DEWC in 12ga. full bore size --- 1,000+ grains?

[tommygirlMT]

If DEWC boolits traveling at slow to middlish muzzle velocity work great for handguns to produce excellent accuracy at short range and do have a nice flat nose for nock down --- why wouldn't the same be true of a bigger version?

As some of you may or may not know in my view shotgun slugs out of rifled barreled slug guns are not for longer range hunting but for launching massive full bore slugs at things you want dead NOW !!!!!!!!!! Basically same idea and principle as Dixie Slugs has for their Terminator slug loads only I load my own from slugs cast from my mans mold every chance I get to "liberate" it for a couple hours. His mold drops at about 730 grains with WW alloy sweatened with a little tin and a little lino.

He keeps on telling me to "Get your own mold" so I've been thinking why not a simple DEWC design about an inch plus long with one end with a hollow base/nose about the same shape and profile as the HB pin for the Lyman 525 grain 12ga slug mold which would make it about a third of the slugs length deep. Mabey four body bands and three grease grooves --- pan lube and load. Should end up at about 1,000 grains weight so I could use the pressure tested IMR-4227 load data greg has done up for his 1000+ grain bear buster slug which is basically a SWC shape. With a regular pistol cartridge the difference in seating depth would mean one couldn't load a DEWC with the same load data as a SWC design but with a roll crimped shotgun load the seating depth is nearly the same and I will most likely be loading them in 3-1/2" plastic hulls and his load data is for 3" hulls so I would actually be adding some wadding material not taking any out.

So basically a full bore 12ga size DEWC where one side has a tapered hollow so you can load it one way for a HP slug that would probably mushroom to an 1-1/2" diameter with appropriate alloy or load it the other way and have almost a completely flat nose for over-whelming hydrolic impact shock. Mold would be regulated to cast 1000 grains even with hard WW alloy and just slightly more with softer alloy.

Comments? :coffeecom

[longbow]

tommygirlMT:

You are a glutton for punishment! I guess with moderate loads of slower burning powder recoil may not be too bad but I got to figure 1000 grs. is going to slap you around some.

The heaviest slug I have shot is 860 grs. over a moderate charge of Blue Dot and that thumped a bit but my 750 gr. slugs over what I figured was a moderate charge really whacked me around some and I am sure dropped my IQ more than I could spare! I got recoiled stupid with those. Mind you, I am using typical shotgun powders.

Have you or turbo done penetration tests to see if there is a practical limit to weight?

I am wondering if there is a point at which the heavier slower slug loses in the penetration department to a somewhat lighter faster slug (not real light just somewhat). 1000 grs. is a lot of lead!

I wondered that with my .44 too and tried penetration tests in end grain birch thinking 300+ gr. slugs might lose to say 270/280 gr. but nope!

If you proceed with this I will certainly be looking forward to range and expansions tests ~ especially with the reversed hollow base. That oughta make a hole and a half.

Interesting stuff.

Longbow

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I know I for sure would want one HEAVY 12 bore to be working up loads with a near 2 ounce slug. A 10 guage double with 1 7/8 ounce loads is all the fun I think my 155 pounds will ever need. Fire once and take two more steps forward to keep the range from getting longer.
I just do not foresee my needing to stop anything larger than a Toyota in the near future and a .685 RB of water dropped WW will do that just fine.
But if I ever need to SMASH a charging Brown bear or an enraged horse that sounds like the tool to do it.
Like Longbow I will enjoy reading what follows.

[Dixie Slugs]

The Dixie Terminator is just a modern version of the Paradox slug/bullet. It is squared - length = diameter like the original......730" - 730 grs.
Todd Corder put down a 2000 pound Angus with Terminator and the result is on our webpage. Went through the skull and busted up about foue neck bones.
Remember the original Paradox was only 1000'/" with blackpowder and 1200'/" with Cordite.
There is no need for higher velocity with these huge full bore slugs at reasonable range.
It hard to find a mold maker for the 12 bore slugs because the mold blocks must be bigger. The nose must be designed for a roll crimp and not be so long as to touch the primer of another load in the mag tube. Lube is simple Alox sprayed on.
They load best in a straight walled case.
A .730" slug diameter works great for .003" compression in .727" groove diameter rifled barrel.
Regards, James

[Nobade]

So what will this do that a hardened 12ga. ball at 1500 or so fps not do besides knock you silly?

