How good can you see? [Archive]

healey55

02-22-2010, 02:06 PM

44man

02-22-2010, 02:50 PM

Hi.. New here and was reading one of the threads about accuracy.

I have been shooting for 50 years. I wear glasses now and really miss my old 20/15 vision. They tell me it is still 20/15 corrected but it sure don't seem like it.

I have been doing a lot of shooting at 50 yards which I think is a great intermediate range. Mostly I have been checking some M1 garand loads and working on a good load for my 44 Henry bb that will also work good in my 44 revolvers.

Soooo.. to get to the point. No matter what rifle I shoot.. I get best groups with the best guns and loads of maybe 1 1/2".. Mostly two inch for good guns and loads.

That is the best I can see. I admit it. For revolvers.. with their normal sights and such.. I get 4" groups if I am doing my part from my 4" 44 guns (lots of 4's)

All my shooting is open sights. I don't own a gun with a scope.

I have been reading here how guys get sub one inch groups at 50 yards with their handguns. With open sights? for 12 rounds? I used to be a better shot when I was younger.. shot a thousand rounds a month but no way could I shoot sub one inch groups at 50 yards for 12 round groups.

When I look at the front sight and make it clear, the 3" bull I use is fuzzy enough to be maybe.. what? 50% bigger counting the fuzz than it really is? pretty hard to make everything line up and find the center (or within an inch of it) much less take into consideration the mechanical problems of load and gun.

I have a K22 masterpiece that is pretty accurate. Smith used to claim that the gun was capable of shooting 1" groups at 50 yards. At ten yards.. I can shoot less than half inch groups with it. At 50 yards.. it will shoot, for me.. the same 4" groups that I get with other handguns.

I am thinking that, at 50 yards, using rifle sights.. the best I can see to hit is a 2" group and that with handguns and their less precise and harder to use sights.. that 4" is the best that I can see. Oddly.. or not.. 100 yards is not all that much worse.
Welcome to the club of old folks. If I had the revolvers I have now with the vision I had then---WOW. But I do miss a lot of the older rifles that would shoot better then many new ones. So did some of the old scopes. Now a huge pile of money needs to be spent for accuracy. A good scope costs more then the rifle. But Savage, weatherby Mark 5's and Vanguard's still shoot. Others are good but it seems the pre 64 Winchester and a lot of the old lever guns were better then what we buy now. Even some of the original muzzle loaders shoot better then the new inline junk.
Vision IS a problem. But many times it is not to blame.
Now the K22 is one of the best and you will find that a loss of accuracy is NOT the gun but the ammo today. .22 ammo SUCKS now. Notice how every shot sounds different? That never happened long ago. Target .22's are still good but many guns are not rifled for target loads.
Anyway, even with vision that gets old, if the gun or load will not do it, neither can you.

felix

02-22-2010, 03:22 PM

There is more to seeing than what meets the eye. Plus, the accuracy of the impulse from the eye, to the brain, to the trigger at the right time. BR guns now use 45X scopes to better see the weather. 99 percent of us who shoot BR cannot connect the dots necessary to ever compete with the 1 percent who can. ... felix

Lead Fred

02-22-2010, 03:55 PM

Still have 20/15, I can see a pretty gal 3 blocks away.
Just cant see up close any more.
When shooting open sights I tend to wear Ben Franklins.
I did move my rear sight up my barrel on the flintlock when I built it.
It and the M1 Garand have good long sight pictures.
Its the saddle guns that get fuzzy.

Bucks Owin

02-22-2010, 04:28 PM

I started dusting lampblack on my front handgun sights a couple years ago for bench shootin' and "wouldn't leave home without it" now...FWIW

Geraldo

02-22-2010, 05:07 PM

99 percent of us who shoot BR cannot connect the dots necessary to ever compete with the 1 percent who can. ... felix

What a great quote. :drinks:

I finally reached the point where I need "cheaters" for close work, but my distance vision is good. I do have a slight astigmatism in my right eye that I'm sure has some slight effect on my shooting, but I'm not willing to switch to shooting lefty just yet. The future appears to be glass on Contender barrels, peeps on muzzleloaders, and gold bead front sights on 1911s, but for now I can work with any sighting system.

dubber123

02-22-2010, 07:13 PM

I don't think I've ever fired a 12 shot group in my life. I do like to shoot all chambers. I have had plenty of 3 shot groups that were exceptional, but I don't think that proves a whole lot on a 6 shot gun. Supposedly my eyes are corrected to better than 20/20, but it doesn't seem so to me....

