.357 for whitetail deer

[JudgeBAC]

Is the .357 mag with cast bullets adequate for whitetail deer in the 100-125# range? If so, what bullet would you recomend for this application?

[felix]

I would limit the shot to 60-75 yards with a 160 at 1700-1800 fps. At pistol velocities, I would use a 41 mag minimum at the same distance. ... felix

[9.3X62AL]

I've done it (once), and the deer keeled right over. VERY close range from a tree stand. Bullet used was a Speer 146 grain SWC/HP, from a S&W Model 586 x 6".

I joined the group buy for the 180 grain round flat nose to get a hunting-specific boolit for game to the size of deer. Our blacktails and muleys out here seldom exceed 125#. Platform will be a Ruger Bisley Blackhawk x 7.5", and the boolits will get run at high velocity to stay hypersonic past the 60 yard limit I would place on this caliber. The Ruger's strength will enable safe shooting of this boolit at 1400 FPS--I hope accuracy results as well.

[6pt-sika]

I have two Marlin 357 levers that I would like to kill a deer with .

One is the 24" barreled Cowboy , I load that one with a 215 grain Lyman SWC GC bullet . The other is the Marlin 1894CP which only has a 16.25" barrel and I shoot a handload with the Nosler 180 grain Partition .

I've debated both of these in my mind . And personally I believe either would be ok out to say 60 yards .
However I have used the 41 MAG in a Marlin . It did the job ok . But I was not totally satisfied . Killed three deer with it and all three had no reaction to the shot .So I shot all three twice . And yes the shots were behind the shoulder where i aimed .
So my experience with the 41 has made me second guesse the 357 quite a bit.
On the other hand I've used the 44 MAG to take quite a few deer . Including one at a measured 136 yards , that folded at the shot .

I will most likely give one or both of the 357's a try in the next year or two .

[felix]

Somebody who is a hunter needs to do a test with 41's and 44's at 80 yards or so. We are talking 41's twist of 18 and 44's twist at 20. 44's at a slower twist should be a much better killer of deer, assuming the boolit does not drill like a 41 does. Want penetration? Go 41 with the current 18 twists. ... felix

[9.3X62AL]

I wonder at the lackluster performance that gets reported about the 357/41/44 Magnums on deer, whether from rifles or handguns. Granted, there is no way to reliably predict bullet performance--or, more succinctly, game's reaction to the bullet impact--but still, my ancestors harvested one hell of a lot of deer with the Win 73 x 44-40 that I now own, and its 200-215 grain .429" boolit/bullet didn't let them down. Two or three shots were sometimes taken, esp. on pest bears--but the system worked pretty well.

[Junior1942]

There's an article in the latest _Rifle_ mag, July-August, pg 24, on this very subject.

Nutshell:

357 mag 165 to 180 gr cast at 1,974 to 1,790 fps from a rifle penetrated 24" of wet newspaper and went out the back of the box.

357 mag 145 gr Silvertip factory at 2,052 fps penetrated 4 1/2".

30-30 150 gr factory penetrated 13".

So get a 357 mag rifle, some Lil'Gun and some heavy cast bullets and go deer hunting. If a deer is at 100 to 125 yards and he's either sideways, quartering, or facing you, shoot him. You'll find a hole in him on this side and one on the other side with lots of organ damage between. Even with a facing shot, the bullet might go all the way through.

[felix]

That's fantastic penetration! Had no idea, even when shooting mudpies at the riva'. Surely does not seem like the penetration as described in the article. ... felix

[Junior1942]

Felix, of note was the tiny penetration of the 145 gr factory round. A hit on a deer almost anywhere other than between the ribs would result in a lost, wounded deer. In the picture in the article, it just blew out a cavity. Bullet choice is the key to success.

[woody1]

I wonder at the lackluster performance that gets reported about the 357/41/44 Magnums on deer, whether from rifles or handguns. Granted, there is no way to reliably predict bullet performance--or, more succinctly, game's reaction to the bullet impact--but still, my ancestors harvested one hell of a lot of deer with the Win 73 x 44-40 that I now own, and its 200-215 grain .429" boolit/bullet didn't let them down. Two or three shots were sometimes taken, esp. on pest bears--but the system worked pretty well.
It would seem that if the 200 or so grain boolit in the 44 WCF at 12-1300 fps did the job, a 237 grain Bator boolit from my 357 Mag. Marlin at 1270 fps should also. Regards, Woody

[Junior1942]

I wonder at the lackluster performance that gets reported about the 357/41/44 Magnums on deer, whether from rifles or handguns. Granted, there is no way to reliably predict bullet performance--

Take a bullet designed for expansion at 1300 fps and hit a deer with it at 2000 fps and what happens? It gives "lackluster performance" on game, that's what happens. Like the 145 gr bullet in the _Rifle_ mag test, it blows a shallow hole.

[Larry Gibson]

Is the .357 mag with cast bullets adequate for whitetail deer in the 100-125# range? If so, what bullet would you recomend for this application?

Yes the .357 magnum cartridge is adequate. However you don't say what kind of firearm you have; rifle or handgun and barrel length. I killed my first deer, a nice blacktail doe, with a S&W M&P .38 Special with 6" barrel using factory 158 RN lead bullet. Of course that was years ago before I read all the expert advice on forums that it isn't "adequate". The .357 will do nicely out of a 6"+ barreled revolver, a 10" TC Contender or a 16-24" rifle. A Lyman 358156 cast of 1-16 alloy pushed to 1400-1600 fps in any them will do the trick. It will give you more than enough penetration in the size deer you mention and give some expansion also. I don't recommend the use of the classic "behind the shoulder shot". While it will kill the deer it is only a lung shot. To put the bullet through the heart lung area envision a soccor ball laying low between the deers front legs next to the brisket. Put the bullet through that soccor ball regardless of the angle and the deer will die quickly.

