Has anyone seen this before?

[senormik]

Hi all,

I gave my new Lee .40-60 Winchester dies a try this evening, with weird results. I lubed five new Buffalo Arms .40-60 cases (reformed .45-70 brass) and ran them into the sizer die. They ended up looking like belted cases. Not sure how to explain it. The die was screwed into my press properly so that it touched the shell holder at the bottom of the down stroke. The first couple of cases seemed harder to run through the die than the last three, but they all ended up with the "belt" at the bottom.

Wondering if anyone has ever seen something like this before. What would have caused it? They seem to chamber fine. Would there be any problem loading them up and firing them?

Thanks!
Michael

[missionary5155]

Good evening
Looks strange to me. I do not have a 40-60 but I know a couple fellers that shoot them and do not remember any brass looking like that. Looks like the die is NOT sizing all the way down evenly.
Do the 40-60 cases you bought from Buff Arms chamber WITHOUT sizing in your Lee dies?
If this is a single shot... why resize ? If you are looking for a good boolit grip you can just neck size for that.
As I segregate brass to firearms I do not full length size unless absolutely necessary. No single shot and no lever gun I own require it. I do not shoot absolute Max loads so my fired brass rechamber without a full length sizing.
I like Lee products but any company can turn loose a die that is out of wack. Take a good look inside that die under magnification and see if there is a "ridge" at the base of the die mouth.

[4060MAY]

looks like the dies are too small at the base

[littlejack]

Michael:
I have the same results when sizing my 7.62x54 brass. I believe it has something to do with the amount of taper in the cases. I have loaded and fired my cartridges many times with no bad results. Now that this has been brought up, I will call Lee tomorrow and find out about this. I cannot believe that with todays technology, that all dies would do this. I will get back to you'all when I get an answer.
Jack

[218bee]

Never seen that before it seems as if brass too large or dies too small

[Dan Cash]

Your dies are miss manufactured. Firing that brass with BLACK POWDER OR EQUVALENT loads may straighten the cases out but they are likely spoiled. Missionary has good advice.

[littlejack]

I contacted one of the Lee technitions today. He told me that the die probably needed to be honed with an Arkansas stone (or equivilent) to polish the defect (ridge) out of the die. This would be in the mouth of the die. One can either chuck it up in a lathe or drill press and polish it his own self, or send it back to Lee and they would do it.
Jack

[montana_charlie]

If the 'belt' fits in your chamber with no problem, the die reduces the case diameter more than necessary.
If the belt was formed by a thin 'ridge' right at the bottom of the die, I think it would scrape brass off of the case, and you would see 'filings' on the shellholder.
I think your die is simply too tight.

I can't find dimensions (online) for the 40/60 Winchester so I don't know what diameter you should end up with, but I find myself wondering if the die was cut to the specs for (say) the 40/60 Maynard. (I can't find a drawing of that one, either.)

Your die could be ground out to make the correct taper, but sending it back to the manufacturer (with some sample cases) is what I would do.

CM

[Springfield]

No die sizes ALL the way to the rim unless it has absolutely no lead in taper, which they all have. You are sizing 45-70 brass which is slightly larger than the 45-60 brass, so the last section doesn't get sized. I have had this happen with 40 S&W brass that had been fired in a gun with either large chambers or had a long lead in and the brass bulges at the rear. If it chambers it should work fine.

[littlejack]

One cannot size a case all the way to the rim. The top of the shell holder hits the die.
Jack

[4060MAY]

if LEE is going to fix the problem
just a suggestion but
I would do a chamber cast and send it to them, make sure they send the cast back
otherwise it will be "This is what we supply"

[Bullshop]

I ran into the same problem forming 33 Winchester from 45/70.
I was told to use Starline 40/65 brass as the web diameter was smaller than their 45/70 brass.
It did solve the problem for me.
In this case however the web of the 45/70 brass was too large to chamber in my 1886 33 Win.
If your re formed brass as is will chamber I would simply back the sizer die off so that as sized new brass would not chamber then about a quarter turn of the die at a time turn it in until the brass chambers with slight resistance. That will be the correct setting for forming and re sizing.
BIC/BS

[John Taylor]

Reamer print-
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l132/johnptaylor/chamber40-60WCF.jpg

[montana_charlie]

Going by the dimensions in John Taylor's post, that die certainly should not be able to make that 'belt'. The die should simply lose contact with the wall (of a 45/70 case) at a point ~0.2 inches ahead of the rim...at the 'n' dimension.
Those last two tenths should not be sized down at all...and that 'belt' sure doesn't look like it's two tenths (almost a quarter inch) wide.

