M1 Garand sighted at 33 yards = ???

[Van]

I remember reading somewhere years ago about sighting in an M1 at a close range (33yds?) and the fmj bullet would impact at the same aim point at 250 yrds or ?? can't remember. Anyone know? Also, is there a lead bullet and load that has roughly the same point of aim and performance as the fmj m1 ball or m2 ball?

[Lead Fred]

The first time I brought my M1 to the range, the old ranger master told me 25 yards.
Thats what we used. Seemed to work well out to 200 yards, I cant see past that with open sights.

Cant tell you about boolits in it, Id never run them through my M1.

I feed it what was designed to be used 150-152 ball.

[bkbville]

You're refering to the Battle Site Zero. I recall it as 25M for 250Yd

As for trajectory - different projectile weight, different velocity, different ballistic coefficient... that's not easy. Maybe work with a ballistics program and figure out for a cast with a certain weight and coefficient what velocity would be required to match the same trajectory, and then work loads to get that velocity, then hope they group, don't lead the barrel, and operate the action...

I think it would be a lot easier to find a solid 30-06 load for your rifle and work out the come-ups.

[sqlbullet]

I just cast my first bullets last night that are intended for my Garands. I am using Lee 200 grain sized 309. Plan is to run them under BobS load (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=312730&postcount=15).

I have no delusion that this load is going to duplicate ballistics of ball ammo. I gotta think if there were such a combination BobS, BruceB and Smokemjoe would be touting it. In any event, those guys seems have the knowledge about cast in the Garand

[BruceB]

"I have no delusion that this load is going to duplicate ballistics of ball ammo." - sqlbullet

THAT is the money quote on this subject.

With the sights on the Garand to help us, it's very easy to zero the rifle for any safe load we might dream up. Since the cast loads will not equal the service load for velocity, we have the option of using heavier bullets at slower speeds to get the energy level up...IF that much energy is needed.

As mentioned, find the sight setting for the standard jacketed load and MAKE A RECORD of that setting. When the jacketed load is needed, return the sight to dead-center and dead-bottom, and then count the clicks to obtain the zero.

Cast bullets as light as 150 grains function fine in my rifle. With speeds in the up-to-2000 fps range, these make wonderful loads for everything except hunting. I also have success with weights as heavy as 311284, over 210 grains. At 2000 fps with 210 grains, we are shooting the equivalent of the .30-40 Krag SERVICE load, and that's no creampuff.

Proper cast loads do no harm whatever to the Garand, or indeed to any other gas-operated rifle I've loaded with cast bullets. In fact, they create less wear and stress on the rifle, as well as being much less-expensive to shoot. Win-win.

Thanks for the kind comments. I'm no guru of anything, and I'm still learning right along with the rest of the gang here. Garands are great fun, and deserve our best efforts to make them shoot as well as possible.

[35 Whelen]

I remember reading somewhere years ago about sighting in an M1 at a close range (33yds?) and the fmj bullet would impact at the same aim point at 250 yrds or ?? can't remember. Anyone know? Also, is there a lead bullet and load that has roughly the same point of aim and performance as the fmj m1 ball or m2 ball?

My Dad told that in basic training, they'd take their Garand's to the 1000 inch range (1000 inches is 27.7 yds.) for an initial sighting in. Once sighted in there, they were on at about 100 yds. I checked this with a ballistic calculator and found it to be just about right.
35W

[Kraschenbirn]

My Dad told that in basic training, they'd take their Garand's to the 1000 inch range (1000 inches is 27.7 yds.) for an initial sighting in. Once sighted in there, they were on at about 100 yds. I checked this with a ballistic calculator and found it to be just about right.
35W

Never thought of it as "1000-inch" but, as I recall, in basic we initially sighted our M-14s at 27M which was supposed to translate to a center-of-mass hold at 175M. Never had any reason to check the numbers but it worked well enough for me to qualify "expert". ('Course, I'd been shooting the NM course, first with an '03A3 and later with a borrowed Garand, for 'bout 6 years before I enlisted, too.:roll:)

Bill

[Hardcast416taylor]

I seem to recall the Weaver scope sight-in charts that said 20 or 25 yd. sight ins for 100+ yd. zeros.Robert

[smokemjoe]

Off subject here a little but in the muzzeloading days when I built rifles the rule was a 13 yd. sight in, ball cut the same hole at 13 yds,would be a bit high at 50 yds., a touch high at 50 yds. and a shade low at 100 yds. But I still had to whole about 14 in. + high at 100 yds.
We have a 50 yd. bench at our range and I sight all rifles in at 25 yds. off hand, then to the 50 yd. bench and not to much change. Then at 100 yds., I always am using different loads so I never stick to the same thing ,90 % of the time they will be 3-4 in. low or high, But if your out at 50 yds.left or right your be 6in. plus at 100 yds. A lighter cast bullet load will shoot higher then a more powerfull load. Thats in my M1s, My 41 swiss, the bullets will drop alot more at 100 yds. than at 50 yds. Thats what I relie on when shooting,

[mooman76]

I set my 30.06 for hunting (a bubbed 1917 Enfield) at 25y and it's an inch high at 100 and dead on at 200.