Larry Gibson

[imashooter2]

Lots of experience in this regard over at the Marlinowners.com (http://www.marlinowners.com/board/viewforum.php?f=32&sid=828d45b20de7bac076be196e516239f6) forums.

[Scrounger]

Yes the .357 magnum cartridge is adequate. However you don't say what kind of firearm you have; rifle or handgun and barrel length. I killed my first deer, a nice blacktail doe, with a S&W M&P .38 Special with 6" barrel using factory 158 RN lead bullet. Of course that was years ago before I read all the expert advice on forums that it isn't "adequate". The .357 will do nicely out of a 6"+ barreled revolver, a 10" TC Contender or a 16-24" rifle. A Lyman 358156 cast of 1-16 alloy pushed to 1400-1600 fps in any them will do the trick. It will give you more than enough penetration in the size deer you mention and give some expansion also. I don't recommend the use of the classic "behind the shoulder shot". While it will kill the deer it is only a lung shot. To put the bullet through the heart lung area envision a soccor ball laying low between the deers front legs next to the brisket. Put the bullet through that soccor ball regardless of the angle and the deer will die quickly.

Larry Gibson

Larry, please change that to basketball; I hate that stupid dull excuse of a game the Euros are trying to force on us.

[6pt-sika]

I wonder at the lackluster performance that gets reported about the 357/41/44 Magnums on deer, whether from rifles or handguns. .

I've used a number of 44 MAG rifles on deer without any problems . However I've yet to try it with a cast bullet . So far I've used factory loads and handloads using the Nosler 250 grain Partition as well as the Hornady 240XTP.
The 41 MAG I used was a Marlin 1894FG loaded with handloaded Nosler 210 grain HP's . I have since bought three or four other bullets to try in the 41 but haven't gotten around to it yet . I've also recently bought a Marlin 1894CCL in 41 MAG that I plan on setting up for cast bullets only.
I wouldn't say the 41 has lackluster performance on deer . However the deer reactions after the shot left a good bit to be desired . As they gave NO reaction , even thou they were shot behind the shoulder thru the lungs. Even recovered two of the six bullets that were used on the three deer and they had mushroomed perfedtly.:coffee:

[Bass Ackward]

I have shot .... quite a few deer with rifles and handguns. When comparing apples to apples, the handgun always put em down quicker unless it was a nerve shot. More blood, more quickly. You need to at least skin around the wound on both sides if you are going to turn in your deer for processing and look for blood shot meat around the hole. If there is more than say two inches around the immediate hole, your shock is too high and bleeding was probably delayed. Your observed reaction was probably nothing but a run.

You have to quit looking for a formula and simply check out results. If you line up milk jugs and can explode the first two and then penetrate at least three more, you are good to any angle in a deer including a Texas heart shot. Remember the chest cavity is air. Know exactly what your range limits are and reactions will be more as expected.

What I will bet you discover is two fold. First is that the minimum distance is farther out than you thought and the maximum is closer than you expected. Then have the disipline to respect those limits. The second is that your bullet was way too hard. This always presents long range problems. Too soft, is the opposite. Your minimum range moves out too far.

Refardless of caliber, all you have to do to know, is play the jug routine. There are other mediums ofcoarse, but I can't translate results for them.

[kenjuudo]

Distance and shot placement is the key with ANY weapon. I've dropped more than a few with a six inch .357 and a 158-180 grain cast boolit going 1300ish. Don't think I've ever shot one farther than 40 yards though.

Several hundred deer get killed around here every year by a .22 mag and a spotlight according to the local COs. They aren't armour plated.

jim

[6pt-sika]

Bass Ackward , I to have killed a few deer . Used everything from a 243 to a 416 REM MAG . However I have never had deer react the way they did when I shot them with that 41 . All three of these deer were shot from 40-50 yards . It did what it was supposed to ,it just didn't impress me with the way it did it :-?

[Bass Ackward]

Bass Ackward , I to have killed a few deer . Used everything from a 243 to a 416 REM MAG . However I have never had deer react the way they did when I shot them with that 41 . All three of these deer were shot from 40-50 yards . It did what it was supposed to ,it just didn't impress me with the way it did it :-?


6pt,

I understand. For me, disappointment comes from 30 calibers. The most deer that I have ever lost and have shown little to no reaction have come from 30s.

I wonder why they sell so many?

[JudgeBAC]

I should have been more specific. Handgun: GP 100 6".

[6pt-sika]

6pt,

I understand. For me, disappointment comes from 30 calibers. The most deer that I have ever lost and have shown little to no reaction have come from 30s.

I wonder why they sell so many?

I had always been more of a 7mm or 6.5mm person for years.
Had a Kimber 89BGR in 300 WIN MAG for awhile and killed a couple deer with it , but didn't care for it .
Later about 4 years ago I got a Stainless Model 7 in 300 RSUM now that one I like , killed a big 8 pointer in NE PA with it in 2003 .
Hadn't used the 30-30 until about 5 years ago .
Had never hunted with the 06 until 2 years ago and took a doe . And I had never used the 308 until this past season , when I took three with three shots.
So I guesse you could say I had an aversion to the 30 calibers. Now it seems to have subsided .
But that 41 even thou it killed everything I shot it at . It still left some to be desired . There were not any long trailing jobs , none of the three went over 25 yards after they were shot the second time . But they just showed no reaction what soever. Matter of fact two were shot while they were eating , they never lifted there heads they just kept on eating and finally laid down . All three were dead when I got to them . But as I was walking to them I expected them to jump up and run at any moment.