2 weekends ago, I did shoot a .978" 5 shot group at 50 meters. I did shoot all 6, and 1 didn't feel "right" The total 6 shot group was 1.3". 4 were in .51". This was with an iron sighted S&W Mod 14. No, I can't do it every time. My .475 averaged 1.5" for 5 when I shot it daily, also iron sights. Try different target sizes. I like a 2-3/8" black bull for 50 meters.

Johnch

02-22-2010, 08:19 PM

Even with glasses iron sights are hard for me

So I shoot a scope or red dot on almost all my pistols

Expect for the ones for self defence

Years ago I could see well enought to shoot IHMSA , and shoot a few 40's

But small groups ....never
With iron sights I can't do better than 3 - 4" at 100 , even with a rifle and load that will shoot sub 1"

John

gray wolf

02-22-2010, 08:47 PM

A good eye Doc. can build you a set of specs that may be able to balance out the distance a little better. I have the same problem--trifocals here. I can only use a peep sight on a rifle or a scope. With the handgun I make do.
Once you deal with the fact of what is happening (age) and get passed it you understand that it don't get better and you look for a little help ( scope the rifles and don't look back)
Just go with what is going on so you can enjoy your shooting.

waksupi

02-22-2010, 09:05 PM

I found with open sights, I can widen the back notch, and be able to get a good sight picture again, with the front sight pretty clear. Made a big difference for me, I can shoot without glasses fairly well again.

RayinNH

02-22-2010, 09:24 PM

Healey, I can't see either. I'm 55 and have been wearing corrective lenses since I was 9. I wore glasses as a kid then got contact lenses at about 20 years old.

I use iron sights as well, and my shooting parallels yours, 1 1/2-2" groups at fifty yards with a rifle. I usually don't bother at 100 any longer, it just adds a lot of walking, which can be a good thing at times :-). I usually don't go beyond 25 yards for handgun shooting, and those groups go about 2-3" depending on the day. Just for the halibut I'll try at fifty yards if someone has left some untouched clay pidgeons on the berm.

With the contact lenses windy days play havoc. My eyes water and I have to stop until my eyes dry a bit and clear. One thing that helps some is the Merit optical device. It's a unit that suction cups itself to your shooting glasses. It has an adjustable iris similar to a camera lens. It helps to clarify the sight picture. Not a miracle cure but it does help some.

Welcome to getting older, and Cast Boolits...Ray

Edubya

02-22-2010, 09:34 PM

The older that I get, the better that I was!
I'm 64 and I'm just glad to be able to participate in this shootin and loadin hobby. I've got more physical problems than eyesight and it ain't gettin any better.
EW

fecmech

02-22-2010, 09:37 PM

I'm 67 yrs old and like you "had" 20/15 vision but at that time did not do 50 yd group shooting. I cheated and bought a Ransom rest for my ammo testing. That said I've now gone over to the "Dark" side and use red dot sights on the handguns. With the peep sights on my rifles I can easily bench 1-1.5" groups@ 50 yds if the guns can do it. D&T that pretty brass Big Boy for a receiver sight or a tang sight and you can too!

Doc Highwall

02-22-2010, 10:27 PM

I wish I had even 20/20, my vision is 20/28 to 20/32 with 3.25 diopters of astigmatism in my good eye and my right eye is 10/400.

leadeye

02-22-2010, 10:29 PM

I tried this for what its worth and it helped me with open sight handguns. Determine your master eye and take the glass out of your reading glasses for the other eye. Might not be a good long term solution but it did make it easier to see the sights without fuzzing the target.

