Could really use some help with leading

[alping45]

Not sure if I put this in the right place, this is my first post. I am a bit of a noob to casting and reloading with cast boolits and have been trying them out with .38sp, .357mag, 40s&w, 45acp, .45lc and .454 casull. I have no problem with the casting, trouble is I can not get rid of the leading in my guns. Thing is, I have almost zero trouble with strait lead as long as I keep it under 900fps or so depending on the gun. But I have not been able to develop a single load using wheel weights, either strait or alloy, without leading my barrels. I have tried adding solder to harden, and lead to soften. I have been quenching the boolits out of the mold, also tried air cooling, but not heat treating? Guns I am using are a GP100, SRH Alaskan .454, S&W m15 .38, SIG P220 .45acp and a SIG P226 40s&w. It seems that with the revo's the leading is closer to the chamber while in the autos its towards the bore. I have tried basically every pistol powder there is in varying charges ranging from very low to very high to try get the bullet to obturate, with no real success. I have slugged all my bores and am sizing my boolits .001 to .002 over. I have checked the cylinder throats on all revo's and they are where they should be, about .001 - .002 over the bore.
I have been using all lee molds, and have been tumble lubing all my bullets with the lee liquid alox, after sizing. Now that I think about it, I guess the lube would be the only thing I have not experimented with yet...? And just to see if the problem was my boolits, I bought some commercial hardcast 158gr swc .357 from wideners and get the exact same results in my GP.Can anyone tell me what else I am missing? I have spent a ton of time over the last few months experimenting trying to figure this out and am getting close to going back to jacketed/plated bullets.

[Blammer]

You need a better lube.

Also check the throats on the cylinders of your revolvers, make sure they are not too small.

[HangFireW8]

How much are you crimping the boolits? Too much can resize them into something suboptimal.

Have you tried sizing to bore diameter? There should be no need to go as much as .002" higher.

-HF

[bigboredad]

I would say the lube is the problem. I would try pan lubing them or adding another coat of the tumble lube

[LouisianaMan]

alping,

I'm pretty green at casting, too, but I went from WWs leading to little or no leading when I changed from straight LLA to a 50-50 mix of LLA and mineral spirits. It provides a far more uniform coating of the bullet, for sure. If a single 50-50 doesn't work, try a very light second treatment of straight LLA.

I tried these techniques after finding them explained by others, and it has worked for me. My .38s & .45s straightened out, and I was even able to shoot some marginally undersized bullets in .32s w/o significant problems. What little leading I had was easily removed with a bit of Chore Boy (pure copper) pot scrubber wrapped around an old bore brush.

Best of luck!

[shooting on a shoestring]

Alping45...if I'm reading you right, you get 900 fps and do OK. Also you're using LLA. Sounds right. LLA is good up to about 800 to 900 fps. I use LLA for some .38s (TL158SWC) and keep the velocity in the 800s. Works great. Same boolit with LLA in any of my .357s over 1000 fps...big time leading for me.

I use Felix lube (find the sticky for the recipe) for all my pistol and rifle boolits. Most of which I use LLA on first as a metal preservative to keep them from oxidizing if it takes me several years to get them shot up, then lube with Felix lube and shoot as fast as I want. Now I only have the one tumble lube boolit. The rest of mine have conventional lube grooves. So if you only have TL moulds, try a conventional mould, use Felix lube (or any good lube such as from our vendor sponsors) and I predict you'll find happiness.

LLA just can't cope with velocity over 900 fps in pistols.

[Dale53]

I have been shooting cast bullets in LARGE quantities through revolvers and pistols for sixty years. I have NO problem with leading.

When you discuss revolvers, the critical dimension is the cylinder throat. It MUST be a bit larger than the barrel groove diameter. The bullet alloy needs to be hard enough (strong enough) to resist the forces of pressure (light target loads can get by with softer alloy than magnum level loads). The bullets are sized for the cylinder throats. Right at cylinder throat size is good and some use +.001" over with good results.

I use WW's + 2% tin as my "standard" alloy for light target to 1000 fps with the appropriate powders for the velocity. I use harder bullets for magnum use (often WW's + Linotype 8/1 to as much as 5/1).

I get excellent accuracy to 100 yards. Most of my shooting, however, is with target loads at 25 and 50 yards. I expect, and get 2" ten shot groups at 50 yards off a Ransom Rest (do about as well off sandbags with a scoped handgun).