[Bass Ackward]

I had always been more of a 7mm or 6.5mm person for years.
Had a Kimber 89BGR in 300 WIN MAG for awhile and killed a couple deer with it , but didn't care for it .
Later about 4 years ago I got a Stainless Model 7 in 300 RSUM now that one I like , killed a big 8 pointer in NE PA with it in 2003 .
Hadn't used the 30-30 until about 5 years ago .
Had never hunted with the 06 until 2 years ago and took a doe . And I had never used the 308 until this past season , when I took three with three shots.
So I guesse you could say I had an aversion to the 30 calibers. Now it seems to have subsided .
But that 41 even thou it killed everything I shot it at . It still left some to be desired . There were not any long trailing jobs , none of the three went over 25 yards after they were shot the second time . But they just showed no reaction what soever. Matter of fact two were shot while they were eating , they never lifted there heads they just kept on eating and finally laid down . All three were dead when I got to them . But as I was walking to them I expected them to jump up and run at any moment.


6pt,

Well your success shows you the embarrassment I feel around nothing but guys using 30s. Hell, my wife uses an 06.

My results with the 41 Magnum were the exact opposite though. I thought it was one hell of an improvement over a 357. Of coarse, this was a handgun with self imposed close shots. I have no rifle experience with that caliber on game to compare. Reality is probably somewhere inbetween our two experiences. I say that because it is that same way with the hangdun / rifle in 44 Magnum. One launch system showing advantages over another at different ranges. All bullet construction.

I used to blindly trust manufacturers. How I learned not to was when I tried cast. Then I adapted to both conditions. As a result, water jug testing prevented me from totally turning away from using cast for hunting. Had I understood water testing years ago, I would have established range limits with jacketed too. It just takes the .... guessing out of the equasion regardless of caliber.

[waksupi]

I personally like to see an animal continue doing what it was doing, when shot. Why would you want them to take off? Veral states in his book, and in my own experience, animals don't panic when shot with cast. Apparently a comparatively painless death, which is good, to me. Shoot them right, and let the wound have it's time to take effect. Or, if you really want them to run, try hollering and throwing your hat at them, after you shoot. Then, you can get a little tracking practice.

[Bret4207]

I have probably killed over 100 deer with the 357 mag. Mind you, these were car struck animals. We used 158 soft point stuff, Remington I think. A head or high neck shot usually put them down right NOW! On the other hand, I put 13 rounds into the shoulder/chest of one deer, dragging his guts behind him through a balsam swamp in a snowstorm at night. Fun. I finally came to the conclusion that with the 357 I would either take a head shot or a high shoulder shot so as to break the shoulders if possible. Same thing with a round ball muzzle loader. The factory jacketed stuff was ok. I only had the chance (no one watching, heh, heh!) to try a cast boolit a few times, maybe 10 or a dozen. Using the mostly the 358156 and a couple 358429 I got complete or near complete penetration of the shoulders and an almost instant drop. These were car stuck deer with broken legs, etc and their adrenelin was up. On a feeding or otherwise calm animal it should work better. Range was under 60-70 yards out of a 4" 681 S+W. The deer were average Adirondack deer around 150-170 pounds IIRC.

I think shot placement is going to be the issue. Find your max range and try to stay at half that.

[felix]

The 30's have too much twist, like the 41 mag. They tend to drill. BA, the next time you are out with the water jugs (I am too lazy; not a hunter) take your 32 special (16 twist) out and compare with your 10 twister 30's. Do the same with a slow twist 44 and any of your 41's (not 10mm auto). ... felix

[357tex]

I am not real smart like some of the people here.Don't have the experince most have.But the one thing I do know about is killing things with the 357 and cast boolits.Everthing from mice to 300 lb pigs.If you put a 160gr moving at least 900fps throgh the sholder and break the bone it will die.What it is shot out of don't matter,as long as you can hit it right.I have carred a md19 with 2.5in barrle in the hip pocket of my overalls for years here on my place.I hit more at longer range with my 6in ruger.But when your are working its hard to carry it and tools.So most of what I kill is with the short barrle.Close range with in 50 yards.Some real close smell its breath close.Its always got the job done.I even put down a badly injured cow with it(cost me money).The 357 works if you can shoot.Find your own limit and stay within it.:castmine: .

[Bass Ackward]

The 30's have too much twist, like the 41 mag. They tend to drill. BA, the next time you are out with the water jugs (I am too lazy; not a hunter) take your 32 special (16 twist) out and compare with your 10 twister 30's. Do the same with a slow twist 44 and any of your 41's (not 10mm auto). ... felix


Felix,

Absolutley. And you know my feelings on twist rates. But I .... don't .... think that twist rate alone can be blamed for everything.

After all, my most successful bullet / rifle combination ever was a 130 grain Speer out of an 8.66 twist in a standard 7X57 at 2700 fps. The whole family used that combo for about 10 years. If there was ever an over twist condition, that short, light bullet should have stuck out like a sore thumb. Yet results were similar to a handgranade going off internally with narry a single pass through as I can recall. Accuracy was embarrassing to report from $18 mil surps and certainly violated all the rules for faster twists. The only bullet that was more accurate? Was the 115 grain Speer hollow point which could be expected to blow up externally.