wallenba

02-22-2010, 10:41 PM

I have an astigmatism in my dominant eye, and just had cataract surgery on it too. They put a Toric implant on it to help correct the astigmatism too. My open sight shooting has improved dramatically at 50 yards. My Opthamologist also recommended trying a stick-on diopter to help with resolution. That helped too. See your eye doctor, and discuss your shooting needs.
The diopter is cheap too, worth a try. http://www.midwayusa.com/Search/#diopter____-_1-2-4_8-16

stubshaft

02-22-2010, 11:06 PM

Use a "Merit eyglass shooting aperature". I have used one for years and allows you to see the sights and target clearly. I also got fancy when shooting silly wett and bought a Knobloch. I couldn't shoot decent groups without one.

geargnasher

02-23-2010, 01:57 AM

Hi.. New here and was reading one of the threads about accuracy.

I have been shooting for 50 years. I wear glasses now and really miss my old 20/15 vision. They tell me it is still 20/15 corrected but it sure don't seem like it.

I have been doing a lot of shooting at 50 yards which I think is a great intermediate range. Mostly I have been checking some M1 garand loads and working on a good load for my 44 Henry bb that will also work good in my 44 revolvers.

Soooo.. to get to the point. No matter what rifle I shoot.. I get best groups with the best guns and loads of maybe 1 1/2".. Mostly two inch for good guns and loads.

That is the best I can see. I admit it. For revolvers.. with their normal sights and such.. I get 4" groups if I am doing my part from my 4" 44 guns (lots of 4's)

All my shooting is open sights. I don't own a gun with a scope.

I have been reading here how guys get sub one inch groups at 50 yards with their handguns. With open sights? for 12 rounds? I used to be a better shot when I was younger.. shot a thousand rounds a month but no way could I shoot sub one inch groups at 50 yards for 12 round groups.

When I look at the front sight and make it clear, the 3" bull I use is fuzzy enough to be maybe.. what? 50% bigger counting the fuzz than it really is? pretty hard to make everything line up and find the center (or within an inch of it) much less take into consideration the mechanical problems of load and gun.

I have a K22 masterpiece that is pretty accurate. Smith used to claim that the gun was capable of shooting 1" groups at 50 yards. At ten yards.. I can shoot less than half inch groups with it. At 50 yards.. it will shoot, for me.. the same 4" groups that I get with other handguns.

I am thinking that, at 50 yards, using rifle sights.. the best I can see to hit is a 2" group and that with handguns and their less precise and harder to use sights.. that 4" is the best that I can see. Oddly.. or not.. 100 yards is not all that much worse.

Some people can probably see well enough to shoot those kinds of groups with open-sighted pistols (I used to be one), but as Felix pointed out there's a lot more to it than seeing.

I can shoot 1.25", 10-shot groups all day with my FIL's M29 Smith at 50, but I have to use an Ultradot. Same gun shoots 3-4" for me at 100, tried a bunch of different loads, but the bottom line is it has a 4 MOA dot, and it's damn near impossible for me to shoot groups much smaller than the dot.

While most of my shooting now involves open-sight pistol and levergun plinking at less than 50 yards, I have to use crutches for any kind of precision shooting because I developed Pars Planitis in both eyes a few years ago and the floaters and retinal scarring in my central vision make everything look like driving in the rain with no wipers. The red dot helps see through the maze of junk. I have to use REALLY good scopes on my rifles. I still technically have 20/16 in my dominant and 20-18 in my other eye, lot of good it does me in the Real World, though.

Even when I was younger, had perfect vision, and pretending to compete in BR I didn't have what it took to shoot tiny handgun groups, even from a rest. Just not cut out for it.

I know lots of people who CAN'T see well enough to shoot tiny open-sighted pistol groups and do anyway, they just use ZEN.

Gear

44man

02-23-2010, 09:58 AM

For you red dot shooters, 50 yards is easy with a paper target just a tad larger then the dot but 100 will be a bust with any paper target.
I find setting the bottom of the dot on a pop cans top will tighten groups. Seems as if I need a 3D target instead of flat paper.
A can is even easier with open sights. I gave up shooting paper beyond 50, just back up the can with paper. Find the color can that will show up or paint it, you need good, sharp contrast.

