When isn't a shotgun a shotgun ?

[Johnch]

The answer is now , that is if it only has a pistol grip and not a shoulder stock

I was in the gun shop today picking up some decapping pins

As I help out from time to time
The owner keeps me in the loop as to the new laws or new way the BATF reads them

He showed me a pamplet from the BATF with updates and new stuff that he just got

One new way they are looking at a shotgun , if it only has a pistol grip
Is that it isn't a shotgun , so if you want to buy it
You need to be 21 not 18

Also if the shotgun comes with both a shoulder stock and a pistol grip
It also isn't a shotgun so you need to be 21


I wonder if this will mess up guys in some states with restrictive laws ?

I will get the referance numbers Monday

John

[DLCTEX]

Insanity reigns.

[dubber123]

Well, if it isn't a shotgun, it must be a pistol now right? If so, there shouldn't be a barrel length restriction anymore...

[eljefe]

A pistol grip shotgun is listed as "other" on form 4473. It is a new designation
that came with the most recent form change, which was made in 2008.

We were told about this during our last ATF audit. The rationale is that ATF
defines a shotgun as being shoulder fired. The new definition on the form
(other) is for frames, receivers and other types that do not fall into the categories
already defined.

All the Mossberg pistol grip shotguns I have received from distributors are marked
as being legal for purchasers 21 years and older. I don't typically stock any
other manufacturer's pistol grip shotguns so I don't know if their box
contains a similar notification.

[sundog]

The fox who is guarding the hen house gets to make and enforce the rools.

[deltaenterprizes]

This was ATF's opinion back in 1992 when I gave up my FFL. It doesn't make a lot of sense, but when did most gun control laws?

[JIMinPHX]

I wonder if this will mess up guys in some states with restrictive laws ?


The state laws operate off of the state definitions. The fed laws operate off of the fed definitions. If the fed definitions affected state laws, then places like NJ would not be able to make you have a rifle & shotgun card to buy a BB gun & would also not make you go through all the pistol paperwork to buy a cap & ball revolver (antique, not firearm under fed rules).

[montana_charlie]

One new way they are looking at a shotgun , if it only has a pistol grip
Is that it isn't a shotgun , so if you want to buy it
You need to be 21 not 18
If one were to apply logic to that change, he would then assume the pistol-grip-only configuration is actually a pistol...therefore the change in age requirement.

As a pistol...the barrel(s) could be pretty dang short, no?


Also if the shotgun comes with both a shoulder stock and a pistol grip
It also isn't a shotgun so you need to be 21
That one defys logic because the ubiquitous 870 Remington (for example) is no longer a shotgun.

I have a feeling we don't have the whole story...

CM

[deltaenterprizes]

Under Federal law any smooth bore must have a minimum barrel length of 18'' or it is a Class 3 weapon and requires a $200 tax stamp to manufacture and then a $5 transfer if sold. The required Federal paperwork is the same as for a machine gun or supressor and requires the signature of the Chief LEO of the political subdivision.
Unless it was manufactured or is a replica of a firearm manufactured before 1898. The LeMat fits into this category.

[eljefe]

deltaenterprises, what you are describing is an AOW, which differs in definition
and tax stamp cost from a short barreled shotgun or weapon made from shotgun.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf


Getting back to the original post, the reason that a pistol grip shotgun is not
listed as "long gun" is because of the definition by atf. A long gun is either
a shotgun or rifle that is not a NFA firearm.

A shotgun, by atf definition, is a shoulder fired smoothbore firearm. Since a pistol grip does not enable one
to shoulder fire it, is has to be defined elsewhere.

The pistolgrip equipped shotgun is also not a pistol. since atf defines a handgun as being designed and capable of firing with one hand.

We were told by our field agent that the recent change has brought this issue
to the forefront, since the new choice of other is now available on form 4473.
He also indicated that it was a very common error to list pg shotguns as long
guns in the past. I did not get the impression that it is a very significant change.