Makes one wonder why you walk away from something that is proven to work so well for you. Went up to a 7X57 Ackley Improved with a 10 twist barrel about 2" longer when mine was shot out that allowed about a 300 fps second increase in velocity and results were terrible. Had to step up to a 140 grain bullet that never again approached the same level of production. I wasn't smart enough to stay with the 130 and lower the velocity back down some and simply moved on to the next interest along my path.

My theory now was that the bullet construction on the 130 grain was perfect for the strike velocity / ranges at that RPM and we were lucky enough to stay within that window with the shots we took. This combo was successful on probably well over 50 deer with TV type foldups common.

[felix]

Yep, you are really looking fora boolit that does NOT drill past the point of interest within the target. That has always been a hunter's quandry. Blood trail or busted up meat. That has to be balanced extremely well to be 100 percent favorable on all accounts. Gosh, shotgun shell targets are just too easy to kill. Satisfaction guaranteed even if the shell just jumps a little AND not get "lost" for a follow up shot or two, or three. ... felix

[slughammer]

Bass Ackward , I to have killed a few deer . Used everything from a 243 to a 416 REM MAG . However I have never had deer react the way they did when I shot them with that 41 . All three of these deer were shot from 40-50 yards . It did what it was supposed to ,it just didn't impress me with the way it did it :-?

Do you want a "bam flop" and then have to throw away the front shoulder, or do you want to eat what you kill? I'm working away from the former and closer to the later. Just depends on how you want to kill them, there are many ways.

[Hackleback]

Shot two deer with a Marlin 1894FG using the new Speer Gold Dots and near max loads. One did the the death sprint for 30 yards, the other tipped over in its tracks. Complete pass through shots on both. I did get more meat dammage than I like to see, so I would consider the Gold Dots not the best bullet for the job. Next year I will be hunting cast with the 265 gr GB.

If one looks at the ballistics of a muzzleloader round ball load, it appears to be fairly anemic, though many deer are harvested each year.

Do I consider the 357 the perfect whitetail round, no. Can it get the job done, yes, within it's limits (all calibers have their limits).

As it has been said many times before, shot placement is everything.

Just a few random thoughts.

[6pt-sika]

Do you want a "bam flop" and then have to throw away the front shoulder, or do you want to eat what you kill? I'm working away from the former and closer to the later. Just depends on how you want to kill them, there are many ways.


I suppose what I'm trying to tell you I want is an indication from the animal that I shot it . All three that I shot with the 41 , I thought I had missed with the first shot.
And yes I have done the bam flop with a wide variety of calibers . The most impressive to me , was a large 6 pointer I killed with my Marlin 1895CB in 45-70 . I was shooting a 330 grain cast HP bullet . Shot the deer at 21 yards . That was probably about as hard as I've hammered any deer .:drinks:

[brayhaven]

The 30's have too much twist, like the 41 mag. They tend to drill. BA, the next time you are out with the water jugs (I am too lazy; not a hunter) take your 32 special (16 twist) out and compare with your 10 twister 30's. Do the same with a slow twist 44 and any of your 41's (not 10mm auto). ... felix

The general feeling on the 32 WS is that the twist was almost not adequate for the heavier bullets & marginal for the lighter ones. The 2 that I've had didn't shoot nearly as well as the 30-30's. That said, I still prefer a little slower twist on my rifles. Building a cast bullet rifle now on a ruger #1 action in 30 WCF with a 1-12 oct. barrel.
Further on this thread,. the .357 is fine as long as you place the shot right. But so is a 22 LR :o). If you don't, a .458 won't help. Karamojo Bell killed hundreds of elephants using the 7X57 (175 gr solids). He was a crack shot & knew the anatomy. I've killed some hogs & a couple deer with .357's with no problems. In a carbine, they are deadly @ 1900 fps. When I was a kid, I hunted hogs with a Colt Woodsman 22 for a long time killing 50 or more until folks convinced me it wasn't enough gun :o).
Greg

[GP100man]

A cold chrstmas day after lunch wind from the north, all cozy in a ground blind almost snoozzzzing ,borrowed granddaddys m10 heard an extra rustling.You guessed it,deer 7yds one shot,dead deer 10yds.My plan, also too GP100 6" 158gr.rnfp 1100 or 1200 . BE patient,let the shot come to you,& succes will be yours.M10 was 4" with fixed sights &std. 158rn boolits.

[Char-Gar]

I have a 357 Mag. levergun of one kind or another around the house since about 1962. While this round in a handgun has some limits as a hunting round, place the same round in a rifle and it is a whole new world.

The .357 Magnum out of a rifle will do anything the 30-30 will do. A long time favorite cast bullet is the Ray Thompson designed 358156. Cast one from air cooled wheel weight and shove out the barrel at 1.7 to 1.8K fps and you have a deer rifle.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Chargar,

Are you referring to the HP or solid version of the 358156?

Wayne

[Char-Gar]

Wayne.. I have both the solid and hollow point versions of that bullet. I like the hollow point, but it can be tricky to get the alloy right so the bullet does not blow up and fail to give sufficient penetration on deer. The extra 300 to 400 fpt out of a rifle barrel can get the bullet hanging ten on it's ability to hold together. It can be made to work, and it works well on "side on shots".

Shots which require deeper penetration are better taken with the solid and the solid also does well on the "side on shots". Not as dramatic as the HP but dead is dead.

All in all, A fellow is probably better off with the solid and an alloy like air cooled ww which will give some smearing and/or expansion. You are then ready for whatever comes your way.

[Larry Gibson]

Chargar,

Are you referring to the HP or solid version of the 358156?