Swamprat1052

02-23-2010, 10:08 AM

I have the same problem. I couldnt focus on the front site and see the target clearly. My handgun shooting was terrible. I wear bifocals. My optomotrist suggested the progressive lenses on my glasses. I can raise or lower my head and bring the site picture into focus with the glasses he made for me. My shooting improved greatly.

The "Golden Years" arent nearly as golden as they are made out to be.

Swamprat

largom

02-23-2010, 11:00 AM

Dale53

02-23-2010, 11:18 AM

I added Red Dots to most of my handguns a couple of years ago. I am now "back in the game". I am having FUN again and it is wonderful.

I have lost most of the vision in my right eye (I'm 74) and have to shoot with my left eye. Frankly, once I decided to switch to my "good eye" it didn't take long to adapt.

Don't hesitate to go to Red Dots. The Simmons 30 mm has four different reticules and can be had for less than $50.00. There is not a thing wrong with them until you get to heavy recoiling revolvers (they are not built for anything more stout than a .44 Magnum). For the heavy hitters, get an Ultra Dot.

l prefer the 30 mm size (a wider field of view than the 1" type, and don't overbalance the handgun like a 40mm+ will).

FWIW
Dale53

Archer

02-23-2010, 11:30 AM

Getting old is a bugger! I just had a lens implant surgery
a few months ago for cataraks. It cleared things up
greatly, but I still have trouble with open sights. If
the sights are clear, the target is fuzzy, and if the target
is clear, the sights are fuzzy. At 68, I don't believe it will
get any better in the future. Just have to do the best you
can, with what you have.

Doc Highwall

02-23-2010, 11:54 AM

I will be 58 in April and having only one eye since about 1959 and cataracts for almost 10 years now I can relate to some of the problems that you are going through. As far as using the red dots try what I do, get a round black target that is about 2-4 minutes larger then your dot and hold the dot in the center with equal amounts of black all around it sort of like reverse aperture sights. Example if your dot covers 6" at 100 yards get a 100 yard smallbore target that is 8" and you will be able to center the dot with 1" of black all around the dot and if you have different size dots it will add more possibilities.

ole 5 hole group

02-23-2010, 11:55 AM

My eyesight is 50/50 – I either see it or I don’t. The following is just my opinion – the war department thinks it’s a lot of BS, so take it at your peril. When your eyesight goes to hell in a hand basket , so does your ability to consistently shoot to your firearm’s ability using open sights. Every now & then you’ll wiggle and wobble an excellent 5 shot group but mainly it’ll be a larger group than before your eyesight started to go “bad”. For the average rifle out there – a 2” group may be about the best that rifle can shoot at 100 yards with a rifleman. If you have a semi-auto, such as a BAR, then a 5” group may be the best that puppy will shoot at 100 yards. Take an honest 2” rifle and put it in the hands of the average guy and the best results may be a 6” to 8” group with the average group closer to 10” to 16” at 100 yards with open sights. Take that same rifle and put a 10X scope on it and the rifleman will still shoot that 2” group but the “average guy” will now be able to keep most shots in a 6” to 8” group at 100 yards. Mishandling your rifle and not doping the wind correctly can add inches to your group, no problem at all – sometimes many inches. If you want to take away one variable – wind – you have to either shoot indoors or get up early and be at the range and ready to go by 6AM – then you can concentrate on gun handling, sight alignment and load development. It takes a lot of quality trigger time and a gift from the Almighty to be able to shoot to your firearm’s ability, providing of course, that you have a real shooter to begin with, as most people don’t possess a “tack driver”. I know a lot of people think they have tack drivers but look at it this way – the barrel has to be very good, the action has to be true and the barrel & action also have to be trued up. Then you need to have it properly bedded – out of the box rifles don’t normally come this way. Now, if you put out the money for one to come this way – you probably do have a tack driver and all you need to do is handle the rifle properly and make the shots in a 12mph crosswind.
A revolver or pistol takes years of practice to master and even then you’ll have less than a stellar day on occasion. That eye/hand coordination and timing “thing” can raise hell with the X & 10 ring if you have it mastered but it can also make the X, 10 & 9 ring almost impossible to hit at 50 yards if you haven’t put in enough quality trigger time. When your eyesight starts failing and you just need to shoot small groups on paper with a handgun – you’ll probably want to go with a red dot and if you mainly shoot from support, then you’ll probably want to go with a scope. I just started shooting a scope from a benched handgun and so far all I know is – I don’t like a 2X, as the crosshair doesn’t instill any confidence in me when using a 1” square aiming point at 25 yards – I think a 4X will be much better at 25 yards and an 8X should be just fine at 50 yards. The 2X scope gives me better consistent groups than open sights but I think the revolver can do better and a 4X should prove it with my 66yo eyes.
In one post there’s a mention of a 45X scope. You might want to consider this – a scope beyond 24X may become worthless to you unless it’s a good variable, as heavy mirage can wipe out your scope. My experience with heavy mirage has been that I’ve always been able to shoot at 30X with running mirage and around 26X in the heavy “boil”. Some people can get by with a 32X but never a 36X or higher in the heavy stuff. Now with just a very light mirage, a 45X may be the ticket, as when you can’t see any mirage on the boards with a 30X – you probably can see a light running mirage with the 45X and you may have an advantage. I guess the devil is in the details when you want to put all bullets in one little hole.