Using a Thompson Center Contender (scoped), I have shot groups at fifty yards as small as 1/2" off a bench (.221 Fireball with gas check bullets at Squirrel speeds). My TC .30 Carbine with 165 gr bullets at 100 yards (for Hunter Pistol) has shot 2" groups.

You are doing something fundamentally wrong (I say this respectfully). I believe that you have already stumbled on the answer. One difference between what you relate and my practice, is that I use a good, standard bullet lube with a lube/sizer. I am currently using Carnauba Red from Lars' White Label Lubes (scroll to the bottom of the page - Lars is one of our sponsors).

That would be my first suggestion - try a good NRA 50/50 Alox/Beeswax lube or Carnauba Red (my choice these days) and see if that doesn't solve it.

I have a good friend, who posts on here from time to time, that was using Lee's liquid Alox and having some leading in a standard velocity revolver load. At my suggestion, he switched to Carnauba Red and NO MORE LEADING.

Some have good results with Lee's liquid alox but I have seen some conspicuous failures, also.

Just a thought or two...

Dale53

[NickSS]

The lube is the problem. I use some LLA and a tumble lubed SWC from a lee mold for my 45 ACP pistols. I had some problems with leading at first but decided to double lube the bullets. This cured the problem as long as I was shooting at velocities below 900 fps. With 50-50 or other good bullet lube on my other bullets I get no leading to speak of only an occasional flake or two comes out during cleaning.

[alping45]

Cant say how much I appreciate all the input. Lube experimentation will definitely be my next plan of attack. Also been reading up and discovered I've definitely been using way too much LLA on my boolits. I've got few hundred boolits all stickied up, how can I remedy this? Another thing I read was to lube the boolits, size them, and then lube again? I don't understand, wouldn't the sizer just take the first coat of lube off? I've just been sizing and then lubing.

[Echo]

Alping45, you say that you size your boolits 1-2 thousandths over groove (you said bore, but I bet you meant groove) diameter, and the cylinder throats are 1-2 thousandths over groove diameter - so it seems that you might be sizing your boolits too small. They should be right at throat diameter, and the throats are 1-2 thou over groove and you are sizing boolits 1-2 thou over groove - see what I mean? They may have clearance in the throat when they should be a near-push fit.

[alping45]

I have to wonder though, why am I not having trouble with strait lead with the LLA, only with harder WW boolits? Heres a specific example I tried tonight out of my SRH Alaskan: .45lc case with a Lee 200gr flatnose, non-TL(all my other molds are TL) over 6.5gr of Trailboss. Bore slug's at .452, cylinder throats at .4545, boolits were sized to .454.
Tried it both with pure lead boolits and ww mix boolits, there was zero leading with the lead, and plenty of leading with the ww. I pulled one of the ww loads after crimping to check the boolit, still the same size.

Anyway, I saw online that my local home depot carries the johson paste wax, figure first thing I'll try is mix up a batch of Recluse's 45/45/10 concoction and see what happens.

[alping45]

I must have been typing the last post when you posted, Echo. Yep, meant groove not bore. But I think my boolits must be sized pretty darned close to my cylinder throats on the SRH as they will not pass through with just gravity, I have to give them a slight push.

[462]

alping45,

I"ll go out on a limb and say that your boolits are too small.

With pure lead boolits sized to .454", you said they didn't lead, but wheel weights sized the same did. Could it be that you need a lager wheel weight boolit ? That .0005" difference between the larger throat size and the smaller boolit size may be the reason.

The lead boolit, being softer, will obturate to fill the cylinder throat, whereas the harder wheel weight boolit won't. Since the harder boolit is not obturating, hot gasses are vaporizing the base and bands, and depositing the lead in the barrel. If you look at the cylinder throats, you may find they are leaded, too.

[runfiverun]

462 and i have the same thoughts.
you could try upping the load some also.
recluses lube is pretty good for tumble lubing.
i use b-wax in my mix of it for regular lube ring type boolits and swirl till the lube groove is full.
it dries dang hard but works nicely.

[Three44s]

I would add this:

I notice you are attempting to cast for many weapons.

I would concentrate on one or two and get things right with them. Too confusing with so many guns at once when you are having trouble.