Wayne

I'll wade in here with a comment on the .357 as a deer cartridge. The first deer I killed with a handgun was with a .38 Special 158 RNL Peters out of a 6" M&P revolver so I've always had no doubt the .357 is effective killing deer with in it's limitations. A good cast bullet out of a 2 1/2" barreled .357 put into the heart/lung of a deer will kill the deer, no doubt about it. The question really seems to be; how "well" does it kill the deer? We all have different expectations what "well" means. As with any cartridge some bullets will kill better (read that as quicker) than other bullets. I shall confine my comments to those which I have found to kill "better".

Caveat; I'm talking revolvers with 2 1/2" to 8 3/8th" barrels. Put the .357 in a 10"+ Contender or a rifle and it's a whole 'nother animal. Like Tpr Bret I've shot a lot of injured deer (numerous elk also) as an LEO In NE Oregon. I used a lot of different handgun cartridges with different bullets and barrel lengths. I used to carry some guns/ammo around just for killing the injured deer to see the results. I've had good success (deer was killed quick) and I've had bad success (deer took longer to die or took more bullets) but the key word is "success". All the deer I've shot with the .357 Magnum (injured or hunted) were killed by it.

Upsetting as it might be to some here I recommend 125 jacket SP/HPs driven fast in .357s with 2 1/2 to 6" barrels. Velocity should be 1400-1700 fps. Factory Winchester 125 and Federal 125 HPs will make the grade in 4-6" barrels. I use a 125 FP/XTP at 1690 fps out of my 6" Ruger Security Six, it is deadly. Yes a good cast bullet will kill deer in 2 1/2-4" barreled .357s but the 125 JSP/HPs will do it better. Since I do not do Texas Heart Shots I've never had a problem with penetration, even a severe quartering rib shot, using the 125s on deer. They all penetrated to the vitals with most being through and through regardless.

Now, on to a discussion of effective cast bullets in 6 - 8 3/8" barreled .357s. There are numerous 150-170 gr moulds that are effective. I have three basic criteria; the bullet must at least be a good SWC, must have a GC and must be driven to a minimum of 1400 fps. I have used a 358429 HP and 358477 HP with reasonable success but like all plain base bullets they must be cast hard to be driven that fast and this does not make the HP that effective. Yes we can depend on the meplat for killing power but a good SWC with HP that gives reasonable expnsion kills better.

Thus I have found the 358156 HP to be the most effective .357 cast bullet. I cast them of .22LR lead recovered from indoor ranges. It has sufficient antimony and arsenic to allow hardening when water quenched from the mould. Hard chilled shot (3-5% antimony) works just as well. Such bullets cast of this alloy and hardened still are very maleable at impact and do not shatter or shear like WWs or #2 alloys. I cast the 358156s with a double cavity mould and water quench them. A Hornady GC is seated and they are lubed in a .359" H die which doesn't size them. After the cartridge is loaded I HP them 1/8" deep with the HP tool for a Forster trimmer. If a HP mould is used I like to shorten the HP stem so not more than 1/4" HP is made. This makes for good expansion and little shearing. The Forster HP isn't as deep as it is a larger width wise than a regular HP mould stem. When driven to 1450-1500 fps from 6 - 8 3/8" barreled revolvers these 358156 HPs are very deadly with a heart/lung shot on deer. I have recovered very few but the wound channels indicate excellent expansion and performance. Meat damage is about that of .44/.45 SWC punching through. You might say; well just use a .44/.45 then. Well I do that too but this discussion is on the .357 killing deer.

I have no real favorite revolver cartridge for deer. Since I use them as "issued" with the iron sights I restrict myself to 50 - 60 yards max. I use the .357, .41, .44, .45 ACP/AR and .45 Colt. If I am purposely hunting deer load them with the loads that will kill the best. However, if in an emergency situation I have to kill a deer with handgun it will most likely be with what I most often carry in my hand guns. That is 99% of the time a cast SWC at 1350+ fps in the magnums and 900 to 1050 fps in the others. I have faith the bullet will do the job if I do mine.

Larry Gibson

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
We had a thread on thison the wheelgun section.
The 357 will do the job !
But a man has to stay in his limitaions.
Bullet placement is the key.

[9.3X62AL]

Larry Gibson obliquely hit upon a facet of this discussion that I would like to pursue at length once the Lee/357 Maximum/180 grain boolit is in hand, and with the Lyman #358156. With the gas check to "cheat" with, softer alloys driven at faster velocities become possible.

I currently run the #358156 well past 1500 FPS in the Bisley Blackhawk, and accuracy remains constant from 1200 FPS forward. Slug alloy is 92/6/2. If softer alloys--say, WW or WW/lead @ 50/50 provided similar accuracy and enhanced expansion potential, I think a net gain could be realized. After the 180 grainer arrives, I think some tactical casting to get metallurgy tweaks might be in order with the 180 RFN/GC and the #358156. I guess what it boils down to is diluting the antimony--a little tin to make things flow nicely might be a good thing, too.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Great thread here. I've been over here in Iraq for nearly two years and have learned a TON about casting and cast bullets! When I get home this fall, I intend to start my OJT in the casting world. As for using a .357, I've killed a couple of Texas deer with a 4" Model 19 and the Winchester 145 STHP. The deer were very impressed and died quickly. When I saw one of the first posts in this thread that indicated the STHP was a short penetrator, I was shocked but then noted it came from a rifle, not a revolver. My experience on the deer with that round was very satisfactory, with good expansion and full penetration. During my LE career, which started in 1978 and saw the mass transition from revolvers to autopistols, we noted in the Dallas area that the 145 STHP was an EXCELLENT load to use on bad guys too...