9.3X62AL

02-23-2010, 11:59 AM

I've been dealing with a number of eyesight issues for almost 3 years now, and after a number of procedures and surgeries I'm headed to the eye doc tomorrow for new glasses to match up with the restored/improved vision. I'm pretty jazzed about the possibilities.

wallenba

02-23-2010, 12:04 PM

Wear bi-focals and no matter what I do I can't focus rear sight, front sight, and target all together. Got scopes on almost everything now. Sure miss those days when I could stand under an apple tree and shoot the apple stems off with my Rem. 514 single shot 22.

Larry
It's best to just focus on the front sight only. then if it's visable through the rear sight notch, it is lined up. The target should just be a fuzzy dot as well as the rear sight. It should be possible to 'interpolate' the three. You will be able to tell if the rear sight is too high or low the same way. This works best for me, dominant eye in line, both eyes open.

ole 5 hole group

02-23-2010, 12:15 PM

It's best to just focus on the front sight only. then if it's visable through the rear sight notch, it is lined up. The target should just be a fuzzy dot as well as the rear sight. It should be possible to 'interpolate' the three. You will be able to tell if the rear sight is too high or low the same way. This works best for me, dominant eye in line, both eyes open.

Ya, I've used that "interpolate" method a time or two and missed a crow at less than 50 yards last week using that method. Wasn't difficult at all - missing that is.

Shuz

02-23-2010, 12:36 PM

I'm another old geezer(68) who has found the Merit optical device to be very valuable. They ain't cheap, but I've been using one since my IHMSA days and wouldn't be without it!

Hickory

02-23-2010, 12:37 PM

MAMA & HER BIBLE

Four brothers left home for college, and they became successful doctors and lawyers and they prospered.

Some years later, they chatted after having dinner

together. They discussed the gifts they were able to give their elderly mother who lived far away in another city.

The first said "I had a big house built for Mama."

The second said "I had a hundred thousand dollar theater

built in the house."

The third said "I had my Mercedes dealer deliver an SL600
to her".

The fourth said, "You know how Mama loved reading the Bible and
you know she can't read anymore because she can't see very well.
I met this preacher who told me about a parrot that can recite the

entire Bible. It took 20 preachers 12 years to teach him.
I had to pledge to contribute $100,000 a year for twenty years to

the church,but it was worth it. Mama just has to name the chapter and verse and the parrot will recite it."

The other brothers were truly impressed.
After the holidays Mom sent out her Thank You notes.
She wrote:

"Milton, the house you built is so huge. I live in only one room, but I

have to clean the whole house.
Thanks anyway.

"Marvin, I am too old to travel. I stay home; I have my groceries
delivered, so I never use the Mercedes.
The thought was good. Thanks.

"Michael, you gave me an expensive theater with Dolby sound, it
could hold 50 people, but all my friends are dead, I've lost my
hearing and I'm nearly blind. I'll never use it.
Thank you for the gesture just the same.