[tommygirlMT]

So what will this do that a hardened 12ga. ball at 1500 or so fps not do besides knock you silly?

A round ball or a round nosed slug without any flat tip section just pushes the meat out of the way and leaves very little of a permanent wound cavity --- don't get me wrong I love hard cast 0.735" RB loads out of a rifled 12ga. --- its just that on game when using such a load you have to aim for your shot to hit hard bone to bring the animal down right away --- front shoulder joint is good spot. With a slug with a flat on the nose a big hydrolic shock wave is created in the body fluids that literally smashes the critters organs. The bigger the flat on the nose the bigger the the shock wave. The biggest flat of all is a full waddcutter and a hollow point that mushrooms to larger then boolit diameter can be even bigger. Of course this comes at the cost of depth of penetration. A SWC shape of the same weight and velocity will penetrate deaper then a full wadcutter but the full wadcutter will produce bigger shock wave over the area it does penetrate.

-------------------

Longbow, as far as weight vs. penetration and coming to a point of limited returns as far as increasing weight. The heaviest 12ga slugs I have easy access to right now are 730gr and 600gr --- The 730 will outpenetrate the 600 even when the 600 is loaded faster so that their kinetic energy is the same. I don't know how much heavier beyond 730 one has to go before the point of limited returns is reached but I can say for sure that that that I havn't reached that point yet so I can still go heavier. Granted I might go past that point by jumping all the way up to 1000+ grains but then at least I'd know that the peak point is somewhere between 730 and 1000 and could play from there. Even so, just due to nose shape it probably wouldn't penetrate as deep. I'd have to load the 730 backwards with the flat base forwards to get a true comparison. Havn't actually drawn anything up yet, still thinking about it but I'd probably have either Old West or Brooks cut the mold if I decide to do it --- both of which have oversize blocks and will cut 12 size molds.

------------------

Thank you Dixie for the post of encouragement --- you were polite enough youd didn't actually come out and say it but you think thats too heavy and too long a slug don't you?

[longbow]

tommygirlMT:

If you want, I can draw up a slug for you. I have a 3D program to model with then take 2D cuts.

I have drawn up several boolits for group buys so far. I guess I am a glutton for punishment too!

I enjoy seeing the developing boolit (or slug in this case).

If you are interested, I am willing ot help out.

In fact, if you are interested in a smooth sided slug (no lube grooves) I have a mould now that casts 0.730 so would only have to make a hollow base plug and I could cast some up for you. Not sure of max. weight but I bet it would be up around 1000 grs.

You would have to tumble lube (I could knurl them) but shooting a few wouldn't likely lead your bore much anyway. Just to see how they do I am thinking.

Let me know.

I do want to see some video of water jugs being hit by that reversed cavity monster!

Longbow

[longbow]

Just checked my mould. Should be no problem to get 1000 gr. slugs in WC hollow base out of it. I will have to make a new guide bushing, maybe ejector pin, and hollow base core size of your choosing. Not a lot of work at all.

If you are interested I am willing.

Longbow

[Greg5278]

I don't have a wadcutter mold for you, But I do have the 1043gr TC slug. The WC is probably not going to expand much for you, if at all. You will be limited to velocity at 1200 FPS or less, OUCH!
My slug was tested at the Linbaugh Seminar, and went through 49" of wetpack, after hitting a beef Femur. Velocity was only a measly 1048 FPS.

That should do the trick. There is a pic of the Mold on SGW on the post about the thinking about a slug mold or something like that.
Greg

[Greg5278]

I have an 880gr Maxi-Ball type slug too. They mushroom slightly in 30-1 alloy.
Greg

[Rick N Bama]

You know what's about to happen here don't you? You guys are about to come up with a "best" design & then there'll have to be a group buy on a mold, probably done by NOE:)

[tommygirlMT]

Longbow, I appreciate the offer --- but hold off with any modifications --- I may have another way to test the basic idea. If I do decide to fly with this all the way I will want a conventional two peice mold with lube grooves that I can pan lube --- or in due time I might have a push through lube-ra-sizer set up to handle 12 bore size stuff. I like tumble lube --- but I like conventional lube better mainly because tumble lube means nasty fowling if I decide to do some loads with "real powder" --- the black stuff. With conventional lube grooves and pan or luber-sizer all I do is switch lube type. I have yet to find a tumble lube that plays well with true black.