[Larry Gibson]

Great thread here. I've been over here in Iraq for nearly two years and have learned a TON about casting and cast bullets! When I get home this fall, I intend to start my OJT in the casting world. As for using a .357, I've killed a couple of Texas deer with a 4" Model 19 and the Winchester 145 STHP. The deer were very impressed and died quickly. When I saw one of the first posts in this thread that indicated the STHP was a short penetrator, I was shocked but then noted it came from a rifle, not a revolver. My experience on the deer with that round was very satisfactory, with good expansion and full penetration. During my LE career, which started in 1978 and saw the mass transition from revolvers to autopistols, we noted in the Dallas area that the 145 STHP was an EXCELLENT load to use on bad guys too...

Wayne

You be careful over there. I spent all of 2005 over there so I know that "safe" can be a fleeting concept. Be sure to ask for any advise as we are full of it, advise too!

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Larry Gibson obliquely hit upon a facet of this discussion that I would like to pursue at length once the Lee/357 Maximum/180 grain boolit is in hand, and with the Lyman #358156. With the gas check to "cheat" with, softer alloys driven at faster velocities become possible.

I currently run the #358156 well past 1500 FPS in the Bisley Blackhawk, and accuracy remains constant from 1200 FPS forward. Slug alloy is 92/6/2. If softer alloys--say, WW or WW/lead @ 50/50 provided similar accuracy and enhanced expansion potential, I think a net gain could be realized. After the 180 grainer arrives, I think some tactical casting to get metallurgy tweaks might be in order with the 180 RFN/GC and the #358156. I guess what it boils down to is diluting the antimony--a little tin to make things flow nicely might be a good thing, too.

Deputy Al

It is written that it is the antimony plus a tudge of arsenic that causes hardening but lets the alloy remain ductile (SP?) and expand instead of shatter. When we add tin we make it into a much more brittle alloy condusive to shattering. I had hunted with several differant lead/tin/antimony alloys of varying degree and hardness over the years. I never really got what I considered to be good expansion. With softer such alloys in HP bullets the front of the bullets always shattered off leaving just the back end of the bullet. With FN/SWC bullets if there was expansion the petals would shear off instead of rolling back.

Can't remember where I first read about using recovered 22LR lead which has a small amount of antimony in it only. It was claimed this is what hardens the bullet and admonished not to add any tin what so ever. I just happened to have some reclaimed 22LR lead and gave it a try with my 31141 HP (shortened HP stem) in the 30-30. I cast them hot and water quenched them. I shot them side by side with a soft solder/lead alloyed 31141 HP and a air cooled WW 31141 HP into water soaked newsprint at 50 yards. I don't have the exact load here but recall the velocity was right at 2000 fps. the nose sheared off the WW bullet and it had the deepest penetration. The nose had sheared off the solder/lead bullet but it sjhowed a wider cavity and was a couple inches short of the WW bullet. The hardened 22LR alloy 31141 HP bullet expanded nicely, had the widest cavity, retained the most weight and penetrated the least.

Since that test I have also used magnum shot (lead + 3-5% antimony) with several different cast bullets. I have found as you have that accuracy is good at 1400+ fps in magnum revolvers and with a good swc expansion is also good out to 50 yards. The Lee 458-500 FPGC bullet cast of 22LR and water quenched out of my bolt action 45-70 at 1700 fps so far has proved to be a devestaing hunting load. Wish I had got into the gp buy on the 180 gr RFN/GC .358 bullet for use in my M91 Argie converted to .35 Remington as I think it will be an excellent candidate for just such an alloy. But also, I did not.

Further testing remains to be done.

Larry Gibson

[Bass Ackward]

Hard chilled shot (3-5% antimony) works just as well. Such bullets cast of this alloy and hardened still are very maleable at impact and do not shatter or shear like WWs or #2 alloys. Larry Gibson


Larry,

You need to change the filters on that M17 Protective Mask there buddy. Let in a little more O2 :grin:

WW are 2% - 4% antimony these days. Same as the chilled shot. The chilled shot has a higher arsenic content which causes cracking. And you prefer that stuff?

Strange how people get different results. That's why we can't come up with rules.

Are you pushing to get my handle? :grin:

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,

You need to change the filters on that M17 Protective Mask there buddy. Let in a little more O2 :grin:

WW are 2% - 4% antimony these days. Same as the chilled shot. The chilled shot has a higher arsenic content which causes cracking. And you prefer that stuff?

Strange how people get different results. That's why we can't come up with rules.

Are you pushing to get my handle? :grin:

Filters are new and other than the stateside gas chamber I never had to use the mask.

Yes WWs have antimony as does chilled shot but WWs also have tin. That is the problem; the lead/antimony/tin has the tendancy to shatter/shear when hardened instead of ductile expansion property. The straight lead/antimony alloy of chilled shot and 22LR lead have this property when hardened. NO TIN is what is needed. The arsenic content is what apparently makes the lead/antimony alloy harden when water quenched yet remain ductile for expansion. I'm not a metalurgist specialist but that's what they've written. I've tried it and it works, I like to go with what works even if I don't totally understand why.