"Dearest Melvin, you were the only son to have the good sense to
give a little thought to your gift. The chicken was delicious.
Thank you."

felix

02-23-2010, 12:40 PM

Interpolation opens the group substantially. Can only be successful when the target size and distance to target is commensurate within the error of the interpolation range. That's why I shoot beer cans at a hunnert nowadays. If they jump, well, that's a 100 percent hit with open sights resting on a car top. Sights are 50 percent blurry at a minimum. ... felix

02-23-2010, 02:11 PM

A lot of good advice here. I've been going through this process for the last ten years, and have thought about it a good deal.

I'm 54, near sighted and have astigmatism in both eyes. I've had to make a couple of accomodations. I wear tri-focals most of the time, but I had a pair of glasses made to shoot with. They have the arms length focus in the upper major portion of my right eye, (dominant side), the distance focus in the upper half of the left lens and reading focus in the bottom of both sides. This takes a little getting used to, but it works well for me using traditional open sighted handguns to 25 yards off hand, and rifles to 100 yards from a rest. Not bench rest accuracy, but minute of falling plate or tin can. Two other big advantages: These are ground in polycarbonate which is not readily available in trifocals, so they add some real eye protection, and being bifocals the lower lens dividing line stays low enough that I never get the double image which is possible with trifocals when the cross hairs fall across the lens line. They work extremely well with the higher power scopes.

I've widened the rear notch on all my self defense handguns, with one exception. I'm open to trying any of the newer sight arrangements, but I can't see spending the money to buy them to "try out". I own an Ultra dot, a leupold 2x scope and one of the miniature UD holosights, and they all work. I have a mounting rail for my 744, but so far I've put off using them for hunting. Maybe it will take a miss to convince me.

I have a merit optical disk that I use for load testing of open sighted defensive handguns. It would be awkward to hunt with as it doesn't stay put all day, and I find it distracting, but for load work it works.

I put an 1 1/2" bright orange sight dot in the middle of all my load work up targets. This really seems to help even though it's mostly covered by the cross hairs at any range over 100.

I use scopes on all of my hunting rifles, and I just don't take shots over 40 yards or so with a hunting handgun anymore. I think I'm about convinced to give up on my DCM, and flat top it. Maybe I'll try a couple of different apertures first, just to convince myself that those days are gone, but it would make a dandy coyote rifle with some good glass on it.

The only two guns that seem to have somehow transcended the decline of my eyesight are my M37 J-frame and my M67 Winchester .22. I suspect that using the same sights over the entire history of my declining eyesight has let me extrapolate a usable sight picture somehow. Last Sunday I was knocking bowling pins off the 100 yard rail with the .22 at about 50% success and tinking the 200 yard gong, (20" diameter), every time to the surprise of the mall ninjas at the next bench. I thought about the manhole cover at 300, but I'd have had to hold way over the top of the berm with nothing to index on so I let it alone. A guy can have a lot of fun on a still day with a single shot .22.

I can't even really see the bowling pins @100 with the eye I'm sighting with, but if I look at the pins and the backstop with both eyes before I hunker down for the shot, I can see the backstop with my left eye while sighting and I sort of know where they are relative to the other stuff on the backstop, kind of the same way I sort of know where the blur that is my rear sight belongs, if that makes any sense.

Even though I'm looking down the sights of the J-frame, I think I'm mostly point shooting it. But that seems to be more than adequate for it's intended use.

BD

healey55

02-23-2010, 02:53 PM

Some good responses thanks.

I can do 1 1/2 " groups with rifles on a good day at 50 yards. also.. depends on the light For the most part.. I am not seeing guys with open sights doing much better than me on any given day no matter what.

I also find the comment on "3D" targets interesting.. Never really though about it but.. when out plinking.. I seem to be able to hit about anything at reasonable size and ranges. So much easier to hit a pop can or even a shotgun shell than to hit a flat bull on a paper target.

My lenses are "progressive" I can find the sweet spot for about any sights.

I also realize that as we get older we don't have the muscle or breathing control we had.... Hell.. I can feel my heartbeat sometimes moving the sight around.

At 25 yards.. I just don't see many guys shooting 1" groups with handguns. What I see in a year of going to the range is guys shooting 4-10" groups or worse. Most act like my 2" or so groups are great.