[montana_charlie]

I have one of these http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=84990 which I inherited from my Dad.
It is easily fired with one hand...and that's a good thing because the 'shoulder stock' is way too short for shooting from the shoulder.

My age is no issue, but how would ATF classify this 'shotgun'?

CM

[oneokie]

My age is no issue, but how would ATF classify this 'shotgun'?

CM

With an 18.5 inch barrel and an overall length of of 29 inches, it would be a shotgun.

If it were less than 18" barrel and OAL of less than 26" it would be an AOW.

[jdgabbard]

So how does this affect someone that has a Mossberg 590, and decides to take the stock off and put a pistol grip on?

[Johnch]

So how does this affect someone that has a Mossberg 590, and decides to take the stock off and put a pistol grip on?


Not at all IMO since you all ready own it

It just afects a 18 - 20 year old that wants one

John

[oneokie]

So how does this affect someone that has a Mossberg 590, and decides to take the stock off and put a pistol grip on?

If the overall length after was 26" or less, I would not let anyone know about it.

[bohokii]

a shotgun is a cartridge firing smooth bore shoulder fired long arm

if it is not shoulder fired from the factory it was never shoulder fired if you take off the buttstock and add a pistol grip it does not become this other thing that the atf calls it

which is why you can see all kinds of sawed off shotguns going for only a $5 tax stamp as opposed to the $200 for a sawed off shotgun because they came from the factory with the pistol grip and were not technically a shotgun since its creation

as to the misnomer "stripped" receiver meaning a bare receiver that was never assembled
according to the atf it isnt a rifle or a pistol untill it is assembled as one

which theoretically allows one to assemble up a pistol from say a "naked ar-lower "

but if it is assembled into a rifle it cant ever be a pistol even if you assembled it into a pistol first

which is kind of scary thinking about the mech tech carbine conversion unit if you use it and revert back you just created a "short barrel rifle" and if you ever sell that what you think is a pistol to someone else they are now in possession of a short barrel rifle

i'm not quite sure what they want to call the butstockless longarm someone told me to call them an "other" but that confuses up with the $5 any other weapon tax stamp

i guess there are 2 of them the "others" and the "any others"

[sheepdog]

Not at all IMO since you all ready own it

It just afects a 18 - 20 year old that wants one

John

So by that rational if an 18 buys a shotgun legal then you sell him the pistol grips didn't you just sell the equivalent of a pistol to a minor. :confused:

See this is what happens when non-elected bureaucrats rule your life with the wag of a pen.

[BOOM BOOM]

Hi,
another case of how *********t our government is.

[Adam10mm]

So by that rational if an 18 buys a shotgun legal then you sell him the pistol grips didn't you just sell the equivalent of a pistol to a minor. :confused:

No, because the law only applies to an FFL selling to customers (aka 4473 customers).

You can buy a pistol grip only shotgun from a private party at 18yo but you can't buy it from an FFL until you are 21yo.

This law is not new it's been around for several years and is the exact same law as the one that says you have to be 21 to buy a handgun from a dealer. The law states you as a licensed dealer, manufacturer, or importer cannot sell a firearm other than a rifle or shotgun to anyone under the age of 21.

What does this cover exactly? Simple: All NFA weapons, all handguns (pistols and revolvers), crew served small arms (Browning 1919, RPK, etc), weapons that are not fired from the shoulder, as well as frames or receivers. You can't buy any of those from an FFL unless you are 21yo. They are still firearms by definition found in 27 CFR 478.11 but since they are not specifically a "rifle" or "shotgun" as defined in aforementioned statute, you must be 21yo or older to buy them from an FFL. You cannot buy a bare AR15 receiver from an FFL unless you are 21 because it's not a rifle or shotgun, it's a receiver and you need to be a resident of that state to buy on a 4473 as well as meet the age requirements.

I ran into this before. WI resident wants to buy a receiver from me. He's 21yo but not a MI resident. It's not a long gun, so no go. Has to be sent to a WI FFL for transfer to him or he has to become a MI resident for me to transfer it to him in MI.