Larry Gibson

[Dixie Slugs]

Interesting! I started hangun hunting in 1956 with the then-new Ruger in .44 Mag. Went out a got the famous (infamous?) #429421 mold. Loaded Keith's load with #2400 and started hunting. Deer and hogs hit well ran off. Had to go get the dogs to trail up. Problem?......over penetration with little tissue damage! Changed over to the old Speer half jacket and problem stopped. Much later read Veral Smith's workup on bullet design.....LBT's.
After all was said and done......it's meplat area for tissue damage in cast no matter what the caliber!
After having quite a few bones in my right hand replaced with steel......changed over to a slicked out 6" Smith & Wesson 686. John Anderson (former Rock Island Ballistics) and I designed a series of heavy bullets with very very large meplats. My favorites are the 180 gr Truncated Cone Wadcutter and the 175 gr Xtreme Meplat Cast. Since I moved over to the Smith, I have killed quite a few deer and large hogs with both. The secret is meplat area and a heavy bullet!
Yes, the .357 Mag is good for deer and hogs......with the correct bullet design!
Regards, James@Dixie slugs

[Wayne Dobbs]

Can you post some pics of your two bullet designs?

Wayne

[Dixie Slugs]

I have tried to attach the jpg's of the two bullets. I anyone is interested, I will post John's email address. I has a great alloy and the bullets are sizeed, lubed, and heat treated......Regards, James

[Cayoot]

I'm very interested!

Are these moulds still available?

[Dixie Slugs]

After we designed these bullets, as well as two each for the .44 & 45, he had the molds cut for his casting machine. He opened up Rock Island Ballistics and started shipping bullets. His regular job changed the hours and he shut down his machines. Plans are now that he will start up again with his six bullets as componenets under my Dixie Slugs Co. this Fall.
The 44 bullet called the Truncated Cone Wadcutter is designed to feed perfect in the Marlin 1894 series guns. It weighs 265 grs, which I have a found perfect weight/velocity combo in the gun. We spent quite a few hours turning nose shapes and crimp groove location for the Marlin. I tested the .44 TCW in my Marlin 1894P on hogs in South Florida. I bullet perform extremely well! Bill M on Beartooth Bullets posted that the .44 Truncated Bullet was the most accurate cast bullet he had tested in the .44 Mag. I know Bill, know how well he shoots, and the care he uses in testing bullets.
I have decided, from Gut-Pile Analysis, that the single most important factor for tissue damage when using hard cast is the area of the meplat! Weight is important for penetration, but I think it is overdone today..........Regards, James

[Cayoot]

So I take it that the moulds are not available for us to obtain. Which, of course, would probably also rule out making a GB out of some of these excellent looking desings of yours?

I probably shouldn't even ask that....but I gotta remove the final vestage of hope!

[Dixie Slugs]

I hope you understand that Dixie Slugs is also a licensed ammo maker and specializes in certain products. Our 12 and 20 bore loads are a re-introduction of the famous Paradox loads the Brits knocked over some rather large animals in Africa/India.
As for the bullets John and I designed.......we plan to put them in the line as components this fall. John may decide to offer them to other ammo makers??????
If not, we may decide to offer loaded rounds.......it all depends on the situation with orders on our existing loads.
What I am not interested in is competing with other ammo makers, and rather us staying in our little specialised procuct line. I will say this though.....any one deciding to have a mold cut.........set up as large a meplat as one can! Most of our production molds have been lathe cut by either Mountian Molds or Victory Molds.
However, who knows what might come up?.........James@Dixie Slugs

[Cayoot]

Holy Cow!!!

I'm sorry James...I didn't know you were running this as a business.

Nuf Said!

[Dixie Slugs]

Not at all! I came over here, not to hark a business, but rather that I am very interested in cast bullets! I am very interested in cast bullet designs that are to be used for hunting. We do a world of testing/hunting with cast bullets and thought maybe to be able to be involved on this interesting forum.
Regards, James

[Cayoot]

Well let me say "Welcome!"

There are alot of great folks on here and this place is a wealth of knowledge!

Glad to have you aboard!

[Wayne Dobbs]

Dixie Slugs,

That's a nice web site you guys have and I bet those SG slug loads you produce knock the snot out of whatever you shoot with it! Whenever you guys can, I want to buy a couple hundred of both those .38/.357 bullet styles from you.

Wayne

[Dixie Slugs]

Wayne & All.......The Dixie page is a mess right now! Shotgun World had a crash and had to reload the old saved data. We should have the page updated showing all our present products soon.
Anyhow, It is good to be here with a group that understands the use of cast bullets!
We are going to need some advice on .50 caliber hard cast bullets soon from all of you. We are considering a 12 ga sabot load with a .50 cal cast bullet. Any time we can help on a discussion concering hard cast slugs in shotguns......both rifled barrels and smoothbore, we will help all we can here
Back to .357 cast bullet designs......John is doing a shooting test now that will show the different size cavities based on meplat designs. From what I have heard so far, it backs up our thoughts on meplat area........ergo tissue damage. While no media really matches tissue/muscle/bone, it is a way to compare the design and construction of one bullet design vs another...........James

[Dixie Slugs]

Wayne and All........Anyone wanting to buy some of John's bullets before we get them on Dixie's web page........contact me at jcgates@bellsouth.net I will foward it to John Anderson.
Regards, James@Dixie Slugs

[BPCS]

What type of alloy would be preferred for the 357 Magnum in a rifle for deer, shooting a 158gr. load? I would assume straight linotype would give the best penetration and an exit hole at reasonable ranges.

[Junior1942]

Plain ol' air cooled wheelweight alloy works fine for me in my Rossi 357. Using Lee Liquid Alox, I push it to 1850 fps with no leading.

[versifier]

The problem with lino is the lack of expansion. .35 cal is right on the line as to it being an absolute necessity, but even so, the softer ww boolits with gas checks can stabilize without a problem at hunting velocities and they expand too. Lino makes great target boolits for rifles, especially for .30 cal and smaller, but it is less dense and the boolits weigh a lot less: 180gr in WW vs 162gr in lino (Lee C309-180).

[9.3X62AL]

I haven't looked at this thread for a while, I missed A LOT!