I don't feel too bad tho sometimes because when the light is bad (sun in your eyes) at the range.. everyone there with open sights, including non glasses wearers, is saying that the sights are fuzzy.

healey55

02-23-2010, 02:57 PM

also.. peep sights work well for me. In a pinch I can use military peep sights without my glasses.

I can read normal print on a page if it is outdoors in the sun but not indoors. need glasses to read indoors. I am farsighted by the way.

healey55

02-24-2010, 03:34 PM

update.

I took my 4" Ruger redhawk to the range today with 4 different loads. All were 44 mag loads in the 245-290 grain range and 1100-1200 fps One jacketed load of 240 thrown in.

Using some of the advice here. I changed to a plain black front sight and took extra care to make sure the front sight was clear before the gun went off.

I fired about 100 rounds or so which is comfortable with this level of power for this short barreled gun for me. I don't think any flinch was involved. Most groups were a nice 2" with 3 or four into an inch or so and a flyer or two.

The best groups were pretty good. right around an inch and a half or less with 3 or 4 touching and one spreading it a bit.

It was overcast and there was just a light breeze. The overcast helped. I am pleased with these groups from this shorty 44 mag gun. I was shocked at how much better I could see the front sight without the sun in my eyes. this range faces east so if you are early you get the sun in your eyes.. I am mostly always early to beat the crowd.

Slow Elk 45/70

02-24-2010, 05:02 PM

Yup, if I'm shooting anything serious....it's scope or lazer time in my life, I can still blast a beer can and have fun playing, but Hunting is with scopes, Lazer for HD.

Blammer

02-24-2010, 05:40 PM

I can see good enough that when I'm outside I know it's raining. :)

Shiloh

02-24-2010, 07:01 PM

Not NEAR as well as 20-25 years ago. Not even as well as just a few years ago.
This is VERY frustrating for me. Iron sights and peep sights will one day be a thing of the past. I'm 53.

I told the eye doctor that I didn't see like I used to. He chuckled and said "And you won't" Your eyes are aging, they don't focus like youthful eyes. You lose flexibility in the eyeballs. His job was to keep the inevitable deterioration to a minimum.

Shiloh

RayinNH

02-24-2010, 07:51 PM

Once you hit about 45-48 the eyes start going. Hello reading glasses [smilie=s:...Ray

atr

02-24-2010, 08:57 PM

Im 62,,,,my eyes started to go south at 40......
shooting a pistol now with just the iron sights is a real challange and all my hunting rifle have scopes.
getting old is not for sissies

healey55

02-24-2010, 08:58 PM

Well.. I feel a little stupid after hearing the guy who said he used $5 drug store readers.

I have progressives and I can find a spot on them (as someone here said) that the sights are very clear. That is standing up and shooting which is what I mostly do.

I really haven't done much sandbag work in a few years and there is the problem. I first noticed it at a CMP match where I got real decent scores with a Garand until the last prone slow fire. I hit nothing! I blamed it on a rear sight that had lossened but now I am not so sure.

From the bench is like lying down for me.. If I crane my neck too much I can't get to the sweet spot in my glasses.

Today I piled up the bags really high but still.. probly not enough. The sight picture was pretty clear but I had to strain. I was not in the same position for my neck as standing and shooting.

I rummaged around in the drawers and such for cheaters I used to use for reading.

Sooo.. I go and try aiming in the house standing up.. no problem clear as a bell. try the range bag position using the couch.. Uh oh.. no matter what I can't get the same clear picture with my regular glasses. I just can't move my head enough at that angle to get the right spot on em.

So I try the various cheaters till I find one that has a nice clear sight picture standing up. When I found one, I tried the range over the bags position again using the back of the couch to simulate it and.. Gee.. the sight picture was nice and clear and sharp.

Feel kinda stupid at this point but can't wait to get back and try shooting from a rest with cheapo cheaters.

Not really a big fan of scopes or dots that take batteries. Might want one scoped bolt gun for the heck of it but I shoot mostly old military and lever guns so want to keep em iron sighted.

If I wasn't such a big baby about someone cutting my eyeball while I watched.. I would get the surgery.