Second, as mentioned by others ........ LLA is for slower velocities. And your softer slugs are likely obuturating while the harder ones are not. But by the time you get obuturation on the harder ones ..... the LLA is not up to that velocity.

I do have better luck with two treatments of thinned LLA than with one non-thinned treatment. (I use my LLA on tumble lubed boolits ...... thinned, two runs ......... with powdered moly added to it ........ and shoot them as cast .... no sizing) ....... and all at target velocities

I also clean with Copper chore boy, USP bore paste, whatever solvent I have on hand ....... AND post cleaning treat with CorrosionX.

CorrosionX does not hold a candle to the old Bore Cote for a "less" sticking bore treatment but it's the best I've found thus far.

I use USP bore paste as a mild hand lap process and while it's cleaning .... it's mildly polishing as well. When a load quits materially leading ....... the abrassive bore paste gets laid by.

I have not used the JP wax but I bought a tub and would encourage your efforts with it ....... as I plan on giving it a wirl soon.



Three 44s

[44man]

I had some problems with WW boolits and I think it is the alloy mostly. There does not seem to be a bond with the metals after they cycle them forever. A little tin should help balance the alloy.
With a gas checked boolit I found it really helps to anneal the check.
I make up an alloy starting with WW's and it works great. I feel WW metal is one of the worst that can be used straight. Nobody knows what metals find their way into them so the only good thing about them is they are either cheap or free.

[Shiloh]

Boolit size is king

SHiloh

[tall grass]

If you want a different lube and don't want to go to the trouble of making your own check out White Label lube. Bottom of the page and Lar's Stuff.

Jim

[kelbro]

Try the 45/45/10 first. It virtually eliminated leading in my SBH and I'm shooting 1200-1300 fps loads of Lyman#2 alloy.

[alping45]

Try the 45/45/10 first. It virtually eliminated leading in my SBH and I'm shooting 1200-1300 fps loads of Lyman#2 alloy.

Thats the plan. I'll report back with results. :-P

[MtGun44]

Please measure your cylinder throats and groove diameter and post, along with your boolit
diameter.

Bill

[alping45]

Three44s, I agree, I need to sort out one weapon at a time. For now I'll focus on my SRH Alaskan and maybe the P220.

I did try the 45/45/10 mix today with the SRH and the P220, I did not get to try too many different loads, but so far the results seem unchanged. Still leading in both guns. I am using the same boolits for each, Lee 230gr truncated cone TL sized to .454. However, I did slug my cylinders again and did indeed find that they are bigger than I thought. They are almost at .455, grooves are right at .452. And as 462 said, I did find that my cylinder throats are leading. So perhaps the entire problem with the SRH is that I need atleast a .455 boolit? The P220 slugs at .452 also, could .454 be too big? I've tried sizing to .452 with the same results but cant find a .453 sizer, maybe I'll open up the .452 sizer.

[alping45]

I also imagine I could be doing more to clean/treat my barrels? To get the lead out I've just been running jacketed bullets through until I cant see any more lead in the barrel and I've been scrubbing with Hoppe's #9 solvent and lubricating oil on patches. Perhaps treating the bore with some things Three44s mentioned would help me out also?

[HangFireW8]

To get the lead out I've just been running jacketed bullets through until I cant see any more lead in the barrel and I've been scrubbing with Hoppe's #9 solvent and lubricating oil on patches.

Hoppe's and patches are not enough. Firing jacketed bullets irons out lead throughout the bore, also the steel has to flex to let it pass and that can't be good. (This has been scientifically verified going back to the 1930's, see Hatcher et al).

I nabbed a genuine Lewis Lead Remover before Brownell's bought them out and jacked up the price. It's not hard to cobble up something similar. It involves dragging a brass screen (as in window screen) patch through the bore on a rubber cone. Some folks use a brass Chore Boy on a bronze brush. Some principal.

I also have an Outer's Foul Out but the LLR is way faster in a handgun.

-HF

[Tazman1602]

You've gotten some GREAT answers here man. One thing is that leading is NOT a huge issue while you are experimenting and getting things up to par so that you DON'T have leading issues.

Get some "Chore Boy" brand bronze or copper wool pads, you can get them at Walgreens or Wally World -- make SURE they aren't steel wool. Wrap a few strands around a cleaning jag, down through the bore a few times with hoppes number nine or whatever and leading is GONE and you can start over.

