclebill]

Now what is Wart Kill ??????

I have been trying to get my S&S Center fire conversion to work smoothly but the upper curved part of the block catches on the edge of the gun housing just in front of the trigger and actually makes small gouges in the S&S part. I think they needed to harden this part as it is steel to steel sliding contact. I will have to talk to them about that. Polishing did not help.
Someday I will also be shooting a Spencer at the pigs on my Florida land.

Thanks

BB:drinks:

[herbert buckland]

Wort kill is a spray you can get from the chemist ,i belive you call them drug stors, it is basicaly preshurised eaither ,when sprayed on a wort it freezes it and hopfuly it falls off after a couple of days,it is also very good for spraying it on cases that have seperated in the chamber,it makes the brass contract more than the chamber ,after about 30 seconds seperated cass will yously fall out,if not a wire brush will help move it .With the S&S breachblock i have found that the flats that fit into the leaver are seldom squar to the lower breachblock,you can test this by asembeling the action out of the carbine,drop the leaver and if does not line up with the lower block you need to file a bit off the stem that fits into the leaver also tack notice of the slot in the stem to make it the same as original also to inprove feeding it is a good idear ti grind a small radius on the top leading edge of the S&S block ,if you have any trouble dont heasitate to get in touch with me as i have set quite a few S&S blocks up with good results.There is onother posibility why the carbine will not take a 56-50 cass it might have been yoused a lot whith 56-52 cartriges this was comon as they are interchamble and genraly had a biger boolit so they were more acurate ,the cass from the 56-52 is shorter than the 56-50 and if carfull cleaning is not caried out a build up of lead can form in the front of the chamber making it posible to only chamber 56-52 cartriges ,a good lead remover will fix this,but be carfull some of it is very corosive so get good advice on what and how to use it

[barnaclebill]

Thanks Herbert

I checked real close fo a piece of brass in the bore and all is clean. The problem was a hang up with the shell ejector but all that works well now and the 56-50 enters the chamber fine. I had to take a diamond fish hook file and get rid of the sharp edges just forward of the trigger and up near the barrel to get the action moving smoothly. If I use this same S&S Block on my other carbine I would have to lap down the forward face of the S&S Block as it is very tight against the bullet base. The action actually closes but is very tight. For now I am satisfied with the one carbine working smoothly. I loaded up a few of my homemade 350gn lubricated bullets in 56-50 brass with 28grains of FFG with a card stock cover and they feed great. You have been very helpful.

It sounds like you have quite a collection of Spencers and it is for sure you have a great knowledge of them. It sounds like you are located outside the US. If I dont blow myself up I will let you know how all goes with my test firings.

This has been a great group and it is apparent that I am the novice here as everyone seems to have a huge knowledge base of these old guns. I thank everyone for all the assistance I have been given on my Spencers and the Sharps in the past. When I got the Spencer's I did not even know they were rim fire.. Live and learn.

BB

The new S&S Conversion

[barnaclebill]

BarnacleBill,
On my original breech block I tag and label it with the make and serial number. Keep it in the safe shelf with the gun.
Sorry, I don't have a photo or camera ready to picture that boolit yet.
My breech block was made by a gunsmith who could copy the original , with the exception of making the central fire pin. It worked smooth from the first.

Good Idea on Tagging

I am going to machine the next center fire block for the other Spencer. I will now use the S&S block for a starting concept.
BB

[herbert buckland]

I think you have made the right decision on choosing the Spencer made carbine as a shooter,boolits will be much easier to find and the 6 groove barell has a slower swist rat than the Burncide 3 groove barell,which makes it more acurate whith the short boolits giving you a larger selection of moulds to choose from

[IanK]

Can anyone send me or post a picture of the Spencer with the stabler cut off in the on position and with the action open as far as it will go?

My Burnside Spencer willl not open far enough to chamber a round with the cut off in the on position, and I thought this was how it was supposed to work - open enough to chamber single rounds but not feed from the magazine tube.

Thanks

Ian