Dixie, I have a MM 9.3mm boolit weighing 270 grains with that same .290" meplat. I am hoping to take a deer locally with this boolit at about 1700 FPS--sort of a bolt action 38-55 of sorts.

Larry--my thoughts on the metal for the 357/GB 180 would be 1/2 WW and 1/2 unalloyed lead. That should be kinda close to your 22 LR alloy, I'm thinking. In the meantime, I might do up some #358156's in that same metal, and try some of BruceB's soft-point casting as well.

[steveb]

Very interesting. I havent takin a deer yet, but I plan on it using the C358-180-RF with air cooled WW. Lots of info on this thread, thanks guys!:castmine:

[Larry Gibson]

I haven't looked at this thread for a while, I missed A LOT!

Dixie, I have a MM 9.3mm boolit weighing 270 grains with that same .290" meplat. I am hoping to take a deer locally with this boolit at about 1700 FPS--sort of a bolt action 38-55 of sorts.

Larry--my thoughts on the metal for the 357/GB 180 would be 1/2 WW and 1/2 unalloyed lead. That should be kinda close to your 22 LR alloy, I'm thinking. In the meantime, I might do up some #358156's in that same metal, and try some of BruceB's soft-point casting as well.

Al

I've been reading BruceB's and the other fellows methods for casting the dual alloy bullets with some interest. I'm looking at trying it soon myself with some 250 gr SWC for the Ruger FT, some 358156s for the Ruger Security Six and the M91 .35 Remington, with 377449 in the .375 H&H and 458483 in the .450-400-70. I will probably try it with lead/WWs also. If I have the same success as Bruce then it opens the door to 311041 HP in a multitude of cartridges and particularly the 325471 HP in 8x57. That cartridge and bullet has become my favorite deer rifle/cast bullet combo over the last few years.

Larry Gibson

[9.3X62AL]

Larry et al--

Yeah, as someone already said on the softnose thread, it ranks as one of the really good info bits to come along here. I think the 6-cavity mold issue makes Bruce's method logistically problematic for me, hence the other route to expansion through the pre-mixed softer alloy.

I think this method REALLY opens up a LOT of potential for hunters using cast boolits of any caliber.

[cherok9878]

Plain ol' air cooled wheelweight alloy works fine for me in my Rossi 357. Using Lee Liquid Alox, I push it to 1850 fps with no leading.

Junior, is this bullet a GC and in what grain. There is a 357 rifle in my future and I would like to try some of your loads if, you don't mind. If you have time please PM me...........thanks............larry

[Dixie Slugs]

There is a great deal of discussion (and cussing) about whether a cast bullst should expand or not expand........Ole' Dixie will shy away from that one.
But, all the tests in Cody, here at Dixie, and the ongoing tests John Anderson (former Rock Island Ballistics) have done show quite clear the importanve of the meplat area related to tissue damage.
Veral Smith first discovered, by marking the meplat, that water/tissue was blown 90% to the bullet's path.
We also found that by making the meplat diameter larger, we could see more tissue damage in actual kills.......all other factors being the same.
As for the .357 Mag and the .357 Max.....the bullets I posted that John and I designed have killed many hogs and deer in both the handgun and rifle. Note that even the Truncated Cone bullet has more Meplat Area than the original Keith #429421.
For those that do not want expansion.......consider the bullet with the most Meplat Area.........Regards, James@Dixie Slugs
By the way......the upgrade on the Dixie Web Page is underway......jcg

[Wayne Dobbs]

Dixie Slugs,

I was thinking a bit retro with regard to both those bullets and wondered if you guys have done any work in .38 Special loads with them. I think the big meplat bullet at about 800 fps would make a good field and defensive load with that cartridge. Then I wondered if they'd stabilize at lower velocities. What are your thoughts and that of the board?

Wayne

[Dixie Slugs]

Wayne and All.....First of all I am new to this board, but I can tell you it is a pleasure to be here with this group! However, I am not new to cast bullets, having starting hunting with them in 1956 in a Ruger. I worked on Beartooth Bullts since 2000 and have many friends there, including Marshall Stanton. His bullets are "works of Art"!
Having said that, I still like this group that specializes in cast. Besides a certain amount of pleasure of making one's hunting loads from scratch, I am convinced that the proper designed hard cast is best for some hunting situations, like heavy and/or dangerous game in heavy cover. That is not to say that there have been problems with some of the early designs, namely over penetration with poor tissue damage. Even Elmer Keith stated in "Sixguns" that some game ran 200 yards before going down! In the heavy cover that we hunt in that might well had been load game.
This problem was corrected in later designs as we understood the importance of the meplat. We also learned what made some cast bullets brittle and break up on heavy bones. We also learned that we could pick up as much a 200'/" with cast over jacketed in rifles, due to the less friction factor (all other things being the same).
Now, John's heavy bullets can be excellent in the 38 Special. They are shorter than the old 200 gr bullet used in that caliber and stabilize well. One can use any of the old loads in Lyman, etc. that were used for the 200 gr lead. As with any cast bullet to be used in a revolver, the chamber throats should be miked and bullets ordered from John accordingly.
Best Regards, James@Dixie Slugs

[9.3X62AL]

I hadn't given much thought to using the C358-180 FN in 38 Special, but there's no good reason to not do so. The Lyman #358430 (195 grain blunt round nose) has shot very well from every 38 or 357 caliber I've tried it in. Even in plain base, it stays accurate and doesn't lead the bore in my BisHawk to 1300 FPS. Yes, I have some real plans for this boolit when the mold arrives, rest assured of that.