I haven't had great luck with LLA at all, I use harder lubes but I also push the bullet a bit faster -- you might try that with the LLA lube you're using just to see what happens when you shove them out the barrel faster..........now that you know how to get the lead out in a hurry with not a lot of hassles.

On the revolver throats -- you said you could push the bullets through with "just a little pressure" but is this AFTER you size them to your barrel diameter? If so you should be OK.

Heck man just keep shooting them and KEEP NOTES on what works and what doesn't and pretty soon you'll be like the rest of us looking for more wheel weights..................

Welcome!

Art

[alping45]

Yeah Tazman, I am very greatful for all the input I have received since my first post two days ago. I might have given up by now if I hadn't realized how much people are willing to help.

I'll definitely pick up some Chore Boy to scrub my bores with. May just order up one of the LLR's as well, I've heard they work wonders.

Back to the revo throats, I discovered that the boolits were not dropping through easily only because they had a thick (too thick) coat of LLA on them. Once cleaned off they will pass right through with only gravity, not what I want right? I think I'm going to cast some more up tomorrow and try them as cast without sizing.

[Tazman1602]

An easy way to check the cylinder bores (throats) is to take a fired case and measure the inside diameter with an inside mic or a caliper. The cylinder should NOT be SMALLER than the bore diameter (the inside neck of the fired case.....). If that IS (oops) SMALLER than the bore, then the cylinders will have to be reamed to a bit bigger than the barrel bore so the bullets are not getting swaged down before it hits the barrel forcing cone/barrel.

Object is the throats (cylinders) should not be *smaller* that the barrel itself or you will get leading but it sounds like you've already measured that one.

Art

[462]

alping45,

You're on the right track...fatter boolits.

[Bucks Owin]

Fit bullets to throat, lube with Supermoly, should be good to go IMO...:wink:

[alping45]

Ok, I had some progress today!:razz: I casted up some more boolits but was pretty bummed to find that the mold isn't dropping them as big as I would like. If I measure across the seam I get .453-.454. Accross the two halfs I get between .455-.456. So I figured I would try them as cast hoping that the cylinder throats would swage them round and expand the smaller area. Used the 45/45/10 mix and loaded with 9.4grs of trail boss and the first dozen or so shots showed zero leading!:bigsmyl2:

But after another couple dozen shots I am seeing some light leading starting at the forcing cone and going about 1" up the bore, and it seems to be mostly only on one side of the bore?. I am assuming this is because there are some boolits that are still undersize around the seam allowing some gas blowby in the cylinder throats? Is there anything I can do to make my mold drop bigger or am I going to need a custom/diffrent mold?

I also couldn't help myself and had try out some trail boss in 38spl loads for my GP100, and WOHOO I am glad I did! I ended up coming up with a load that is producing very minimal if not zero leading! I am filling the case with as much TB as it will hold without compressing the charge, as IMR says compressed loads can be dangerous, which is about 4.2grs. I am using 158gr hardcast SWC's from widenders, and I tuble lubed them with the 45/45/10 mix also even though they already have the lube groove filled in. The battery in my chrony is dead, but I am estimating there doing around 8-850fps, and they shoot great! I shot about 75 of them and had only a tiny hint of leading around the forcing cone, which is perfectly acceptable for me. I was so excited I filled up my loadmaster and cranked out 5 boxes of them!! I have shot probably about 150 so far and it does not seem to be getting any worse. I bought 2k of the 158gr SWC's before I started casting so I figure I might as well start using them up!

[462]

alping45,
Leading on the forcing cone and in the first 1" or so of the barrel is an indication of a skinny boolit.

Check the sticky on "beagling". It's a reversible method, using foil tape, to increase a mould's size. After it drops the correct size boolit, you can make a permanent fix by lapping.

[Snobal]

In the past forty years I've shot thousands of my cast bullets in .41 Mag and .44 Mag without leading problems --- but I only used enough H4227 powder to get 1,200 to 1,250 fps with #2 alloy and the old "NRA Formula" bullet lube.

However, in .38 and .357:

- I've not found a "store-bought" cast bullet that did not lead by barrels (I have not tried many different brands because my cast bullets work great).