[longbow]

Well, the offer still stands if you want to test the basic shape. I would not be permanently modifying my mould, just making a couple of new widgets for it. It will cast what you want but no lube grooves so would have to be knurled or use a lubed wad underneath.

I can make wadcutter hollow base or TC hollow base with it at 0.730" diameter.

If you decide to go lube grooves and split mould I can draw up the slug you want to get a mould made. Not a problem.

Longbow

[riflemanI]

where would someone find this information
and no there is not limit for increased mass increasing penetration. its simply a matter of physics and how much equal and opposite reaction you and the gun can handle



He keeps on telling me to "Get your own mold" so I've been thinking why not a simple DEWC design about an inch plus long with one end with a hollow base/nose about the same shape and profile as the HB pin for the Lyman 525 grain 12ga slug mold which would make it about a third of the slugs length deep. Mabey four body bands and three grease grooves --- pan lube and load. Should end up at about 1,000 grains weight so I could use the pressure tested IMR-4227 load data greg has done up for his 1000+ grain bear buster slug which is basically a SWC shape. With a regular pistol cartridge the difference in seating depth would mean one couldn't load a DEWC with the same load data as a SWC design but with a roll crimped shotgun load the seating depth is nearly the same and I will most likely be loading them in 3-1/2" plastic hulls and his load data is for 3" hulls so I would actually be adding some wadding material not taking any out.

[longbow]

What information are you wanting to find?

An yes there is a limit, in fact more than one. Discounting recoil, there is powder volume (larger the slug the small the powder volume) and pressure (you can only push a mass so fast at a given pressure).

In a shotgun hull powder volume may not be a big limitation as there tend to be a lot of filler wads or cushion legs taking up volume originally meant for black powder.

You should read Ed Hubel's posts on the 12 GA-FH-SLUG TESTER if you want to see what extreme loads can do:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?7916-12GA-FH-Slug-Tester&highlight=hubel

Ed uses very large charges of slow powders to achieve his high velocities and massive energies. Still, eventually the heavier the slug becomes the more powder volume is displaced and the slower the powder you have to use to avoid high pressure.

Oh, do a search for Greg Sappington's posts (greg5278). He had a 1000 gr. slug mould made for rifled gun. Pretty impressive performance.

Anyway, some good reading in there and more poop from a shotgun than I care to pull the trigger on. I am quite happy with slugs from 450 to about 600 grs.

Different strokes.

Longbow

[riflemanI]

the data for the 1000+ grain slug loads.
Of course there is a limit to cartridge capacity but there is no limit to mass increasing penetration. if you have two masses traveling at 1000fps given they are the same diameter the higher one will penetrate more, onward to infinity like a micro black hole. that is what I thought the purposed question pertained to. velocity and mass are different. critters and wet paper are mostly water which is uncompressable so the faster you hit it the faster it hits back limiting penetration and shattering bullets causing shallower penetration. there is no equivalent for the mass of the projectile. the heavier the better. didn't say you could fit a 4000gr bullet in a 12 gauge and not blow it up. :)

[longbow]

If you want the data for the 1000 gr. slug loads you have to ask those that have developed it. There are a few ~ Ed Hubel, Greg Sappington and turbo1889 have all worked with heavy slugs.

Now that's just silly. You are saying that a heavier mass at the same velocity will penetrate better. That is obvious.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for momentum rather than energy figures. Momentum = penetration... but within practical limits of slug weights and velocities.

You are assuming you can drive the heavier mass at the same velocity as the lighter mass. Pressure limitations will fix that and you will find that the heavier mass cannot be driven at the same velocity as the lighter mass.

As slug mass increases so powder volume decreases. Let's use your 4000 gr. slug... no room for powder = no velocity = no penetration.