Shiloh

02-24-2010, 09:55 PM

Im 62,,,,my eyes started to go south at 40......
shooting a pistol now with just the iron sights is a real challange and all my hunting rifle have scopes.
Getting old is not for sissies

No it's not.

Still OK with handguns, big change with rifles. I'll have to move closer and/or go with bigger targets.
It's coming

Shiloh

fecmech

02-24-2010, 11:28 PM

"So I try the various cheaters till I find one that has a nice clear sight picture standing up. When I found one, I tried the range over the bags position again using the back of the couch to simulate it and.. Gee.. the sight picture was nice and clear and sharp"

Glad you found something that works. That's the nice thing about kicking things around on these forums, getting different ideas!

DIRT Farmer

02-24-2010, 11:29 PM

At 60 my home defence hand gun became a 870 Remington, still like my .45s but common sence rules.

ghh3rd

02-24-2010, 11:58 PM

I'm 56 and this seems to be a common problem. Since I'm 56, I don't care (too much) about looking goofy with my glasses pulled out out about an inch from my face with my headset holding them in place. Seems to pretty much put the front sight and target in acceptable focus.

I finally have a red dot on my .44 Ruger SBH, and it's a pleasure to shoot without looking goofy.

Randy

Captain*Kirk

02-24-2010, 11:59 PM

First off...a big Welcome to the forum!
I would like to say my eyes started giving me trouble when I hit 50....but I'd be a liar. My eyes have been giving me sh*t since I was 10. I had glasses, but only wore them "for school". They looked dorky.
Until the day at 14 I was playing 16" softball, centerfield, stretching for a long fly ball that I knew was....somewhere.
It appeared, much like Halley's Comet, too big, too close, and too fast for me to do anything but duck. I began wearing them like a True Believer from then on.
My vision is not good uncorrected. I don't dare go to the bathroom in the middle of the night without them for fear of stubbing a toe (been there, done that!)
And, then I find out I'm left eye dominant!
Still, I get by. believe it or not, I was shooting better groups at 100 yards with my High Wall in .45-70 Gov't and open sights (buckhorn style) than at 200 yards with my scoped A-Bolt in 7mm Rem Mag. Why?
1) Recoil.....both felt and imagined (anticipated). Plus, the mirage effect in the scope.
2) Longer sight plane. This is often overlooked and under-considered
3) Patience. With a single shot rifle, you tend to slow down, relax, take your time. Unless you're shooting a timed match, there's no fire; no hurry. Slow down & reap the benefits.
4) Give peep sights a try. It eliminates the sight plane effect, because there is effectively only one sight to concentrate on.
On your handguns, consider Fire Sights or similar fiber optic sights. Again, th difference, especially in fading light, is phenomenal.
Improvise, adapt, overcome. Best of luck!

Doc Highwall

02-25-2010, 01:49 PM

Captain*Kirk, it is not uncommon for people to shoot better with peep sights then a scope. The reason is when you are using a scope your wiggle/shaking is magnified times the power you are using and you are trying to over-correct. If you practice off hand with a high power scope and then shoot with iron sights it makes it look a lot steadier.

healey55

02-25-2010, 01:59 PM

thanks captn... On the recoil thing.. I am, like everyone else, prone to flinch after the gun starts biting me. I admit that I can take less of it now than when I was younger. hell.. my SBH use to make me bleed after a couple hundred rounds and I still didn't flinch... now? 100 rounds of heavy 44 mag tops.

I do like peep sights on rifles. I have military guns like the Garand and What I like is that even without glasses.. I can shoot the thing in a pinch. I am farsighted.

Longer sight plane? not much hope for my 4" 44 mags but yeah.. been considering a good peep sight for my Henry 44 BB.

Thanks for all the help. LOTS of good stuff on this board. seems on some of the other boards all they talk about is why glock is the only handgun that should be tolerated.

On the fire sights.. Holy ****! I hope they work for you guys but for me.. they were just too bright.. like looking into a flashlight. One session in the sun and I pulled that baby off the front of my RH. I couldn't see anything but a HUGE red ball. I do like gold beads like on the Henry and I like the silver dot on the old K22.