[BruceB]

Performing a "short-range zero" is really only a short-cut to put us on paper at longer ranges. It is a useful but NOT DEFINITIVE way of getting reasonably close to a useful impact area, but it is not a good way to set the sights for longer-range work.

While we might just get away with it in a short-range combo for less-than-100 yard deer hunting, the only way to obtain a reliable zero setting is to shoot the rifle at the intended zero range and adjust sights accordingly. If the intended zero range is a long one, such as maybe 250 yards, it's also wise to see where the bullets will strike at other ranges after zeroing....try it at 100, 200, and 300 yards to see what's REALLY going on.

Short-range sighting is better than no target work at all, but it's nowhere near as good as doing the proper routine for a real zero.

[doubs43]

Of the many times I qualified on the M-16, the first time was memorable. It was 1967 and I was stationed at McChord AFB near Tacoma, Washington. The base was contiguous to Fort Lewis and that's where they took us to qualify. It was on a 1,000 inch range with targets scaled to represent a 100 yard target. The M-16 was new to the Air Force and I'd initially qualified with the M-1 Carbine in basic training. I always enjoyed shooting for free.

[bkbville]

The BSZ is set to hit a human target out to 275 Yds without any come ups; it is to hit in that range from head to gut.

[Duckhunter]

The second part of the BSZ instruction is that if the target is close (less that 250 ysd) aim for the beltbuckle, if the target is farther than that, aim for the center of the chest/arm pit. If you do this correctly you can keep your shots on the full target (groin to head) out to 500 ysd (a bit farther if you learn distance well and use the neck on the really far off targets and dope the wind well).

The other part of military zero process is that you aimed at one point and the strike of the bullet was on a different point. This is always represented on the 1000 in. target as an aiming point (target) and a desired point of impact (large X). Shoot at the target, hit the X, your good for 500 yds on a standing person (provided the person was still and the wind was not blowing gale force). The need to be able to do this is the reason for the M16 carrying handle (high sights)

[Mk42gunner]

This works because a bullet flies in a parabolic arc, crossing the line of sight twice; once on the way up at close range, once on the way down at longer ranges. The US Military first used the 1000" range, then further reduced the target and used 25 yards, (it is a lot easier to find a 25 yd pistol range to use than to find an actual 1000" range, or a real rifle range.

With M-80 ball from an M-14, sighting in at either 1000" or 25 yds is supposed to put you fairly close at 250 meters/ 275 yards.

The basic zero on an M-14 for starting out is eight clicks up from absolute bottom, with windage centered IIRC. An M-1 with M-2 ball should be close to the same since the sights are mechancally the same, except the M-1 is marked in yards and the M-14 is marked in meters.

And like Bruce said, after getting a basic zero at close range, verify it at your intended range.

Remember also that the M-1 and M-14 sights are supposed to move one minute per click.

Hope this helps,

Robert

[Pirate69]

This based on the inverse triangle theory and gives a quick way of getting on the paper at a long range. The formula is given below. First, determine the expect bullet drop at the range you want to be zeroed in at. Enter as inches in Bullet Drop at Target Range. Enter the range, in yards, as the Target Range. Enter the height of the sight or centerline of the scope, in inches, as the Height of Sight Above Bore. Output will be the distance that the target needs to be from the end of the barrel to simulate a zero at the downrange target distance. As an example:

Target Range= 250 yards
Bullet Drop at Target Range= 15.8 inches (M2 at 2805 fps & BC of 0.409)
Height of sight above bore= 1.5 inches

(250 yards X 1.5 inches) / (1.58 inches) = 24 yards. A 24 yard zero should put you on the paper at 250 yards.

As stated above, the two points on the parabolic arc are 24 yards and 250 yards for this example.

[Stoats]

The other part of military zero process is that you aimed at one point and the strike of the bullet was on a different point. This is always represented on the 1000 in. target as an aiming point (target) and a desired point of impact (large X). Shoot at the target, hit the X, your good for 500 yds on a standing person (provided the person was still and the wind was not blowing gale force). The need to be able to do this is the reason for the M16 carrying handle (high sights)


sorry, but the reason for the high sights is because of the in-line construction. You can't get your head down low enough to put "conventional" sights on the thing.

[Doc Highwall]

When I was shooting the M-14 with M118 ammo my 200yd setting was 7 clicks up from the MZ, add 4 clicks for 300 yards and add 11 clicks more for 600 yards. For 1000 yards I added 27 clicks to my 600 yard setting.