Now on to reality and practicality. Will a 1000 gr. slug at 1000 FPS penetrate better than a 500 gr. slug at 1500 FPS? Most likely. Will a 2000 gr. slug at 500 FPS (is that even possible?) penetrate better than a 500 gr. slug at 1500 FPS? I doubt it very much.

Are any of these slugs going to shatter in a critter? I doubt it, we are not talking varmint bullets here nor high velocities.

A benefit of moderate weight slugs ~ lots of load data. Get that weight much over 600 grs. and load data is scarce.

Anyway, if you want to learn about heavy slugs check out the link and do some searches of the names I gave you. Those guys are pushing the limits of slug shooting. Ed has posted some of his loads which are pressure tested. cpileri has also posted his results using some of Ed's and other's load data.

Longbow

[riflemanI]

your just being nit picky. I have a genius Iq of course i know there are limits to pressure and space and all of that. that was not the point the point is that more mass at the same velocity will always penetrate more there is no sliding scale like on velocity. that is all I said.

[longbow]

Yes, you are absolutely right that more mass at the same velocity will penetrate better.

[riflemanI]

if only I could get the wife to say those words.

I really like this heavy full bore slug stuff. im wanting to get into it. I like the idea of useing the full potential of the 12 gauge but without the pressure signs that are easy to read in normal brass loading i'm a bit shy.

[riflemanI]

found something interesting. Its a formula for determining penetration in wetpack by meplat. weight in grains divided by 7000 times velocity divided by meplat in thousands of an inch divided by 5. It seems to be somewhat accurate for pistol velocity type bullets. answers the question of velocity vs mass a little better.
example 740gr slug 1350fps .4 meplat vs 980gr slug 1175fps .4 meplat
740/7000 = .1057 * 1350= 142.71 / .4 356.7 / 5 = 71 inches of penetration in wetpack
980/7000 = .14 * 1200 = 168 / .4 = 420 / 5 = 84 inches of penetration in wetpack.

[cpileri]

Anyone happen to have a dixie slug to measure the meplat on?
So we can put that number into this formula and compare the result to actual results obtained here:
http://www.dixieslugs.com/forum1/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=121981&sid=b004b299ab5045c0fa1eaafac583f141

Just to verify the formula a little.
C-

[Greg5278]

That Formula is nowhere near right. My 1043 Gr slug at 1048 FPS with a .500" Metplat will only go through 49" of Wetpack. The Formula shown gives almost double that. Google search my Name and the Linebaugh Seminar for the real Wepack and Wetpack/Beef Femut Test.
That will give You more accurate Results. I have been inpressed with the Performance of a .660" diameter 678Grain Solid and a .375 Metplat against Trees. Haven't fired it in Wetpack. Maybe I'll Volunteer some Ammo for the Next Linebaugh Seminar?
Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[Ballistics in Scotland]

You would think the kind of animal involved would have something to do with it, and buffalo and percheron horses both seem improbable. I don't believe anything else in North America, and certainly not deer, exposes any great inadequacy in killing power when reasonably well placed. I think a 1000 grain slug would entail a loss of flatness of trajectory and ability to get off a very fast second shot, both of which you need. In exchange about all it would give is the ability to kill faster than NOW, which you don't.

[riflemanI]

opps division of 5 may have been for boards not wetpack. I think wetpack was divided by 6.25. Of course its just an interesting way to compare higher weight vs higher velocity. if the bullet tumbles or flattens it would not apply. I'd would not bet my life on it but its there none the less.

[cpileri]

"... only 49 inches of wetpack..."

yeah. ONLY!

:)

[Greg5278]

Yes only 49 inches of wetpack...! I know it's disappointing, but check out BPI's slugs tested in 10% Gelatin.
They are pretty sad. My Stuff tracks strainght in Wetpack and is recovered point on. Alot of Rifle Bullets Yaw and exit the Wetpack sideways. I seem to recall the .50 BMG exited sideways after 20 some Inches.
I recall the .416 Rigby went 26" with a Softpoint, but don't quote ME on that.
If You Hit the BEar square in the Shoulders, I doubt it would exit, but it's possible.
Nobody with a Brain would try a Texas Heart Shot on a Bear.
Greg
AKA 12 Bore