Both Speer and Hornady 148 grain HBWC bullets have leaded my barrels - while my 148 grain, BBWC bullets made from my attempt at Lyman #2alloy from an RCBS mold only gives very light leading in the forcing cone (After shooting 50 to 100 shots, a pass with a brass brush and then a patch shows no visible leading in the bore).

- I finally ran out of my stock pile of of "NRA Formula" bullet lube (mostly Javelina) and believe the old Alox 2138F worked a little better than the Alox replacement. I could get away with one or two grooves lubed with the old stuff but now need to lube all three grooves with my RCBS luber/sizer (My groups are just as good as with the new as the old stuff).

- I have never "slugged" the cylinders of my .38's or .357's to see if they need to be reamed. On a good day from sandbags, I have had 6-shot groups at 25 yards that measure less than 1" c-t-c and most always get groups of less than 2". Therefore, I don't want to take a chance of screwing up a gun that shoots "good enough for me."

My guess is that a better/different bullet lube and switching to slower burning powders may help your leading problem.

JMHO - YRMV

[alping45]

Latest update: I acquired a nice RCBS 45-270-SAA from a friendly fellow member here, casted up a few pounds of ww and tried a couple loads today out of my SRH Alaskan in .45lc.
Casted with strait wheel weights, air cooled, weighing in at 271gr, using as cast right around .455. Lubed with the 45/45/10 since I can't find a .455 lubesize die for my RCBS lube-a-matic lubesizer.

Battery is still dead in chrony but velocity is the least of my worries at this point.

#1: 9.2gr trailboss(as much as I could fit w/out compression)
Shot nicely, negligible recoil, clean, but leading the first 1/16" of the forcing cone after 6rnds.

#2: 10gr unique- some recoil, clean, shot ok, but severe leading though entire barrel (I know all 2.5" of it?), but after 3 rounds?!

Next step: I pan lubed a good handfull of these boolits tonight with the lyman orange magic and loaded up a few rounds using trailboss, titegroup and unique to try out tomorrow.
Can anyone give me some other load recommendations to try out? I have these pistol powders on hand at the moment: Trailboss, titegroup, unique, bluedot, herco, H110/W296, AA#5, AA#9, IMR4227, Lil'gun, bullseye, herc 2400. I am using starline .45lc brass with wolf LP primers and have a good amount of assorted .454 brass primed with wolf SRM primers. BTW, I'm actually quite pleased with the wolf primers, after having bought them because thats all that was available, in finding that they are extremely clean burning and seem very reliable once I put a new hammer spring in the Alaskan.

[alping45]

Ok I tried out these loads with the pan lubed boolits, the unique and titegroup were leading pretty bad, but the trailboss had no leading whatsoever that I could detect. In fact, it cleaned the remaining lead out of the barrel from the previous loads. Why am I still leading with the other powders? I need some other recipes to try.

[Snobal]

alping45 -

You said that you have some IMR4227. Try that.

I get great accuracy with H-4227 and reduced "felt recoil" than other powders when loaded to the same velocity (per my chronograph).

Now the funny part.

H4227 never completely burns. When there was snow on the ground, I find unburned powder in the snow in front of me after shooting several rounds of H-4227.

Recovered cast bullets shot with H-4227 have "dimples" in their bases from the individual grains of powder. It appears to me the powder next to the primer pushes the bullet and unburned powder down the barrel.

In any case, H-4227 was recommended to me by my favorite gunsmith when I first started reloading cast bullets. It has always produced tight groups and a lead-free barrel for me.

JMHO - YRMV

[alping45]

I gave the IMR4227 a try, it was leading in the first 1/4" of the forcing cone. Guess I'll be sticking with the trail boss. Have shot many loads with it and still zero leading so far.

[healey55]

I have a lewis lead remover and it works. On my 44 mags I shot a lot of jacketed bullets when the gun was new.. maybe 1,000.. it seemed to smooth up the bore.

Some say that shooting jacketed bullets after a session of lead does nothing. Maybe.. Not in my case tho. Even tho my guns don't really lead much.. I like to shoot a cylinder full of jacketed after.

I can see the difference even tho, as I said, I don't get much lead in any case. To verify that it is not just "hiding" after the jacketed bullets.... I will run the lewis lead remover through.. the few flakes that come out from the gun that shot jacketed after lead are less than the few flakes more flakes that come out of one I did not shoot jacketed rounds through after.

Like I said.. it may just be my imagination but or just the way my guns are but.. It works for me.