CM

[Hip's Ax]

I had something similar when reforming 6.5 Japanese from 308 Winchester with a modified Lee die that did most of the work. The fellow that modified the Lee die told me to take some fine wet dry paper and knock the sharp edge off of the bottom of the die. Graf's came out with proper 6.5 Japanese brass just as I was figuring this out so I bought the Graf's brass and I never did sand the die.

[senormik]

Gents,

Wow, I'm blown away by all your quick and considered replies! Thanks to everyone for your thoughts. I tried neck sizing several cases, and found that the "belt" just got wider (so instead of nearly .25" it was more like 3/8") although the ridge of the "belt wasn't quite as distinct. I also resized an unfired .40-60 Win piece of brass from Rocky Mountain Cartridge. This is properly head stamped and supposedly turned on a lathe to exactly correct original dimensions. The dies produced just the same "belt" at the bottom.:cry:

So it sounds like this may be a slight problem with the dies. They do work, but the way they deform the brass annoys me. I'll try sending them back to Lee and see what they will do with them.

Thanks again.
Michael

[Jbar4Ranch]

No die sizes ALL the way to the rim unless it has absolutely no lead in taper, which they all have.

One cannot size a case all the way to the rim. The top of the shell holder hits the die.
Jack
Almost correct, but not quite. True that a conventional die won't size all the way down, but dies are made for 9mm, .40 S&W/10mm, and .45 acp that are made to push the case completely through the die to remove the feed ramp bulge, and then they are processed through a conventional sizer die to bring the rest of the case back to proper dimensions again.

[Timbo]

I have shot BP for many years, mostly in N-SSA competition. I have a large and continually growing collection of original black-powder military arms, mostly from the Civil war era through "age of transition" single shot cartridge arms. For health reasons I'm planning to get more involved in the BPCR competitions and have a couple rifles purpose built for this. I do not antiticpate any more support from the NRA for the many thousands who shoot BPCR competition than I do for the many thousands who shoot in the N-SSA. The NRA is and has been out of touch with these shooters, by design, for many, many years.

I am a member of the NRA and will continue my membership... through gritted teeth. The plain fact is that if you are not squeezing the trigger on a race gun and don't have lots of photo opportunities for the NRA elite, then the NRA has little interest in you as a member. However, if your passion is politics and your pockets are an inch or two deeper than most...

Their interest in BP shooters has always seemed to amount to a patronizing "isn't that quaint" program or magazine article here and there. Pitiful stuff really. That they think we are that ignorant is perhaps the biggest insult of all.

I was never as disappointed and angry with the NRA as when I discovered that they were offering little to no support of the Creedmore match. Disappointed but given their history of non-interest of BP comeptition, not surprised. I am disappointed that the NRA, who so willingly points to its "shooting heritage" and the Creedmoore match in particular when they smell a donor check, would just as willingly run to the nearest exit when the BP shooting membership actually needs their support.

I've told them to please not spend my membership dollars on trinkets; the key-fobs, refrigerator magnets, the "commerative medallions"; please don't spend my membership money on the endless two-pound mailings, the DVD's, etc. It's wasteful. I work to hard to see my membership donation wasted in such a way.

Why, maybe...maybe if someone lost the key to the warehouse where they store all that ****, there might just be enough money to sponsor a Creedmoor match.

Most sincerely,
Timbo

[montana_charlie]

I work to hard to see my membership donation wasted in such a way.
Did you drop your post in the wrong thread?
CM

[cajun shooter]

Very well put post TIMBO but I agree with MC and think you mis placed it. It should be on the pages of all gun magazines that the members are becoming upset and need to be heard.

[Timbo]

Yes, I'm not sure how I did this, but I'm sure age and senility played some role...
Is there a way to get this moved to the "NRA grievance Petition" thread? I don't know how to do that!

[Bill*]

Maybe you can "cut n paste" to the other, then edit (delete) this one?

[looseprojectile]

I live in an area where there are very few BPCR shooters though we do have a couple of champions in that venue. Dang little interest.
The local gun show always has a booth/table sponsored by the NRA to get people to join. I am not a member of the NRA. Though I have been a yearly member a dozen times or more I see no benefit other than the numbers needed for the NRA to use for clout when threatening the politicians. The NRA does not represent me. Sorry. The NRA has had some success but not nearly as much as the members pay for. For fifty years, in my case I have heard the cry wolf BS from the NRA regarding the second amendment and I feel they are not using their teeth enough. ['They are gonna take your guns tomorrow if you don't send a hundred bucks today']. Since the advent of NAFTA and free trade agreements The USA has been unable to compete with offshore products pricewise. I bought a #2 Mexican drag line the other day for twelve bucks --- Made in China! None available made in the US. This applies to guns also. You might be able to afford a gun made in the US if you planned for your retirement, I didn't. How is it that you can buy a semi-auto rifle for six or seven hundred bucks when a simple single shot rifle costs a couple of thousand or more? Small market niche?
Rant over!

Life is good